Train new teachers? There are 100K unemployed engineers and scientists that could use the jobs

[thunder rising]

However, absolutely every school administration that I've talked to will not hire them. They prefer you inexperienced cheap (foreign) recruits. There needs to be a review of the hiring requirements.

Engineers make great teachers because they actually know WHY the science is used.

[LearnedHand]

1. They're unqualified, don't you know

They haven't had the teaching methodology classes, so OBVIOUSLY they aren't fit to teach our children. :sarcasm:

[Captain Hilts]

6. Make them take 4 years of 'education' classes! Ugh!

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. Your sarcasm smiley is unnecessary

But hey, you are welcome to come to my classroom any day and try to teach. I'll give you an hour. :)

[cloudbase]

51. Won't work.

They generally have low tolerances for bullshit.

[LearnedHand]

66. It's very sad that an educational degree

is one third your subject matter and two-thirds "methodology." Obviously there needs to be *some* instruction in classroom management, but truthfully, I'd much rather learn math from an engineer than from a math education major. I went to a very small college for grad school, so the education majors took the same core classes as the non-education majors. While the non-education majors were doing research papers, the education majors were doing bulletin boards. It was embarrassing and disheartening.

[MadHound]

2. Actually trying to teach without actually learning how to teach is a recipe for disaster

I've seen it too often in the classroom, somebody has the experience in the content area, but doesn't have the pedagogy to teach their way out of a paper bag and their classes simply melt down on the spot.

[thunder rising]

11. I call BS on that. I have taught 2nd graders and Jr high. My students scored higher on every test.

Literally you have no idea what you are talking about.

Engineers teach everyday. They teach business majors what they are doing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. Bullshit

The fact that you think business majors are the same as 2nd graders and jr high kids speaks volumes about your ignorance on the topic.

[thunder rising]

26. Let's see there are 2 factors, first the subject matter and 2nd the ability to teach

Engineers know the subject matter so that reduces the risk considerably. Second, if you don't think managers act any better than 2nd graders shows you don't know squat about life outside a classroom.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. You don't know squat about jr high kids OR 2nd graders

But I'd be glad to provide you a trial by fire. :rofl:

[thunder rising]

do too ... do not .. apparently one of us knows 2nd grade.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. I'm sure you know a lot about it since it's obvious you spent more than a year or two

enrolled in a 2nd grade class.

Probably wouldn't hurt you to do another run at it.

[thunder rising]

64. Yet again, I'm floored by your deep insight and gift of the language. Please continue...

[cherokeeprogressive]

85. I know that from what I've seen of your responses to this sub-thread, you'd lose all

credibility with your students the first time someone disagreed with you.

You've not shown me any pedagogic ability whatsoever.

[LWolf]

123. Can I watch?

:popcorn:

[MadHound]

42. Oh, I know about life outside the classroom,

Having spent a number of years working at a nuclear plant also, I know engineers. Engineers know the subject matter, but again, until you learn how to effectively impart that knowledge they are useless as teachers.

And if you actually think that adults learn and act differently than elementary students then thanks, you just proved my point for me, that whole lack of pedagogy thing that I mentioned earlier. Tell me, do the names Gardener, Vygotsky, or Bloom mean anything to you?

Let me guess, you think that veterinarians would make fine neurosurgeons as well.

[Dinger]

67. Touché MadHound:

"Let me guess, you think that veterinarians would make fine neurosurgeons as well."


:rofl: :applause:

[thunder rising]

These "teachers" are not very gifted at arguement. I guess that comes from Ed classes

Your arguments are pathetic and shallow. Strawman heavy.

[TicketyBoo]

138. I apologize in advance,

but when you said you spent a number of years working at a nuclear plant, I couldn't help but think of Homer Simpson.

(I already apologized, but, again, I'm sorry.)

[MadHound]

155. No need to apologize, I laugh about it all the time,

Especially since I'm bald, though not fat or yellow skinned.

What was even a worse conundrum for me was the fact that for a number of years I was making money in a field that I utterly detested and had even gotten jailed over once (protesting the construction of a nuclear power plant in the area).

[TicketyBoo]

162. Homer's favorite donuts

would take care of the "not fat" part, but if you develop yellow skin, I'd advise a trip to your doctor for liver tests.

[RayOfHope]

107. Tell me what you know about identifying learning issues and meeting the different learning

styles of early childhood students. You know, since engineers know so much about teaching and all.

[Catshrink]

154. Not to mention modifying curriculum to meet the needs of sped kids

yet challenging and engaging those who are "gifted." Hm.... how about matching test questions to state standards?

My guess is those dissing the value of pedagogy think teaching means standing in front of a group of kids and spewing "facts" that the kids absorb and regurgitate on an exam thus proving that the teacher is great. Wow. Kids can memorize. Obviously, those of us in the trenches know that this scenario out of Leave It to Beaver does not engage kids or challenge them to think critically or meet the needs of kids who don't fit the mold.

