Who's going to save public education?

[mia]

For what it's worth, I taught in private schools for over 20 years, and have been a teacher with the public schools for the last 15. I love teaching and would like to rejoin the public schools as an assistant teacher after I retire. There is so much to love about teaching, but behavior problems in the public schools are spinning out of control.

I would rather teach a class of 50 students on my own in a one room school house than have a small high-tech classroom of 18 with one student with behavior problems. That child introduces the others to behaviors that the others would never have dreamed of. Sometimes a classroom will have several of these students in any given year.

Believe me, one out-of-control student completely undermines the learning process for everyone in the classroom. It takes months of documentation, meetings, etc... to have a student evaluated and moved to a more suitable setting. Most often these kids need medication or some type of family therapy and the parents refuse, so the student is transferred to another classroom and the chaos begins in one more classroom.

In private schools, the parents of these students are invited to take their money elsewhere. Charter schools can eventually send these students back into traditional public school settings, where they continue to disrupt the learning process for everyone.

No wonder parents are moving their students to charter schools. Responsible parents will always do what is best for their children, including raising them to respect the rights of others, and not allowing them to misbehave in school. They will not tolerate their children being subjected to a chaotic learning atmosphere, where students are allowed to run the show. Eventually, all that will be left in the public schools will be those students whose parents will not or don't know how to raise responsible children. How will these kids, who never learned that school is important, survive as adults?

Parents hold the key to saving public education, any way you look at it.

[niyad]

1. k and r--but question, should it not be "who's" rather than "whose"??

[mia]

4. Thanks.

will edit

[ProdigalJunkMail]

2. apparently not the author of the OP :-)

sorry...maybe you meant it as an irony!

sP

[mia]

6. You're right about that.

: )

[Union Yes]

3. Dean/DK 2012 knr nt

[tonysam]

5. Actually teachers, more than parents, do

That's because they are in the trenches and know exactly what is going on in public ed. They aren't as easily swayed by anti-public school media and political propaganda as are parents.

But teachers are a scared bunch. Their unions all too often cut deals with administrators, so they are basically useless. Teachers are timid because of the total power principals and other administrators have over their careers. They can be written up for stupid reasons, and then put on a target list for termination, and therefore never, ever teach again.

Free speech and civil rights don't apply to teachers.

[mia]

11. "Free speech and civil rights don't apply to teachers."

All the more reason for parents who support public education to speak up. Ever seen the power of a group of inspired room mothers? They've been volunteers in the trenches and don't hesitate to call school board members.

[LWolf]

16. Teachers are a "special interest group"

whose unions have been propagandized to be corrupt and "evil."

Teachers can save public education given the opportunity.

We'll never get that opportunity, though, unless the general public, and more specifically, parents, stand up with us.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. What is always left out of these dicsussions

is what do you propose we DO with these kids who disrupt? Kicking them out of school is not the answer.

[seabeyond]

9. two or three decades ago they went to their own special school.

the problem is, there are more kids that will behave more outrageously than we had in my day. i dont know that we had any kids that would say fuck you to the teacher. son in AP courses adn no kids do in those classes. has an art class and a good many do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. One of my good friends was transferred to an alternative school this year

She says her new name is "that mother fucking music teacher".

[seabeyond]

17. there ya go. nt

[liberal_at_heart]

52. my husband was a student at an alternative high school.

It was the only reason he graduated. There were smaller class sizes and the teachers actually showed an interest in him. Before he went to the alternative school the priniciple at the public school told him he would never amount to anything. The teachers at the alternative school took an interest and didn't treat him like he was trash. He graduated and is now an engineer at a telecom company. Kids need caring adults. Yes, they need caring parents. We do need to try to get parents more involved but we can't throw them away just because their parents don't know how to parent and because it is inconvienent for us to deal with them. It's not the child's fault that their parents are bad parents. We need the teachers to take an interest in at risk kids. I think the only way to make that possible is to lower class sizes.

[JDPriestly]

39. Used to make kids who misbehaved stay after school

and write the same thing many, many times. I have the impression that system worked pretty well. These kids got extra, personal, one-on-one attention from the teacher when they stayed after school. And very often that is what a child needs -- a personal relationship with the teacher. Many children feel that the only way they can be recognized as individuals is by acting out.

