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Damnit People, IGNORE THE SPIN. Inform yourselves about what the AWFUL "Cadillac Tax" MEANS for YOU

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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:14 PM
Original message
Damnit People, IGNORE THE SPIN. Inform yourselves about what the AWFUL "Cadillac Tax" MEANS for YOU
It will hit many MIDDLE CLASS health plans, and lead to lessening of coverage - thus the "cost cutting". Obama prefers this to taxing the FAT CATs, as the House plan would. NYT's Bob Herbert explains it well. Below are additional links to AFL-CIO, USA Today, Huffington Post.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C02E0DE...

A Less Than Honest Policy

By BOB HERBERT
Published: December 29, 2009

There is a middle-class tax time bomb ticking in the Senate's version of President Obama's effort to reform health care.

The bill that passed the Senate with such fanfare on Christmas Eve would impose a confiscatory 40 percent excise tax on so-called Cadillac health plans, which are popularly viewed as over-the-top plans held only by the very wealthy. In fact, it's a tax that in a few years will hammer millions of middle-class policyholders, forcing them to scale back their access to medical care.

Which is exactly what the tax is designed to do.

The tax would kick in on plans exceeding $23,000 annually for family coverage and $8,500 for individuals, starting in 2013. In the first year it would affect relatively few people in the middle class. But because of the steadily rising costs of health care in the U.S., more and more plans would reach the taxation threshold each year.

Within three years of its implementation, according to the Congressional Budget Office, the tax would apply to nearly 20 percent of all workers with employer-provided health coverage in the country, affecting some 31 million people. Within six years, according to Congress's Joint Committee on Taxation, the tax would reach a fifth of all households earning between $50,000 and $75,000 annually. Those families can hardly be considered very wealthy.

Proponents say the tax will raise nearly $150 billion over 10 years, but there's a catch. It's not expected to raise this money directly. The dirty little secret behind this onerous tax is that no one expects very many people to pay it. The idea is that rather than fork over 40 percent in taxes on the amount by which policies exceed the threshold, employers (and individuals who purchase health insurance on their own) will have little choice but to ratchet down the quality of their health plans.

These lower-value plans would have higher out-of-pocket costs, thus increasing the very things that are so maddening to so many policyholders right now: higher and higher co-payments, soaring deductibles and so forth. Some of the benefits of higher-end policies can be expected in many cases to go by the boards: dental and vision care, for example, and expensive mental health coverage.


-edit-

We all remember learning in school about the suspension of disbelief. This part of the Senate's health benefits taxation scheme requires a monumental suspension of disbelief. According to the Joint Committee on Taxation, less than 18 percent of the revenue will come from the tax itself. The rest of the $150 billion, more than 82 percent of it, will come from the income taxes paid by workers who have been given pay raises by employers who will have voluntarily handed over the money they saved by offering their employees less valuable health insurance plans.

-edit-


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C02E0DE...
******

Health Care Reform Tax Hits More Chevys Than Caddies

by Mike Hall, Jan 7, 2010

-edit-

Backers of the tax say it would impact only “Cadillac plans” but the Economic Policy Institute (EPI) calls that an “urban legend.” Says EPI economist Josh Bevins:

The excise tax proponents say their target is a Cadillac, but in reality they’re about as likely to hit a Chevy. The excise tax is not a progressive levy on lavish plans. Instead it’s a tax that will hit small businesses, older workers, and those most in need of health care the hardest.

-edit-
National Nurses United (NNU), the largest registered nurses union in the country, calls the tax scheme “unconscionable” and says working families “would have their health coverage taxed and seriously eroded,” if it is enacted.

-edit-

the excise tax on insurance—especially in contrast to surtax on the rich—proves to be just as bad as policy as it is politically. It’s intellectually bankrupt and widely despised.
-edit

http://blog.aflcio.org/2010/01/07/health-care-reform-tax-hits-more-chevys-than-caddies/

*******
'Cadillac Tax' in Health Plan Would Hit Middle Class Hard
Posted:
12/17/09

Jim Huber, 59, calls himself "a union dirt guy." He has worked in the same Maryland steel mill for 41 years, where his father and grandfather worked before him and where his son now works, too.