But, what can we teachers do? There's no convincing these armchair education experts who think that since they've been to school they know how to do our jobs. Well, there is one way to convince them and P2B offered it up: come do my job for an hour, for a day. Plan to spend two days prepping for it, you know, aligning the lesson to the state and district curriculum, noting the modifications for the sped students and documenting them, preparing the "manipulatives" or lab materials, handouts, powerpoint/other lecture materials that will be used. Pencil in time for parent emails/phone calls, discipline issues that might arise, attendance recording, grading and recording, helping/mentoring colleagues as necessary, chatting with students, observing student behavior and being alert for the need to refer students whom you suspect might be harming themselves or be in danger to the social worker, be aware of students who are facing difficulties with concepts/reading/math/processing and who should be referred for sped testing, and of course, pee and have lunch when you have a second or two here and there. Did I forget anything? Oh yeah, make sure you have a really thick skin to protect you from the shit thrown your way by every idiot who's been to school and think your job is easy.

[Dinger]

61. + Infinity

Spot on p2B!

[Mopar151]

79. They act about the same.....

The cliquishness, the concept that jeering, hooting, shouting down, and talking trash are far superior to calculation and reason, the laser focus on avoiding responsibility and blowing off "hard" work, the utter disdain for scholarship and workmanship in their own work.
I'm not saying I should walk into a classroom tomorrow - but I wouldn't have much trouble with the subject matter. Pedagogy might well be another matter.

[MadHound]

24. Yeah, right, I have no idea what I'm talking about, what the fuck ever

No idea except I've been in the classroom for years, observed teachers such as yourself, and frankly found them wanting. You may do just fine, but the fact of the matter is that anecdotal evidence doesn't a case make, and the actual statistics on this simply don't bear your contention out.

Oh, and having students being able to regurgitate answers for standardized testing is not that great a measure of how good a teacher somebody is, anybody can teach to a test:shrug:

Oh, and teaching adults is far, far different than teaching children, but being the great teacher that you are, you should know that, right?:eyes:

[thunder rising]

30. Tunnel vision. Job protection. Whatever?

[MadHound]

46. No, simply trying to protect kids from idiots who think that because they know the content area

That they can teach. A common fallacy that has, sadly, done much damage to many, many students.

[treestar]

130. But as a non-teacher all you can do is regurgitate what you know

It doesn't mean a 2nd or 8th or 10th grader will get it.

Plenty of people talk to me and I don't understand them. They don't know how to communicate.

[cherokeeprogressive]

83. Try teaching adults in a vocational setting like I did.

7 year olds can be told the sky is blue because there's a big blue filter between them and the sky, and if the teacher says it with confidence, a large number of them will swallow it.

Jr. highschoolers aren't listening. The girls are busy brushing their hair and the boys are only hoping that hardon goes away before the class bell rings.

"My students scored higher on every test". WTF does THAT mean? Higher than snails? Higher than the students in the classroom next door where the teacher read a newspaper during class time?

Adults know when you're bullshitting, and they know when you're being straightforward with them. I know. I taught adult vocational education for ten years.

[ChoralScholar]

92. Scored higher than what?

I digress. Some people have an innate ability to teach, some do not. Many people with and without education degrees fail in the classroom. Many people with and without education degrees succeed in the classroom.

[PVnRT]

97. Sure they did

And bullshit on you. I'm an engineer, and 75% of these people couldn't teach basic math to advanced students if they had to. Communication skills amongst most engineers are non-existant, and that's a big part of what you need to teach.

[Ms. Toad]

115. As someone who taught for 11 years, and was good at it,

my skill had little to do with the pedagogy I learned in my education classes, and more do do with who I am, how I interact with people, and my communication skills.

I do agree teachers need to know how to teach, and that being knowledgeable about one's subject matter has little to do with whether or not one knows how to teach.

I disagree, though, that learning pedagogy in an academic classroom and/or student teaching is a crucial pre-requisite for being a good teacher. In my experience, education classes are less related to creating good teachers than they are to providing a barrier to entry to the profession for those less motivated to become teachers.

One of the crucial skills for a math or science teacher to be able to identify where a student is stuck and to nudge them to a next logical step from where they are. Far too many people who are very talented in their field are rigid - they have developed an algorithm for problem solving that works exceedingly well for them but can't envision a different path to the solution. When their method of problem solving is not a good match for their students' way of thinking they have no alternative but to start the student over and lead them down a path that is unnatural for the student and which squashes the student's development of his or her own algorithm for problem solving.

That skill requires knowledge of the subject matter, flexibility in approaching problem solving (or at least the ability to see many different solutions to the same problem), and the ability to communicate in a way that encourages the student to figure out a next step without being told directly what that step is. Essentially the ability to think outside of the box, and to be able to communicate with others about that thinking. None of those things are related, in any way, to the hours I wasted in the teacher training classrooms.

[undeterred]

117. Most college professors have no formal training in teaching.

[dtsteelsmith]

121. and it shows... nt

[GoCubsGo]

126. Sad, but true.

My degrees are in science, and I have taken numerous classes with professors who were brilliant in their field, but they couldn't teach their way out of a paper bag. That's not to say it's always the case, however. Others were some of the best teachers I ever had. Whether one has an education degree, or is an expert in some scientific field, there will always be some great teachers among them, and some really shitty ones.

