Bottom line? It's either Obama and the dems or Romney/Palin/? and the repukes

[cali]

And I do see differences between them. Big one. That's why I'll be supporting dems in 2010 and Obama in 2012 (unless he does something like launch an attack on Iran). Because things can be worse and with the repukes in charge that's guaranteed.

So call me a "lesser of two evils" voter or whatever, but I'll be sticking with the dems despite anger and disappointment.

[texastoast]

1. So sad that we don't have other options

I'm very disappointed, but I see no other choice except to become an expat.

[cali]

3. Well, though the national political scene sucks

I'm pretty good with politics on the state and local level where I live.

[TornadoTN]

2. It's a shame too. Why do Democrats only get serious when they are out of power

And then regress into spineless wimps, full of excuse after excuse of why they can't do the things they've promised to do after they regain power?

But you are right. That's the sad, damning reality that we live in today.

[elmerdem]

14. What? serious out of power?

don't kid yourself, they were just as spineless then.

[TornadoTN]

16. Yes, but at least they were able to sell the facade

Now they can't even sell it well enough to convince anyone that what they are doing are in the best interests of this country.

[AlinPA]

37. It doesn't look like Dems are in power; republicans and blue dogs are controlling

a lot now.

[rudy23]

4. Voting for the lesser of two evils is one thing. Working, volunteering, and spreading the word...

that's another thing.

And who knows, maybe the next Dem who is NOT the lesser of two evils hasn't emerged yet.

[cali]

7. I think it's the political system and environment more than any individual

[bigtree]

5. damn right. We should stick with this president and Dem Congress over any republican

. . . shame this has to be argued here.

[cali]

10. it is a shame. it's just so basic.

[winyanstaz]

27. NO...we can chose another dem.

Yes we can.

[bigtree]

29. I believe a significant primary challenge would doom our party's chances in a second-term election

I'll fight that prospect to the end.

[winyanstaz]

40. I believe both republicans and democrates are SICK

of the same ol same ol..and a change has a good chance.
Propping up a failure is always a sure way to continue down a bad road to a bad end.

[Touchdown]

56. So... Don't change pale horses in mid-apocalypse?

Got it!:hi:

[LoZoccolo]

6. Recommended; so many Palin Democrats want to become an hero. n/t

[mmonk]

8. Such is the prison of a lesser of two evils system

and Ralph Nader is right, Democratic voters will fight and kick for eventually nothing and go back to the this one is not as bad as that one voting system come election time. In the mean time, serious problems remain unaddressed.

[cali]

11. I don't agree with him. at all. I don't think he's part of the solution.

and I do see distinct and important differences all over the place between dems and repukes.

[mmonk]

20. I don't either except maybe as a Senator. He would do some good

in such an office. Right now, the country is in desperate shape. It needs to go back into our tradition and find an FDR, someone with moral courage, to put the DLC out to pasture as far as policy goes and put the people and their welfare back on center stage like Democrats of the past.

[bigtree]

13. but, oh man

. . . didn't we see just how much worse it can get with republicans in the majority? I seriously feared for the life of the planet during Bush's term.

[mmonk]

28. Yes. In fact, I considered it when our country as we have known

it in our generation, became something else. That is why we need a pendulum swing. A DLC run party is not capable of it, at least so far. But we will still keep fighting.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

9. Yeah, that's reality.

:shrug:

[Cary]

12. You have complete control over your own attitude ~ Cary

A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. ~Herm Albright, quoted in Reader's Digest, June 1995


Attitudes are contagious. Are yours worth catching? ~Dennis and Wendy Mannering


Wherever you go, no matter what the weather, always bring your own sunshine. ~Anthony J. D'Angelo, The College Blue Book


If you don't get everything you want, think of the things you don't get that you don't want. ~Oscar Wilde


Life is a shipwreck but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats. ~Voltaire


I had the blues because I had no shoes until upon the street, I met a man who had no feet. ~Ancient Persian Saying


If you don't think every day is a good day, just try missing one. ~Cavett Robert


It's so hard when I have to, and so easy when I want to. ~Annie Gottlier


Oh, my friend, it's not what they take away from you that counts. It's what you do with what you have left. ~Hubert Humphrey


Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference. ~Winston Churchill


Every day may not be good, but there's something good in every day. ~Author Unknown


The sun shines and warms and lights us and we have no curiosity to know why this is so; but we ask the reason of all evil, of pain, and hunger, and mosquitoes and silly people. ~Ralph Waldo Emerson


To be interested in the changing seasons is a happier state of mind than to be hopelessly in love with spring. ~George Santayana


