If you can read this..

[walldude]

Thank a teacher.

Man I am seeing a lot of crap posted about our education system and teachers.

Demonizing teachers. The average public school teacher makes $50,000 a year. We trust our children and basically our entire future to these folks and they make $50,000 a year. It's beyond laughable.
They work extra hours with kids who need it, they use their own money for classroom supplies, they are dealing with apathetic parents and clueless administrators, and yet many people seem to want to blame them because our children aren't learning.

We set them up to fail, with classes that are too big, not enough money and supplies, and little to no support, then we demand that they get paid on their merits and performance. Oh look here's a race car, it doesn't have any tires or wheels but if you don't come in first place we will also take away the doors and the engine too. :crazy:

There is nothing wrong with our school system that can't be fixed with a bit of funding and a shift to actually educating our kids instead of teaching them how to pass a standardized test that will score additional funds for the school. We need to stop with the "competition" crap and start paying attention to actual learning, and we need to stop letting "Administrators" make decisions about classrooms they have never set foot in. This is not a sporting even, it's our future.

Edited for up to date salary figures thanks to the DU'er who came in to unrec me and found out I used old figures and had himself a little fun.

[NJmaverick]

1. Here are the 2007 figures

2007 Survey and Analysis of Teacher Salary Trends

The average salary for traditional public school teachers increased 4.5 percent in 2006-07 to $51,009,

http://www.aft.org/salary/index.htm


Edited to reflect the corrected numbers by the OP

[walldude]

4. Pardon me my figures were from a few years ago.

But go ahead and tell me it's a good idea that the future of our country is dependent on people who make 50 grand a year instead of 35. Thats really fucking brilliant. Thats all you got from this post? That my figure was wrong? You are a waste of time and energy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. Sometimes those salary averages include administrator pay

Look up the average administrator pay. Or better yet - average supt pay.

[Jakes Progress]

15. Sort of like putting me and Bill Gates in a room

so that the average person in the room is a billionaire.

Best way to find out what teachers make is to look at the salary for teacher with 12 years experience and post graduate work. The national average there won't be $50K. Then check by state and county. %0K sounds really good people living in rural Arkansas or Louisiana. They have administrators there that don't make that much.

Better yet. Stop nit picking and look at what the OP is saying.

[DailyGrind51]

46. Exactly! The majority of school district administrators are certified teachers.

Except, of course, for Chicago's Arne Duncan, who never bothered to become State certified.

[StarfarerBill]

8. +1 to infinity.

Teachers deserve pay on par with doctors and lawyers; their work is every bit as important.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. Many of us have as much or more education than a lawyer

and some doctors too.

[NJmaverick]

17. Facts Matter

I think if we are going to discuss an issue it's done with the correct data. I appreciate that you at least edited your post so that the number is a bit more accurate (although posting the exact 2007 numbers with a notation of the year would have been even better). If you update those numbers to today I would expect them to be closer to $60,000 per year.


I didn't voice an opinion one way or the other, on your OP. I just wanted the facts to be correct.

[walldude]

LMFAO.. yeah right..

Facts only matter to you when you don't like the person posting them. If you gave a shit about the facts you'd read what the TEACHERS posted above about their pay and realize that you are WRONG again.

And again I will reiterate that all you got from this post was I got the amount wrong. Which means you only came in here looking for a fight. Piss up a rope.

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. You'll notice I never post my salary

There will be some teacher hater who believes I am overpaid regardless of how much I make.

[walldude]

41. LMFAO.. yeah right..

Facts only matter to you when you don't like the person posting them. If you gave a shit about the facts you'd read what the TEACHERS posted above about their pay and realize that you are WRONG again.

And again I will reiterate that all you got from this post was I got the amount wrong. Which means you only came in here looking for a fight. Piss up a rope.

[Bluebear]

98. 'Which means you only came in here looking for a fight'

No, never~~~

:silly:

[hughee99]

68. What were you thinking...

posting on a thread like this with stats from a hardcore right-wing, anti-teacher source like the AFT. You SHOULD be listening to anecdotal stories rather than giving any credibility to such statistics from dubious sources. This just proves you don't know what you're talking about. Please lay your teaching credentials out for everyone, so they can dismiss your information (I would say opinion, but you didn't seem to express any in your original post) once and for all. :sarcasm:

[tonysam]

30. Of course that includes teachers with 30 years of experience

as well as newbies.

Starting pay is typically shit.

[laughingliberal]

60. Starting pay is shit and it is amazing anyone ever chooses to do the job of teachers

They have my respect.

[NashVegas]

82. In Our School System

The highest paid teachers are grade school teachers, with 40 years in the system. They make about $65k.

High school math teachers average 10-12 years experience in the system and make about $40k.

The IT and database managers make $100k.

That pretty much tells you what it's all about, no?

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. Thank you walldude!

:applause:

[walldude]

6. This one is for you.. and all those in the trenches..

:toast:

I'm on a flight in an hour.. kick me later for the night crew will ya!

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. Will do!

Have a safe underwear bomber proof flight!

[thelordofhell]

3. They got rid of tenure in Arizona

And since this is a "right-to-work" state, you can be fired without cause at any time. If you are a teacher, don't go to Arizona.

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. Don't go to Detroit either

They took away their health insurance and $500 a month in pay.

[walldude]

9. Didn't they get some new loser on the Detroit school board this week?

I know I read something about it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. I'm not sure

Their new supt is a Broad Academy graduate. That's the new administrator training that trains non educators to be school administrators. Like Arne, the wonder US Sec of Ed.

