To punish the Democrats, we have to let Republicans win

[LoZoccolo]

is a shit statement

[dkf]

1. To punish the democrats we must primary them.

[Little Star]

4. yep

[2 Much Tribulation]

10. Ah, but SCOTUS has ruled that political party primary conventions DO NOT NEED TO BE FAIR

See Lopez-Torres v. NY State Board of Elections

SO far, they haven't said primary ELECTIONS don't have to be fair, but there's a huge incentive if there's tough primaries to "go private" because the selection process, as in Lopez-Torres, can be "controlled by party bosses" and not at all representative of the delegates, and that's cool by the Supreme Court - as private organizations (they are public/private, in fact) they don't have to have fair rules about how they "associate"

[Telly Savalas]

37. How's that going?

A lot of DUers love to talk about primaries in vague terms but there's virtually no discussion here of specific races, which is kind of odd considering the primaries are right around the corner.

There's one on-the-ball DUer who has on a couple of occasions posted the links to the websites of about a dozen quality Democratic primary challengers. (Sorry I don't have a link.) But that still leaves us with 450+ House and Senate races where no specifics have been raised.

[HughMoran]

95. It's not

it's just the company line among the couch-potato warriors

[Enthusiast]

83. +1

If an elected Democrat blatantly ignores the wishes of their constituency they should go.

No one has better illustrated this than certain Democrats that first talked down the public option. They knew full well a HUGE majority of Democrats supported the public option. There was simply no principled excuse for being opposed to the public option.

[swilton]

89. But ignoring the wishes of constituencies is also very vague

In the first place, constituencies are not polled consistently

In the second place progressives are not well organized or do not always speak with one voice - the Democratic representative may be pro-war, and for the travesty of the health care bill but as long as they vote the Democratic line there is no strong opposition. And within progressive communities within these districts there are debates as to whether or not to support the pro-war Democratic incumbents - on the lines that 'we can work to influence him (as opposed to a Republican)', 'we don't want to lose the Democratic seat by voting en masse to support a Green Party challenger', etc.

Within progressive democratic groups in Maryland, there is real dissatisfaction with Van Hollen and his actions - but there was a split as to whether or not to endorse him as opposed to endorsing the Green Party challenger, Gordon Clark. The final tally came in not to endorse Van Hollen but not to endorse Clarke either.

[Enthusiast]

97. How about

something as simple as support for the public option? The entire country has been polled on that issue.

[dysfunctional press]

90. that will have to wait until 2012...at least in illionos.

the primary election for the november general election is less than a month away. february 2, 2010. the deadline for filing to be on the ballot was back on novemebr 9, 2009.

[Little Star]

100. Remember Lieberman. CT Dems primary-ed him and our

Congress-critters supported him anyway. Their backing gave him cover and helped him win as an Independent.
Friggin back-stabbers! We could have had a real Democrat. They basically told CT voters no you can't have a Democrat.
Sometimes we don't only have to fight the Dino.

[anonymous171]

2. We live in a representative democracy.

If someone refuses to represent and fight for me, then I have no obligation to vote for them.

[mix]

13. +1

[stray cat]

3. but apparently a common idea and one that I'm afraid is likely to be achieved

I would have preferred Al Gore to 8 years of Bush but I may be in the progressive minority.....

[2 Much Tribulation]

5. So what IS the penalty for reneging on campaign promises, pray tell?

[Raineyb]

11. Apparently it's another vote.

Doesn't seem much like punishment to me though but I guess I'm just logical that way.

[2 Much Tribulation]

14. Another vote with an utterly secret count of the vote by scanners or DREs. Great. n/t

[LoZoccolo]

16. You can't think of anything that doesn't involve killing thousands of people?

That would give me pause. I would be like "maybe I should spend five more minutes on this".

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. Killing thousands of people?

You mean like when escalating the war in Afghanistan?

[LoZoccolo]

45. Bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran.

Says your guy McCain.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

61. My guy McCain?

More tiresome predictability from one of the snarkiest party-over-principle types on DU.

