Did U.S. forces murder school boys last week in Kunar Province? Maybe.

[cali]

We just don't know yet. Are soldiers capable of doing so? Yes, atrocities are hardly unknown in this or any other war, but leaping to conclusions because they fit a narrative is a fool's errand. Here's a report on the situation.

Afghans Say Inquiry Shows Boys Were Killed in Allied Action


By ALISSA J. RUBIN and SANGAR RAHIMI
Published: December 30, 2009

KABUL, Afghanistan — Deepening a rift between allies, Afghan investigators on Wednesday sharply contradicted accounts by NATO officials about the deaths of 10 civilians in eastern Afghanistan, saying a visit to the remote site showed that nearly all those killed were school-age boys and one was an elderly man. They blamed international forces for the deaths.

Adam Ferguson for The New York Times

In Kabul on Wednesday, Afghans protested an allied raid in which 10 civilians were believed killed. Afghan investigators said nearly all were school-age children.



Army History Finds Early Missteps in Afghanistan (December 31, 2009)

NATO officials said earlier this week that all those killed last weekend in a joint operation by Afghan and international forces in a remote district of eastern Kunar Province were armed insurgents who smuggled bombs.

They backed away somewhat from those assertions on Wednesday, but said they had no information to substantiate the claims by an Afghan delegation that looked into the deaths. The NATO officials said they would undertake a joint investigation with the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai.

“We’ve not been briefed by the delegation; we have no way to corroborate those claims,” said Rear Adm. Gregory J. Smith, the director of communication for NATO and United States forces in Afghanistan.

“However, we’ve already talked to President Karzai and he’s agreed to a joint investigation” by an impartial panel, Admiral Smith said.

There remain a number of discrepancies in the accounts, from both Afghan and American officials, raising the possibility that the competing versions of events are far from complete and candid.

Nonetheless, on Wednesday, in a statement e-mailed to reporters, Mr. Karzai’s office left little doubt that the president believed that international forces had committed a serious crime against civilians, portraying an episode that, if substantiated, would make the deaths some of the most egregious of the war.

<snip>

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/world/asia/31afghan.html?_r=1

[BeFree]

1. You need proof?

What will you do when you get it?

[cali]

3. No, I need evidence that this crime was committed. Wildly unreasonable, I know.

And I'll continue doing what I can do to stop this obscene war- with or without evidence of this event, this war is killing civilians in increasing numbers and endangering our security, not enhancing it.

I know some of you can't bear it when people actually think for themselves, but live with it, honey.

[BeFree]

4. Fallujah.

Good for you, honey.

[cali]

5. What about Fallujah, darlin'?

Can you read. I said in the OP that atrocities have been committed. Fallujah, genius, is not evidence that U.S. forces abducted school boys in Afghanistan and murdered them. duh.

[Dreamer Tatum]

6. The proof, Cali, is that rules of evidence and logic are trumped by certain magical incantations:

example: "US Servicemen Accused Of..."

In that context, the word "accused" means "are known beyond any shadow of doubt to have done"

Is that clearer?

[cali]

7. This entire incident is murky. No one knows what has happened

but people need to believe the most heinous things possible to fit their narratives. I'm against this war whether this happened or not, but I do need evidence and not the lurid trash that gets posted.

[JonQ]

8. Why do you need proof?

You have an outrageous accusation against US troops, that means it is true.

Just like any statement made by the US that makes the taliban look bad is obviously psyops work by the CIA to discredit them.

Reality isn't based around so called "proof" it's based around what you want to believe.

[cali]

10. I think it's pathetic that people don't want to actually learn what happened

and will swallow flat out lies.

[hfojvt]

16. but it fits into what we already "know"

so it must be true, because we already know
1. our soldiers are murderers and terrorists
2. our President and other leaders are liars
3. our Empire is evil

[daleo]

22. What proof would be adequate?

What source would you believe and what standard of evidence would be enough to persuade you either way? A U.S. military tribunal? An Afghanistan government investigation? A U.N. inquiry?

I mean these as serious questions, not rhetorical.

Paul Simon said "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest". These incidents seem like prime examples of this phenomenon.

[stray cat]

9. Since when does someone on DU need prove or facts to express god-like opinions?

[Robb]

2. Sad to say, but we need to look at this in terms of Karzai.

...and where he's lining up.