(You too can grow up to become Sec of Ed! No need to have actual experience TEACHING!!)

My district is so broke that they are looking at closing 20 - 30 schools but the supt (also a Broad grad) is asking for $800,000 to send admins for Broad training.

[Dinger]

115. Yikes, Sounds Like arne duncant's Idea Os "Success"

So we can expect more of this. Fuck that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

116. They want to punish us

We don't deserve health insurance because our kids aren't learning. And besides, so many people are out of work and have NO insurance, we may as well take it away from teachers too!!

[femmocrat]

24. And stay out of NC if you are a new teacher.

Some districts there fire new teachers before they are eligible for tenure. No reason except that they can save money by hiring newbies.

This is what happens in states that are not unionized.

[tonysam]

32. The wrongful terminations and lawsuits will skyrocket as a result of tenure being done away with

The biggest reason for tenure is to put a brake on unscrupulous principals to fire teachers for frivolous or even illegal reasons. Tenure also preserves staff morale and creates a stable environment for kids, who have the right to have experienced teachers and not revolving door newbies. Tenure is no real job security for teachers once asshole administrators begin the process--teachers typically foolishly settle while a few brave souls sue anyway--as they almost always "win" these rigged hearings, but overall tenure saves districts money on lawsuit costs and insurance premiums as insurance companies typically pay on federal lawsuits.

[patrice]

10. I know the kinds of posts to which you refer. Many people can't/don't recognize how they contribute

to whatever is going on between themselves and others and, shall we say . . . the internet just is not all that conducive to truth telling.

[johnaries]

12. Amen!

Well said! Yes, we set them up to fail. I think that was part of the neocon plan, who really wanted to privatize schools.

I agree with a "results-oriented" approach, but the results cannot be accurately measured by standardized tests - at least not alone. As a former college professor of mine once said, "doing well on tests only proves that you know how to take tests." So true, so true.

[Fumesucker]

14. That's not true in every case..

I was taught to read at home well before I entered school and I did the same with my own child.

Not to disparage teachers, I agree that it's a critically important profession but not all education takes place in school, some of the most important learning is done in the home.

[Liquorice]

29. I agree. I could read well before entering school too. nt

[greenbriar]

16. thanks

I make in between 50 and 60 grand, but that also includes my supplemental. We work way more than people give us credit for and the June, July, August myth is just that. A myth.

[Angry Dragon]

18. Let the charter schools educate the young

and we will end up with all kids knowing the same things. We will have a country of kids that never learned how to think for themselves and then the people in charge will wonder why we are falling behind all the other countries.

[lastliberalintexas]

31. We're going to have that anyhow

But it isn't the teachers' fault, it's the curricula being imposed by politicians.

[Posteritatis]

52. Tickybox-testing everything will lead to the same situation with the public schools anyway. (nt)

[elocs]

19. 1. Teachers are underpaid. 2. Don't give an UnReccer attention, particularly in your OP.

Not many years ago I worked a union job, unskilled labor just putting cases of food on a pallet, and I made more money per year than a starting teacher. That's not right. Yet there are people in my community who claim that teachers are overpaid.

To be a teacher, a good teacher, you had better have a calling to do it. I have a bachelor's degree and I could have been a teacher, but to tell the truth I had absolutely no calling to do it so I never even considered it.

Sadly it is heard, "we need teachers, we need teachers" and then someone goes to college to be a teacher and then when they graduate they cannot find jobs. I can remember a few years ago in a small community near mine who decided to lay off teachers because of the budget. They had 2 first year teachers, a married couple, who were both laid off. Sad because they could have been a couple who would have built a strong life and could have been a good addition to that community for years. I wonder if they were even able to stay there with both out of work.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. I had friends in college who worked part time at a meat packing plant

and they made more than my friends who were beginning teachers.

For years I justified this disparity with the thought that I had a secure job and never had to worry about being laid off. Also pretty good benefits and retirement.

Then they started laying off teachers. Never thought I would see this day come. It's truly heart breaking.

[gleaner]

22. I have always thought ,,,,,

that public education is one of the keys to our future. I am really saddened by the way the public schools have been run into the ground and the teachers have gone from a position of respect to people who are not considered as very important. Public education exposes children to people and knowledge they might not get at home. I enjoyed school. I learned a lot and it made me curious to learn more.

That was a long time ago though. and parents respected the teachers (who are still deserving of that respect) and worked with them to help out at the schools and teach the kids to cooperate with their teachers and learn all they could.

Don't we all have one favorite teacher who seemed to open the world for us? I still remember two. One in the third grade who taught me that saying "I can't," is not acceptable until you try and who recommended books for me above my grade level to my mother because she believed I could learn faster than the pace of the class was taking us. The other was my Biology teacher and Honors Counselor in high school who showed me that science was really kind of magical and worth pursuing. She spent some of her own time with us in her AP classes to teach us how to think and work the way we would need to for college. They were both remarkable women and they could have done anything. Luckily for me, they chose to teach. I would like all children to have that experience and I know that public schools can do it if we fund them and allow the teachers to teach.

[LWolf]

23. This teacher thanks you.

I wish more people would stand up for us, and for our students.

[Starry Messenger]

25. A lot of people here suck at the teat of Reagan when it comes to education

and teachers. Pretty amazing, huh?