Happiness is an attitude. We either make ourselves miserable, or happy and strong. The amount of work is the same. ~Francesca Reigler


If you don't like something change it; if you can't change it, change the way you think about it. ~Mary Engelbreit


So often time it happens, we all live our life in chains, and we never even know we have the key. ~The Eagles, "Already Gone"


We find things where we look for them, which is why I never look for a golf ball out of bounds. ~Robert Brault, www.robertbrault.com


He who has so little knowledge of human nature as to seek happiness by changing anything but his own disposition will waste his life in fruitless efforts. ~Samuel Johnson


I've decided that the stuff falling through the cracks is confetti and I'm having a party! ~Betsy Cañas Garmon, www.wildthymecreative.com


The only people who find what they are looking for in life are the fault finders. ~Foster's Law


Think big thoughts but relish small pleasures. ~H. Jackson Brown, Jr., Life's Little Instruction Book


Every thought is a seed. If you plant crab apples, don't count on harvesting Golden Delicious. ~Bill Meyer


We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. ~Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan, 1893


Blessed is he who expects nothing, for he shall never be disappointed. ~Attributed to both Jonathan Swift and Benjamin Franklin


To be upset over what you don't have is to waste what you do have. ~Ken S. Keyes, Jr., Handbook to Higher Consciousness


Defeat is not bitter unless you swallow it. ~Joe Clark


The only disability in life is a bad attitude. ~Scott Hamilton


If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm. ~Vince Lombardi


My riches consist not in the extent of my possessions, but in the fewness of my wants. ~J. Brotherton


There is nothing so easy but that it becomes difficult when you do it reluctantly. ~Publius Terentius Afer


I don't like that man. I must get to know him better. ~Abraham Lincoln


Just because you're miserable doesn't mean you can't enjoy your life. ~Annette Goodheart


In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer. ~Albert Camus, Lyrical and Critical Essays


Let us rise up and be thankful, for if we didn't learn a lot today, at least we learned a little, and if we didn't learn a little, at least we didn't get sick, and if we got sick, at least we didn't die; so, let us all be thankful. ~Buddha

[cali]

17. I'm not quite sure how your post pertains to the point I made

which was not really about "attitude".

[Cary]

19. You don't consider your "anger and disappointment" to be an attitude?

If you want to understand my post, you will.

[LooseWilly]

32. cliched platitudes ad nauseum... add "lesser of two evils" to the list...

[Cary]

33. Meaning what?

You don't think your attitude matters?

I have been successful my whole life and every one of my successes started with and hinged upon my attitude. I don't go into things with an attitude like "yeah I suck but I suck less than the other guys."

Maybe that's how you find success, but I doubt it.

[LooseWilly]

47. Meaning that cliched platitudes are... cliched platitudes.

If you are a fan of self-hypnosis in the form of "positive attitude maintenance", hey, knock yourself out.

Just because you find it matters to you, however, doesn't mean that it means shit to anyone else... any more than saying "God Bless You" means anything to a non-Christian.

And I do suck, and I have, further, come to the conclusion that I do suck less than the other <people>- well, many times out of ten anyway.

It might do you well to consider that your personal attitude neurosis doesn't apply to everyone else... and I'd appreciate it if you not try to foist it upon me.

That said... I meant to draw the parallel between what I see as cliched platitudes and the biggest cliche platitude that I see around this board, to wit, "you have to vote for the lesser of two evils, no matter what flaws the Democratic candidate may have, because doing anything else is a vote for the Republicans- which means that you want Sarah Palin for President..."

I thought the ad nauseum piling up of platitudes served as an elegant illustration of the hollowness of the "lesser of two evils" theory.

I suppose I should've realized that, just as there are adherents to the "lesser of two evils" theory, there would be adherents of platitudinal attitudious mind massage therapies. Once again, I display my suckitudinous ways...

Carry on.

[Cary]

51. But you can foist your cliched platitudes neurosis on me?

At least I have a list of famous people with whom I agree. What do you have?

[LooseWilly]

53. I have my own words, rather than a list of words of other people to nod and agree with.

I'm not trying to foist anything on you. I am simply judging you, because I am an awful human being. Since the judgement is accompanied neither with the power to enforce any form of penalty, nor even the inclination to bother even were it accompanied by said power... I will presume that you can live with it. Technically- another judgement made about you. Because, I am still an awful human being.

And, just a little food for thought: Rush Limbaugh is a famous person. Hell, Hitler is famous too. Does agreeing with one of them make one more right than if one speaks with one's own words? I, personally, would rather have my own words than those of either of those famous people to agree with.

