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Blue State Blues Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:03 PM
Original message
What the Cadillac Tax Would Mean To Me
I have been reading posts that talk about the Cadillac tax in abstract terms, as a tax that would impact only wealthy people with wonderful benefits or professional athletes, or some class of "other people."

I don't know about other people, so I'm going to talk about me. I am not a professional athlete. I am not a union member. I have the great fortune to enjoy good health and to have a healthy family, but we are not wealthy and we do not have wonderful benefits.

Our health insurance benefits are, at best, adequate. And yet, within two years, at the current rate of premium increase, our plan will fall under the Cadillac Tax.

Our plan is not a Cadillac of plans, by any stretch of the imagination. We have co-payments, we have limits on covered expenses, we must use in-network providers or face additional deductibles and cost-sharing. We have no dental or vision coverage at all -- if we did, we'd probably fall under the Cadillac Tax now.

My coverage is not great, it's not even good. It's just expensive.

That's an important point. The cost of coverage is not always or only related to the quality of the coverage. The cost is largely based number of people in the risk pool and the relative health of the people in the risk pool. Additionally, a large number of subscribers helps an employer negotiate a better deal with the insurance company. (Now think about that. When the insurance company gives one employer a great deal on their policy, isn't it likely that they make up the profit by giving someone else a not-so-good deal?)

My coverage is expensive because I have it through a small company. My coverage is probably even more expensive than the average small company because this small "risk pool" of employees includes a number of people who insurers charge more for coverage -- women of child-bearing age, people over 50, but not yet 65, as well as several cancer survivors.

Looking into the future, I can predict the probable impact of the Cadillac Tax on my coverage.

First, I'm not going to pay the Cadillac Tax. Through my plan, not one cent will be collected to offset the cost of covering the uninsured. Instead, the employer will change the plan to one that no longer falls under the tax.

Of course, a less-expensive plan will provide less coverage than the plan I have now. To charge lower premiums, my plan will have higher deductibles, higher co-payments, additional restrictions on covered expenses, and increased cost-sharing. They call it "sharing" but, of course, what it really means is that I will pay more and they will pay less (insurance companies' idea of sharing is a lot like the Republican idea of bipartisanship).

So one likely consequence of the Cadillac Tax on my life is that within two years I will have worse coverage than I have today.

Of course, that's only one possible future. The employer might also sit down with the accountants, calculate the fees and fines, and ultimately decide to simply end coverage through an employer-sponsored plan. Which, as I understand it, means I would join the small percentage of people eligible to participate in the Exchange.

In the Exchange, which at this point is largely mysterious, I would have more choices. But more, is not necessarily better. The invisible hand of the market, through the magic of competition is supposed to lower the prices of plans on the Exchange.

But then, since my existing coverage is so expensive because of the small size of the subscriber pool, I'm skeptical that having a choice of many small plans would be in any way less expensive than what I have now. There is also no guarantee that the plans offered on the exchange would include coverage as good as what I have now, though it's hardly luxurious. There will, however, be low-cost plans, offering high deductibles and low reimbursement rates, that though they may cost less in premiums, will not keep my family out of bankruptcy if one of us is sick or injured.

But, all in all, as a healthy person, with a healthy family, unless something changes, I think we'll do ok, though we will almost certainly be worse off than we are today.

I'm less certain that the other people in the company will be ok. The employees who are over 50 but not yet 65, can be charged more for coverage on the Exchange, and may only be able to afford coverage that doesn't adequately cover their needs.

The women of child-bearing age, might be charged more for their coverage (though the amount will be limited) and depending on the state, those choices might or might not include full reproductive care. If they choose a plan that does cover full reproductive care, there will be two separate deductions on their pay-stub ... which tells anyone who has access to their paychecks that they have chosen a plan that includes that coverage. So much for privacy in health care decisions.

The cancer survivors ... well, the ban on pre-existing conditions doesn't kick in for them right away. And I'm unclear on how much more they might be required to pay for their coverage. If someone is familiar with that part of the bill, I would like to know.

As I see it, under the exchange, I might do fine, after-all, I'm one of the people who brings the overall cost down for the small risk pool at this company. As I understand it, however, the other people in the risk pool might very well be worse off under the Exchange.