Keep them after school and make the parents pick them up. The teacher should stay too and grade papers or prepare the classroom for the next day. That's what teachers used to do, and that is why students used to behave somewhat better. Of course, there will always be problems.

[mia]

12. Some students learn better with self-directed programs.

Disruptive students aren't the only ones. My grandsons were homeschooled for a while had excellent computer based programs. They worked at their own pace and had plenty of time for other activities. Now that they're in public high school, they're enjoying the social life and are getting good grades.

Public schools should use the self-paced programs that have been used by homeschooled students. Many of the charter schools have caught on to this. These programs would help the misbehaving students acheive at their own pace. I believe they would be less likely to disrupt others, because they would achieve a level of academic success every day and not be distracted by others in the classroom. The audience for their misbehavior wouldn't be around.

Many different types of students could benefit from this approach in various subjects - not just those with behavior problems.

[elleng]

15. Quite right!

'Public schools should use' and would retain many of the charters' students AND teachers, if they did. In fact, isn't this one of the reasons charters have obtained some degree of popularity?

[mia]

20. More and more charter schools are using the technolgy .

Charter schools are cheaper to run too, because students are more involved with and more responsible for their own learning. They can move on in a subject just because they really like it. A well thought out program would introduce basic skills through the material that the student is interested in. Just about any topic can be designed to incorporate most subjects. Students could help bringing in these links much like the current wiki programs operate. Research can be fun and the creativity involved would be motivation for any student.

[elleng]

25. Indeed.

Similar to approach in my daughters' school, with 'mixed' curricula. Younger daughter now studing early childhood educ, and will masters in sped. GREAT to listen to her 'learning!'

[LWolf]

18. Public education...we know

that differentiation is essential, that matching students to ways of learning that "fit" their needs and their strengths, and to allow them their own pace, is essential.

Our system doesn't support that much individualization. We have to disband the factory model to do so. Teachers are mostly willing. It is the government and the public that are not.

[mia]

31. Identify mis-behavior immediately. Kindergarten isn't too soon.

There should be zero - tolerance for taking away the rights of others to learn. Children who haven't already been taught this at home should be helped right away. It's not fair to these kids to allow them to think that their disruptive misbehavior is OK. I think that students with chronic misbehavior should be given an alternative class setting where they can prosper through a self-directed program that focuses on their interests.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Agreed!

Most kdg teachers can identify the kids with behavior disorders. But we let them sit in general ed until they are 3rd or 4th grade to keep from mislabeling them.

By then it's already too late for a lot of these kids.

[Catshrink]

36. or 9th grade...

I have a kid now who cannot behave or watch his mouth. Two girls have asked me to move him away from him because he says demeaning things about them (I have reported and documented this). At the end of last semester, I refused to allow him in the classroom when we were studying for final exams because of his behavior and refusal to do any work. He wasn't going to get credit anyway because of 33 unexcused absences and I didn't want him interferring with other students' right to learn. The admins agreed and arranged a place for him to go during my class.

He'll be back in class on Monday, supposedly. But, due to his track record, I am planning to invoke a state law that gives teachers the right to refuse to allow a student who has well-documented misbehavior into the classroom. The sped folks were supposed to have a behavior plan written for him in September but it never materialized. The problems with him go way back to elementary school. I feel I have grounds and our union rep says we can file a grievance if the admins don't back me up. So far they have, but my refusal may force them to place him in an alternative school. It's about damn time.

[seabeyond]

37. my son is a freshman. one of his classes there are a couple boys sittin together. crude and vile

the girl sitting next to them didnt want to and didnt want to go to teaher for whatever reason so son switched places with her.

[seabeyond]

40. the middle school boys are/were in iss. doesnt take much for a kid to be placed in iss

pull him out of the class and they do the work in another area of the school. 5 boys in iss for cussing in class. they dont mess around. it is also a school that is well controlled. which is a factor a lot of kids have issue with. ah well. the rest of the kids get to learn

[seabeyond]

8. point on. that is what i see and i have seen private and public. teachers, adm

are scrambling so to find all kinds of creative ways to help the kids through. if we do this, if we do that.... and what i really truly see that no matter what they do, not gonna cut it because the opportunity is there, is in the kids and parents hands to do. we will never be able to force.

i see people say, what do we need to fix. so many fixes have been put in place and still not doing it. cause that is not where the problem is. keep throwing fixes and i will just see it continue to get worse.

but regardless of the fixes... regardless of the changes.... my boys will be fine and grow, learn cause i will make damn sure they do.