[maryf]

26. Thank you so much!

Sometime a friendly word of support helps keep a teacher going for months! That and some wonderful kids...K&R

[mia]

27. Public schools are lie race cars without wheels...

Love your analogy! You must have had some good teachers. Thanks for your post.

[walldude]

28. kick...

[MadHound]

33. Thanks so much

It seems like here, as out in the real world, the knee jerk reaction of a lot of people is to blame teachers first, last and always.

[hfojvt]

34. dude, I have 8 years of university education, two degrees

and I make $12,000-17,000. True, if I was working full time, I would make about $27,000.

Either way, $50,000 a year does not sound bad to me at all.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. How does your work improve your community?

I happen to believe that educating our children is very important work and is worthy of a decent salary. The work itself is more worthy than the fact that you need a degree for it.

[hfojvt]

76. $50,000 looks pretty darn decent from where I sit.

seems to me that the idea that "I do something important" is another fringe benefit that the average janitor does not get. Instead I get to think "I do something that could be done by a person with a 3rd grade education".

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. do you really think the average janitor should make as much as a teacher?

I don't.

[hfojvt]

96. Did I say that?

What I said was that the average teacher seems to already make almost twice as much as a well-paid janitor that I really don't see a pressing need to get more money to teachers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

97. Starting pay for teachers in this area is often less than $30,000

Some districts pay as little as $20,000. I find that shameful. If we don't raise starting pay we won't get new teachers. Without new teachers . . .

[hfojvt]

101. yeah, the temptation to take a janitor job must be almost overwhelming

or not. Back in 2002, I thought I could make decent money as a substitute in Missouri. The economy was so bad, or something, that I never got a single call.

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. Subs are the first thing they freeze when there's a budget crunch

Which is silly because they end up paying teachers to sub for each other. So it isn't a money saver to not hire subs.

And yes, you can make decent money subbing. If you are certified, the pay in my district is $150 a day.

[donco6]

117. That's kinda sad.

Our lead custodians make $30,000. Perhaps a career change is in order.

[varelse]

35. I thank my parents

they taught me to read, and to value the skill.

[Dappleganger]

100. +1

I do believe that given the necessarily skills, most parents can teach their child to read. Not all of them (parents or children), but most of them. It's the greatest gift you can give besides life itself!

[varelse]

120. My younger sister tells me that I taught her to read

we both taught our youngest sisters to read. Our family visited the library at least once a month - I read all of the books checked out by any family member, because I got through my own long before the next visit.

The early environment counts a lot. That's one of many reasons I find it so disheartening that so much is blamed on public schoolteachers. Most of the skills required for success are taught before the child enters school, and are part of the family's "culture" throughout the child's life.

Blaming poor and working class parents isn't the answer either. Parents working overtime and/or double shifts to keep up with food, shelter, medical care and basic necessities should not also have to bear the burden of scorn from those in better circumstances. Our parents had time to read to us, visit the library, and educate us because our family was able to survive frugally but very successfully on one parent's salary.

If we could afford it, re-funding public libraries and after school programs such as art, music, cultural heritage or team sports activities would help bring education back into prominence as a mainstream pursuit. Instead, it appears that Federal education funds will increasingly be diverted to speed the transition from free public education to publically funded private institutions whose primary concern will be increasing profits, rather than serving the public good.

[Zoeisright]

36. Thank you. Teachers are heroes.

I'd like to see education have a bunch of money thrown at it, just like this country has thrown money at wars and banksters.

[Withywindle]

37. I remember a poster from the 70s or 80s

that said, "It will be a great day when our schools have all the money they need, and the Pentagon has to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber." :thumbsup:

[whathehell]

38. I'd like to see police and firefighters paid more as well..

So what if most don't have as much education as teachers?...They put their LIVES on the line every day.

[Yuugal]

39. 50k?

I googled "how much does an average school teacher make in islip,ny?" because that is where I use to live before I moved upstate and came up with this article from 2005: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/nyregion/15liteach.html?pagewanted=print

"There's a lot of people out there who make a lot more than I do," said Patricia Daniello, 53, an East Islip teacher at the pinnacle of her profession - 30 years' experience, a master's degree with 90 hours of additional credit, and a $116,772 salary. "Do I think my salary is high, based on what I do for children and the amount of education I have in my background? No, I do not."

But some taxpayers in her district disagree. Ms. Daniello is one of more than 100 teachers whose six-figure salaries appear on a list circulated to voters by the East Islip TaxPac, a group campaigning against the district's proposed 8.8-percent tax increase.

"We're trying to convince people that our teachers and teachers' union and administrators do not have the children's interest at heart," said Richard Graham, a member of the anti-tax group. "The people who couldn't do the engineering, and anything else that required some brain power, became teachers, and they now have $100,000 salaries."


The reason this issue is so hard to discuss in a civil manner where I used to live is that property taxes are over 10k for people making an average of 50k a year and those people are asked to pay teachers over 100k. It leads to the lower paid people screaming about how greedy and undeserving the teachers are and it also leads to the teachers crying poverty at six figures. Both lines of thought make me wanna puke.

I think there is way too much of a spread between what starting teachers make and what the 30 yr vet makes. With that said, I don't see how areas like this can afford to keep pumping up already high teacher's salaries and ignoring the fact that working people here stopped getting raises in the 90's and have been getting slaughtered by taxes for years. Everyone I knew who owned a house needed to rent out a part of it just to help with taxes. There was a time when taking a govt job meant less pay but better benefits and retirement. Now it means plenty of money and benes for them while working stiffs lose some of both every year to inflation and taxes.