Huber makes a base salary of $42,000 per year as an electrician in the plant. He drives a Ford pick-up truck and lives in a row house across the street from the house where he grew up. Although he had hoped to retire from the mill years ago, a bankruptcy at his company slashed his pension by more than half. "It looks I won't get out of here until I'm 65," he said.

Huber, who is also a United Steel Workers benefits representative, said that based on the health benefits they receive, he and every worker at his plant would be hit by the excise tax on insurance companies now moving through the Senate as a part of health care reform.

"The government is going to put together a plan of health care for everyone, but they can't tax the guy that's pulling the cart." he said.

The levy has been dubbed the "Cadillac tax," but research shows it would likely affect a broad swath of Americans regardless of their income, which could indeed amount to the tax on the middle-class that President Obama promised would not happen under his administration. The tax is a growing source of anxiety for Huber and his co-workers, but also for Democrats in the House, who vow to strip the measure out of the bill in conference or consider bringing the bill down altogether.

The confusion surrounding the tax comes from its complexity and the luxury car it is named for. When President Obama first raised the idea of taxing insurance companies this summer, he framed it as one way to get Wall Street executives to pay their fair share. Obama told PBS' Jim Lehrer he wanted to target "super, gold-plated Cadillac plans." Days later, Obama's senior adviser David Axelrod told The New York Times the administration wanted to tax benefits "like the ones that the executives at Goldman Sachs have, the $40,000 policies."

At the time, Obama said he did not want the tax to hit middle-class families, but when the bill emerged from the Senate Finance Committee in September, it proposed charging insurance companies and a 40 percent excise tax for high-dollar -- but not exactly gold-plated -- plans. The bill now calls for the tax to apply to plans exceeding $8,500 for individuals and $23,000 for families, for the cost of combining health savings accounts, medical, prescription drugs, dental, vision, etc. The tax is charged to insurance companies, but it is widely assumed they would pass it on to employers.
-edit-


"The middle class can't afford another tax," he said. "Let them get it from the Bush folks, the 1 percent that's been enjoying the tax cuts. Get it from them."

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/12/17/cadillac-tax-in-health-plan-would-hit-middle-class-hard?icid=sphere_blogsmith_inpage_sphere

****


Health Care: Tax Which Cadillac?

-edit-
Never mind that the idea is the very one about which candidate Barack Obama ripped apart candidate John McCain. Now President Obama and the Senate Democrats are ripping it off because heaven forbid they'd otherwise have to finance some of the health care reforms with a higher levy on the wealthy.
-edit-

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-franken/health-care-tax-which-cad_b_414518.html
*****

Is tax on 'Cadillac' health insurance plans fair?

By Carla K. Johnson, The Associated Press
Schoolteacher Kinzi Blair makes only $46,000 a year, but she has what many would consider a "Cadillac" health plan, now targeted for a big tax increase by health reformers.

She has $10 copays and no deductible. She gets generic prescription drugs for $10. Her plan covers mental health counseling, organ transplants, acupuncture. It covers speech therapy for preschoolers and in vitro fertilization.

-edit-

Taxing plans like hers is unfair, says Blair, a kindergarten teacher in San Jose, Calif. Like 57% of Americans surveyed in a recent Associated Press poll, she favors a new income tax on wealthy Americans, which the House would impose in its bill to pay for expanding insurance coverage to millions.

-edit-

The tax on high-dollar health plans would hit only a few very wealthy Americans and many more in the middle class, experts agree. But it also might bring down health care costs by discouraging companies from offering coverage with so many benefits.