[CK_John]

3. Engineers and scientists are grossly over qualified and student are under prepared to learn. n/t

[thunder rising]

58. I found the kids inquisitive and motivated.

They really wanted to know why and how abstractions are important and how they would be applied in the future.

Engineers know!

[Captain Hilts]

4. My high school in Va. Beach had a lot of retired Navy officers teaching. They were very good.

They have a lot of experience dealing with teenagers and kids gave them less crap.

[arcadian]

8. What High School did you go to?

I went to FC.

[Captain Hilts]

14. Bayside! Beat FC in tennis twice in my senior year....nt

[arcadian]

70. Dang. awesome

:hi:

[Captain Hilts]

71. At least we both hate Cox and PA! Cheers!

[arcadian]

82. The districts were redrawn

If I lived in the house I grew up in and went to HS today, I'd be going to Cox. The whole North end of the beach now goes to Cox.

[sandnsea]

5. They prefer educators

You know, people who spent their lives perfecting their knowledge of the brain, social behavior, cultural influence, and all the other factors that figure into whether a child learns or not. Knowing 2+2=4 does not make you capable of teaching 400 different children how to add.

[Captain Hilts]

12. True. But the talent pool needs to be dramatically widened. Folks/women who became

teachers 40 years ago, do not become teachers now. They become lawyers, doctors, etc. The talent pool has shrunken terribly.

[sandnsea]

35. And women who were mothers

are becoming doctors, lawyers, and teachers. There is plenty of talent.

And if there isn't, then we need to question whether education is the economic solution in the long run anyway.

[Captain Hilts]

59. I have several family members who teach elem school and high school. The

problem is that the talent pool is more shallow than it was 40 years ago. It's that simple.

And, few folks are going to pay $30+K a year for an education to get a job that pays so little. You can't pay off those debts teaching.

[MadHound]

109. Gee, sounds like the solution is that we need to pay teachers more, like the professionals they are,

Rather than trying to plug gaps with people who have no clue as to how to teach a class.

[Pithlet]

124. This is the answer.

:thumbsup:

[era veteran]

136. A lot of the male teachers 40 years ago were beating the draft

[thunder rising]

75. And all that and Johnny still can't read or get into college. I'd say something is wrong.

[Mind_your_head]

7. Hey, my ex is a now a first year chemistry teacher.....

Just b/c you 'know' a subject doesn't mean that you know how to teach it to others! One has to go back to school to learn about the 'art of teaching'. Sure, some people are 'naturals' at it....but, in case you're not a 'natural' teacher ;-) ~ and even if you 'are a natural teacher'....best to learn some tips, tricks, techniques, etc. Don't you agree?

[frazzled]

9. "foreign recruits"?

Oops: I think your (fantasized) xenophobia is showing.

[JVS]

15. Oh BS, the local school was filled with Mexicans who can't even teach the kids in English!

:sarcasm:

[thunder rising]

17. Really? So, I supposed the fantasized H1-B teachers that sign 2 contracts don't exist

They sign one contract with the school and another with the recruiting company that indentures them to the job

[treestar]

131. LOL, the dreaded H-1Bs!

I thought they took IT jobs away! Little did I know they were so evil! You mean they are teachers, too?

:rofl:

Those 65,000 people sure cover a lot of territory!

I bet is has something to do with NAFTA :hide:

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. It takes a lot more than knowledge of subject matter to be a good teacher

Knowing how to TEACH would be far more important. And that is not as easy as some would like to think it is.

[thunder rising]

19. There are a lot of certified teachers that have neither. At least an engineer knows the topic.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. What a load of horse pucky

Certified teachers have college degrees and have passed competency tests in their subject field. Are you going to next claim those tests are worthless?

[thunder rising]

34. Engineers and scientists just picked their titles up off gum wrappers?

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. Only the ones posting crap like you are posting

:hi:

[thunder rising]

49. You're really a teacher? Wow, I love your gift of conversation. Does it work in the classroom?

Do you know where the song lyrics came from "Just Another Brick in the Wall". Look at your inability to debate.

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. I'm smart enough not to start asshole threads attacking an entire profession

You on the other hand apparently need some time in the time out chair.

[thunder rising]

73. I really don't see you a person with your imature debate skills can be a teacher. "Time out chair"?

[treestar]

132. Why just engineers and scientists?

Wouldn't your theory apply to just anyone?

Only the French should teach French (H-1b I guess? :rofl:)

Only writers should teach literature and grammar.

Only athletes should teach gym.

[FLDCVADem]

95. How is it...

...that if a teacher passes a test, that means he or she is competent to teach, yet those same teachers say that testing students is meaningless?

[MadHound]

110. Because to become a teacher you're doing a lot more than "passing a test"

You go through the pedagogy and the content area, students who go into teaching, especially teaching middle school and high school essentially have to get two degrees, one in their content area and one in education. Along the way they have to go through a number of assessments, ones for their practicums, one for their student teaching, certification test, portfolio, final presentation, etc. etc. It isn't simply a matter of passing a test and becoming a teacher.

[FLDCVADem]

113. Yes, I understand that

However, I was responding to the post that basically said teachers pass their tests, so of course they're qualified.