I'm not sure what teachers make upstate where I live now but the class sizes are much smaller and the quality of the teaching staff is much higher. My sister can't get a teaching job on long island with her masters plus 90 except for subbing because she doesn't know spanish and most districts need to accommodate so many illegals nowadays it sucks money out of the system that could have went to decreasing class size. Instead they just want more teachers who can teach in spanish. I wish NY would make school funding come out of the general tax fund instead of dumping it exclusively on the home owners and forcing them to leave for greener pastures. I pay less to rent an entire house upstate than I payed monthly just in property taxes on Wrong Island. Glad I'm out.

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. What's the cost of living there?

Some of the highest paid teachers in the country are in Alaska. Not because the schools are superb, but because the cost of living is so high there.

[annabanana]

67. on long island the taxes on a small

2 bedroom 1 bathroom home is about $5500 per year . .

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. Long Island teachers can make well over $100,000 a year

But last time I checked, teachers in Alaska made more.

[donco6]

118. And how much is for schools?

Versus the amount for city, county governments, fire/police services, urban drainage, libraries, transportation districts, stadium tax . . . ?

People tend to believe all their taxes go to schools and don't look at their bill.

But that is a big amount for someone on a small income regardless.

[NashVegas]

83. That's 30 Years - THIRTY - Years Experience

I noted in a post elsewhere the highest paid teachers in our system are 40 year vets teaching at 1st, 2nd, 3rd grade level at $65k while HS math teachers make $40k with 10 years.

And the IT managers make double of that with less than 3 years.

It's a fucking charade, but I doubt that teacher with 30 years experience hasn't earned the rewards.

[cornermouse]

40. k & r.

Right on target.

[krabigirl]

42. Actually, I was reading before I went to school and some teachers ro

actually punished me because I dared to read further along in the books assigned because I was bored to tears.

[Taitertots]

43. I've always wondered how

Teachers constantly complain about how administrators are unqualified to make decisions about teaching because they are not teachers. Yet they see no problem second guessing people when they have no administration experience. As if an administrator who was not a teacher is bad, but a teacher who has no knowledge of business affairs should complain because they know better.

Pot meet kettle.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. Schools aren't businesses; we're not selling groceries

We're educating kids.

Blows MY mind how many people think a business model is the cure for public education. Like we are selling apples!?

[Taitertots]

51. Schools are a firm

That you somehow think schools shouldn't use modern business techniques clearly demonstrates that you are incapable of making effective administrative decisions. It is easy to complain that you don't get everything you want. It is not easy to give people what they want when they have mutually exclusive expectations.

Your whole critique is just a one liner without and substance. It is just a jingle, a bumper sticker. It is a simplification that leads me to believe you have no idea what "a business model" even means.

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. The business model does not work in education; it is insulting to our kids to believe it does

Read and learn:

The Blueberry Story: The teacher gives the businessman a lesson

“If I ran my business the way you people operate your schools, I wouldn’t be in business very long!”

I stood before an auditorium filled with outraged teachers who were becoming angrier by the minute. My speech had entirely consumed their precious 90 minutes of inservice. Their initial icy glares had turned to restless agitation. You could cut the hostility with a knife.

I represented a group of business people dedicated to improving public schools. I was an executive at an ice cream company that became famous in the middle1980s when People Magazine chose our blueberry as the “Best Ice Cream in America.”

I was convinced of two things. First, public schools needed to change; they were archaic selecting and sorting mechanisms designed for the industrial age and out of step with the needs of our emerging “knowledge society”. Second, educators were a major part of the problem: they resisted change, hunkered down in their feathered nests, protected by tenure and shielded by a bureaucratic monopoly. They needed to look to business. We knew how to produce quality. Zero defects! TQM! Continuous improvement!

In retrospect, the speech was perfectly balanced - equal parts ignorance and arrogance.

As soon as I finished, a woman’s hand shot up. She appeared polite, pleasant – she was, in fact, a razor-edged, veteran, high school English teacher who had been waiting to unload.

She began quietly, “We are told, sir, that you manage a company that makes good ice cream.”

I smugly replied, “Best ice cream in America, Ma’am.”

“How nice,” she said. “Is it rich and smooth?”

“Sixteen percent butterfat,” I crowed.

“Premium ingredients?” she inquired.

“Super-premium! Nothing but triple A.” I was on a roll. I never saw the next line coming.

“Mr. Vollmer,” she said, leaning forward with a wicked eyebrow raised to the sky, “when you are standing on your receiving dock and you see an inferior shipment of blueberries arrive, what do you do?”

In the silence of that room, I could hear the trap snap…. I was dead meat, but I wasn’t going to lie.

“I send them back.”

“That’s right!” she barked, “and we can never send back our blueberries. We take them big, small, rich, poor, gifted, exceptional, abused, frightened, confident, homeless, rude, and brilliant. We take them with ADHD, junior rheumatoid arthritis, and English as their second language. We take them all! Every one! And that, Mr. Vollmer, is why it’s not a business. It’s school!”

In an explosion, all 290 teachers, principals, bus drivers, aides, custodians and secretaries jumped to their feet and yelled, “Yeah! Blueberries! Blueberries!”

And so began my long transformation.