[mia]

13. Parenting classes should be part of the high school curriculum

So that all kids will have the opportunity to become effective parents themselves.

[seabeyond]

19. this is another program we implement into school to do the parents job

which is the point of my post. we look for all kinds of ways to help the children, who are not being helped by the parent to the point of overloading schools and really, it isnt going to do it. cause ultimately, it is the parents job cause all the time spent and lesson learned from parent.

schools, teachers, adm cant raise the kids

BUT

from what i have seen and my niece going thru school a couple years ago, i think there are classes required her in texas. seems like soph year. will see as son goes thru school

[mia]

35. Many parents don't know what to do. Community school based

parenting classes could also help families to raise their children. Back in the 70's our local elementary school offered "Parent Effectivness Training". The discussion groups were very helpful to me.

[Yupster]

14. I taught for 10 years from 80-90

and the decline was very much happening then.

The worst part is that it doesn't have to be this way.

It wasn't this way when I went to school in the 60's.

So what changed from then to now?

It's not a lack of money, because we're paying much more for education today than we did 40 years ago.

It's not teacher pay, because teacher pay is way better today than it was 40 years ago.

So what's different today from yesterday?

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Yes it is a lack of money

All that additional money is staying at the top and not trickling down to the classrooms.

Teacher pay is also better but still not as good as it needs to be to retain young teachers.

What's different today is the impact of 30 years of bashing public schools. Teachers are not respected, unions are evil and public schools are wasting your tax dollars. It's all part of the meme.

[Catshrink]

23. Or pay raises for teachers, if the legislature votes for raises and not cuts

go toward increased health insurance premiums so we rarely see it.

[hughee99]

24. I agree that money is AN issue, but...

are students disruptive because teachers aren't being paid enough?

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. They are disruptive because their needs are not being met

That is a programming issue, and teachers have no control in that area.

[hughee99]

32. So this particular issue is not related to teacher pay, then, right? n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. Well you could argue that higher pay would allow teachers to take more courses

so they had a better grip on dealing with disruptive kids. There's a lot of good information out there but most teachers can't afford to take the training.

[hughee99]

38. You COULD argue that, but you have to work at it...

IMHO, the issue of disruptive students is not one that could be resolved if you paid the teachers $1 million a year. Teachers need to be given more control over their curriculum and more authority to discipline in their classroom or to have effective disciplining done by the administration. Sending a student to the principal who just says "I don't want to see you here again, now go back to class" doesn't help anyone and doesn't convey the intended message to the student.

As has been discussed elsewhere, though, sometimes the student's issues are not from the classroom and it's extremely unlikely that any teacher, regardless of training, effort or authority will be able to resolve a students disciplinary issues in school. In those cases, teachers need the ability to remove students they are not able to "reign in" (though what to do with them is another issue completely).

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. Of course teacher pay won't address every problem we have

Disruptive kids are disruptive because they need HELP. And instead of giving it to them, we just kick them out and bounce them from one program to another. So they are no longer my problem but are still disrupting a class somewhere.

We need alternative programming for these kids and we should be working alongside law enforcement to protect everyone's rights.

[seabeyond]

44. i jsut do not see the teacher able to do this. i know families. it does not matter

what teacher and schools do, from their upbringing they do not have it to do what is required.

i have a brother with three kids, horrible raising in so many ways. both boys in highschool, brilliant, high iq. school easy for them. but regardless of what we can do to help them, they like being able to do as please. not following rules. running wild. they had a lifetime of parents that taught them irresponsibility and that is what they live. there is no magic answer

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. The answer is consequences

Your nephews will learn soon enough. The system will be their teacher.

[seabeyond]

49. one would hope, but even the "system" is letting them go without consequences.

i keep telling brother that it does not benefit the boys to continually take those consequences away from the boys.

was thinking while in the shower.

that line to not cross is always moving for the boys. that is what i see with many children.

[JDPriestly]

50. More courses will not help.

Nor will school reorganization.

It's all about the personal relationship between the teacher and the child. A child learns about personal relationships from the child's parents or cargivers and home. The child brings habits, patterns, learned responses toward authority and group behavior with him or her to the school.