I just find it interesting that many of the same teachers that pass the tests which measure their ability to teach become teachers who scream from the rooftops that you can't judge whether or not a student has learned by giving those students a test.

[Dappleganger]

149. Engineers have college degrees, advanced degrees and pass multiple competency tests

in their field as well. Are those worthless?

[PVnRT]

98. Prove it

If you're an engineer (which I'm starting to doubt), you would know the importance of providing justification for an assumption.

[YvonneCa]

139. What high horse are you riding that...

...makes you assume teachers DON'T know the topic?

[madrchsod]

32. that is the key is`t it.....

there are a handful of teachers that i still remember because they were influential during my school years. i suppose they still are today. my biggest regret in life is not going to college to become an art and history teacher. i had a free ride but screwed up.

[a la izquierda]

106. I study history because of several wonderful HS teachers...

but I'm sure as hell not going to teach in elementary or high school. I KNOW that I couldn't do it without blowing my top on a weekly basis. In college, kids come or they don't. If they don't, they fail. My friends who obsess over their college students usually end up freaking out.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

89. Knowing how to teach something you don't understand? I'm sorry that's just funny.

[harun]

96. It isn't easy but a lot of Engineering professionals have had to teach in their

previous day jobs. I'd take Engineer's documenting how things work to teach me something over an Academics theory of how things should work any day.

[MadHound]

111. And again, those engineers that are "teaching" you are dealing with adults, not children

Huge difference right there. Which is why teachers go to college, to learn how to teach students.

Having taught both adults and kids, let me tell you, teaching adults is one hell of a lot easier.

[harun]

116. Yah, I was thinking more of teaching older people. As an

Engineer the thought of teaching young students scares the hell out of me. I wouldn't go anywhere near that :-).

[tango-tee]

108. Agree!

I went to school in Germany, graduating in 1970. Several of my classmates and I are still in touch with our favorite teacher who retired many years ago. I've often wondered what his secret to teaching was; there was no commotion in his classroom, we actually enjoyed his classes and learned something (BTW, among other subjects he taught English, and I've loved this language since "day one").

His secret seems to have been that he took us seriously. There was no talking down to us as silly, hormone-driven teenagers, he asked for opinions and loved to point out to us where we were right or wrong in our thinking. Frequently, we would veer from the subject at hand, would discuss politics - at that time, the Vietnam war - but we had to do it in English, which made us study our verbs and tenses that much more thoroughly.

From reading your posts, I am convinced you are one of these wonderful, gifted teachers! Your students will have fond memories of you in the years to come.

[TicketyBoo]

141. MORE important?

It would be hard to teach something if you didn't know the subject matter!

I agree that you have to know how to teach, but knowing the subject matter is every bit as important.

[salin]

153. Certainly... and the one of the biggest factors is desire to make sure students learn

have worked with those who have pedagogic information/training and those with primarily subject area information/training - and found both fantastic and disaster area teachers. Give me either - with the drive and dedication to what students learn... and there is a potentially great educator. Then give those folks (with the drive and desire) that part of the training that may lack and hinder the teaching ... and recipe for success. The BS I find in the OP is the notion that it is universal that schools are hiring foreign teachers over domestic - either traditionally or transitionally trained. Sure I have read isolated incidents where districts do this - but I have never witnessed a school/district doing this.

[JVS]

13. Why do people assume that pedagogy is not a legitimate requirement to teach?

[Captain Hilts]

16. Because college professors get NO training, and some are very good. nt

[thunder rising]

21. Most are very good. Some are crap.

[Captain Hilts]

22. Same as high school. nt

[JVS]

44. Students can't drop and join another section in HS

[janx]

50. Good point. n/t

[Captain Hilts]

52. True. But I didn't do that in college. That's only an option in freshman level classes in

most colleges. Once you get to your major, you're stuck with whoever is teaching.

[JVS]

72. And generally it is accepted that more mature students are capable of doing more work independently.

While a 22 year old can listen to a lecture, even if it isn't necessarily well organized, we don't expect that of an 18 year old freshman. More mature students are expected to be able to cope with less accommodation as far as teaching technique is concerned. It should be obvious that elementary school students are not able to be lectured like college kids, and then there is the teenagers to deal with, some of whom can and some of whom can't deal with being given the bulk of responsibility to learn on their own. I want the people teaching in my local schools to know a bit more about development and teaching than simply the material being taught. And this does not even begin to scratch the surface of dealing with disciplinary issues, which I think a lot of educated people I know would fail at spectacularly.

[janx]

77. I expect it of the 18-year-old freshmen or even high school concurrent

students that I teach. But then I respect them as young men and women, and my love of what I teach seems to be infectious.

When you love what you teach and have certain expectations of and respect for your college students, "disciplinary issues" fall away.

[JVS]

78. You know what makes a lot of disciplinary issues fall away

Being at the university where students are free to not take classes and pay for the privilege of being present. If you have students who are compelled by law to be in your HS class, there can often be misbehavior. If two fifteen year olds are pissed off at each other, they may decide to do something about it in your class, no matter how much you like teaching and the subject. It's just life.

[janx]

86. They should be dismissed.

There should be tougher penalties for that kind of behavior. But again, that's why I won't teach in such a situation.