[LoZoccolo]

64. I have principles; one of them is responsibility. n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

71. Responsibility?

Yeah, right.

[LoZoccolo]

72. Responsibility for dealing with things as they are. n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

88. Responsiblity for accepting the status quo and siding with the powers that be

is more like it.

Not something to be proud of, IMHO.

[LooseWilly]

6. So is: "vote for the lesser evil".

Please, enlighten us with a statement that is not shit...

[LostInAnomie]

7. A lot of idiots think cutting off your nose to spite your face is brilliant political strategy.

Then they spend the next few years claiming that it's not their fault.

[patrice]

19. Because they over-simiplify what needs to be done into that single act and then abdicate

responsibility for doing anything else that NEEDS to be done as much or more than just voting or not voting, as the case may be.

[StarfarerBill]

8. You said it...

:eyes:

[gateley]

9. That'd show 'em!

But we're the ones who would suffer. Agree. Shit statement.

[Mr Generic Other]

30. we are already suffering and those in charge are doing nothing to alleviate that.

so what do you expect people who have been lied to to do? reward the liars?
i am not young, and i have been a lifelong democrat but i am through with the democrats.
my two democratic senators helped to vote down the opportunity to re-import our own drugs from canada at cheaper prices. this was the last straw.
in a free market we should be free to buy our drugs from canada if we like.

[gateley]

35. And how do you think we would fare if the Republicans gained back seats?

We have to keep forcing those who are in place to do what we elected them to do. We can support another Democratic, truly progressive, candidate. We can threaten them with assurances that we will contribute to their opponents.

We really shouldn't HAVE to do anything, but we do, sadly.

On the particular prescription drug topic -- I was absolutely shocked that any Dems didn't support this. Dorgan said he would get this bill passed before he retires next year. We need to get in more like him and the other (few) good, really trustworthy ones.

But I won't vote for a Republican.

[Mr Generic Other]

38. i won't vote for a republican either

but there is no seated democrat, who i can vote for, that has earned my vote.
i call and write my senators and congressman several times each week. they know what i think.
i will vote for someone who will work for me or i will not vote at all.
that from a man who has not missed voting in a single election since i was 18 years old. i am that fed up.
it is considered insane to keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different outcomes.
i feel like i have already demonstrated insanity or at least foolishness.

[gateley]

41. Really, I understand your frustration. I guess I'm just afraid if I don't vote

Dem or don't vote at all (and others don't), a Republican will get the seat. I feel all I can do is try to harangue those who aren't listening to us and maybe support and work for an alternative candidate, other than that, I feel stuck and will vote Dem.

I'm fed up and feel betrayed, too. And really angry.

[gateley]

42. Really, I understand your frustration. I guess I'm just afraid if I don't vote

Dem or don't vote at all (and others don't), a Republican will get the seat. I feel all I can do is try to harangue those who aren't listening to us and maybe support and work for an alternative candidate, other than that, I feel stuck and will vote Dem.

I'm fed up and feel betrayed, too. And really angry.

[Mr Generic Other]

43. smiling at you for trying the same post over and over.

sorry, i won't vote for any incumbent, especially democrats.
i won't reward anyone for making my life and the lives of most americans harder.
i can't do it any longer and claim to have any integrity.
that is more precious to me than voting for charlatans.

[gateley]

46. I do see your point, and applaud your bravery. Our votes will cancel out

the other's, maybe, but we each have to do what we feel is the right thing.

My kitten walked over the keyboard and the post popped back up, so I thought I hadn't submitted it. :7

[Enthusiast]

85. Especially democrats?

This I do not understand. Every single Republican was an asshole on every single fucking issue. The Democrats? Only part time assholes and then not all of them. Why especially Democrats?

[Mr Generic Other]

87. because democrats claim to be my ally

then stab me in the back.
this is not acceptable. it makes republicans look more honest (which, of course they are not) than democrats since they never pretend to be decent.
sneaky liars who would worm their way into your space just to take advantage of you are worse than publicly proclaimed enemies.

