So where are the "Green Tech Jobs" Mr President ??

[FreakinDJ]

It's time - in fact its over due. Put America on track to sustainable energy and put Americans back to work at the same time

I'm sick and tired of seeing 1000s of acers of unused commercial roof tops in every major city

Time to legislate all commercial properties in excess of 5,000 square feet utilize any combination of Solar, Photo-voltaic, Wind/Power Generation, or Thermal Dynamic Cooling, to produce 10% of their total energy consumption. Allow tax credits in the form of an accelerated depreciation cost of equipment on USA made systems.

[Skittles]

1. that's just part of his purty speeches

[Name removed]

26. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dionysus]

46. lol, how could he have not instantly, personally, solar paneled the entire country by now?

:rofl:

[BeatleBoot]

2. Some links

Windspire Vertical Axis Turbines

http://www.mariahpower.com/


Solar Panels

http://www.residentialsolarpanels.org/

[FreakinDJ]

5. Preaching to the Choir .......

Worked in Energy Management Engineering for years.

The problem we have with commercial properties in neither party to invest in the property.

[kristopher]

29. The commercial sector is shping up as the hottest market out there

This company just got in 09 about $600 billion for building more capacity - they only sell to commercial and utility clients and they are sold out 3 years in advance the last I heard.

Their product is a huge advance in installation and functionality.

http://www.solyndra.com/Products/Optimized-PV

There are approximately 11 billion square meters of commercial rooftop surface available worldwide. Tapping even a small fraction of this potential would make a significant impact on the world’s energy needs.

Solyndra designs, manufactures and sells solar photovoltaic (PV) systems comprised of panels and mounting hardware for large, low-slope commercial rooftops. The Solyndra system is designed to enhance PV performance on commercial rooftops by converting more of the sunlight that strikes the total rooftop area into electricity.

Solyndra's panels employ cylindrical modules which capture sunlight across a 360-degree photovoltaic surface capable of converting direct, diffuse and reflected sunlight into electricity. Solyndra's panels achieve effective energy generation when mounted horizontally and spaced significantly closer together than conventional panels on a typical rooftop, thereby enabling greater rooftop coverage and enhanced energy production over the system’s lifetime.

The Solyndra system is lightweight and allows modules to be spaced apart within the panels so that wind can blow through them, thus eliminating the need for expensive mounting hardware and ballast typically required to secure conventional panels against uplift from the wind. The horizontal mounting and unique "air-flow" properties of Solyndra's solar panel design substantially simplify the installation process for Solyndra's PV systems. The ease of installation and simpler mounting hardware of the Solyndra system enables its customers to significantly reduce labor, hardware, design and other balance of systems costs, which account for a substantial portion of the total installed cost of a conventional PV system.
Using proprietary cylindrical CIGS modules and thin-film technology, Solyndra systems are designed to provide the lowest cost of electricity on commercial rooftops by delivering the lowest total systems costs per watt and the highest kilowatt hour production per rooftop for typical installations.

[FreakinDJ]

31. A perfect example of "Highly Profitable Green Tech"

The systems I dealt with in the early 90s offered a 6 - 24 month total pay-back.

After that it was all "Increased Profit Margin"

But corporations had trouble seeing the forrest through the trees. Many of which during the economic down turn of the early 90s were reluctant to procure the initial cash investment. Didn't matter that Saving/Profitability Margins of Energy Management Projects substantially OUT PRODUCED the Stock Market. Corporate Board Rooms are in the Dark on Green Technology

[Pavulon]

3. Who gets paid more, Engineer at indian point or sharon harris

or guys installing a technology not capable of delivering energy that can replace coal. Guy can leave the navy or civil program and make 80 grand at a job that cant be taken over by a dude in china or india. Seems reasonable to me.

Never mind the guys to build the plant. We export great westinghouse reactors but have not built any here in a while. Time to fix that.

[OhioBlue]

4. The money is flowing into grant programs - it is working.

here are some programs in Ohio that are underway.