And come to think of it, the two fifteen-year-olds who are going at it in class are being paid for, with taxpayer money.

[JVS]

87. I'm happy I don't teach in such a situation either.

But I must acknowledge that for many educators in our country this is the reality, and I do not blame them for the creation of a bad environment over which they have little to no control.

[janx]

90. That environment has to change.

I'm in favor of educating as many people as possible, but if some kids can't handle education, they must be dismissed. It's the only way that anyone will have respect for education.

[TicketyBoo]

142. This is the very reason

why we got special permission to enroll our 12-year-old in the local community college. He was far more mature than his classmates, and I wanted him to see that school wasn't always going to be the undisciplined mess that was his middle school; that there was a light at the end of the tunnel.

[JVS]

80. Oh Janx, to avoid misunderstanding.

When I was saying "we don't expect that of 18 year old freshmen" I was referring to listening to a disorganized lecture. That's why the newest students are usually put in classes with recitations to be sure that they have access to a more interactive form of teaching.

[thunder rising]

81. That's exactly my experience. I had the guy that lines the football field draw two huge parallel

lines and a traversal. Gave everybody a piece of paper with a problem and they walked through the problems in teams.

When you love what you are teaching the kids react positively.

[janx]

91. They do--except that I don't refer to my students as kids,

because they are young college students.

[Captain Hilts]

105. I called mine 'ladies' and 'gentlemen'. Treated them like adults. I'd also

swear occasionally to underline that they were not in high school any more. I'd also wear an expensive business suit occasionally so they'd recognize one. I was disgusted by how sloppy some professors were-the male teachers in particular.

And I'd wear a graduation gown and mortar board to teach in to remind them what their goal was. I taught at a state U. with a huge non-finishing ratio.

Damn, I was good.

[Captain Hilts]

104. In reference to discipline, yes. But you can't succeed in science and math

by just being more disciplined.

There were huge issues about TAs in economics and sciences at both my undergraduate and graduate universities. One was a state zoo, the other a prestigious school. Same problem.

[janx]

23. Damn right--and I'm one of them!

:rofl:

[Captain Hilts]

25. I was one, too. nt

[JI7]

27. what do you teach ?

[janx]

33. College English (writing). I work full time but am paid part-time wages.

I'm barely able to survive. But I'm damn good at what I do, and I love doing it.

[madrchsod]

37. oh no.....my worst subject!

90+ credit hours and still have`t passed english 103....

[janx]

43. What is that supposed to mean?

:shrug:

[madrchsod]

54. i could graduate from my community college if i could pass 103

i`m thinking about going back and trying again...63 is`t to old to finally graduate is it?

[janx]

68. You don't know where I teach.

And you definitely don't know my qualifications. But thanks for degrading my job.

[TicketyBoo]

144. Did you take it that way?

I didn't. I took it to mean that the poster was doing a mea culpa about not passing, and was impressed that you were teaching a subject she was not able to pass.

That's the way I took it, anyway.

[TicketyBoo]

145. Did you take it that way?

I didn't. I took it to mean that the poster was doing a mea culpa about not passing, and was impressed that you were teaching a subject she was not able to pass.

That's the way I took it, anyway.

[lolly]

151. Not too old at all

I've had retirees in my classes--it's wonderful to have someone with perspective and experience in the class. Go for it.

[janx]

38. Many get some training, as graduate students,

but they don't have to pay money to learn how to teach what they love. ;-)

[Captain Hilts]

53. I don't know anyone who did. I sure didn't. As a TA I was just tossed

into the classroom with NO training whatsoever.

When I was hired to teach at a U. I just gave an audition lecture and that was it.

[JVS]

57. What was your grad program in and what course did they toss you into?

What book(s) did you select and how did you decide to arrange the semester. Tell us the story. I have a feeling that they did a lot more to set you up than just throw you in a classroom.

[Captain Hilts]

63. I've got better stuft to lie about. Poli Sci. Teaching assistant. No preparation for

my four sections of lecture and none on grading. Comparative government. Auditorium class of 200 kids.

That's the norm with my friends at other schools.

[JVS]

74. Did they have a course description written and a selection of texts for you, or...

did you have to mail that in the spring before you went to grad school so that students would be able to sign up? There must have been something. Also, four sections of lecture? This is ambiguous. Did you have 4 sets of students coming in for multiple lectures a week?

[Captain Hilts]

102. I did not choose texts. Most were chosen as the semester began. We were given no guidance on

grading exams and termpapers.

At my school TAs that taught the full course as a professor would, also did not choose their texts. Beyond that, they were flying blind. And the U didn't care because most of those classes - English, foreign languages - are for freshman non-majors. They really didn't care.

[proud2BlibKansan]

60. But that's not the case with education professors

[Captain Hilts]

65. That depends on the university and the program and the teacher. There's no rule. nt

[JVS]

76. Yes there is at least one rule. The department assigns you something and makes sure you are...

doing a competent job. If that condition is not met, your funding must either be gained through fellowships or you leave.

[Captain Hilts]

100. NO. They do not make sure you are competent. That is most certainly

not the case. I was in a class as an undergrad that could not understand the TA. The department didn't care. This is not unusual at all.