-edit-
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-11-25-insurance-reform_N.htm

********
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. Of course it includes many of us - its meant to control costs
and pay for those who need subsidized plans
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. ANd it's an AWFUL idea. Why hit the middle class, rather than taxing the rich to PAY for subsidies?
It's another BROKEN Obama promise, and a slap in the face to many of his supporters in unions and the middle class.
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Blue State Blues Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
27. speaking of awful ideas, subsidies for private health insurance
let's use tax-payer dollars to purchase a defective product from a predatory private company at an outrageously marked-up price ...

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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
41. This bill is just chock full of AWFUL IDEAS.
No public option. Mandates without real cost controls. "Cadillac tax" on the middle class. Abortion restrictions. Fines for non-compliance. And tax-payer subsidies "to purchase a defective product from a predatory private company at an outrageously marked-up price ..."


Good God - what an atrocity.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. What a looming backlash at the polls
:P
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thotzRthingz Donating Member (585 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
36. i'm thinking: KILL IT NOW...then implement my ONE PAGE, 5-para. health care refrom bill:
...see it here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7397642&mesg_id=7397642

05JAN2010: health care reform: start again with a "what's good for the goose" approach
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
74. There aren't enough rich to pay for it all
They will pay the lion's share of it, but the rest has to come from somewhere.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #74
83. the top 1% own 40% of the wealth, yes there is plenty of money just by taxing the rich
unless you have some other figures that you would like to share with us....
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. We all have to pitch in and do our part
Taxes will have to go up for everyone, though not at the same rate.

If something is worth doing, it is worth sacrificing for.
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county worker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #87
92. You hit the nail on the head. "if something is worth doing"
Single payer is worth doing and worth paying for. A good public option is worth doing and worth paying for. This bill is not worth doing and not worth paying for.

We will be paying more for what we get now without paying more!
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. It's not us who will be getting more, it's those who have nothing who will get more
This isn't meant to be a gravy train for the middle class who already have health insurance--it's meant to bring a necessity of life to those who are without, either because of poverty or because of so-called pre-existing conditions.
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Isn't that the justification for the mandate? nt
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. Get rid of the health insurance industry's anti-trust exemption to create a market/ give a choice.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
37. How about taxing the rich instead?
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
49. It's meant to interfere with the kind of healthcare
people have especially the Unions and working class. It is meant to help the Private Insurance companies not to have pay for expensive treatment for those they cover.

It will force employers who are now providing good benefits for their employees to cut back on those benefits rather than face the fines.

I can't believe Democrats are doing this, and even more so, I cannot believe people are trying to excuse them for doing so ~

Why don't you all start standing up for the people for a change. You needn't worry about Obama, he's set for life and neither needs or wants your support. He already told you you are going to be ignored.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
91. I currently need a "subsidized" plan
I have health insurance that I cannot to use. I cannot afford medical treatment although I am fully insured.
Once this bill passes, my insurance costs will go up, and I will be able to afford less medical treatment.
Worse, 58 million Americans will be "insured", like me, without medical treatment.
And the insurance companies will clean up, with all the new co-pays and no new people receiving care.

But I am sure that this HCR bill will fail, as it is designed to do.
Then Socialist Obama will swing into action, bankrupt the vampire health "insurance" companies, and AMerica will rise from 28th in the world in health care to the top ten..
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. The tax will trickle down and will generate opposition to HCR from an important demographic. nt
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no limit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. I don't get insurance from work, yet I have to pay about 30% tax on all my income
even if I then go and buy insurance by myself. Why do people with employer based insurance get special treatment by getting what is virtually tax free income?
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. Because we, unfortunately, link health care with employment in this country.
Those tax breaks are an incentive for employers to provide health coverage.
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no limit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
38. But me paying taxes does not affect the employers. Taxing those benefits wouldn't either
Edited on Thu Jan-07-10 04:54 PM by no limit
I just don't think it's very fair that I am taxed on 100% of my income because my employer doesn't provide me with insurance yet people that get insurance from their work only get taxed on some of their income.