But then, this assumes that everyone in the company will continue to work for the company, that the company will continue to function as it does today. That is an assumption without basis, however. The company might go under, putting all of us into the growing ranks of "the uninsured."

Or, faced with increasing health care costs and shrinking profit margins, the company may decide it needs to selectively reduce its workforce.

Just for a minute, pretend you are the head of the company. You need to fire some of your employees, you may not want to, but if you don't the whole company will fold. Who do you let go?

The over 50, but not yet 65? They have good salaries, though everyone a the company has had a fairly flat salary for the past several years due to the ever-increasing health-insurance costs. Additionally, removing these people from your risk pool will lower the overall cost of your insurance.

How about the women of child-bearing age? Sure, you might pay them less than you would a man, but there's a chance they might get pregnant. And then there's maternity leave, staying home with sick kids, and the simple fact that the insurance company charges more for their coverage. Removing them from your risk pool, may lower the overall cost of your insurance.

How about the cancer survivors? Recently, their work has suffered because they were somewhat preoccupied with fighting cancer. But even if you want to keep them on, you know that removing them from your risk pool will dramatically lower the cost of your insurance.

Faced with these decisions, what would you do? If by selectively reducing your workforce to eliminate the people who raise the cost of covering everyone in the company you could avoid the Cadillac Tax, what would you do? Never mind that those are the people who can least afford to lose their coverage, or their jobs, what would you do to save your company?

In the end, I don't know what is going to happen.

But I do know that the Cadillac Tax is not something that only affects "other people." It will impact people I know. It will impact me. And I take that personally.
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yes, by all means take those nasty women of child bearing years out of the equation...
What you've described, and admitted to, is not a Cadillac plan... so where's the beef?
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Blue State Blues Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I have seen reductions in forces
and I am describing what I have seen. Over 50 were first to go, followed shortly by single moms, and women of reproductive age whether or not they currently had children. I do not defend the practice, but it is what I have seen.

I agree, what I have is not a Cadillac Plan, but I PAY for a Cadillac Plan. At the rate that this plan has increased for the past 3 years, within two years the plan will fall under the Cadillac Tax. The tax is based on the COST of the coverage, not the value of the coverage.
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. any actual real numbers you can post?
I keep seeing posts saying how the "cadillac" tax will kill the common middle class person..

I have yet to see any raw numbers...
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. For me this a great description of why
We didn't need to reinvent the wheel
with this convoluted monstrosity
we've come up with.

There are prime examples all around the world
of simpler, cleaner delivered national
health care.
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
6. There is such a double-edged sword and I think a lot of people don't see it
Edited on Fri Jan-08-10 02:21 PM by Cal Carpenter
Maybe I'm the crazy one, but this is how I see it.

We are essentially being forced to rely on our employers for health care coverage. If we, god forbid, manage to get expensive health insurance through our employers - either because it is top-notch, or, as in your case, because your insurance pool is small - the cost of our insurance is going to be treated like income and taxed.

There is no way out. And, as your situation exemplifies, it encourages the lowest common denominator of crappy health insurance.

I also think many people don't realize how expensive even mediocre insurance is, even for an individual let alone people with dependents.

Yes, wealthy people are more likely to have health insurance with costs like these. So increase taxes on those folks' INCOME, not their health insurance.

Maybe this seems like a drop in the bucket to some people, that it won't effect a lot of working class people, but this tax is being relied on to pay for much of this health insurance 'reform', so there is more to it than meets the eye, as far as I can tell.

And the worst part of all, imo, is that it's still about health insurance rather than health care.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to post this. Hopefully your illustration will help people see why some of us are up in arms about it.