Since then, I have visited hundreds of schools. I have learned that a school is not a business. Schools are unable to control the quality of their raw material, they are dependent upon the vagaries of politics for a reliable revenue stream, and they are constantly mauled by a howling horde of disparate, competing customer groups that would send the best CEO screaming into the night.

None of this negates the need for change. We must change what, when, and how we teach to give all children maximum opportunity to thrive in a post-industrial society. But educators cannot do this alone; these changes can occur only with the understanding, trust, permission and active support of the surrounding community. For the most important thing I have learned is that schools reflect the attitudes, beliefs and health of the communities they serve, and therefore, to improve public education means more than changing our schools, it means changing America.


Copyright 2002, by Jamie Robert Vollmer

Jamie Robert Vollmer, a former business executive and attorney, now works as a motivational speaker and consultant to increase community support for public schools. He can be reached at [e-mail]

http://www.jamievollmer.com/blue_story.html

[laughingliberal]

59. Excellent article! Thanks for posting! nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. I wish I had a nickel for every time I have posted it here

It's so basic. Our kids are not groceries or other commodities. How insulting to assume they are.

[laughingliberal]

73. An excellent illustration. I went through the same scenarios in nursing

with the takeover of the hospital industry by for-profit corporations. I wonder how many people here defending the business model of education are happy to know that the business model of health care means that hospital they are relying on for their care decided long ago that a few wrongful death suits would be cheaper than paying enough nurses to safely staff that floor they are on? Certainly, we all believe in controlling costs where possible but, at what point, do we consider anything more important than the bottom line?

[Taitertots]

62. All you have is a fable

The children are not blueberries and we are not making ice cream. We are providing a service, not manufacturing a product. We making cars into hot rods. Schools are a firm.


That you can only understand this is such simplistic terms is making it clear that you have no idea what you are talking about. You do realize that there is more than one way businesses operate.


An weak anecdote about a lucky advertising spot is poor support for your cause.


The Break down:
Decisions need to be made.
What needs to be purchased, when it needs to be purchased, how much to purchase, where to buy it from, how long will it last...
Who to hire, how much to pay them, what are they supposed to be doing, how can I tell if they are doing it...

These are decisions that people with "business" knowledge are capable of making. Teachers do not have the training, experience, or information to make these decisions.

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. The author's email is included in what I posted

Contact him and tell him his story is a fable.

[Taitertots]

102. Why don't you just tell me why you think you can make better decisions

than the administrators.

Decisions need to be made.
What needs to be purchased, when it needs to be purchased, how much to purchase, where to buy it from, how long will it last...
Who to hire, how much to pay them, what are they supposed to be doing, how can I tell if they are doing it...

You have no training, experience, or knowledge how to make these decisions. I'm not going to take your opinion on administration, the same as I won't take their opinions on micromanaging teachers.

And please stop saying "a business model". There is no such concept that could be applied to schools. There are an almost infinite amount of business models and business techniques. There is no one thing that could be called "business model". No one set of actions called "business model".

[proud2BlibKansan]

105. Any administrator who has never been in a classroom should not be an administrator

I never said I could make better decisions. I said the business model won't work. And yes there is such a thing. Our kids are not products or profits or commodities. It takes classroom experience to understand that. We can't run our schools like they are retail stores.

[Taitertots]

108. Obviously you seem to think you can make better decisions

You have done nothing but complain that they are making the wrong ones. I think telling people what they should and should not be doing implies that you believe you can make the decisions better.

There is no such thing as "the business model". The naivety shown by your inability to grasp this concept is amazing. I have a business degree and all my econ degree requirements, there is not such thing as "the business model". The fact that you can't understand this make it evident that you have no basis to judge administrative decisions.

We can't run schools like retail stores, well no shit. Do they run coffee shops the same way? Do they run factories the same way? Do they run dance clubs the same way? Do they run movie theaters the same way? Do they run non-profits the same way? Obviously not. Even business in the same fields don't operate the same. So what is "the business model"?

[proud2BlibKansan]

113. Here are some good references:

Profit and Loss in the Classroom: Will the Business Model Bankrupt Education?

by Wilma S. Longstreet

The use of the business model for the evaluation of the quality of education has become deeply embedded in the public's thinking. Americans hold a general disdain for professional jargon and for what they believe is undue complexity. As a result, the efforts of educators to explain what seems obvious--that schools are not factories, that children are not "widgets," and that there are a multiplicity of educational goals demanded by the public that are not measurable by test scores--have fallen on deaf ears.

The nationwide comparison of test scores to indicate which schools are succeeding and which are failing comes at a tremendous cost. It denies the complexity of millions of disparate student personalities and backgrounds, and embraces, instead, the simplicity of a numerical score.