And I'm not necessarily saying that we should tax those benefits, but to claim this is some kind of betrayal that makes Obama evil is a little absurd.
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SoCalNative Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. So how do we know
whether we have "Cadillac health plans" or not if our employer pays for the majority or all of it?
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dmallind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. So the angst is that uin six years it will hit one in five middle class workers, if not adjusted?
So let's say...... it could be adjusted or indexed to keep hitting "relatively few" normal people as it initially does?
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
6. K and R. This is indefensible. eom
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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. Obama would rather tax the middle class lose the next election than tax his rich friends.
We'll have a Republican president in three years, thanks to this.
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emsimon33 Donating Member (904 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Oh, I was beginning to think that we had one now.
Edited on Thu Jan-07-10 04:24 PM by emsimon33
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:39 PM
Original message
You're kidding right?! Have you even read the damn thing!?!?
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
65. What is WRONG with this man?....Who IS he?
I ask because by now, I think most of realize that we don't know! And please...don't accuse me of echoing the Wing Nuts during the campaign...I'm a yellow dog Dem...I'm only sorry that HE seems barely liberal enough to be called a "blue dog" or even a "new dem".

I like him personally, I voted for him twice..I donated to his campaign and like many here, I NEVER mistook him for a true "progressive, my first choice being John Edwards...But freaking A...He's starting to look like a stealth republican!

What's drives, him, I wonder?...I don't think it's money..I just wonder what drove him to become president on a DEMOCRATIC ticket?

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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
8. Hard to argue with bullshit like that!
Edited on Thu Jan-07-10 04:23 PM by Egnever
After all the first paragraph is completely false as this is a tax on the insurance CO side of the equation not a direct tax paid by people with Cadillac plans. So I stopped reading your spin at that first paragraph assuming the rest of the posts were full of an equal amount of misinformed garbage.
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abelenkpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. taxing the insurance co side of the equation
surely won't lead to them reducing benefits or passing that cost on to customers because....??

Is there a law restricting insurance companies from passing those costs on to consumers? Some kind of regulation that protects people?
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. Because...
they are mandated to pay 85% out of every dollar directly to health care. The tax does not count as Health care. F
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
44. 85% of what dollars??? They will make an obscene profit somehow.
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GinaMaria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
75. 85% is what they pay now
actually for some it's 87% and from that 15% the execs still get huge salaries and bonuses. Where's the change? The change is in switching people to individual policies, with high deductibles, co-pays. This discourages utilization. Are you going to get routine care and pay out of pocket or will you only use the insurance for something catastrophic like a car accident? If you don't use your health insurance and pay whatever you pay per month, you will not see 85% of that money in terms of health care.

Ins Cos also broker deals about medical care rates. While the Doctor or hospital may usually charge $100 for a service, they've agreed to get $75 for the service from the ins. co. Wow look there's 25% health care dollars back in the system. :crazy:
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
10. Instead of raising the criminal plans they will lower the better plans
Edited on Thu Jan-07-10 04:27 PM by boston bean
to fit in with the criminal plans.

We will all have less access to healthcare.

This is the reasoning behind this - People don't consider costs when accessing healthcare, so if we make it so they have to pay out of their pocket with higher deductibles and co pays they won't visit the doctor as much. They will make a choice about cost vs. care.

How does this in any way improve access to healthcare???

It accomplishes the complete opposite.

It gives the middle class less coverage, by making it out of reach, with no cost controls on plans, deductibles or co pays!

edit to add:

THE COST CONTROLS = LIMIT ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE BY MAKING IT TO EXPENSIVE TO VISIT A DOCTOR

HCR = STATUS QUO + WORSE


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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. It generates all the wrong incentives. nt
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
11. The House plan is the one to go with
I don't understand why Obama does not want to tax the rich, but instead wants to alienate the Unions (which is an important base of the Democratic party!) and the middle class. It makes no sense.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
15. Right, because the text of the bill is spin. Oh, and you had to start your own thread because?
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Don't just read the bill, understand what it means and what will happen
if passed.

