I'm still for killing the HCR bill.

[coti]

Especially now that they're trying to ping-pong it. There won't be any more attempts to improve it.

The argument for killing the bill is not that it doesn't have enough "good things" or "things for progressives" in it. The argument is that it commits us for decades and decades into the future to a healthcare system dominated by mostly unregulated private insurance companies. The industry lobby will ensure- just as they are doing now- that our government will never be able to get their premiums, co-pays, deductibles and profits under control. There is no systemic, "upside" trade-off to it.

In other words, this bill not only doesn't improve our healthcare system, it damages it. We're going to be worse off than we were before. Farther away from where we need to go than before.

Doing nothing- for the moment- is better than passing this bill.


I'm not even getting into its election implications.


This bill is a huge, huge mistake. We'll be dealing with its negative effects long after we're out of Iraq.

[Warpy]

1. Only the luxury of youth and good health could provoke this

kind of thinking. You really think nothing is better.

I'll ask you again when you've had nothing for a couple of decades because you had the astonishingly bad luck to get sick.

Trust me, it's a lot better than nothing. It's also the best we'll get until we get all the conservative dead wood out of Congress.

I think within ten years or so, the insurance industry will be crying to extend Medicare to get the older and sicker people off their hands. There's just enough in this bill to stall their gravy train and they'll want it back.

[coti]

3. That's short term thinking. In the long run, it's going to cost more lives

because the financial costs are going to skyrocket. And we're all on the hook now.

I have a hard time believing that, as long as the checks are rolling in, the insurance industry is ever going to ask for more competition from the government.

[Warpy]

5. Then you clearly need to do a bit more reading.

While the final bill isn't available yet as it's still being discussed, what we do know is that insurance companies won't be able to cherry pick only healthy clients, won't be able to cap benefits, won't be able to price gouge non group clients, and will likely lose the antitrust exemption they got when they were non profits. Their business model will be no more.

You are in error here.

[blues90]

6. The final bill ? Not to cause discourse but the final bill

reminds me of the turd that finally came out and dropped in the bowl.

What we have here is a bill that no one will know what's in it until they pass it and who knows if it won't get killed .

It's a give away to the ins industry and nothing less.

Do you actually trust these paid off politicians who took close to a year to screw this thing so far up the peoples ass that it will actually help anyone or save anyone from the ins industry death grip?

[coti]

13. You're missing the point. With the exception of your mistaken statement that

the insurance companies are going to lose their anti-trust exemption- the exemption will remain, last I heard- none of what you just mentioned is a cost-control mechanism. Without competition from the government or much tighter regulation, premiums are going to continue rising at an extremely high rate. Note that I'm not even pointing directly to profits as the culprit, although systemically a 3% profit margin is a huge ineffeciency when you're trying to get everyone in the country healthcare.

Even the points you did make aren't the whole story. Insurers are still going to be able to price out the historically least desirable insurees (those who are older are quite often the least healthy), who will then be slapped with tax penalties. High deductibles and co-pays remain as methods to actively discourage use of insurance by the poor, as well. Not to mention that the enforcement of all these regulations is being left to the state insurance boards, who are notoriously corrupted and ineffective.

The fact remains, and this is not being discussed enough, that it is not the ultimate goal of corporations to provide a good product to their customers. Their goal- their duty to their shareholders- is to maximize revenue while minimizing the cost of doing so, also called maximizing their profits. Trying to use corporations as a vehicle for providing healthcare to Americans, without the required competition or regulation, is a fundamentally flawed plan that will not decrease costs or save lives over time.

[truedelphi]

19. I see this bill as having sky rocketing costs.

With no regulating of how well We the Over Burdened Consumers will be served. No one involved in the process cared enough about the consumers to get the inflated prices rolled back.

I see this bill as ensuring that health care as a whole will become "Kaiser-ized."

You will get to see a health practitioner, but if you are just on the usual plan, your treatment will not be what is best for you. Unless of course, you are paying for the 'boutique' policies.

[Jamastiene]

20. I hadn't even thought about it from that angle.

"I think within ten years or so, the insurance industry will be crying to extend Medicare to get the older and sicker people off their hands."

Interesting angle.

[earthside]

2. Me, too.

If the anti-trust exemption stays in, if drug re-importation stays out, if the insurers can charge up to 300 percent for existing conditions, if the mandate to buy corporate insurance stays in, if taxing union negotiated plans stays in ... well, it is worse than what we have now.

Of course, politically, the mandate with a fine for non-compliance is going to absolutely kill federal Democratic candidates this fall.

[coti]

4. Kick nt

[spanone]

7. gotta start somewhere

[jgraz]

9. No, you don't.

You need to start somewhere sensible.

[Kansas Wyatt]

8. Kill the HCR/SHIT Bill

It's Insurance Care NOT Health Care Reform. It locks in very little help, while forcing Americans to buy an overpriced worthless product. When the Republicans finally get back in power of ANYTHING, they will cut and gut what help is there, while using it to tax the middle class (cadillac plans) even more than the DLC bastards are doing now. Oh, and when they do jack up taxes for the middle class with it, expect to see another tax break for the rich. They have only built a foundation for the Republicans to exploit later, and yes, it will happen.

[amborin]

10. +100000

[leftstreet]

11. [phone]

[ProSense]

12. You're not going to get what you want. n/t

[coti]

14. Are you? What exactly is your horse in this?

What would YOU like to see in a healthcare bill? Do you care at all what passes?

[AllentownJake]

16. Nope, it just needs a D next to it

She'll find a way to spin it as teh awesome.

[AllentownJake]

15. Yeah, I was for killing the House Bill

With the fake public option even though it got rid of pre-existing conditions right away.

As a package, the Senate Bill, is the democratic party pissing on you.

[Faryn Balyncd]

17. k and r. thanks for post.

[greeneyedboy]

18. not to mention the restrictions on women's rights to reproductive health care n/t.