So the teacher has to have the time and opportunity to establish a rapport with each student. Sometimes that means the teacher has to act pretty authoritatively with the child. But that can be difficult if the teacher, in so acting, frightens another child.

Teachers are really born, not made.

I am very effective teaching one student at a time (as I did with music), but I am not comfortable trying to teach a classroom of students. On the other hand, teaching in any context, whether a single student or a large group of students, is second nature to my husband.

Teaching is a talent.

[Catshrink]

22. Parents.

My guess is that if a teacher called your parents about your behavior, you'd be in big trouble. Now parents say, "I don't believe you" or "why do you hate my child?" or "why can't you control your class?" or "my child would never do such a thing." Why would I take time to call you if your kid wasn't causing problems in the classroom?

Oh and add computers in bedrooms, video games, cell phones, etc. that distract kids. All of these should be under parental control but parents are in charge anymore -- the kids are. Parents are afraid of telling their kids no. I swear some of my students have never heard that word.

[seabeyond]

26. i agree. i have watched over and over in different schools. private and public.

i watch the teachers and adm struggle in all kinds of manner to engage student and parent and not working. i hear the whines and excuses from parents as they bash the school system and i tell them knock it off. quit. quit giving that excuse to your child allowing failure.

it makes no sense to me.

i hear ... well the teacher is boring, angry, scattered... and i say, so? so what? still childs responsibility to succeed.

the child is so smart, bored in class. so? so what? still childs responsibility to succeed.

a child is required to go into tutoring and teacher apologizes, weary of insisting. i think, what parent wouldnt be thrilled child getting the extra help, and there are actually parents pissed off, not wanting the intrusion on their schedule.

i agree

[Catshrink]

28. How's this one?

A counselor emailed me about a parent meeting that took place two weeks before the end of the semester. The parents claim their daughter is highly motivated but having trouble in my class. They have her in tutoring but it's not helping and they don't know what to do.

These parents have never contacted me and the students has never come in for help before or after school. In fact, she plays with her friends when she should be working and I told the counselor that I would never have pegged her as a highly motivated student. Her work is sloppy, her tests scores poor, but she doesn't seem to care: she's happy with a D.

I communicated this all to the counselor who wasn't surprised a bit. Here's what gets me -- the parents threw money at a problem without finding out what the problem is. I don't get why they didn't call or email me about the daughter's difficulties.

I expect my kids to be motivated and ask for help if they need it -- I'm not a hovering teacher. I'm trying to teach them to "self-monitor" in preparation for college. Students need to know how to study and self-advocate and these are more important than content when we're talking college bound. Or at least as important. I do tell them this and let them know my expectation up front and remind them frequently. I also show them The Tortoise and the Hare at the beginning of the semester so they understand my philosophy on effort and extra credit. I expect effort to be consistent throughout the semester and not packed into the final two weeks and don't allow extra credit to save someone's ass.

So, call me mean. I think these lessons will end up being the most valuable of all. The only ones "hurt" by this are the slackers -- most kids get it and although they might not like it, they respect that I'm upfront about my strategy and consistent.

[seabeyond]

41. 6th and 9th...

grades sons are in. i have the hardest damn time getting them to ask teacher for help. has been my cross forever. they feel like imposing on teacher. youngest feel stupid when he needs to. lordy, .... i dont know how to get kids to understand it is ok.

as for the kid not motivated, yet parents say she is... exactly, lol

[walldude]

27. Not a lack of money?

Have you looked at public schools lately? Whatever money they are getting not much is making it to the classroom. Teachers are spending their own money on supplies. I have 3 kids in public school, this year on top of the fees it cost me over $1000 for "supplies".

Art and music programs have been cut back to the bone and in some cases gone altogether. Teachers salaries are in the tank in spite of what you say. The average US teacher salary is about $35,000 a year. Not exactly good money for the people we are entrusting our entire future to.

All of this is besides the point. Teachers spend half their time having to teach the kids how to pass the NCLB test so their funding doesn't get cut. Our children aren't being "educated" they are being taught how to pass a test so the school can get more funds.

[seabeyond]

43. i hear ya

and some of the things we are buying.... well, i gotta question.

[Yupster]

55. Maybe a question of allocating money, but

certainly not a problem of not enough money.

