Afghanistan is not Vietnam

[NJmaverick]

This article from the Christian Science Monitor is quite compelling and offers up an interesting and different historical perspective. It's worth reading the entire article, but here are some highlights.

Jackson, Miss. – Contrary to recent popular comparisons, Afghanistan is not Vietnam.
But it is a lot like Albania.
About 70 years ago, Albania – a small, mountainous country in the Balkans, was still populated by numerous “fanatical” warrior tribesmen. During World War II, Germany occupied this land. Given the strategic importance of the Balkans, the Allies, led by the British, sent in covert operatives to try to organize an indigenous Albanian resistance.
These Allied operatives were unable to think like tribal warriors and that is why they failed. If President Obama learns from Britain’s mistakes and meets Afghan warriors on their terms, the United States can end the war and win the peace in Afghanistan, honorably.

SNIP

Obama was right to open the door to reconciliation midway through his West Point speech last month. If the US is to have any hope of success in Afghanistan, the strategy on the ground must be to broker peace between individuals, families, and tribes. And most important, make peace with the relatives of those the US has inadvertently killed, who are otherwise honor-bound to seek vengeance.
Echoes of tribal culture persist in the high mountains of North Albania, but today, the country is poised to join the European Union. Even so, if the US is to win in Afghanistan, we must think like an Albanian warrior of yesteryear. We must kill our enemies or be prepared to reconcile with them. There can be no middle ground.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100108/cm_csm/272676;_ylt=AskRUi3_iIqa4.H0YiSgriv9wxIF;_ylu=X3oDMTJjZTdvZGgyBGFzc2V0A2NzbS8yMDEwMDEwOC8yNzI2NzYEcG9zAzMEc2VjA3luX2FydGljbGVfc3VtbWFyeV9saXN0BHNsawNhZmdoYW5pc3Rhbmk-

[anonymous171]

1. "Our enemies" WTF? I have no enemies in Afghanistan. nt

[sandnsea]

2. I do n/t

[anonymous171]

3. Are you a soldier serving in Afghanistan right now? nt

[NJmaverick]

4. What difference does that make?

[anonymous171]

6. American soldiers serving in Afghanistan are the only people who have actual enemies there

Besides the rich business elite I mean.

[NJmaverick]

7. The members of Al-Qaeda operating there are mine and most American's enemy

and the Taliban are their allies and that makes them our enemies as well.

[anonymous171]

8. Why aren't you over there then? Only a coward hides from his enemies. nt

[NJmaverick]

11. Why are you not there? I think you could learn a lot from some first hand encounters

still I am too old and my knees are too shot for me to be there.

[anonymous171]

29. As I said before, I have no enemies there. My enemies are all here at home. nt

[sandnsea]

15. They don't want me there

I'm too old and out of shape. I'm not hiding either.

I also am not choosing to have enemies. There are people in the world who have chosen to have the citizens of this country as enemies. I don't like the way a lot of people in my town behave, they hurt people economically just as sure as the US does. But you don't see me putting a bomb in their mailbox.

[harkadog]

53. How about those people in the U.S. during World War II ?

Were they cowards too because they weren't fighting?

[anonymous171]

61. If they were extremely hawkish and able to go, then yes. nt

[harkadog]

63. So the entire country should have left?

Shut down the factories, let the farms go to rot, leave the cities to ruin, leave the disabled, children and elderly to fend for themselves. People in WW II were "extremely hawkish" -- far more than now.

[anonymous171]

64. Key phrase: "ABLE TO GO". nt

[harkadog]

69. Oh so now you backtrack and want to define "able"

to escape your logic blunder. All the people I referred to are "able".

[Bigmack]

9. All 100 of them....

We need 30,000 more troops there! Now!

Excuse me while I get a sledge hammer to adjust my watch.

[NJmaverick]

13. 100 Al-Qaeda can do a lot of damage. How many took part in the 9/11 attacks?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. How many of them were Afghans? Where did they originate? Where did they train?

When do we invade Hamburg? Riyadh? London?

[NJmaverick]

22. The answer you were looking for was less than 20

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. But..but..they're really skeery Skeery SuperBogeymen!!

Not to mention the Mighty Taliban Fleet about to launch an amphibious assault on Staten Island!

[Bluebear]

24. "We must KILL them!" Kill them all now!!!!11

[NJmaverick]

31. ignorance is king

:eyes:

[Bluebear]

34. And You Rule :)

[NJmaverick]

40. You seem to forget who confessed to being ignorant

I'll give you a hint, it wasn't me

[Raineyb]

70. Well one wouldn't expect you to admit to being ignorant would one?

As you're too fucking ignorant to know you don't know shit.