[Enthusiast]

98. The only good Republican is

one that is not holding office. There is no one as horrible as the lying filthy Republican.

[Mr Generic Other]

47. i grew up being told to fear the "one party state"

of the soviets and the "red" chinese only to discover that we had a one party system too.
republicans and democrats are two sides of one coin. they are not opposites, they work together.
they are good-cop/bad cop.
you vote you are a "party member", you don't vote you are a no-count. just like the old evil empire of the soviets.
election outcomes are predetermined and have been for some time. and evidently that situation is just fine with those who hold the power to change it.
guess i'm at the point where i don't want to play that game any longer. sorry.

[ima_sinnic]

12. it's not my responsibility to "save the country" from repukes,

esp. if the "democrats" are merely thinly disguised repukes themselves.

[LoZoccolo]

18. If you can stop it, yes it is.

"Responsibility" is not set by your rules or mine.

[ima_sinnic]

20. my vote will no longer be taken for granted. it must be earned.

if the "democrats" want to run losers, they will lose.

[anonymous171]

22. FUCK YEAH! nt

[PizzaDriver]

79. word. nt

[Goldstein1984]

15. Unless people are willing to engage in activism

our votes are the only power we have.

I refuse to be restricted to be told that I can vote only one way because the the other way would be worse.

My vote is the only power I have over a politician. If it's guaranteed, then there is no power.

As far as things being worse, when I look at the current choices, I think maybe better can only be found on the other side of worse.

[LoZoccolo]

25. Stalinist Germans used that excuse in letting Hitler win.

But hey, they got their commie state in the end.

[anonymous171]

27. Did you just call them a nazi communist? nt

[LoZoccolo]

29. Yes, that's exactly what I said.

To the letter.

[TheWatcher]

73. Delete.

Why bother when it's obviously off it's meds.

[Luminous Animal]

48. Que? Source please.

[LoZoccolo]

53. Here you go.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x556171

[LoZoccolo]

55. Here's another one.

http://www.kimel.net/goldhag1.html

[Luminous Animal]

56. Fail. Kimel is far from authoritive

(and that had to be one of the wimpiest assessments of Hitler's rise to ultimate power) but even if we were to take him to his logical conclusion; that being, "no government could secure a parliamentary majority in the Reichstag", then we would also have to lay the blame on the center left and center right parties who were unable to hold a majority. And he completely neglects to mention that Hitler was appointed Chancellor despite his poor showing in the elections and minority support. He also neglected to point out in that in order to wrest power and abolish the German democratic government, Hitler relied on a coalition in which the conservative corporate party and the conservative Catholic party joined with the Nazi's.

[LoZoccolo]

57. You're free to look up more if you're genuinely interested.

We have another example in Nader's assist to Bush*, but we've forgotten it too. People like to lay blame for the Democrats not doing enough are the same people pushing an atrocious and open lie that there's no difference between the parties for their own vanity.

[Goldstein1984]

60. The labels don't matter

You settle for the lesser of two evils. My grandchildren deserve better than what we have now.

Republicans throw out the SOCIALIST! thing all the time too.

Mediocre government isn't adequate. And I don't believe we even have that.

[LoZoccolo]

62. Not even the 2000 Nader voters who fucked it all up agree with you.

They for the most part learned from their mistake. This thread is not even about complacency so much as it is about the fuckup of thinking that the ballot is the only option available to you.

[Goldstein1984]

65. I do more than vote

My NGO contributions total about $2500/year
Obama gets almost a letter a day from me
Mark Begich gets about two letters per week
I don't waste time writing to Lisa Murkowski or Don Young, but I do copy them on my frequent letters to Bernie Sanders (I like to think it annoys them)
I also send targeted donations for specific purposes (I sent Sea Shepherd $100 when the Japanese sank the Ady Gil)
I am currently boycotting all durable goods, restaurants, national franchises.
I divested all of our retirement funds from stock-based investments
I withdrew all savings from our bank in Nebraska and redeposited the funds into our CU in Alaska
My Facebook page is totally political

And I plan to travel to DC in March 2010 to join Cindy Sheehan on thee 13th and hang around for a demonstration planned for the 23rd.