I there are 27 kids in a class and the school gets $ 10 k per kid, then that's $ 270 k.

Well, 60 - 70 k goes to the teacher and benefits, so where is the other $ 180 k going?

[walldude]

56. 60-70K? Bullshit.

The average public school teacher makes $35,000. You may see as high as 60K in New York or California but it's not like that everywhere. And if your other figure is correct then we are being robbed yet again.

[Yupster]

57. According to the jobsite indded.com, the average

teacher in Texas in 2006-07 was making $ 54,000.

I work with teachers and that fits with what I see every day. Starting pay out here is about $ 35,000 ad we're not close to New York City.

Also, the district also provides high benefit costs for each teacher. That starts with a big chunk of the teacher's health insurance costs, then adds in the district's contribution for the Teacher retirement System.

I think my numbers are pretty accurate. They would be higher for NY or California.

[seabeyond]

59. interesting. i am in texas. know some teachers but asking pay

isnt something i do much, lol. i am very surprised at the 54k though.

[Yupster]

60. That's indeed.com

too late to edit my bed seplling.

[seabeyond]

58. i was wondering about the 50k.

35k sounds more the correct number from what i heard

[haele]

51. The involvement of the parents. The pay of the parents.

When you have both parents required to work, when commuting times are outrageous, when several jobs are required to keep a secure household for the child to come home to, the parents - or parent in many cases - are forced to choose between insuring the child is growing up in a healthy manner where self-confidence, respect for accomplishments, and all those other ethical values are actually practiced instead of shortcuts like "do as I say, not as I do", "Figure it out for yourself, you're a big kid now, you shouldn't need your hand held like a baby" or "Daddy and Mommy can't help you right now, we're tired" - when the child is six or seven and needs oversight and observation.
When you let a child raise itself, you end up with a character out of "Lord of the Flies". And frankly, when I'm out shopping at the dreaded mall (gohds, I hate malls!) I regularly see packs of roving wild children - tweeners who really shouldn't be left in groups unsupervised - raising themselves.
This is their view - and having a troubled and failing teen (raised too long by an pretty much emotionally absent mother) who has serious respect and confidence problems, I see where part of the problem No one in their lives seems to make the choice to have "time" for and with them, so they don't see why they should make the choice have "time" for anything that doesn't interest them.

School isn't going to help them. What will help them is a community that supports their parents - or someone acting in loco parentis - to actually spend time with them to raise them.

Haele

[mia]

61. I agree with everything you say.

There needs to be more community based programs to help these kids who are raising one another. These kids come from all walks of life and from families who are experiencing sudden hardships where the parents are no longer available for quality time. It would be great to have volunteers to help mentor these children and help them to get involved in things that would productively engage them - like chess clubs, soccer teams,guitar classes, dance classes, homework help...

[seabeyond]

62. it isnt just the poor and disadvantage child. i think that is probably the greater thing today

than in the past.

i am now in a upper income middle school and the same issues are in that school as far as parental participation and supporting the teachers.

[mia]

63. Yes, ths children come from all income levels.

For several years when my children were young teens, I was one of these parents. The soccer program
was so important during those years.

[mmonk]

29. No one. The Third Way and the conservatives are on the same page.

[mia]

48. Just spent some time learning about "The Third Way".

Thanks for introducing me to this particular line of thought. I'm gathering that it emphasizes experience based education as a model, especially as it applies to a more international work force.
I'd like to learn more about it.

I shouldn't be surprised that conservatives and other business oriented groups choose to see public schools as hopeless - they probably have some very good ideas for ways to educate children more effectivly. It's a shame that public school systems don't choose to improve their schools in similar ways, but instead give over funds toward privitization.

[AngryAmish]

46. The technology needed is to keep the lousy kids away from the normal kids

Alas, that is not possible nowadays.

[saltpoint]

47. It's salvageable and worth salvaging, but left to me I'd put Bill Bradley in

charge of it.

Immediately if not sooner.

[mackerel]

53. Worth salvaging yes but is it truely salvageable?

I think it's honestly too late for public education as the best parents have made a mass exodus to private or charter schools. I myself was left with no choice, I had to move on in the best interest of my children.

Great thread mia!

[saltpoint]

54. I think it is, certainly. Madison and Jefferson had a good idea and

I think it's worth sticking with.