Most of us accept that children have diverse personalities, develop at different rates, and exhibit widely differing talents and abilities. However, particularly as children reach the third or fourth grade, they need to be prepared to perform well in the public arena. They need credentials and skills to get along as adults. http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=LBBWMjY8dT2hgWmDyyhWpcpJysccXQwhqvpfxNmnZGZhG7572CYq!1888687908!-1986555990?docId=5000664915

As far as for calling students "customers," I can only say, "Yikes." The idea that students are first customers weakens their position even further, I fear. The goal of education is educated students. The goal of business is profit. In our publicly funded Adult ESL system in Manitoba, we demand accountability for our funding in pedagogical terms. We insist on learner-centredness in our programs, we insist on qualified and effective instructors using current methods and materials. We insist on regular monitoring of learner progress and regular feedback to learners on their progress. We take all ESL learners who want to learn English to communicate in this community, and we don't make decisions on the basis of their ability to pay. Nor do we "cream" and select only the best students. No doubt many private schools are commendable institutions. However, some are not. Private schools at their worst are elitist and exclusionary. - Joanne Pettis, Coordinator, Adult ESL Curriculum Development & Implementation Adult Language Training Branch, Manitoba Labour & Immigration CANADA
http://www-writing.berkeley.edu/tesl-ej/ej30/f1.html

The whole "education as business" phenomenon seems to be a very negative trend. One problem with it is clearly the "customer satisfaction" and "exceeding the customer's expectations" issues. If one is talking about student services, then certain expectations will not be hard to meet per a business model - delivery of service, response time to inquiries etc. But when it comes to quality of education and expectations for student achievement, it is a dangerous thing. Having paid for a "product," a student expects a certain return on it in the form of a passing grade. But when the quality of the work is substandard, this places great pressure on an instructor to revert to leniency in grading, even to the point of grade inflation. And what about goals? If the goal of the student is only to get that class over with and get a grade so he can go on and get a degree and improve his marketability, where does that leave an educational institution??? Should the role of education, even at a community college level, be to improve an individual's marketability? Is college nothing more than pre-professional training? What about learning? Value systems? Critical thinking? Developing an educated, ethical citizenry? I understand there are market forces at work and competition for students' dollars. Institutions need to survive. But this blurring of education and business lines bodes ill for the future, especially now when young people, more than ever, are seen as simply something to manipulate for economic ends. For me students are not simply consumers and a teacher is not a "provider of services." Let's not let market forces undermine the role of education in our society. -Jeanne Belisle Lombardo,Program Coordinator, Maricopa Community College District
http://www-writing.berkeley.edu/tesl-ej/ej30/f1.html

[Taitertots]

121. What I'm talking about is not associated with those at all

I don't see why you are associating what I'm saying what the "school as a business" movement or calling students customers. That is a specific business model that I don't endorse. Your philosophy for education could be described as a business model for education. My totally different philosophy for school administration is a business model. A business model is just a planned method take what you have and turn it into what you want. One specific theory doesn't mean business knowledge is useless in administration.

I'm saying that the decisions required for school administration require different information, education, and experience. Teachers are not in a position to know the outside limitations they may have. It is an experience set that teachers generally don't have.

As much as both of us would like teachers use the best schools, books, and computers, the resources are limited. So we should have the best teachers as teachers. The best people organizing resources to provide to teachers should be doing that. Are teachers the best at organizing resources? The best people at looking to find out what works should be analyzing schools. Are teachers the best at analyzing statistical data?

[EFerrari]

78. That's funny. Not to mention, our schools have gone straight to hell

since some genius tried to apply a business model to running them. Thank god my kids were long outta there before that debacle began.

[laughingliberal]

79. +1000 nt

[Taitertots]

104. What is "a business model"?

Do you honestly believe that means one thing? Or is it just a blanket jingle you invented to bemoan any ideas you disagree with.

Even in business there are an almost infinite way of running a business.


You are complaining that dinner tastes bad because they used a "cooking model", that your car doesn't run because you used a "mechanics model" to fix it.

[EFerrari]

106. If you're unclear on the term, maybe you could access The Google.

[Taitertots]

109. Ok, the first result is Wikipedia

Which has over 20 specific examples of business models.

The next result says business models describe how you take inputs and turn them into valuable outputs.

There are thousands of activities that could be described by a thousand different business models. There is no one "business model". Every business has a different one.

[annabanana]

86. +1000. This is a truth that republicans and the DLC alike

cannot seem to "get".

[donco6]

119. Well, yes and no.

There are huge differences between private and governmental businesses.

Private businesses are really all about profit. And that's as it should be. They exist to make money for their owners (at least, as long as you are a good capitalist, they do.) So a business plan would revolve around producing this profit - by producing a product that people want, at a price the market says you can charge, for a cost that the company can afford. You do your research, plan your marketing campaign, set up your cost accounting, and see what happens.

Governmental entities exist to provide a specific service, in this case, education. It's more about providing what the community wants for the money they provide. It would be a mistake to think it's always a measure of success to wind up at the end of the fiscal year with millions more than you started with. It's just as likely that you didn't do what you were supposed to do - perhaps you let capital construction slide, or you left class sizes artificially high. Neither of those things serve the community.

I agree with you that people pounce on administrators as being the ultimate source of all that is wrong with public education. It's unfortunate that things have evolved to that point. I think we have a decent relationship here, which seems to be very unusual. But frankly, most of the teachers I work with wouldn't WANT to do the things the principal does - like trying to deal with angry parents all day, or responding to the latest OCR complaint, or sorting out who gets to have what temperature in her classroom, or explain to the board why the test scores didn't go up. I don't think they always realize it's all part of a package deal. They tend to want to control all the budget, but forget about all the other shit that goes with it - like losing all job security. They don't want that.

On the other hand, I've seen crazy administrators come and go over my 15 years. I've seen administration let things go WAY too long with some of these jackasses. So I can totally understand the frustration.

But to create a business model for a school system, or even an individual school would be . . . difficult. We don't control the funding or the number of kids that enroll which produces the funding. All we really control is the expenditure. What we can do is focus on providing what the community wants so that they continue to support us. But now that is at cross-purposes with what we're being forced to do by the federal government. We, for example, are having to close two schools that haven't been able to raise their test scores high enough to get out of the penalty category of NCLB. I just can't even imagine what the community's response is going to be, but it isn't going to be good.