It does take time for the grant monies to flow through all the channels, as it should. When they are using tax payer money for private or local government projects, they need to make sure the grant programs have appropriate controls and applications are for those monies show that the applicant has done their homework, has a plan and will use the money as intended. There are also programs for training workers to install, manufacture, etc. advanced energy components. Training programs take time to set up, fund and obviously it takes time to actually train people. ARRA money is flowing, it is being used as intended. it just isn't an instant gratification type scenario. And it isn't just purty talk as the poster above indicated. it is real.

http://development.ohio.gov/newsroom/releases/press.htm?id=4201

http://development.ohio.gov/newsroom/releases/press.htm?id=4187

WIND PROJECTS

* Archbold Area Local Schools (Fulton County) - $750,000 to install a 500 kW wind turbine and integrate the technology as a teaching tool in the classroom.
* Cuyahoga County Board of Commissioners (Cuyahoga County) - $1 million to install a 600 kW wind turbine at the Cuyahoga County Fairgrounds in conjunction with a career and new energy training center.
* Green City Growers Cooperative (Cuyahoga County) - $1 million to install a 1.5 MW wind turbine to power a 5.35 acre greenhouse and a 40,000 square-foot facility that will process fresh produce for Northeast Ohio.
* Huron-Wind LLC and City of Huron (Erie County) - $280,500 to install a 100 kW wind turbine.
* Kenston Local School District (Geauga County) - $630,500 to install a 600 kW wind turbine and integrate the technology as a teaching tool in the classroom.
* Lincoln Electric Company (Cuyahoga County) - $1 million to install a 2.5 MW wind turbine at its manufacturing facility.
* Pettisville Local Schools (Fulton County) - $750,000 to install a 500 kW wind turbine and integrate the technology as a teaching tool in the classroom.
* Toledo Electric Joint Apprentice and Training Committee (Lucas County) - $420,000 to install a 100 kW wind turbine to serve as a training tool for 1,000 apprentices.



SOLAR ELECTRIC PROJECTS

* Affinity Building Systems, Inc (Montgomery County) - $292,684 to install a 105 kW solar photovoltaic system.
* City of Cincinnati, Duke Energy Convention Center (Hamilton County) - $252,937 to install a 93 kW photovoltaic array rooftop system at the Duke Energy Convention Center.
* City of Cincinnati Parks (Hamilton County) - $451,418 to install a total of 170 kW solar photovoltaic systems at 13 sites in the park system.
* Forest City Residential Management Inc., Midtown Towers (Cuyahoga County) - $1 million to install a 350 kW solar photovoltaic rooftop system on three of The Midtown Towers’ residential building complexes.
* Greater Cincinnati Water Works (Hamilton County) - $775,655 to install a 280 kW photovoltaic solar array rooftop system.
* Hull & Associates Inc, Bedford Office (Cuyahoga County) - $266,254 to install a 93 kW solar photovoltaic system at its office building in Northeast Ohio.
* Hull & Associates Inc, PNA Solar Project (Wood County) - $680,782 to install a 250 kW solar array project on Pilkington North America, Inc’s (PNA) Plant 21 site.
* IGS Energy (Franklin County) - $261,089 to install a 93 kW solar photovoltaic system on their corporate office building.
* Jewish Community Federation of Cleveland (Cuyahoga County) - $217,479 to install a 76 kW solar photovoltaic rooftop system at an office building built to LEED certification.
* METRO Regional Transit Authority (Summit County) - $1 million to install a 488 kW solar photovoltaic rooftop system located on its central bus barn.
* Ohio Department of Mental Health (ODMH), Summit Facility (Hamilton County) - $652,932 to install a 232.65 kW solar photovoltaic rooftop system.
* Solar Vision LLC, Athens City Community Center (Athens County) - $631,637 to install a 220 kW photovoltaic solar array system on four carport structures in the parking lot of the Athens City Community Center.
* Solar Vision LLC, Bexley Police (Franklin County) - $335,328 to install a 117 kW photovoltaic array system on four new carport structures in the parking lot.
* Toledo Museum of Art (Lucas County) - $282,264 to install a 100 kW solar rooftop system.
* Toledo Zoo (Lucas County) - $306,837 to install a 103 kW solar system.