Most departments will tolerate a lot from TAs because they are cheap labor.

I'm glad to know that some schools - yours evidently - took a more 'hands on' approach to this issue, but most do not.

[janx]

62. Well...it depends on how one defines training.

I was tossed in as well! :rofl: (NO audition lecture required.)

[JVS]

41. That's bullshit. Most professors get apprenticed into teaching and thus get guidance along the way.

Graduate programs often include a pedagogy course. Also instructors are assigned to smaller teaching duties at the beginning of their teaching lives. For example leading a problem solving recitation in conjunction with a main lecture fronted by an experienced prof., or if one has very weak English they are assigned to grading homework problems while improving that skill. Moving up from there is the level where the grad student fronts a course, but this is nearly always done within the context of leading one section of Calc, Physics, French, etc. and there is usually a pre-set curriculum, syllabus, and learning objectives; once again chosen by a more experienced person. TA's go through observations by faculty members in order to assure that they are competent in the task of teaching. It is rare that a graduate student designs and teaches a course on their own unless they are either very precocious, or taking an ungodly amount of time to write the dissertation. I don't know why you would think that professors have no training.

[Captain Hilts]

69. No, that is not true. Perhaps at your university, but not at most. I've

never heard of a class in pedagogy offered as part of a non-teaching program. I'm sure it happens, but don't assume it's common at all.

[lolly]

146. Depends on the university

20-something years ago, I was met by the TA coordinator in my field on the way out of my graduate class. It was the 2nd week of my second quarter of grad school. I was told that the TA for a Freshman English class had left abruptly, and was offered the job. I took it--definitely needed the money--and enrolled in the teacher training class concurrently with my first quarter of teaching.

But that was it for prep. Went home, made a few changes to the syllabus, and went in the classroom the next day.

Yes, my teaching was horrible that quarter. If I could find all of those students, I should probably apologize to them.

[PVnRT]

99. Which is actually a problem, especially with TAs who do most of the teaching

"Some" are good. Others couldn't communicate with students if you held a gun to their head.

[Captain Hilts]

103. In economics and sciences, the language/understanding barrier between TAs and students

was often a problem.

Since it was often for intro classes for freshman non-majors, departments just didn't care.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. Because they are ignorant

Arrogant too.

[rwheeler31]

29. I agree to a point ,many people who have great skill or

knowledge are unable to teach because the do not know how they learn. The pay issue will be solved if we vote.

[pissedoff01]

36. I personally know 2 unemployed engineers who want to teach math and can't

because the local "teacher academy" which does the fast-track training and certification refused to accept them, even though they have master's degrees and love kids.

[thunder rising]

39. Make that 3 ... thunder rising is sitting on the sidelines listening to how their are no teachers

but can't get a slot.

[Generic Other]

114. "there," "their" and "they're" are different words

I wouldn't give ANYONE a job who couldn't distinguish the difference. Perhaps there is a reason you can't find a slot. They're hiring people who know their stuff especially where simple rules of grammar are concerned.

[tonysam]

88. And there are hundreds more who have done the grunt work

of traditional teacher education who have the same math and science skills AND can relate to kids of all ages.

Just because you worked in the business world doesn't mean it translates into the classroom.

[Dappleganger]

152. I know you mean well...

but the math and science skills which engineers have achieved usually surpasses those of elementary and secondary ed teachers, both in theory and practice.

[ChoralScholar]

93. In the state of Arkansas,

one can get non-traditional licensure if they have a bachelor's degree in a related field. For example, if I had a BS in Mechanical Engineering, I could apply for non-traditional licensure, and get hired by a school district. For the first three years I teach, I must attend weekend workshops on teaching, and pass the PRAXIS licensure tests for my subject area. After that happens, I would be given a full teaching license.

No University "teaching academy" required - it is sponsored by the state Dept. of Education.

It's not a bad gig... our teaching salaries are higher, on average, than those in the surrounding states.

[etherealtruth]

157. That sounds like a good plan.

Certainly one worth trying.

I don't think that everyone from a different field could step in to a role teaching children. I do think that with proper support and training well educated, motivated people with a multitude of different life and professional experiences could benefit our current educational system. This program appears to respect previous education accomplishments, as well as provide specific training.

[madrchsod]

47. now if we had universal health-care and a government investment program....

i wonder what kind of interesting things they would make for our society?

one of the foundations of an productive economy is an educated society.

[Dinger]

56. Unrec (nt)

[tonysam]

84. Stay the hell out of education--Please

First of all, you aren't qualified by virtue of being an engineer. You have to know HOW to relate to kids and know classroom management to even survive a classroom of 25 or 30 students of all kinds of learning abilities. You couldn't cut it if you tried.

Subject matter isn't the be all, end all.

Second of all, there is NO shortage of teachers. Colleges and universities are graduating too damned many people chasing too few jobs. There never HAS been a shortage, there will NEVER be a shortage until college students wise up and avoid this occupation.