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
7. Did you add in your and your employers dental and vision premiums? Or your flex plan?
You might be a lot nearer to a Cadillac plan now than you think.
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Blue State Blues Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. don't have vision, dental, or flex
If I did, I'd be in Cadillac territory right now. Never mind that I'm actually driving a Pinto.
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rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. A PINTO! No wonder your rates are so high...She's gonna blow..!!!
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rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. Well that's a great personal story and worry you have, but let's look closer, compare to Status Quo.
Edited on Fri Jan-08-10 02:37 PM by rgbecker
First off, what do you pay for insurance? $23,000? Family or individual? If you think premiums are going up with the passage of the bill, what about without passage? I think either way you are in for an increase.....Unless the "Exchange" does do its job of standardizing policies and coverages and actually allows consumers (or Employers) to actually figure out which policy makes the best sense for their needs. If you look at the present situation in Massachusetts you will see a program after which the present senate bill is modeled. You can check and see what you would have to pay for what policy easily by going to the "exchange" and shopping. Insurers must take you during the twice yearly sign up times and must cover Pregnant women as they have had to for 28 years in Massachusetts. I think you would find $23,000 to be on the very high end of premiums listed there. The worry that we could all be caught up in the "Cadillac" syndrome could be easily addressed with a indexing system that would lift that bar as inflation kicks in. As employers, required to provide insurance, look to getting under the Cadillac rate, shop around, insurance companies will be required to provide a solution in order to remain competitive.

https://www.mahealthconnector.org/portal/site/connector/

Here's the link to the Massachusetts Health Insurance "Exchange". Pretend you are lucky like me to live in a progressive state that even allows same-sex marriage, and see what insurance reform could look like nationwide.

I'd vote for single payer, medicare for all in a minute, but we aren't going to get it as long the senate is set up as it is with states like Wyoming, with 500,000 residents having the same say as California with 35 Million. And if the progressives on DU won't even support slightest change in insurance regulation because their rates might go up, when we know they are going to go up anyway, I don't think HCR is going anywhere except with what we have or stick with the GOP plan....Do Nothing.
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Blue State Blues Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Under the Status Quo
Premiums will continue to rise, coverage will continue to erode. In my case, the company may still fold or the company might still decide on a selective reduction in force as a way to stay afloat -- in my case, it's all hypothetical. I am not in any way in favor of the Status Quo.

However, if the bill passes in something close to its current form, premiums will continue to rise, coverage will continue to erode, and the Democrats will be blamed.

It's a perfect lose-lose.

I do support changes in insurance regulation. I am open to the possibility of Swiss or German-style health insurance reform with tight government regulation. However, I do not believe that the culture of the health insurance corporations we have in this country are capable of doing business if they were required to provide actual services at fair cost in the way that other nations require of private insurers. Also, I do believe that our government's culture of regulation is prepared to enact the strict regulation that would be required to be effective. Regulatory agencies are easier to buy than Congress members -- it doesn't even require something as honest as a bribe.

As I said, I'm not so worried about my family. As long as we stay healthy, we'll manage. I'm more concerned about the other people at the company. Through the Exchange, they can still be charged more for age, gender, pre-existing conditions. I'm also concerned about the possibility of the Exchange being by insurers used as a way to get around tough regulations by the states, allowing them to sell low-cost "junk policies".

As far as competition being a solution to rising costs, I simply cannot have faith in the invisible hand of the market -- in my experience, all it has ever done is slap me around.

My post is not an analysis of the entirety of the bill, it is simply my response to the "you should be for this tax because it only affects other people" ideas I have been reading.

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rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. They idea of a tax being OK because it only effects other people is flawed!
I'll hand you that....A Progressive would like to see the "burden" of the tax be the determining factor.

That said, I think you are mistaken that the rates would reflect gender and pre-existing conditions as those are points that the writers are really interested in addressing. Check the Massachusetts connector site and see if there are any of these differentiating qualities besides age. I don't think there are and I think the idea is to do away with them in the proposed bill also. That is the point of the Insurance regulation reforms.

Of course there are huge questions about where health insurance premiums are headed, but if you think of the bill as just a way to make sure people are covered and can get health care, and that they aren't rejected because they were born with a heart defect or something, or because they lost their job, would you promote rejecting this bill?
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Blue State Blues Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I'm not anti-tax, I think this tax provides perverse incentives
Yes, the incentive would be to lower the cost of a plan ... but the cost is almost certainly to be lowered by reducing benefits. It also provides the perverse incentive in hiring and firing that I described that would disadvantage people who are currently charged more for health coverage.