Jiminy Crickets!
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Do you really hear yourself? "Don't Read The Bill?" No, you'd rather buy spin from the likes of FDL
who works with Norquist, teabaggers and now apparently brietbart.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. delete
Edited on Thu Jan-07-10 04:46 PM by uponit7771
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. Well, it's quite clear who's misrepresenting and misinterpreting here.
"Don't JUST read the bill", was the invocation. Understand the implications (which is the point of my OP).

And nowhere in the OP or from bostonbean's post, is there any reference to FDL.

Your demons, man.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. I didn't say, "don't read the bill", you ought to learn how to read. nt
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
45. -1 for invoking the bad scary FDL boogyman and for purposely distorting poster's words
Edited on Thu Jan-07-10 05:25 PM by ima_sinnic
and for having an agenda that makes your posts totally without credibility.

purposely changing "don't just read the bill" to "don't read the bill" shows how fucking shallow you are. you got nothing.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #21
61. Have you answered my questions about how this bill HURTS union workers?
NO!

Why?

Please tell me how I will not be HURT by your union busting bill.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #61
77. Let's see, charter schools and many other anti-union
policies coming out of the Obama administration. Whose side is he on?
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. I've seen you start a thread today..
Don't bitch when others do the same thing you do..
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:39 PM
Original message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
32. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:44 PM
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
16. This is both wrong and politically ignorant, if true. However it will not impact
me personally. This does not mean I don't have a concern, however.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
25. Deleted
Edited on Thu Jan-07-10 04:45 PM by uponit7771
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Including most of the authors quoted!
Wooohooo for ignorance!
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. deleted and post unrec'd
Edited on Thu Jan-07-10 04:45 PM by uponit7771
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
34. Hartmann explained it today
It sounds like it will hit working middle-class people the worst (just like the rest of the "reform"). The insurance company will undoubtably pass the increase on to its clients
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
39. Want to lose a lot of (D) seats in 2010-2012? Pass this bill. (nt)
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
40. ...
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
42. DLC , typically if pushed to choose between helping Big Business
or helping the Middle Class, will help Big Business every time.

This used to be the difference between GOP and Dems.

Now it is the difference withing Dem. Party between Third Way,
New Democrat, DLCer and a Liberal.

This is why our party is now a party of the Right rather than
a Democratic Party.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
43. knr
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
47. K & R. The truth is out there.
Thanks.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
48. Here's a very important piece of info that most people are not aware of:

*** The tax would be paid beginning in 2013 on 40% of the amount by which your health care benefits exceed $8,500 for individual or $23,000 for family coverage in the year 2013.

*** What exactly counts toward that amount of $8,500 for individual or $23,000 for family?

Shockingly, it's COMBINED benefits that will count toward that amount, i.e.:

* Both employer and employee premium shares
* Any additional dental and vision premiums, and
* Any amount in a flexible spending account




*********************

I just did a quick calculation on my current (adequate but not by any stretch of imagination "Cadillac") insurance plan offered via University of California, and this standard, very average plan already is close to $8,500, when everything is taken into account. I have no doubt that plans like these will exceed by far $8,500 in 3 years, given the cost inflation. In other words, this tax plan absolutely without a doubt targets middle class.


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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Gay couples will be taxed at the $8,500 because they are not recognized as families
LGBTs get FRAK again by the Obama Administration!
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Nordmadr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #48
60. My thoughts exactly. I'm a union member and believe my
health insurance plan that covers my family will likely get hit with this. My wife is a teacher and I work in information systems. We are middle class, for now.

Nordmadr
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #48
86. If that is true, I was going by the
first numbers, it will definitely target the middle class in far greater numbers than originally thought.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
51. Obama has betrayed
those who campaigned and voted for him, especially Labor Unions...now he stabs them in the back.