Anway, this is long enough. It's just not that easy to fit a school into a true business model.

[Mari333]

44. I also Thank Captain Kangaroo!

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. Me too. And Mickey Mouse.

They got me interested in reading. Teachers taught me HOW to read. :)

[DailyGrind51]

45. Thank you!

[caraher]

49. Another twist in salary figures...

My wife is in a master's program for career-changing into teaching and the corporation (for some reason in Indiana, they don't call them "districts") where she is student-teaching brags about paying more than surrounding areas. Turns out that they do this by not offering health benefits! Apparently there are enough teachers covered by their spouse's employer that the jobs are considered attractive despite this. The teacher under whose supervision she's teaching is married to a teaching in a different school system and he gets his health care through her employer, with the result that the other school system is subsidizing the health care of a teacher in a different school system.

Next year, statewide, schools are going to be getting almost $300 million less from the state. It's not going to be pretty.

[tblue37]

50. My sister, who has been teaching 8th-9th grade English for 8

years, just recently made it over $30,000 per year. She would be thrilled to get $50,000, and so would her colleagues! Public school teachers make far less than $50,000 in many parts of the country!

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. The average pay in MO is lots lower than that too

About 10 years ago the state passed a law mandating a minimum salary for teachers (I believe it was $20K) and there were literally dozens of rural districts who complained because even their most senior teachers did not earn $20K.

[WT Fuheck]

53. man. I wish I made $50K.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. Do you have a college degree? Graduate degree?

[WT Fuheck]

70. yes. yes.

I teach.

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. Well as some of us said upthread, these 'average' figures often include admins

and there are districts here in the US with teachers earning over $100K a year, due to the high cost of living in the area. Those will throw the average up way high.

[laughingliberal]

61. Well, 50K is an average. They don't make that much starting out, as a rule

But you are free to get the education required, start for shit, and work till you reach that pay level.

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. I made $7200 in 1980

Average starting pay back then was $12,500. Few teachers earned more than $30K back then.

[laughingliberal]

72. Yes, I have a friend who teaches at the college level. She is now up to $70,000

but I remember her making less than $40,000 in 1990 and that was with 2 masters' degrees. It is a horribly underpaid profession. The $50,000 is a national average and is deceptive. It reflects the pay in states where wages are higher and it reflects the pay of many who have been at it for many years. The same with nursing. I get people here telling me how their friend, sister, whoever is a nurse in MA and makes $100,000 per year. The most I ever made in a year was $60,000 and that was with massive overtime that year.

[proud2BlibKansan]

74. I have never earned as much as any of my friends in college who graduated and went on

to other professions. My friends became accountants, scientists, nurses, bankers. Every single one has ALWAYS earned more than I do. Most of us have masters degrees now and I still earn far less than most of them.

Now I will say that some of my friends have been laid off. We are in our mid 50s and the job prospects are slim. Some have hopped from one job to another. And I really feel for them, lacking the job security teachers have. But teachers are being laid off due to budget cuts and we don't have that security anymore.

[laughingliberal]

75. Oh, I get it. And I am an over 50 out of work nurse, now

Not likely to ever find work which pays well again. As much as we keep hearing about the demand, it is mostly for ICU, ER. I have been out of the hospitals since '95 and not worked at all for 2 years. Not so easy to get back in. Hospitals in my area are not hiring at all and, when they do, it is those with recent experience in ICU or ER. My hospital experience was all in oncology. And, like most workers in private industry, we have no retirement plans, just whatever of our own money we can manage to put in a 401k. We are hearing a lot of concern these days about a shortage of nursing instructors. Well, duh! They face the same issues as all teachers. It requires a masters' degree in nursing and pays 1/2 or less that what they would make in the field. No one that works in the 'helping professions' is doing very well these days. Our society does not value those whose occupations are to care for others whether it is caring for the education or their health.

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. Many education professors don't earn as much as teachers

You are so right about the helping professions. I also think the meme of public employees being lazy and not deserving of decent salaries plays a role here.

[laughingliberal]

85. Yep. Still part of the assault on government started by Reagan

And still alive and well, today. Our materialistic culture of greed has ruined this country. Our children are not educated, our sick are not healed, our hungry are not fed.

[leeroysphitz]

77. But im self tawt

[LeftyMom]

81. I taught myself to read when I was two. I guess I should thank me for being awesome instead.

Maybe I'll order myself takeout. A gigantic order of spring rolls and a veganized Thai iced tea sounds like a nice thank you.

[EFerrari]

88. I don't remember anyone teaching me how to read either

and knew how to read when I hit first grade although, unfortunately, in the wrong language. lol

Spring rolls sound pretty good to me!

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. I could read before I went to kdg; don't remember who taught me

But my teachers taught me WHAT to read and WHY it was important. They also helped me learn to perfect my reading skills.

[EFerrari]

91. My crazy school librarians let me check out anything I wanted.

That I'll never forget. They never giggled or were snide when I checked out something that was obviously too difficult. They were superb and made me feel like the library was my kingdom. I never got much of what and why. I got a big "go for it!" instead.