The last time I checked, and yes I know this seems to be changing, the bill would still allow insurers to charge more for age -- the item under dispute was how much more, twice as much, three times as much, five times as much. Insurers now commonly charge more for women or exclude coverage for pregnancy, I think that will be outlawed, but again I'm not sure. Those with pre-existing conditions cannot be denied coverage, but again, the last time I checked, they could still be charged more, and the ban on denial of coverage has a mis-match with the end of the high-risk pools and the creation of the Exchange ...

I would like some firm guarantees that the system evolving under this bill would be at least as good as the Massachusetts system, but I am deeply concerned about the quality of the coverage that will be offered under the exchange. I am also concerned that it will be used as a tool to get around the good regulation currently provided by states like Massachusetts.

I can't think of this bill as just a way to make sure people are covered and can get health care, because I intimately understand the difference between having health coverage and having health care.

This bill will put more insurance cards in more people's wallets. But even after spending all of the tax-payer dollars on subsidies to pay for those insurance cards, not one person will have received any health care. Not one doctor's visit, not one cancer treatment, not one prescription filled, not one day in a hospital.

I do not for a moment forget that 122 people have died today because they do not have health insurance. Or that today more families have been forced into bankruptcy from medical bills.

I will wholeheartedly support any bill that I believe will significantly address those two faces of this national crisis. But I have little confidence that this bill would save those 122 lives or prevent those bankruptcies. People who have coverage they can't afford to use, will still not receive treatment. People faced with soaring medical bills and insurance that reimburses 60% after deductibles will still go bankrupt, just not quite as quickly, and providers and insurance companies will get paid more before the protections of bankruptcy kick in.

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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-09-10 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. There is no indexing in the bill to avoid catching more people with this over a few years
And I don't expect there will be. The intent, regardless of what they say, is to extract the money from middle class workers or force them into crappier coverage. After all, it wouldn't do to ask the wealthy, at long last, to pay their share, would it?
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. A Mega Huge Major KICK & RECOMMEND

Thank you for taking the time and writing this incredible post!

:kick:
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
11. I make the analogy that
this Health Care Reform Bill is going to do the same thing to Working People as NAFTA did.

BOHICA.
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
12. Great post - people need to educate themselves as to just what awful effects this tax will have.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
13. I make the analogy that
this Health Care Reform Bill is going to do the same thing to Working People as NAFTA did.

BOHICA.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. +1
And the "intelligent" Democrats in the room think they know so much more than the Working People, yet keep scratching their heads and wondering why people would vote against their alleged "best interests."
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
17. It's hard to feel sorry for someone who gets 20,000 dollars for insurance premiums alone...
...seriously, I'm well off and don't see anything around that amount
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Divide and conquer on display
The mind boggles.

It's not about feeling sorry for the OP, can't you see that? This is just an illustration, an example, of SYSTEMIC problems and crappy legislative solutions.

Good lord.
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Blue State Blues Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Don't feel sorry. And if you want to tax my income, go ahead.
just don't penalize me because I get charged more for my health insurance than other people do.
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-08-10 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. "Gets," WTF? Do people think union bargaining sessions are "ask and ye shall receive"?
Educate yourself. Seriously.
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Blue State Blues Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-09-10 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. The more I think about it, the more your post confuses me
See after the 20K you quote, which isn't just for me, it's every family who is insured through this employer, no one has received any health care.

You know the expectation of Congress that could pay up to 12% -13% of income for premiums without assistance, the one one that caused an uproar here. For some of us, that would be an improvement -- we pay more than that now.

As far as the "gets" ... no one I know gets cash from an employer to spend on benefits as they see fit. What you get is a choice of coverage, sometimes it's one or two packages, sometimes it's the package or nothing. The employer typically kicks in a portion of the cost of the plan -- generally half to 3/4ths of the premium -- the other portion comes out of the employee's paycheck. Oh, and if the employee declines the package, the employer does not hand them the money that would have gone to the employer's share of the premium.

But by all means, don't feel sorry for me. I'm just going to lose benefits.

Feel sorry for the people who think that this tax will accomplish its stated objectives without creating massive backlash.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-09-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #17
26. Well we arent' well off and our premiums would have qualified. And our coverage wasn't great, either
People who have decent health care benefits from their employers are the new welfare queens. It's disgusting.
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-09-10 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
24. K & R
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