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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. How do you screw UNIONS??? They are the BACKBONE of the party.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. That is an excellent question. The unions are dead set against this so called "cadillac" tax..
Edited on Thu Jan-07-10 10:59 PM by BrklynLiberal
as well they should be..and all of us should follow suit.

They validly argue that union members have sacrificed pay raises in order to maintain their health benefits.

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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. By taxing their 'Cadilac'
health care plans. How many years did Labor Unions give up on raises, but insisted on keeping their benefits. Now they will pay for those benefits and still get NO raises. Labor has fought hard against this taxing of their 'chevrolet' health care plans...but Prez O stabs them in the back.

Go read.

It's all about ridding this country of the Middle Class. Get it?

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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. Duh, that's the point of the OP. I'm asking, 'how in the world do you make the political
Edited on Fri Jan-08-10 08:44 AM by chimpymustgo
calculation to screw one of your most loyal and supportive constituencies?"

It's another Dr. Obama/Mr. Hyde shape shift.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #58
68. This was the plan all along.
Obama was NOT what he appeared. I told many during the campaign that he would break their hearts then stab them in the back...and I was vilified.

Obama works for TPTB...he's just a little minion. His first payback was to Wall Street and then the Insurance and Pharma industries.

He couldn't be bothered about the working people of this nation. The Dems know that Labor/Women/Gays/Lefties have NO CHOICE...they have to vote for the Dem candidate. We let them get away with it.

Today, there is little difference between the 2 parties...all are corporately owned and paid for.

We need a true Working People's Party....that's the only answer I see. I'm afraid that the power vacuum will be filled with religious wackos instead of a progressive person.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-09-10 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #68
98. I think I agree with you. Obama has been quite brazen in his paybacks to TPTB.
There's just no doubt any more. It's sad, but a little scary to see so many of the brainless who continue to believe in faith-based politics.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-09-10 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #98
99. I'm glad I didn't fall
for his 'marketing campaign' of 'Yes, We Can,' and 'Change.'

Of course, I'm old and have seen a lot. It was just too slick...and he seemed so arrogant at the time.

Needless to say I voted for the man, but I knew what to expect from him. I have to say he is worse than I expected.

We need a FIGHTER for this country and he doesn't have it in him...he does as he is told. I guess all Presidents do, unless there is a planned military coup against them like FDR where General Smedley Butler spilled the beans. As a result, FDR told the 'treasonists' he'd keep quiet as long as they went along with his policies.

Obama is no FDR. It's as if Obama now looks down on the working people...he figures he got out of his working class life and they can too.

It's all so sad. I truly fear for this country and the economic upheaval we are going to face because he has given into Wall Street and Corporations. Nothing has changed regarding financial policies since the 'collapse' in Sept. of 2008.

This level of Greed is criminal. Karma will get 'em.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #52
69. they traded the unions in for corporate money
it's all about $$$$$, and its inhuman.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
53. The "Cadillac Tax" is a REPUBLICAN proposal.
McCain campaigned on the "Cadillac Tax".

Obama strongly OPPOSED it, and ridiculed McCain for it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8wmN3wvhNM&feature=player_embedded

NOW, Obama is FOR the Cadillac Tax and Mandates!
Obama is pushing the Republican Health Care Plan.


"I did not campaign on a Public Option."
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-09-10 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #53
95. From the beginning I think that was fairly obvious
On this board, as soon as the Mandate became part of the bill, I remember calling it 'Romneycare' and being told I was so wrong. I was, this is worse than Romneycare.

I never bought that they needed 60 votes. If this WH had wanted Single Payer in the form of Medicare for all, they could have rammed it through while the country was still overwhelming behind them. And that would have made the Dem Party secure in the majority for a long time to come. The fact that they didn't even try, and then the silence all during the Summer (the tea-baggers were a gift to them, that's why they never came out and fought them) was a very bad sign.