Most important, you couldn't stand the fucking office politics that goes on in education--especially public education. You think it's easy--it isn't. The biggest, most crooked bunch of assholes on the face of the earth are public school administrators beginning at the principal level. They have absolute power to make or break you, and once they break you, your career is over. It is astonishingly EASY to fire and ruin teachers for the stupidest of reasons.

There is nothing like it in any other sector of the economy. Because the taxpayers foot the bill, districts can drag out lawsuits for years on end if you sue them hoping you settle for a pittance. Districts will always defend administrators--you will NEVER win against them unless you are tenacious.

[thunder rising]

94. Then why are the school districts importing H1-Bs?

OMG, you mean the districts are lying about a shortage?

You need to post the "non shortage" portion is a separate OP. It's important that folks know that the "shortage" is a lie. I know about those lies, I'm an engineer that stands behind 65K H1-Bs every year. They get the first shot at every job.


BTW: I teach math better than most; been there, done that, got the letters of recommendation.

[PVnRT]

101. Please provide evidence of your claim

[tonysam]

118. A few districts are actually hiring Filipinos to take spec ed jobs

but this isn't widespread. The OP believes he is owed a teaching job because he is a know-it-all on science. This person doesn't want to do the work necessary to make the "dream" come true. Given the OP's attitude about teachers, I wouldn't want that person anywhere near kids.

I am just telling the truth about public school districts and how rotten and political administrators are. I KNOW from experience.

Yeah, districts boot teachers for all kinds of stupid reasons or deny them tenure and in both instances to save money on salaries and benefits, but they really don't need to import teachers from other countries. As long as many as a quarter million students each year graduate with education degrees, while there are fewer than 50,000 new openings when times are good (and worsened with tens of thousands of experienced teachers also chasing the same jobs), school districts can and do treat teachers like dirty Kleenex: use them, abuse them, and then throw them away so they never have careers anymore. Soon the only teachers allowed lifetime careers in this field will be nepotisms.

Nepotism, by the way, is THE most serious obstacle to teachers getting hired whether or not there are "shortages" of teachers. Relatives of teachers and administrators ALWAYS have the inside track on jobs regardless of whether they have the qualifications. The incestuous nature of public education is why I propose there be a civil service system instituted for ALL public education employees.

[thunder rising]

127. Here's a list of many specialties; including special ed and math

http://www.myvisajobs.com/H1B_Visa_Employer.aspx?N=East+Side+Union+High+School+District&E=168133&OG=Education&SO=091&Z=95133&Y=All

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

112. It depends on how motivated and how much they would like/love to teach. I had

a chemistry teacher who was a failed chemist. He was a horrible, uninspired teacher.

[TicketyBoo]

147. It can also depend on what

the teacher may be going through in his/her personal life.

The year that I had high school chemistry, my teacher's wife had recently passed away. I'm sure he was wonderful in other years, but that year he was so distracted that he was horrible. He should have taken a year off to recuperate from his loss instead of subjecting his classes to his personal problems, but I'm sure he was there because it was too painful not to be. I still shudder when I think of that class.

[pissedoff01]

119. School districts across the country recruit Filipino teachers to fill shortages in math, science :

School districts across the country are recruiting Filipino exchange teachers to fill chronic shortages in math, science and special education teaching positions, according to the Los Angeles Times. More than 100 districts, including at least 20 in California, have hired teachers from the Philippines, Los Angeles immigration attorney Carl Shusterman says. And as many as 300 of the more than 600 foreign-exchange teachers in Los Angeles alone are Filipino..
http://www.diversityinc.com/content/1757/article/5554/?Filipino_Teachers_Fill_Gaps_in_Math_Science__Special_Ed
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/mar/18/local/me-filipino18

[treestar]

133. New interesting question

Would people on the thread rather have an American citizen US engineer who in not a trained teacher or a Filipino who is qualified as a teacher get the job?

[ddeclue]

120. I think it would be fine to use anyone with at least a bachelor's degree

to teach the subject in which they have that degree provided they have a work history using that degree or have recently graduated and still remember what they were taught in school.

That said, I think this should provisional upon them comitting to getting a teaching certificate within a certain period of time or being limited to substitute teaching or being able to demonstrate after a certain period of time that their students are performing at or above average as a group on standardized tests used for performance evaluation.

[LWolf]

122. Why do you assume that teachers are "trained"

rather than educated? That anyone with a bit of "training" can teach? School administrators don't "train" teachers; universities educate them, and states license them. Local unions work with districts to set salary schedules based on amount of education and number of years on the job.

Content knowledge is important.

So is knowledge of childhood development, brain research, psychology, statistics, and pedagogy.
Scientists and engineers are welcome to complete the education and internship required to earn a teaching license, of course. Then they can join all the rest trying to find a job.

WHY are the job prospects of unemployed engineers and scientists more important than the job prospects of all those already qualified and licensed teachers RIF'd last year, and all those who are facing lay-offs this year, as well?

[The Midway Rebel]

125. There are plenty of teaching jobs...

except that they are not in the plush white suburban school districts near major urban areas where you likely grew up.

If you want to teach in THOSE kind of places, you should learn to be an awesome coach or have an inside track with HR at your local district. OR, you could learn to teach an area with a true need such as Special Ed or behavior disorders. If you feel like you do not have the patience and tolerance for that kind of work and those types of students, you should likely reconsider teaching as a career all together.