:+

[Cary]

54. I have my own words and a list of fine, famous people

Too, I don't have to stoop to using a silly device like sarcasm or invoking odious names like Rush Limbaugh or Adolph Hitler.

Is this really the best you can do?

[LooseWilly]

55. I invoked no sarcasm, as I recall.

I was being frank, for once.

Odious names like Rush Limbaugh and Adolph Hitler are famous. Are you going to deny their respective fame?

You say you have your own words, but as I recall your words were all quotes. Quotes are not your words, they are the words of others that you are borrowing. Please... do share some of your own words.

The best I can do? Hardly. This is just me trying to hip you to a perspective in as brief and easy a manner as possible... having presumed that you would at least know of the existence of the perspective I am trying to elucidate somewhat haphazardly... and with as little actual "infringement" into the "neo-new-age-positive-thinking-self-congratulating-pseudo-actualization" world view (which I know of, though obviously hold little personal respect for) which seems to be where you are coming from.


I would, of course, need to know more of the specifics of the neo-new-age stuff that you seem to think is real before I could do "better". It's hardly worth my time, and the project doesn't much interest me... but, as I have said a number of times before, I am really an awful human being... and this topic is really a hot button issue with someone close to me... so I would suggest you just accept my claim of indifference to your perspective. I'm really not looking to expend the effort to condemn your entire worldview... but I've had more free time than usual lately... so, let's just call me an asshole and walk away... before the implicit superiority tone of your worldview drives me over the edge and I begin saying things that you'll regret... simply because, as I've repeatedly said, I am at heart a complete asshole.

Your call...

[Cary]

57. Games, games, games . . .

Glad to hear this isn't your best and I wish you a speedy recovery.

Don't call me, I'll call you. ;)

[laughingliberal]

15. I think there is a world of room there which is being ignored

How about we could keep the President but hold his feet to the fire and fight for the policies we want? Or is that also forbidden?

[cali]

18. hey, where did I say anything about not criticizing him or dems

or "holding their feet to the fire"- whatever that actually means? Or are you just looking to play the oh poor me, I'm not even allowed to criticize the president card?

[laughingliberal]

25. I don't do the 'poor me' thing

But the Palin or Obama meme has been being played out here among some who jump on any criticism of the President and accuse us of wanting Palin. It is possible to criticize the President's policies and still not be for Palin. If you have not seen that, you're not reading much, here. If you don't care for "holding their feet to the fire," maybe pressuring them to do what they campaigned on doing.. Is that clearer? More help for main street (that's those of us not in the upper 1%) and a little more accountability for Wall Street would be a goal.

[Zenlitened]

42. How can one simultaneously hold a politican's feet to the fire while...

... guaranteeing him/her one's vote?

:shrug:

[Zenlitened]

52. Oh well. I was honestly hoping to see an answer. (n/t)

[GreenArrow]

38. what leverage do we have, really?

We can withold money, or we can donate money to interest groups, and we can withold votes. That's really about it.

[Parker CA]

21. K&R.

[dmallind]

22. Pretty much

Until one or the other party splits, this will remain the case under our system of government.

If the best that can be achieved is a reduction in harm (and this is assuming complaints about current Dems being harmful are true, which is at the very least a stretch) between two options, then that is a better choice than more harm.

We only have two options and will have until one goes the way of the Whigs. We'll STILL probably only have two choices then but it's possible they will be different choices.

[Cary]

23. We have two parties for a reason

It's an obvious reason. It's not going to change and the parties aren't going to split.

I don't understand why so many here refuse to understand this obvious point.

[JuniperLea]

24. Yep...

We have to work within our means, and with what we have. I'm really tired of the "yay team" attitude around here, all or nothing, and my pom poms are bigger than yours. I see no conflict between supporting a party and simultaneously holding their feet to the fire whenever needed. It's no more difficult than walking and chewing gum at the same time, really.

[winyanstaz]

26. no...it does NOT have to be either ..or,......

We the people CAN vote in independent dems that are not bought and sold already.

[spoony]

30. Why if he attacked Iran?

Wouldn't you bailing on him then leave us with the same consequences you're warning about? Presumably you're saying you have a line and if he goes over it, you're done with him right? Other people have different lines, some have either been crossed or are near to being crossed. For you it might be Iran, for others their "Iran" might be our actions bombing Yemen and Pakistan, or HCR.

[leftstreet]

31. +1 Good question n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

34. Honey, is this the thread you talked to me about?

If it is, please tell me who you know, who is also a Democrat, who is now saying they're going to vote for Palin?

Cuz if you can't name them, you're full of shit. And unless you can name LOTS of them, you're stirring shit.

Sugarpie.