What they were really working on was how to kill every progressive idea while their supporters online and elsewhere, lectured us about 'political compromise' and other such nonsense.

At least this time, I can say I am not disappointed anymore. I stopped believing this WH would do anything that Big Pharma didn't want months ago.

How sad, that there was so much hope just a year ago ~ I don't recognize this man in the WH as the same person I saw campaigning. He has basically told those who criticize this bill, the same people who voted for him, to go to hell. He may have put it more diplomatically, but he said the exact same thing his COS said.

I think we ought to take them at their word.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
54. K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-07-10 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
57. My health plan costs 50% of the threshold levels
I guess I don't really give a shit.
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DisgustedInMN Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
59. How does Barack Obama sleep at night?

We are so fucked.
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. He got his
The rest of us can go fuck ourselves.

Disclaimer: I have been voting as a Democrat since 1979, for those who are "concerned".

:mad: :mad: :mad:
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DisgustedInMN Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. I went door to door in RFK's campaign.
I was an Obama Delegate at the 6th Congressional District Caucuses here. Al Franken's wife spoke to us.

And you are correct, we are getting the exact same "I got mine, fuck you" attitude out of this fraud as we have always gotten from the righties.
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. I wish we lived closer to each other
I would love to hear more about your experiences. Plus, I am dying to know what Al Franken has to say behind closed doors about this whole thing, aren't you?

In the meantime, one thing's for sure: My only comfort these days are the sheer numbers as pissed off as I am. I can't remember being more disappointed with a politician in my lifetime, and that includes President Clinton.

:eyes:
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DisgustedInMN Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Al Franken is..
.. keeping his thoughts to himself on this and many other subjects. I've written multiple times and have yet to get a reply of any substance, just the usual mass form letters. Funny thing, during his campaign, never once did a letter I sent fail to get a response from at least an informed staffer.It's sad how fast our "party leaders" lose interest in what we have to say, once they get to DC. I thought that he AND Obama were cut from different cloth, but I'm truly coming to doubt it.

I fear for the world we are leaving my grandkids, I don't think they stand a chance of having a decent life. There's an ugly storm brewing, but most are more interested in American Idol and Tiger Woods than they are at holding politicians to their word, so the anger, frustration, desperation, and distrust builds. I'm at a loss to know where to turn now.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
64. Recommend
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FarLeftFist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
70. I thought the 'Cadillac Tax' would only affect those who make over 250/k year.
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
71. K & R
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GinaMaria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
72. 23K?
Is this for all benefits or just health and dental? The total cost between me and my employer for all my benefits = almost 20K and that is for me and my husband (who can only work part time due to illness). If we had kids we'd be screwed. Heck in a year or two, we'll be screwed with rising costs and hit the 23K mark. We are not rich, by anyone's definition. We are clearly middle class. The benefits are part of my total compensation. We were told given the economy and job market the most we could hope for is a 2.5% increase this year and that is only for the top performers (only 1% of the employee population will get this). The message was we were lucky to get anything in this market. Does anyone else feel like they are getting poorer each year?
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
73. Oh my oh my. Such a complete chameleon our
leader is.....I am wondering what part the wonderful Michele--hospital administrator extraodinaire has played in this farce. With her inside knowlege of the med/hospital biz and his devotion to her, you'd think that some of this treachery might abate.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
76. Whoa, Nelly!
This tax applies to people whose employer's pay part or all of their insurance costs? For some years, I paid for my insurance out of my pre-tax income and then paid taxes on all of the income including the amount I spent on health insurance. When my employer paid for my insurance, I did not pay tax on the amount the employer paid for my insurance.

Wouldn't this Cadillac tax mean that everybody pays tax on insurance that is valued at more than a certain amount of money?

Why should I pay tax on the income that I use to pay for my individual insurance policy while someone whose employer pays for a group policy (which is usually cheaper anyway) does not pay tax on the income used to pay for that policy?