SOLAR THERMAL PROJECTS

* Great Lakes Brewing Company (Cuyahoga County) - $190,082 to install two hot water heating systems.
* Parkway Local Schools (Mercer County) - $16,080 to install a solar thermal system.

[FreakinDJ]

7. Use Google Earth - take a look at all the unused roof tops

pick any major city its absurd

[gimama]

14. Google Earth won't show all the blue tarps on roofs

damaged by hurricane Ike,16 months ago..
cuz the google folks haven't been here since '07-08.

(google-earth photography.. THAT seems like a fun job,huh?!)

[tuvor]

17. Google Earth data isn't realtime.

My area hasn't been updated in at least a couple of years, judging from the current lack of a well-used thoroughfare.

[OhioBlue]

19. well, while I agree with you on the potential

you must agree, that there is no magic wand to wave and place solar panels on every roof top. There are a lot of good programs underway and a lot of people working really hard toward your vision. Several states have passed Renewable energy districts, local colleges are working on training programs, the Government is working on grant programs and incentives, private sector is working on technology, non-profits such as Great Lakes Wind, is working on supplier networks... people are FREAKIN' working on this and dedicating a lot to it. If this is your passion, research what is going on in your State or City and work on it.

[FreakinDJ]

22. Not enough to "Drive the Technology"

Break throughs in Photo-Voltaic are on the horizon but "Lack of a Market Place" has stagnated the research.

By mandating the use of this technology it will "Fast Track" the development of more cost efficient, and energy efficient products. The BULK of Green Tech is being applied to residential consumers. Time for business to join in

[Brickbat]

6. Looking forward to hearing how these jobs can't be outsourced, too.

Waiting...waiting...

[FreakinDJ]

8. No Tax deduction for non-USA made products

[gimama]

9. Thanks for this post! How 'bout some WPA, CCA,

or REBUILDING THE GULF COAST???OR..
how 'bout restoring & rebuilding the lives of First Americans,
on "Reservations" across the US? Excellent work being done by
www.can-do.org ..ck out the incredible & heart-breaking doc/vids on you-tube,
on the CROW Creek Rez. in SD..I'll try & post some.

SO MUCH needs doing.. & SO MANY need & want to WORK! What the HELL, Mr.President???

[jillan]

10. Biden has been working like crazy on this over the last month.

There's been a few posts, and things have been happening.

[gateley]

18. ,,,

:thumbsup:

[blues90]

11. green jobs ? I'm not holding my breath , You know damn well they will go to the energy corps

who have all the money not to real american jobs that pay a living wage. Many will be outsourced and the same remains the same. It's just another damn lie.

[FreakinDJ]

20. During the 90s California legislated Energy Companies to

institute Energy Savings programs (reductions in energy demand) - they were HIGHLY successful and generated 10s of 1000s of GOOD PAYING jobs. And that was almost exclusively California alone. The Technology is their for a Whole New Generation of Green Energy Producing Products that will ultimately produce reductions in CO2

[blues90]

27. I know I live in Calif . However these green jobs now will not be ours

Yes the technology is there but the money is not. Do you actually think for a second that the energy corps are going to loss out to the private sector?

[w4rma]

12. I have one. Albeit, my pay is low for what I do. (nt)

[Pavulon]

13. Solar and windmills will be made in china or some other body shop. Like microchips

and every other electronic dodad you use. Including your pc. You cant outsource reactor systems. The body shops buy from us because we make the best in the world. That china money pays lots of americans for a change.

[OhioBlue]

24. no.

windmills aren't going to be made overseas - they are too big. International firms are looking to build plants here. Solar panels - Toledo has one of the biggest solar panel manufacturers in the world. yes - china is starting to go really heavy into solar panel manufacturing, and it is a threat to the potential for job creation in that area, but we are building solar panels and Chinese firms are even looking to locate their own manufacturing facilities here for US sales. There is a lot of potential for U.S. manufacturing and they still have to be installed locally.

[Pavulon]

30. It starts off being made here, like VCRs and TVs

and then production ships overseas. I think every penny used in solar or wind should be forced to US companies. The business model for offshoring is a mess.