:)

ETA: I read before kinder, too, but in the Ice Age, reading wasn't taught in kindergarten. We did green worms turn into monarchs and so on. :)

[LeftyMom]

92. The school librarian at my first elementary school sorted things by grade level,

and I wasn't permitted to check out anything more than a grade level ahead. My Father came in and talked to her about it, because by the second grade I was in the fifth grade reading class (and that only because the sixth grade teacher didn't a bright six year old and the school wasn't about to set me on a bus for one subject a day- I tested somewhere in high school at that point and that wasn't really an option anyhow) and restricting me to what she felt were third grade books and below was extremely silly, but she wouldn't budge.

That situation never really did resolve itself, because we moved and I got a transfer to a school with a full day gifted program out of the deal, though I had to get moved up another grade to enter it. Luckily, that sort of thing was common enough at that school that a six year old in a class of third and fourth graders reading material that would interest an adult barely stuck out at all. It was, in retrospect, quite nice feeling relatively normal for four years of my life.

[EFerrari]

94. Once when I went home for lunch, I got chewed out royally

because the principal wanted my mom to meet with him. She was a single mom and this was a major catastrophe.

Oh, man. My mom yelled at me and told me to stop hanging out with the bad crowd. (I was in fifth grade.) Then, we went to the meeting and found out that Mr. March wanted to skip me a grade.

There was no "gifted" program in my district and I don't know if I would have been easy in one. I did, however, sometimes fake going to school and go up in the attic, after my mom left for work, with a few books, some juice and a pillow.

lol

[kwassa]

93. Veganized Thai iced tea?

What? Soy milk?

Can you get fries with that?

[LeftyMom]

95. Or coconut milk.

That's fantastic. And crazy fattening, but a nice treat sometimes.

I'm pretty sure they don't make fries at the Vietnamese place. ;)

[EFerrari]

87. I thank my teachers for encouraging me to keep fooling around with words.

Gawd knows, they had better things to do with their time. And especially Mrs. Smith who although claiming I must be Italian and not Latina, read books to us that I'd never have read otherwise coming from a no book home and who gave us a creative writing assignment every Friday afternoon.

Thank you, Mrs. Smith.

[REP]

89. Actually, my mother taught me to read

If the pay were better, the job might attract and retain better teachers. There are some - a close friend is one of the exceptions - but many teachers are like any other worker at any other job.

[Dappleganger]

99. Actually, I thank my LD therapist!

Because my teacher had no clue how to teach reading to the 20% of her class who learned differently in her classroom and chose to scream and yell at me for not pretending to read aloud in class.

I also taught each one of our children how to read and comprehend (am a certified reading tutor). Three using standard phonics and the other using Reading Reflex's methods. Each of them are voracious, successful students who read well above their grade levels.

BTW, I'll always be grateful to my mother who wouldn't be satisfied w/the status-quo and took on another part-time job just to get me the tutoring which was needed.

Edited for spelling. :)

[Tom_Foolery]

107. My mother started teaching me to read before I was out of diapers...

Of course, teachers deserve higher pay. For some kids, teachers are the only ones who care about them. Teachers have student loans to pay, and they have to continue their educations for their entire careers.

As a former news director, I've seen plenty of school board financial statements. It's amazing how much money school systems in my neck of the woods have. I think they can afford some pay raises.


I applaud all teachers.

[Dinger]

110. I Make $41,000 A Year (Positive Story Included here - You'll Like It, Trust Me)

And if I teach summer school, I make another $2,500 a year. Last year I spend $950 on my summer school class and got $100 back. I knew I wouldn't be reimbursed the full amount, but the kids have come to enjoy and look forward to the class I teach, and I will do whatever I can so they can learn and grow and enjoy their summer school experience. Yes, I could definitely use the money, but well, the kids you know. My school district has a very high poverty rate (80% +), and I try to do what I can, for the kids. I did have a cool experience this year during the holidays. If I could share a story . . .


For our winter holiday concert, there was a little girl in my class who I overheard telling another student that she didn't think that her family would make it. She lives with her mom, brother, and older sister. Mom is on SSi and money is very tight. This was the day before the concert, so I had to help fast if I could help at all. I talked to the little girl privately and asked her if she would make it ot the concert, and she said her mom has poor eyesight, and can't drive at night, and they didn't have "very much" gas in their car. I talked to our principal that day, and I said I could pick them up on the way to school, because it's on the way for me (sort of on the way anyway). She talked to the superintendent and it would have been fine if we had time to do the paperwork and check my vehicle, etc. She suggested that I could use the school car and just return the car in the morning, so that's what I did. Anyway, that evening turned out great. As we drove to school, I was visiting with mom and asked them if they got their Christmas tree yet. (I thought they had.) She said she was going to get one by herself from the woods near where they live, but she wasn't too sure about that. I told her that there was a tree farm right next to my house, and the trees were cheap (We got our 10 footer for $10), and that I'd be happy to get her one if she wanted me too. She liked that idea, so me and Mr. Dinger went and got one the next day and brought it over to their house. That was a neat experience. The little girl and her brother and sister were curious about Mr. Dinger. It was cute. Kids always like to hear about the lives of their teachers outside of school it seems. I introduced them, and we set the tree up for them. It was a Christmas memory I will remember for a very ling time.


Maybe I got a little off-topic there, but I thought you might like to hear about it. Peace.

:grouphug: :loveya: DU

[Dinger]

111. P.S. Thank You walldude : )

:)

[dugaresa]

112. you're great! i mean that!

people like you make me think that there is a chance for a better world

[Dinger]

114. Thank You dugaresa

and I mean that!:hug: