One determined passenger with no weapons is a threat to an airliner.

[arcadian]

What will they do then? Cryogenic chambers for all passengers? The forward overhead baggage compartments of all planes usually hold equipment used by flight attendants, I've seen small oxygen tanks in those compartments, what if a passenger hopped up on PCP in berserker mode decided to take one of those metal tanks and start ramming it against the plastic windows of the jet until the windows broke? Passenger compartment depressurizes and the plane crashes.

[dysfunctional press]

1. good luck to that passenger.

first off- it would be an EXTREMELY difficult task to accomplish...
second- you've seen too many movies regarding depressurization and plane crashes.

[arcadian]

2. It's possible

Whacked out passenger = unknown variable

[dysfunctional press]

7. lots of things are 'possible' in a person's imagination.

the real world is a whole 'nother ball of wax.

[arcadian]

9. Would you have thought 4 planes could have been used as missiles

to destroy enormous sky scrapers before 9/11?

[cali]

10. yes. I certainly did think such a thing is possible

but since 9/11 airline passengers are a wee bit more wary of anyone on a plane trying to pull something off. Forget all the security bullshit, boxcutter wielding men wouldn't stand a chance today.

[dysfunctional press]

11. yes- and so did architects.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Obamanaut]

66. If YOU stay on the ground, it reduces the likelihood of a "whacked out passenger"

being on board by, er, one.

[hlthe2b]

3. The old "safety in numbers" adage comes into play...

While a gun can sometimes provide some equalizing effect when one person takes on 150 or more, but unarmed or even with a knife or handgun, chances are the lone determined passenger is going to lose out to the masses. Especially given that planes are crowded, which helps as that person is not going to have freedom of movement.

[arcadian]

5. You aren't taking into consideration the size restraints of a airplane's compartment.

Which would actually work in favor of somebody in a drug induced rage.

[Obamanaut]

84. Using techniques similar to cell extractions in a prison/jail - one

person in your aircraft assumes command, points to a passenger "you get the left leg", to another "you get the right leg", another "right arm", then "left arm" and they all go in together.

When the berserker is subdued, his legs and arms are restrained with belts from passengers.

Being in a confined space does not prohibit capture.

[hlthe2b]

103. Actually, I'd argue the opposite...

The guy would have no room to maneuver against 20-30 determined passengers/staff.

[cali]

4. not in this day and age. other passengers will not be passive.

[HipChick]

87. for all the chest beating going on, it was ironic that it was a dutch national that took on the terp

[NNN0LHI]

6. Remember that last attempted underwear bomber?

I am about as nonviolent as someone can be, but if I was on that plane with him he would have not gotten off alive. The hospital would still have us both trying to surgically remove my hands from his neck. Because in a situation like that I ain't letting go. Ever. That good old boy would have gotten his 97 virgins before we landed. Yep.

Don

[bertman]

22. And you would probably have been suffocated by the other fifteen guys trying to get at him.

[arcadian]

33. Those aisles can only accommodate one passenger at a time.

[pnwmom]

64. Between the passengers sitting next to him, behind him, and in front of him,

there would be enough to keep him from accomplishing the mission. Those windows are tough.

[arcadian]

74. What if it was a plane full of octogenarians?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

76. oh goody...another "what if"!!! sooooo fun!

if the plane is painted purple...would THAT make a difference? i think maybe the purple paint makes people extra strong and at the SAME TIME has a special corrosive agent developed just to weaken the seals on the windows so that it would kill them all. OH and don't forget...those octo-people might have their OWN OXYGEN tanks...he could use one of those so the terrorist hopped up on PCP won't even have to leave his seat!

AWESOME!

sP

[arcadian]

86. Passengers rising up and becoming vigilantes is a "what if".

Do you have a point?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

8. explosive decompression would not happen with the loss of one window

and the pilots would have plenty of time to get their masks on...you cannot bring down and airliner this way...

sP

[arcadian]

12. Sure would make it hard to fly an airplane, though.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

17. no...knocking a window out of a plane would NOT make it hard to fly

at least not something the size of an MD-80 or better...not even an CRJ would be a problem...

sP

[Name removed]

13. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FSogol]

14. I always imagine TSA agents taking Bruce Lee's nail clippers away from him

and letting him on the plane. ;-)

[wolfgangmo]

16. One determined nut with no weapons is mostly a threat to himself.

With the pilots door closed it would be pretty hard for anyone to get control of any plane. Sure they could damage those around them but that could happen anywhere.

You might as well postulate how one detrimined nut with nothing but plenty of detirmination and a good set of dentures could chew a train track in half causing a derailment.

[arcadian]

18. That is not an appropriate analogy.

[wolfgangmo]

49. Maybe not but it was kind of a funny mind picture.

There's grandpa, a determined teabagger with a great set of choppers paid for by medicare or the VA, with his cane beside him down by the tracks chewing like a coyote in a leg trap.

Your entire analogy is based on a falacy, that someone on drugs could; a)get control of the cockpit, b)grab one of the 1 lb. emergency medical oxygen containers and batter a window out, or c) rub his legs together so fast that they catch on fire and he then runs on his hands and uses his legs to light the drink cart on fire, all while the rest of the passengers just sit still and do nothing.

Heck, even the usual posturing John Wayne Americans (let's roll - a reference not to the original but to the fake statement repeated ad nauseum by "tough" guys would would be too busy pissing their pants if anything actually did happen around them) on the DU would eventually do something.

Got any more straw men you want to set up?

[Mz Pip]

19. They are called drunks

and it happens every once in a while. They can be quite disruptive and sometimes need to be restrained.

I would think a guy trying to get to the oxygen tanks would be met with the same resistance that the crotch bomber was met with - some very pissed and determined passengers. People aren't just going to sit by and let someone break a few windows.

[Fumesucker]

20. Recall the Aloha Airlines plane that lost a big chunk of the cabin

It landed safely..

Depressurization is not that big a hazard..






Edited for speling..

[arcadian]

23. Yeah, man, that's the flight I want to be on.

:rofl:

Really the point of the thread is to point out that anything could happen, and that picture points it out perfectly. A flight attendant was blown out of that plane. Tell me that if that didn't happened today due to a "terrorist incident" that it it wouldn't radically change the way that we fly.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

24. a lone terrorist (hell 10) without an expolosive COULD NOT DO THIS

however, a manufacturer or service contractor could through negligence...

sP

[arcadian]

25. So, you are saying that an airplane's passenger compartment while in flight is inescapable?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

26. nope...not even close...try reading

and stop posting preposterous bullshit threads.

sP

[arcadian]

27. lol

Damn, there sure are a lot of DUers with 100% certainty around here. I thought only freepers had those numbers.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

28. and there a quite a few DUers around here

posting bullshit and acting like there outrageously stupid post is somehow defensible. if you are having a problem identifying the type of person i am talking about you could look in a mirror and get a damned good idea.

sP

[arcadian]

29. Who the fuck are you again?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

30. i am me...who the fuck are you?

it's not my fault your OP is bullshit and you can't defend it...

sP

[arcadian]

32. another poster who absolutely must have the last word.

so tedious and predictable.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

34. and it makes me so happy to be able to continue this little exchange

with you because you still have nothing to back up your OP and you have to post inane bullshit like "who the fuck are you" and then get all pissy when you get an answer. you and you're ilk are fun. thanks for the smile today...it is good to know that people like you are out there!

sP

[arcadian]

35. You are the one who started with the personal attacks

Your credibility = gone

[ProdigalJunkMail]

36. exactly where did i attack YOU and not your stupid OP?

[arcadian]

38. upthread

"try reading
and stop posting preposterous bullshit threads"

[dionysus]

39. well, he's right. your scenario is laughable.

:shrug:

[arcadian]

41. Seriously? You are 100% certain that scenario is not possible?

I'll give you this, it's not likely, but I wouldn't say it's totally impossible. Is the Titanic unsinkable? Are jail cells escape proof too?

[dionysus]

43. i'd wager the odds are incredibly small

[ProdigalJunkMail]

44. none of that is what you originally posted

and yes, I would say, that if the plane in properly built and maintained that the scenario you originally posted is impossible. there would simply HAVE to be some extenuating circumstance to cause sufficient damage to bring down a plane or even create a disaster similar to the one pictured upthread.

sP

[arcadian]

51. Do you know the definition of "hypothetical situation"?

I'd wager that you don't

[ProdigalJunkMail]

53. i also know the difference between one and pure bullshit...

[arcadian]

55. .

[arcadian]

56. Do you?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

57. yes...you're post is not hypothetical in the sense that it might actually happen

and it is bullshit in the sense that it could never happen in the way you mention. does that clear it up for you?

sP

[arcadian]

59. Wow, so how do you obtain this knowledge?

Crystal ball? Tarot cards?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

61. basic understanding of aircraft construction

and a little physics...you might pick them up sometime if you finish high school...oh, THAT is a personal attack in case you were having a hard time identifying one. but it is only a hypothetical attack so no one can say anything bad about it.

sP

[arcadian]

63. Are you an aircraft engineer or physicist?

Please provide citation for your claims.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

67. you don't need to be an aircraft engineer or a physicist to

see your 'hypothetical' is bullshit. but if you want a citation of proof that it would not happen...just look at the picture of the Hawaiian Air plane above and ask yourself if the damage to that aircraft was worse than a lost window and if so, why didn't it crash and everyone on board didn't die.

sP

[arcadian]

69. Still waiting for you to back up your assertion.

Got nothing?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

72. you are the one asserting that a broken window will crash a plane

have YOU got anything? you might know that proving that something will never happen in the future is impossible...or maybe not. my bet is that you will now claim victory because of your request for a logical impossibility...

sP

[arcadian]

75. Yeah, I was the one speculating.

you are the one with 100% certitude about future events.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

78. i am certain YOUR OP is complete bullshit...yes

[arcadian]

81. Haven't we gone over this long enough?

It's clear that this has turned into a personal vendetta for you, as it has with many other posters in this thread.

[11 Bravo]

97. Would you two please get a fucking room and free up some bandwidth?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

98. but it has been soooo much fun...

[11 Bravo]

99. So it WAS good for you?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

100. flat out hot...

[11 Bravo]

101. In that case, by all means carry on!

[NoPasaran]

90. I think it's only fair

To ask you about your experiences bashing windows with oxygen tanks while hopped up on PCP.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

40. no, that is not an attack

it is a response to you attempting to put words in my mouth with the previous post. the response is that you READ what was written instead of making up stuff about what i actually said. and the recommendation to stop posting bullshit threads is once again about your post...not you.

i will wager you will fail to see this and make a pitiful attempt at making it about you.

sP

[arcadian]

42. Okay how about this?

You gonna claim this isn't a personal attack?

"if you are having a problem identifying the type of person i am talking about you could look in a mirror and get a damned good idea."

:rofl:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

46. nope...again...responding to a post of yours but you can keep claiming

i started it if you want. you're looking good on this one so keep it up (and providing a wonderful diversion)!

sP

[arcadian]

50. Still trying to get that last word, huh?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

52. watching you try is actually pretty fun...

especially since you still have nothing to post that isn't speculative bullshit. why don't you just admit that you little piece of mental masturbation went horribly wrong? you can't do it though...

sP

[arcadian]

54. yeah, that was the point of my post.

to point out that just walking outside your front door can put you in a dangerous situation and that every measure taken in the name of security can't anticipate an unknown variable. Sorry it flew over your head.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

58. you post was that someone could disable or cause a plane to crash

by bashing out a window with an oxygen container...it was so laughable as to miss the point you claim to have been trying to make.

sP

[arcadian]

60. So you are saying that scenario is absolutely 100% impossible?

And you say this with absolute certainty.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

62. no...but I am certain enough to say it is bullshit...

and the fact that you are trying to support it is a riot...once again, thanks for the diversion...

sP

[arcadian]

65. lol

:rofl:

oh man, "I'm certain, but maybe not..." again, hilarious.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

68. nope...not even close...try reading

what I said. it would not happen...but can I claim with 100% certainty that it would? no...but I cannot claim with 100% certainty that the universe will not wink out of existence in the time it takes me to post this message..but I can say that it won't with enough certainty to say "I'm certain."

You LOVE putting words in other peoples' posts, don't you.

FUN!

sP

[arcadian]

71. Man, talk about blowing things out of proportion.

:eyes:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

73. about as likely as your 'hypothetical' happening...do you have a point?

[arcadian]

77. Yeah, my point is that a person with no weapons could probably bring down an aircraft.

I was speculating. It's too bad you don't know the difference.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

79. you're speculation was dead wrong...

multiple people have pointed that out to you...but YOU are the one admitting that you have no clue what you're talking about in the OP...

sP

[arcadian]

80. Actually, come to think of it, I was just on a Continental Beechcraft 1900

And there wasn't even a door between the cockpit and the passenger compartment.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

82. once again...NOTHING to do with your OP

and now I have to go to a meeting. I shall truly miss our interaction here for the next couple of hours. maybe when i get back we can keep going. people like you make online-life worth living...

sP

[arcadian]

85. see ya later.

This post will be waiting for your response. :D

[Fumesucker]

31. The point being that knocking out a window is an extremely unlikely way to bring down a plane..

If the top of the fuselage coming off didn't bring down that plane the odds of a window being knocked out doing it are virtually nil.

Oh, and if you've ever tried to break Lexan, the plastic over the windows, it's incredibly tough and hard to break, I had some a couple of years ago and bent it completely double and then flexed it back and forth and couldn't break it..

Think how thin and tough a 2 liter soda bottle is and then imagine it several times thicker.. And soda bottles aren't even Lexan, they're a lesser plastic..

[dysfunctional press]

102. just knocking out the window in the first place is extremely unlikely.

if not impossible.

[dmallind]

48. That was just an experimental convertible 737. NT

[Fumesucker]

70. Dumbass pilot should have known better than to try and put the top down while moving..

:evilgrin:

[Heidi]

21. If I obsessed about stuff like that, I'd never fly.

Frankly, since I fly several times a year between Lugano and Geneva, I worry a great deal more about the very steep angle of ascent/descent out of and into Agno airport. I worry a great deal more about being rerouted from Geneva International to Malpensa (Italy). I worry about whether my husband is giving The Wiley and Excellent Boy Cat Named Ginger the attention he demands and deserves in my absence. I worry whether my boots are too pointy for a business meeting, whether there's cat hair on my coat, and whether I have airplane snack leftovers between my teeth when I walk into that meeting.

I don't worry too much about terrorists or extraordinarily "determined" passengers.

[NashVegas]

47. That's Not the Point

Anyone who wants to hurt you badly enough WILL hurt you. There's not very much you can do to stop it without creating a police state. And then you've got the police to worry about, they'll just do whatever the fuck they want.

[Heidi]

92. To be honest, I worry more about the police than I do about regular folks with mental problems

or a determination to kill me.

[dionysus]

37. ROFL

:rofl:

[Obamanaut]

45. "What if" can be strung out forever. "What if" a frog's ass wasn't so

close to the ground, would it still blow dust when it farted?

A plane can depressurize without crashing.

Would fellow passengers allow a berserker to hammer on a window until it broke? "What if" they stopped him?

unrec

[GoneOffShore]

83. Do you fly at all?

Really?

And do you like the TSA?

[arcadian]

88. Yeah, just got back from the Bahamas

I don't really mind the TSA, they aren't really that bad, they seemed like working class folks to me. I don't like the idea of the full body scans, but I think you can opt out of those.

[GoneOffShore]

105. It's all 'Security Theater'.

And there's plenty of "mission creep" with the TSA. They are arrogant bastards with an inflated sense of their own importance.

TSA = Thousands Standing Around.

[crispini]

89. Epic thread is epic.

Don't mind me, I just feel strangely compelled to post in this thread before it's locked. :popcorn:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

93. taking a quick meeting break

and i could not help but look...i LOVE this thread...totally enabled me to have something to do this morning while installing software...sooooo fun!

i hope you have enjoyed it!

sP

[Vickers]

91. Maybe he will use his kung fu skills to chop the plane in half?

:shrug:

Hey, Chris Matthews thinks it's possible!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

This thread is AWESOME!!!

[Oldtimeralso]

94. I can tell you with almost an absolute degree of certainty..

that this is impossible. As for credentials, I obtained a Federal Aviation Administration certification as an airframe and powerplant mechanic in 1968 and worked in the field either full or part time for 40 years.

[Vickers]

95. Nice try, pal. I bet you never did any of that WHILE YOU WERE HIGH ON PCP!!!!!!!!!

:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

96. unless you can be 100% certain...

you have nothing...according to the OP...i hope you have scans of all your credentials and certifications...otherwise you will be put down as an internet hack who just doesn't know anything...

man, I love this thread...and this meeting sucks...as does typing on a blackberry

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

104. Surely someone will slap a carotid choke on him and then restrain him.