But my vote is performance based, not a function of party or platform.

[LoZoccolo]

68. "Obama gets almost a letter a day from me" WTF

You need to be writing those letters to other voters. Seriously, here's a simple plan: get center voters compelled to support something you want, and a Democratic politician will use it to win an office. Everybody wins! You can't just demand something from these politicians that the general populace understands little about; the Republicans will just knock it down with a list of lies they'll need all of ten minutes to come up with. We need a base of people who know the issues and can sort fact from fiction, a foundation big enough so that a politician can rely on it to get in. It takes dedication, persistance, sober assessment, strategy, and patience, not some knee-jerk reaction at the ballot box.

[Goldstein1984]

74. Unfortunately, I live in Alaska

so other votes around here are mostly Republican. I do post an occasion Obama letter on DU, and they all go to my Facebook page so my friends see them all.

Like I said, I've been an activist since I was a kid, and "dedication, persistence, sober assessment, strategy, and patience" come fairly naturally to me. I have MS degrees in both Biology and Environmental Engineering, and I've done a fair amount of teaching at the university level in those areas. My teaching doesn't shy away from political views on natural resource issues or environmental protection. I'm getting some coursework out of the way to prepare for a PhD program in history, and the kids in the classes I attend get their share of indoctrination from me.

I've worked my way to a point in my career where my primary responsibility is advising corporate executives on engineering and science issues related to projects and potential investments. We're looking at work associated with the military buildup in Guam. We flew in to meet with some potential business partners. One of them was literally alarmed when he heard me speaking Chamoru (Chamorro) to one of the local workers. On the flight back, our corporate president was laughing when he told me the guy was concerned about getting involved with a partner who was "going to go Native" on him. If we take on those projects, any working people on the jobs will have all of the protections our employees in Alaska receive. Something they do not receive now, in spite of the fact that Guam is covered by OSHA. The oligarchs run the island.

I do my share.

My voting isn't done knee-jerk on election day. I've been voting for about 34 years, and I like to think I've developed some wisdom where voting is concerned. But my vote is earned.

[Goldstein1984]

58. Delete-Duplicate

[Goldstein1984]

59. I won't be boxed in like that.

My vote is the only power I have over an elected representative.

If my vote is guaranteed simply because someone is the lesser of two evils, then the lesser of two evils is all we'll ever get.

They earn my vote by action, not by party affiliation.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Goldstein1984]

66. Don't lecture me on activism

I've been an activist since I tagged along with my cousin to anti-Vietnam War protests when I was twelve. When I was seventeen I crawled out the window of our doublewide early in the morning so I could join farm workers in making sure thousands of acres of lettuce and tomatoes rotted in the fields.

See my other post under this OP before you default to "bullshit" and assumptions you have no basis for stating. I do plenty. I doubt you do as much.

My vote is mine.

[LoZoccolo]

69. Your strategy beckons not just a lecture but a facepalm. n/t

[Goldstein1984]

75. We're wasting time. We aren't going to agree.

I'm a democrat, not a Democrat. The party lost my membership, but not my votes, when Clinton turned out to be a Neocon.

[Goldstein1984]

67. From my other post

My NGO contributions total about $2500/year
Obama gets almost a letter a day from me
Mark Begich gets about two letters per week
I don't waste time writing to Lisa Murkowski or Don Young, but I do copy them on my frequent letters to Bernie Sanders (I like to think it annoys them)
I also send targeted donations for specific purposes (I sent Sea Shepherd $100 when the Japanese sank the Ady Gil)
I am currently boycotting all durable goods, restaurants, national franchises.
I divested all of our retirement funds from stock-based investments
I withdrew all savings from our bank in Nebraska and redeposited the funds into our CU in Alaska
My Facebook page is totally political

And I plan to travel to DC in March 2010 to join Cindy Sheehan on thee 13th and hang around for a demonstration planned for the 23rd.

But my vote is performance based, not a function of party or platform.

[laughingliberal]

40. I refuse to be restricted to be told that I can vote only one way because the the other way would be

worse."