Otherwise, you could move to a rural district or an urban core district where there is a need for teachers.

Check out Teacher-Teacher.com. I get e-mails from them all the time looking for teachers.

[tonysam]

140. I know it is hard to shake the media propaganda of lots of teaching jobs,

but there are NOT, no matter what a dumb website has. I get the same crap website that includes Washoe County School District, which definitely is NOT hiring for teachers except as one-year throwaways.

The urban districts like L.A. and Chicago, and D.C. and NYC, are infamous for corrupt administrators and huge, huge, huge turnover because of widespread teacher abuse and rotten working conditions.

There is NO shortage of teachers but a giant GLUT of teachers everywhere in the country and surpluses in all categories but for math.

This article bears repeating:

Since last fall, school systems, state education agencies, technical schools and colleges have shed about 125,000 jobs, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

At the same time, many teachers who had planned to retire or switch jobs are staying on because of the recession, and many people who have been laid off in other fields are trying to carve out second careers as teachers or applying to work as substitutes to make ends meet.

In Texas, the Round Rock school district had more than 5,000 applications for 322 teacher openings this year and saw its pool of subs almost double to 1,200, about 2 1/2 times as many as it needs even on a particularly bad day during flu season, said spokeswoman Joylynn Occhiuzzi.

"It is a tougher job market, and you get applicants that you might not normally have because of the economy," she said.

There never WAS a teacher shortage; cynics like myself felt districts pulled this shortage garbage to continue to treat their current teachers like dirt. After all, teachers would be afraid to do anything knowing there were hundreds standing in line to take their jobs.

[The Midway Rebel]

161. Article dead link: error 404

Round Rock is one of the best school districts in Texas and it is just outside of Austin. That is exactly the type of place I suggested you will NEVER get hired in. This section of the article bolsters my claim.

Like I said, plenty of jobs for teachers but none in content areas or geographic areas (i.e. suburban school districts) that folks want to work in.

[BlueCollar]

128. My experience with Engineers

would lead me to believe that most would not "...make great teachers."

Whilst almost all have been very good at what they do, it is not the deciding factor. Scientists are not "wired" the same way when it comes to communication skills. I can't tell you how many times I've had to go back and re-write Engineering instructions so that what the Engineer required, could actually be accomplished.

[janx]

159. I beg to differ!

At the tech university where I teach, we put a lot of effort into teaching writing, and some of the students there are very good at it. I think it's a stereotype that engineers and scientists are "wired" differently. There are some great science types who are famous writers as well--Carl Sagan is one STELLAR (haha) example.

[BlueCollar]

163. "...and some of the students there are very good at it."

I think your comment proves what I said.


"Some..." being the operative word

[treestar]

129. Where is this coming from?

Is there any proof of this?

At any rate, teachers should be teachers. Anyone in the profession knows far more about it than is necessary even for a college class. Elementary and high school students only need the basics. Better to have someone who knows how to teach it to them.

[dugaresa]

134. well i am an engineer and I have taught adults and children informally

the ability to teach well is about communication and whether you are an engineer, cook, chemist or teacher by training doesn't mean you have that ability. I have met many people who are such great communicators that they are natural teachers.

[AwakeAtLast]

135. You agree with Governor Daniels's Supt. of Education

That's Bennett (R). http://www.indystar.com/article/20100108/NEWS04/1080384/

My questions: Are engineers prepared to be paid a fraction of what an engineer gets paid? Are they prpared to meet with parents before school, after school, and during prep time? Are they prepared to attend staff meetings outside contract time? Are they prepared to fork over money out of their pockets to get the needed supplies for their lessons?

I think putting an engineer in a teaching position would be an eye-opening experience for them.

ETA link.

[anonymous171]

137. Aren't we supposed to have an engineering shortage right now?

[LeftyMom]

143. There aren't any teaching jobs to be had right now.

My sister went through a teaching program, did all the right things working in reading programs and stuff to get connections and get her foot in the door, and next year she's going to sub and work on her MA at night, because nobody's hiring. Luckily she's worked in reading programs and such at enough local schools that she should be able to get fairly steady work as a sub.

[Dappleganger]

148. My husband is way overqualified

and we could not live on a teacher's salary. He's doing contract work at 70% of what he made before and we're just getting by. He's a mechanical engineer (pharma) with two master's degrees. He could probably teach at the college level but not sure they could pay enough there either.

[salin]

150. haven't heard of schools hiring cheap foreign recruits in the midwest...

and in my city there have been several initiatives to bring (and offer training/credentialing) professionals (esp engineers and scientists) interested in entering the teaching profession.

[DailyGrind51]

156. They would ALL have to become State certified anyway and get paid at union scale.

Unless they are private school teachers?

[salin]

158. sounds about right.

[dysfunctional press]

160. "Engineers make great teachers because they actually know WHY the science is used."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

a LOT of engineers only THINK they'd make great teachers.(a lot of engineers seem to think that they'd make great ANYTHINGS)
the problem is- it takes more than just knowledge of the material in order to teach it- it takes communication skills...which MANY of them are sorely lacking in.