Or am I misunderstanding how this works?
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. First, let me say I have always thought it wrong to tax health insurance.
I do believe that there is a way to avoid paying tax by setting up a private withholding plan for health expenses called an ERA. (Off hand I don't remember what the acronym stands for.) I'm now self-employed, and set myself up as an LLC, which permits me to deduct my health insurance costs. For many hears before that, I was a state employee, and had a very good policy. The fact is, though, that we only had that very good policy because our union traded away wage increases in order to keep the health insurance. By the time I retired, I was making a good 30% below the average income for a person in my profession, but I had the good insurance. I imagine this story is repeated in a goodly number of workplaces.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. You can set up an LLC if you are self-employed.
But if you are working for low pay for a small employer who does not provide health care, you pay pre-tax and are taxed on what you pay.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. But I think you can set up a flexplan account
so that part of your pre-tax wages go into that account, and you can pay your health insurance out of that. I used to do that for my prescription copays.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #82
89. As that kind of plan was presented to me at the time,
it sounded very complicated and also risky. The one that was presented to me required you to spend all the money in the account on medical expenses by the end of the year or forfeit the remaining money. I have heard that there was also some sort of other account that did not entail a forfeiture, but I did not know about it.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #89
94. Yes, you had to spend the amount in the account--
so you just calculate how much your insurance premiums will add up to for the year and set the size of the account accordingly. If you know you'll need glasses or dental work or something else not covered by your plan, you can set the money aside for that too.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #82
90. As that kind of plan was presented to me at the time,
it sounded very complicated and also risky. The one that was presented to me required you to spend all the money in the account on medical expenses by the end of the year or forfeit the remaining money. I have heard that there was also some sort of other account that did not entail a forfeiture, but I did not know about it.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
79. What's wrong with going back to a pre-Reagan 70% tax on the Uber-rich?
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. They will have to go from 10 vacation homes down to just 8, that is what's wrong!
Why do you hate America?

We all know that if we don't give lots of money back to the rich, they will not have any incentive to do all capitalistic stuff that makes our country great. In the same sense, if we give any money to the poor... then they will not have any incentive to work! Or something like that....
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RoccoR5955 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
80. I've been saying this all along
Why are they taxing us middle class folks, who know how to organize, form a union, and then negotiate? Now, since we made a compromise, and got good health care instead of pay hikes, the Cons want to tax us for it. This, in effect, lowers our wage. Some people just do not understand that this 40% tax on these benefits will take a large chunk out of our pay, even here, in my union shop.
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
85. It means nothing to me
Given the threshold and cost indexing for the proposed excise tax, my current premium, the rate at which my premiums have been inflating, it will be 15 to 20 years before I approach being taxed. I have a low deductible plan with good coverage and make above the income range cited as an area of concern.

Well before I face any tax, I will be retired and on medicare.

Were I buying only individual coverage instead of family coverage, the race would be a bit closer, but not much. I get quite decent coverage for my family at about 12K. Of course, it is a government negotiated plan, somewhat like those that will be offered through the exchanges.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
88. I had another idea about how to pay for reform and it would generate
so much cash - rather painlessly - that it would be foolish not to do single payer. How about a $1 surcharge on all Internet transactions? The money generated from ebay sales alone would be mind boggling. Anyone who carps about how horrible it might be should be reminded it would take thousands upon thousands of Internet purchases by one person to equal the cost of the average health insurance premium. People with more money and more purchasing power would obviously contribute more. If you don't want to pay the surcharge, don't shop online. Everyone gets a medical access card - like Canada - and nobody goes bankrupt.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-09-10 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #88
96. The House has a plan to tax those 500k and up
I'm good to go on that. In any event, it seems kinda lamebrained to depend on a revenue stream so heavily for something of this scope from a source you clearly want to go away.

This whole thing is crazy and nonsensical.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-09-10 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
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