Yes, that's getting a little old for me, too.

[madokie]

17. You got that right

a smelly shit statement at that

[Kansas Wyatt]

21. What's the difference between Democrat & Republican again?

If the Democrat fucks you just as much and as bad as the Republican, then it may be time to find a new 3rd Party, who will look out for our best interests. Good luck with the GOTV, without union halls across the country.

Hell, with all the sane Republicans taking over the Democratic Party, maybe we would have better luck with kicking the crazies out of the Republican Party and backing candidates that will represent us, since the Democrats are only lip service and won't. A brand new Labor Party is always an option... One that actually will work for and represent Working Americans all over the country.

We never had any intention of punishing the Democrats and we did wish them the best of luck. Seriously, we wanted them to really do what they swore they would do. But we got screwed instead, and now you want us to roll over and take it? No thanks! First NAFTA, and now the DLC HCR/SHIT (Union Busting) Bill. Time to cut the losses and let the rotting jackass carcass go.

[LoZoccolo]

28. If. n/t

[Kansas Wyatt]

32. If - Depends on who Obama & Democrats, Inc. finally tax to pay for their HCR/DLC SHIT Bill.

If it goes the way Obama wants... If you thought there were pissed off people cursing the Democrats over NAFTA, just wait until this shit hits the fan. Blow-back is going to be a bitch.

[LaPera]

23. We've have to do it in the primaries...Donate, support, & work for the progressive Dem candidate

running against the already corrupt Dem...toss them out every two years if necessary....

[HillbillyBob]

49. Not to throw a turd in the punch bowl

but I thought that was what we were trying to do this time.

I do agree, we need to find and fund true progressives, enough that we can kill the pay for play and get real public (socialist!! gasp!) campaign funding to replace the corporate campaign bribe scheme going now.

I know I am not very smart, I am at a total loss and so very frustrated.

I would run myself, but since I only know the country way of makin sausage..and you have to kill the pig first....

[debbierlus]

24. You know, we could actually elect real liberals and progressives

And, stand behind them.

But, oh no. Let's keep the one party system in full gear.

[ima_sinnic]

33. the one-party system is exactly what it is

playing the "bad republican" card worked in 2008 but might not be that effective in 2012. people have learned that the "lesser of two evils" is just a wasted vote that doesn't change much of anything and just leaves them feeling screwed and betrayed.

[JelloSka]

26. Strawman. We have to support good progressive Democrats instead nt

[HughMoran]

96. Tell that the the insufferable sanctimonious self-aggrandizing blowhards

[laughingliberal]

34. Just dropped in to unRec. nt

[ima_sinnic]

36. lol!

[sendero]

39. When there is no tangible difference..

...between the two, other than some myths from another decade, who the fuck cares?

[LoZoccolo]

44. When. n/t

[Skittles]

50. wow - a LoZoccolo shit statement I agree with

(that it's a shit statement I mean)

[LoZoccolo]

52. Glad we're friends.

:toast:

[kentuck]

51. To punish the Democrats...

we have to reward them. No matter what they do or do not do. One should never question their Party.

[jgraz]

54. Actually, it's a straw man.

Based on a false dichotomy.

[Bluebear]

70. You were expecting?

[scheming daemons]

76. It's not a false dichotomy.... either Republicans will control congress or Democrats will

The proper place for a Democrat/Progressive/Liberal to exercise their anger is to defeat Democrats in the primaries that have not done their job well enough.


But after the primaries.... either a Democrat or a Republican is going to win each and every congressional seat.

At *THAT* point... if you are a Democrat/Progressive/Liberal and you do NOT vote for the Democratic nominee... then you are - by your inaction if you don't vote - helping the Republican win.


Now... you're a smart guy, jgraz. A little misguided at times, but smart. You *HAVE* to realize that the worst possible outcome for every issue you care about is for the Republican party to regain control of congress.

It won't "teach the Democrats a lesson". It will put the Democrats out of power.

How did 1994 to 2006 work out for you?