Obama's people are making it increasingly clear they intend to bypass Karzai, and he doesn't want to be gone around. In the past he's positioned himself to the Afghan people as a conduit for U.S. aid, the shining beacon of Western light that will save them from darkness.

As that position becomes more tenuous, he needs a bogeyman. And if we're marginalizing him, and endangering his power, you better believe we're going to be it.

Edited to add: none of this is meant to diminish the atrocity that may have been committed here, merely to place it in context.

[IndianaGreen]

11. And you are relying on NY Times, the paper that told us Saddam had WMD

An Afghan investigation concluded civilians were killed, including young boys.

[cali]

12. It's sourced, but there are a good dozen other articles saying the same thing.

And the NYT still does quite a bit of good plain old reporting. In any case, I know you well enough to know that no source but Counterpunch or WSW will serve for you.

[IndianaGreen]

13. Unlike many in here suffering from selective amnesia, I never believed Saddam had WMD

[cali]

14. Neither did I. So the fuck what?

[IndianaGreen]

15. School children killed in coalition raid in Afghanistan, UN probe finds

You would know by now that the NY Times, a mouthpiece for the American oligarchy, would divert attention from the rising civilian casualties in AfPak wars.

You would also know that in the lead up to the war in Iraq, which both major parties supported, the British press and foreign news organizations such AFP and Al-Jazeera were debunking American and British claims of WMD as rapidly as they were being made.

Here we are again in a similar situation, in which the American and British governments continue to lie to their people in order to justify a war of imperialism under the guise of fighting terrorism.

School children killed in coalition raid in Afghanistan, UN probe finds

By Colin Perkel (CP) – 2 days ago

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan — A preliminary United Nations investigation has found that eight students were among 10 Afghan civilians killed in Kunar province on Sunday.

A statement Thursday by Kai Eide, special UN representative, says the deaths occurred during a raid by Afghan and international military forces in the province's Narang district.

"Based on our initial investigation, eight of those killed were students enrolled in local schools," Eide said.

"There is also evidence to strongly indicate that there were insurgents in the area at the time."

At the same time, Eide said, many details of the incident remained unclear.

The incident outraged President Hamid Karzai, and prompted demonstrations against the international coalition in several cities across Afghanistan.

Afghanistan's government on Thursday also demanded that those responsible for the deaths of "innocent youths" be turned over to its custody.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jZLcZIbVpHgLpHnS3KLbbQqfYsVQ

[Igel]

20. The problem's not what's said.

The problem is what's inferred.

School children, we assume, are innocent. However, that's our inference. They say age, we think of our innocent kids in 8th and 10th grade, and assume that everybody's like us. The kids may be innocent; they may not be. Kids as young as 13 have been suicide bombers in Pakistan and killed dozens. But 13 is 8th grade. And those kids were students.

Oh, I'm sorry. Let me use a synonym. They were talibs (well, tulub, but we don't break our plurals).

So one side is saying, "We killed insurgents, Taliban." The other is saying, "you killed teenager students." That the two don't clash is immaterial. Insurgents can only be men in their 30s, students must be innocent non-combatants. Silly inferences, made more silly by the lack of need to infer anything.

Does this mean that I think the US/NATO claims are right? Silly to suggest it. They make a claim, but it's unclear that it's true. Does that mean I think that the teens weren't insurgents? Nope. My opinion's immaterial, so I don't have one. No basis for one. No need to form one. Same for the UN's claim, mostly based on evidence given by people locally for whom vengeance, reimbursement, honor are plausibly more important than truth--I mean, it's true for Americans, why wouldn't it be true for Afghans? If the kids are innocents, they get reimbursed, they get to bash the outsiders, they get to say that they're innocent victims and wronged--and they get to deny that there were or are Taliban that they're working with. So, obviously, there's no pressure to shade the truth there. (No more than on the NATO/US side, at the very least.)

[Flaneur]

17. The Afghan people already (think they) know what happened.

That was the reason for the "Death to Obama" protests.

The damage has already been done. They will repay the deed with IEDs and bullets in the back.

While we sit here and say "not enough information."

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

18. if we weren't over there, this wouldn't happen

at least not by our hands.

[Flaneur]

19. That's the real bottom line.

[cali]

21. I completely agree with that.