[FreakinDJ]

Stipulated through the use of the Corp TAX Code

those jobs and the manufacturing country of origin could be USA

I agree it is 2 fold, but that doesn't mean ALL the necessary language could not be contained in 1 bill

[sad sally]

52. how about all those "green" appliances?

Bring back manufacturing refrigerators, washers/dryers, hot water heaters to the US. What happened to the campaign promise to give businesses a $3,000 credit for every US job created? Wouldn't that be an incentive for US compaines to reopen closed plants? Everybody can't be an unemployed lawyer...

[mzmolly]

15. Good question.

eom

[TexasObserver]

16. That promise isn't in his secret "these are the ones I keep" list.

[OhioBlue]

21. See my post above

there is a lot of money in ARRA that IS in fact flowing into green jobs. This isn't something that can happen in a short period of time. But it is happening. Incentives are there for the installation, incentives are there for training and manufacturing.

[OhioChick]

23. In China and India...

US offshores 22,000 green jobs to India
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3850836

Also an article in LBN within the past year of China making solar panels, etc. for the US.

[gmoney]

50. where else?

that way they'll be sure to make all the products with plenty of lead, mercury, formaldehyde, asbestos and melamine! With slave labor to boot! Yeehaw! Profits galore!

[tranche]

25. There was a major investment in the Stimulus package.

Largest in history I'd heard. Doesn't mention that here, but there are articles:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10204816-54.html

What exactly are you expecting from Obama besides trying to lead us there? Do you have an idea of what you're thinking? As far as your suggestions, is this something he should be coming up with? Are you disappointed that a bill hasn't been introduced yet with your ideas?

[TransitJohn]

28. Time to spend some money

Earmark a couple trillion to build a high speed line New York to San Francisco....mirror the original transcontinental, but without such onerous corporate giveaways. Lots of jobs for a decade or so, and provide a much needed infrastructure improvement, and reduce GHG emissions. Win-win-win.

[ElmoBlatz]

32. I want a pony too!!!

The economy is in shambles, healthcare is a total mess, and we're apparently under siege from underwear bombers. PLUS, congress has not passed the cap and trade legislation that would raise the revenue to create "Green Tech Jobs". Its been a whole 11 months Mr. President!! WHERE IS MY PONY!!!!

[FreakinDJ]

36. Cap and Trade will not "Raise Revenue for American Economy"

That money would go to China to fund their "CO2 Emissions Reductions"

That was the reason the talks broke down in Copenhagen. China wanted the USA to give them the Technology and the Money to implement it

[ElmoBlatz]

38. Cap and Trade and Copenhagen are two different things

Granted, they are politically related, but if Congress passes and the President signs Cap and Trade legislation, that would create additional revenue that could be used for Green Tech jobs. If we decide to send that money offshore, that's a separate issue.

[FreakinDJ]

39. It is a "Given" the money would go to China's Industries

They have surpased the USA in emissions and will continue to climb for decades to come

[LWolf]

47. Wow.

One day and you've already absorbed and regurgitated one of the shallowest, blindest, most inane talking points ever repeated ad nauseum as an attack on those not enamored by the new center-right president to be read on DU.

Welcome, I think.

[ElmoBlatz]

48. No, I'm realistic

This "I want everything he promised RIGHT NOW" meme shows immaturity and quite simply, naivety. Washington works how Washington works. We elected a President; we didn't crown a King.

"where are the green jobs".... after less than ONE YEAR???? Do you expect the President to wave a magic wand?

Patience grasshopper..... patience.....

[LWolf]

49. Except that there is no

"I want it right now."

A year is not "right now."

I don't expect any green jobs from Obama; I never did. It was a different candidate, one who was not nominated, that promised a green works program.

Still, I think it's completely legitimate to note that it didn't take him more than a year to bail out banks or to tie a privatization agenda to so-called "stimulus" funds for public education.

To note that his priorities put workers behind others; notably banks, insurance companies, and "reformers" who want to further privatize education.

[xiamiam]

33. escalating the war in afghanistan to protect consruction of the pipeline

at a cost of $100 billion for the next year and who knows how many killed and wounded tells me that alternative energy source is not the first priority

[TravisBickle79]

34. Latency and Legacy Regulatory Framework

Finally a topic on here I can discuss knowledgeably.