[sandnsea]

19. Whether we do or don't need more troops

can be debated. That there are enemies of this country in Afghanistan cannot.

[Warren Stupidity]

62. Why don't we invade Saudi Arabia then?

That is where the money and the leadership comes from. That is the cultural, political, and financial center of wahabbi jihadist idiocy. Oh, yeah, they own us. Explains a lot.

[sandnsea]

74. Same reason we don't invade L.A.

to kill gangs.

[IndianaGreen]

71. I don't see you enlisting and going off to war

or are you one of those chicken hawks, like Pat Buchanan and Dick Cheney, that love any war they don't have to fight.

[sandnsea]

73. I didn't say I support killing the enemies

I said I have them. There's a difference.

Although I do support killing these enemies and have considered going to Afghanistan and probably would if I had anything to offer the people of that country.

[IndianaGreen]

75. Once again, if you support this war, off to war you should go!

Let those that have already served multiple combat tours be relieved by our brave keyboard warriors that support this wasteful war.

[sandnsea]

76. I'm sorry. They don't want me.

I don't qualify. Sorry.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. Sure you do. Just like we had "enemies" in Vietnam, and Iraq, and Grenada.

If the gummint says they're your enemy it must be so.

[tabasco]

66. The fuck you don't. n/t

[johnaries]

68. O rly? There are some there who consider you THEIR enemy.

Simply because you're an American. Unless you join them, they will kill you in an instant for no other reason.

[Bluebear]

10. "We must kill our enemies" - good lord, see the blood dripping from the mouth of the commentator.

WHAT "tribal culture" enemies in Afghanistan?

[TomClash]

16. It is easy for blood to drip . . .

. . . when you're typing on a computer in Mississippi and the blood is someone else's blood.

[NJmaverick]

21. You really should READ the WHOLE article and not just the highlights

[TomClash]

39. I read the whole article

It reads like most polisci professors' glop, which I have grown tired of tolerating.

The article is uneven, like an 8-8 football season.

The comparison with Albanian ethnic groups is interesting, but the rest is banal.

[NJmaverick]

18. Shame you and the other bashers never bothered to read the whole article

but only the highlights. It's that lack of complete knowledge that drives your position. In this case had you bothered to read the full article you would see just how silly your statement sounds.

[Bluebear]

23. You're right. We've just come to know your posts as less than progressive so we don't delve further.

Our bad. But "kill kill kill" jumped from the page. There's no other solution, eh?

[NJmaverick]

25. Thank you for confessing the ignorance that drives your position

[Bluebear]

28. You're welcome. it all revolves around you.

:silly:

[TomClash]

12. To what end?

What is a "successful outcome" in Afghanistan? How do the American people benefit from a "successful outcome" in Afghanistan?

[NJmaverick]

17. A successful outcome is one where a stable central government

prevents the return to power of the Taliban. This in turn prevents the country from becoming the main base of operations for Al Qaeda.

[wuushew]

27. The cost of maintaining an adequate central government exceeds the tax ability of the Afghan economy

therefore we are committing ourselves to make up the shortfall in perpetuity. It is not reasonable to expect great development out of a harsh landlocked region of central Asia.

[NJmaverick]

44. Our foreign donations are already a large burden

this will be some what insignificant.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. "Picking up the White Man's Burden"? That really worked well for the Brits and Soviets.

Gotta subdue them ignorant tribes people, or kill them, and bring the survivors to Jesus and/or McDonalds.

[NJmaverick]

45. You need to read the article

then you will see just how silly your comments sound on this thread

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

51. I did read the article. A lame attempt to lump Brit failures to American failures.

Meanwhile, due to our efforts to "civilize" Afghanistan as so many others have attempted, even more Taliban and Al-queda recruits appear to get you hysterical over.

[NJmaverick]

54. Read it again, it was article by an anthropologist who is explaining

some key cultural parallels of Afghanistan and the WW 2 conflicts in Albania.


Then again, it doesn't fit your preconceived notions of things, so you will dismiss this out of hand.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. Ah, yes. The parallels saying we should use the sacred visitor ploy to win the war.

Dependent on "honor" and friendship.

The article reeks of Kiplingesque notions of the superiority of Western Civilization and our love of "progress" versus the backward tribes people.

Did you miss the part about "killing" them? No doubt for their own good.