[cali]

41. gosh genius, I thought even you could figure this out. how pathetic that you can't, honeypie.

here let me help you, dumpling. I didn't suggest that anyone here would contemplate voting repub. The inference was that people here, as they've been saying, would sit it out. The result, stinky, of enough dems sitting it out or voting third party is a repub president. duh.

and I leave the shit dabbling, smearing and stirring to you, stinkums. You're so good at it.

[Stinky The Clown]

46. Thanks for making my point, ookie ookums

My thread wasn't a counter to this since it talked to people who would vote repubican and you didn't.

See how that works ........ pumpkin pie?

[Fire1]

35. I think even the supporters are disappointed to some degree

but I don't know anybody dumb enough to vote repuke. I think they'd stay home first.

edit to add: You know I'm voting for him, regardless. K&R

[elocs]

36. Progressives--get used to it. You will be promised whatever is needed to get your votes

and if that doesn't work you will be simply told you have not choice because what is the alternative--Republican?

No, I don't want Republican, but I would sure like the Obama candidate to be the Obama president. I would love to have a president who leads with passion and fire for our strong beliefs and who would fight hard to attain them without resorting to nearly endless compromise and bipartisanship.

Republicans do view bipartisanship as another word for date rape and you will get nothing by continuing to compromise your beliefs to get their support because they will take all they can get and then still stick it to you. How did Republicans for 6 years under Bush when they were in the majority, but with nowhere near 60 votes in the Senate manage to get nearly anything Bush wanted? They did it with the help of Democrats who were more than willing to compromise their beliefs.

I would rather have a president and a party who would fight tooth and nail to the mattress for what they believed in and lose rather than have the philosophy that nothing is too important to be compromised or watered down to get something. Republicans now have the Democrats mark and measure and the next 3 years will not be fun, especially with the gains the Republicans are likely to make in this year's election.

[joeybee12]

39. And this is the defeatist attitude that Rahm is counting on...kick us in the

teeth, and we stand up and say, please sir, I'd like some more. As long as they know we won't desert them, they'll treat us like shit, just like a weak person in a co-dependent relationship.

[freddie mertz]

43. But, but... I read right here that my vote doesn't count...

Which is it?

[TheKentuckian]

44. Absolutely right, as long as we keep it in our heads that

the lesser of two evils is still evil. That means we can't continue to eat shit and say it's cotton candy. Giving them the impression they don't have to earn our votes is nearly as dangerous as having the crazies at the wheel.

I think we have to accept some losses on legislation rather than caving for crumbs to display even an plausible illusion that we aren't safe votes. We got to make them herd the cats rather than setting the foxes in charge of the henhouse.

There is no track record of playing not to lose being a winning strategy over the long term. Especially, when the negotiation is nominally with yourself.

[GeorgeGist]

45. pffft

loser

[sendero]

48. There are differences..

.... too bad they are not significant enough to get me to bother to vote.

Fuckit, if this is the best we can do I DON'T GIVE A SHIT.

[depakid]

49. If things continue as they have been- and expecially if the economy does a double dip

with relatively high unemployment and underemployment, an ostensibly competent and ostensibly moderate Republican like Romney has a damn good chance.

If gas prices shoot up to $5 -$6 bucks a gallon- then it's likely game over.

Too bad so much of that health insurance bill won't kick in 'til 2014 (or from the Republican perspective- a damn good thing).

[krabigirl]

59. Romney is no moderate. nt

[blues90]

50. So. Vote for the dems , hope you know we have a one party

System with a few good dems. None of them will get us out of these wars or repair the constitution. Obama is certainly no prize either. What the hell has he done that has changed anything that the working class hero can put in the bank?

Go ahead vote for the chosen candidates that are set there for you and everyone else.

Why even post such drivel as if you have some voice that no one else has.

[krabigirl]

58. Yep, same here, sadly. I will NEVER vote for anyone who will let a Repuke back in office.

People have no idea what it will be like when one of those fundies gets back in. It's bad now, but it can get 1,000,000 times worse.

[Kansas Wyatt]

60. Neither...

3rd Party and I will no longer contribute PAC deductions from paychecks to go to the Democratic Party. Nor will I ever again tell anyone that it is always better to vote for the Democrat or help GOTV.

NAFTA
DLC/HCR SHIT Bill
Obama Union Busting through the DLC/HCR SHIT Bill

Insanity is repeating the same mistake over and over, expecting a different result. The proof of what that mistake has been is in now... NEVER AGAIN!

[tekisui]

61. That is the political reality. Really all we have is our

own ability to pressure the Dems and Obama into moving in our direction. But, our ability is nothing compared to those who hold the levers of power.