I make my living by financing solar power installations. Here a few reasons that the magic wand is not working as quickly as it should:

- Patchwork regulations. There are over 450 local utilities in the USA. Each of them is a monopoly and each on has its own way of handling the addition of on site generated power to their respective grid. For example, on Long Island, NY you can go to jail for selling electricity across property lines....only LIPA ( LI Power Authority ) can do that.

- Roof condition. Solar panels last a loooong time, so if the underlying roof is not "newish" then the roof needs to be re-done before the solar panels go on. More cost, more lead time.

- Rebates / Subsidies. The economics of solar power don't work without subsidies. So, with 450 or so local power monopolies out there this means 450 or so different ways of handling it. LIPA rebates at $3.50 per 1,000 watts. Other places use a "cap and trade" sort of credit system ( New Jersey ), others use feed in tariffs, etc.

- After subsidies, the economics of solar are driven chiefly by the avoided cost. In other words it works best where utility rates are the highest. Long Island's rates are around 20 cents per kwh ( very high ). It gets relatively little sunshine as compared to most places in the USA, but their rates can be as much as 60% less.....which throws the economics out the window.

I can go on and on, but the problem is not as easy as it looks. Just one more.......many utilties are political patronage sorts of jobs. For example, most of the directors at LIPA don't even live within LIPA's jurisdiction. It is hard to light a fire under a bureaucratic monopoly.

I think Obama recognizes the difficulty of streamlining this mess, so he hopes to raise electric rates via the "Cap and Trade" route then let the marketplace adjust to the higher cost of electricity. Of course, poor people can't afford another dime for their utility bills, so here comes another round of subsidies for them with its attendant political gnashing of teeth from the usual suspects.

A residential solar system can be functioning in a day and a half of installation time. However, it typically takes to 6 to 9 months to handle all the paperwork involved, settle the rebates, etc. Remember also, the actual installation of these systems is done by local contractors, usually converted roofers or electricians. These are not well capitalized guys that can wait many months for rebates....another logjam.

Finally, keep in mind that it took many decades to put the incumbent system in place. It won't be replaced overnight.

[conscious evolution]

43. welcome to DU

I am an electrician trying to get into solar/alt power.You definitely have hit nail on head concerning solar power financing problems.
You have a company website or ccontact info you could forward?

[FreakinDJ]

56. EXCELLENT FIRST POST +1000

Former Energy Management System Engineering here friend

Yes I am SUPER Well acquainted with the all too numerous log jams presented by the different jurisdictions. It demonstrates all the more the necessity for National/Federal Legislation to lift the road blocks, get America working again, and make some progress towards reducing America's carbon footprint.

[conscious evolution]

35. There is 85 billion available

for rural farms and ranches to vonvert to alt power.Grants up to 25% of the cost.
Trying to tap into that money myself.

[FreakinDJ]

37. 11 billion square meters of commercial rooftop surface available worldwide

Hard to argue that this is 1 sector of the "Green Energy Debate" that will need to be mandated through legislation

[Dappleganger]

40. Well I'm not sure if they're getting breaks from the Stimulus...

but there's a new battery manufacturing company coming to Jacksonville called Saft (based out of France, with a plant in Atlanta too). Dh is going to try to get his foot into the door as soon as they begin hiring. They are considered 'green', but then again I have no idea what kind of federal help they are getting.


Edited to add: They aren't closing down the Atlanta plant, the Jax one is an addition.

[Bluenorthwest]

41. We lost the key employee in Green jobs, Van Jones.

Van is probably the best person in the nation for that post. But he is gone now.

[DeeOwl]

42. They are coming....

...right behind health care for all.

[Vidar]

44. K&R. Green jobs aren't profitable for Obama's beloved banks.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dionysus]

53. so very, very bitter.

:rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. Here.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/19481223/Green-Job-Creation

[treestar]

54. He'll be in the WH at least 4 years

I guess he is supposed to do it all the first and then go on vacation for the latter 3?

[dionysus]

55. you're wasting your breath. they'll be a new poutrage next week.