Work against Democrats in the fall, and you'll get to relive it.

[jgraz]

77. You demonstrated the false dichotomy in your post

The meme being pushed here is that we support Democrats -- ALL Democrats -- or we are supporting the Republicans. Those aren't our only choices, as you've demonstrated.

We need to run serious primary opponents against the Democrats who are failing us, up to and including the current resident of the White House.

But, ultimately, if Obama and the Dems don't change course, there's very little you or I can do to keep them in power. 1994 is a clear example of what happens when Democrats forget who they're supposed to represent.

[PizzaDriver]

78. Rule #1: politicians are only accountable to those people who are willing to vote against them. it'

it's that freaking simple. if they know that you will vote for them no matter what they do, then what leverage do you have over them? NONE.

Professional politicians/crooks laugh when suckers like you talk about voting for them, then "putting pressure on them," "holding their feet to the fire," "calling/emailing your representative," "working from inside the party...." Ha. ALL THEY CARE ABOUT IS WINNING. ELECTIONS ARE THE ONLY MOMENT OF ACCOUNTABILITY THAT POLITICIANS EVER HAVE. that is your one chance to tell them whether you approve of the job they're doing. if you vote for them and they win, they really have no reason to change, do they?????

[ima_sinnic]

80. +++1 excellent point (nt)

[ShortnFiery]

81. No, absolutely not. Especially with regard to the Presidency, I will hold my

nose and vote for a Democrat, each and every ELECTION, before I'd even consider casting a vote for any hideous ghoulish republican candidate.

Yes, in my times of weakness and sheer despondency, I've threatened more than once to vote for Kucinich, but you're right, the vote would be wasted because there are not enough of us.

However, just because you ruling, IMO, CORPORATIST Democrats can *depend* on my vote ---> that does NOT mean that I'm satisfied.

Not at all!

I and those like me will NOT remain silent. We can do so MUCH better. :(

[quaker bill]

82. Letting republicans win

does not punish democrats, it just keeps them unemployed. What it punishes is the country at large, republicans, independents, democrats, greens, you name it, everyone suffers with the possible exception of no-bid weapons contractors and the very wealthy, who rarely suffer anyway.

[old mark]

84. Right. Republicans in office punish the entire country, except the

republicans who now have great jobs.

Look how much better off we all are after 8 years of W ism.

mark

[Toasterlad]

86. Boy, the DLC Must Be Scared Shitless of 2010.

All the bullshit talking points are being crammed down our throats by the bucketful.

[Cali_Democrat]

92. Are you implying that the OP is some kind of operative for the DLC?

[FLAprogressive]

94. does the pope poop in the woods?

LOLZucchini is at the very least a blind cheerleader.

[Toasterlad]

99. I'm Implying That There Has Been a Concerted Effort to Convince the Country

...that it's either get raped in the ass with lube or get raped in the ass with NO lube.

This may shock you, but there are some people in this country who have a vested interest in ensuring that things don't change for the better for the majority of Americans. And if THAT shocks you, I know you'll be positively FLOORED when I tell you that those people are just as likely to be Democrats as they are Republicans.

And there are also people that are too dim to see past a letter following someone's name to what they're actually DOING to the country, as well as those who'll happily take a check to try and convince everyone else that the party they take the check from isn't REALLY raping them in the ass, but instead giving them a nice, slow prostate massage.

There have been a preponderance of posts lately all shrieking the exact same message:

"Look out! Republicans! Boo! Republicans! They're comin' to getcha! Republicans!"

I wouldn't presume to suggest that the OP is taking a check from the DLC. What I WOULD presume to suggest is that voting for someone just because they're slightly gentler about raping you in the ass than the other guy is exactly how we wound up in the mess we're in now, and it's exactly how we're never going to get out.

The only way to waste your vote is to cast it AGAINST your own principles. Anyone who tries to convince you otherwise is working to keep this country as fucked as possible.

[mzmolly]

91. Yes indeed it is.

:kick:

[Peacetrain]

93. Yes it is.. cut off nose to spite face is not a good operating venue.. IMHO