[NJmaverick]

59. You have some seriously messed up ways of looking at things

there was nothing suggesting any sort of superiority of anyone. You are just inventing points to dismiss stuff that doesn't neatly fit in your preconceived notions of the world

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

65. And, you have some serious misconceptions about the value of life.

[anonymous171]

36. That will never happen unless we install some kind of Saddam-style strongman

[NJmaverick]

47. Possibly, or we may be able to weaken the worse elements of the Taliban

who are not that popular to begin with, to the point that they can't overthrow the government. More likely a combination of both.

[TomClash]

42. Be prepared to be there forever

. . . and to commit several more divisions to accomplish that task. Please note that the "stable central government" in Albania was led by the dictator, Enver Hoxha, a Stalinist long after the Soviets abandoned Stalinism.

[NJmaverick]

49. The article does point out that that outcome was the result of poor understanding

and that lessons learned from that situation can change the outcome in Afghanistan.

[Dr.Phool]

55. Is that why we're bribing the Taliban not to attack us?

[IndianaGreen]

72. Psst: we already lost the war in Afghanistan

The only remaining issue is how many GIs Obama will get killed before he admits that the war was lost two years ago.

[leftstreet]

26. What terrifies me is al-Qaeda's huge naval force

I'm afraid they'll park off our coast and listen to our rock and roll, while they conduct missile drills

:scared:

[neverforget]

32. Awesome!

[Bluebear]

33. I thought I saw one off the coast of Maine yesterday.

I wanted to shoot at it, then I recognized the Gorton's Fisherman. Phew.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. Not to mention forcing beachgoers to wear burqas!

[Bluebear]

37. I don't want my children pledging to the Afghani flag in Arabian language!!!1

[NJmaverick]

41. Glad to see you are bringing good factual information to the discussion

[laughingliberal]

38. Obviously. I counted at least 5 squares on my atlas between them. Duh! nt

[NJmaverick]

43. Another thoughtful and fact filled commentary

[laughingliberal]

48. Hold your applause, please. You're embarrasing me.

:blush:

[robdogbucky]

46. Ah, Bertie, at it again I see....

Can you please call in and tell your handlers to send in the A Team, as your shit is not flying around here very well. You are good entertainment though.

You did not bother to respond to my substantive response to your joke posted here yesterday, but I will repost it all here below so others can keep in mind your MO.

As to VN vs Af-Pak, they are both illegal wars on countries that never attacked us. Lies propped up the business of the MIC. There was an organized movement starting on campuses that eventually led to a society-wide change of political will during VN. Even though the polling numbers (did I say that?), well at least according to Chomsky, say that there is even greater societal opposition to this latest illegal adventure of the MIC, give it time. The resources will run low, the truth will not so easily be fogged over and we will demand, demand by overwhelming public majority, a complete pullout. From all ill-begotten foreign adventures.

http://www.democraticunderground.com//discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7422188&mesg_id=7423066


My response over there follows, as I felt it was worth a reminder as these posts tend to sink fast after the entertainment value has dried up:


Dear Bertie:

Are you clowns trying to sell this incoherency as some sort of valid analysis?

I just now finally read your screed, against my better judgment, and it is worse than I had assumed. Yes, I had not read it when I submitted linked information that I just knew would be of interest, probably more to others than you.
Just as well, as I never expected you to actually respond to any of my points raised by those links. No, of course not, you could never do that, and you did not disappoint. Langley or Foggy Bottom or some undisclosed location must be really dredging the dregs, the bottom of the barrel of your think tank –generated-sounding arguments and alleged logic systems to use you to unveil this newest dreck.

Let’s look at your writing shall we? You attempt to recap in those first couple of paragraphs and then reach some conclusion that you feel that yes, Bush screwed up. Genius, how long did it take for you to offer that up, to observe it, to finally conclude he made a pisser. What, no one left to believe any lies about “fighting them there before…” or “WMDs”? Your additional statement re: “war should always be the measure of last resort,” seems disingenuous and a major backpedal by someone so eager to aggressively meet our supposed enemies and until now so pleased with the institution of pre-emptive warfare.

You really should look in a mirror or play rewind when you write “history is full of lessons that show war is unpredictable...” etc. and attempt to lay blame for this, any way you look at it a fuck up, again, at the feet of the cited Bush. No shit Sherlock to the former and it doesn’t surprise me about the latter. You then try to sound reasonable again and assert that negotiations could never be guaranteed and then try to spin further along the lines of “maybe Bush should have tried, etc.” C’mon, I don’t believe for a second that when you voted for Bush that you had any intentions of supporting his negotiating, something which was never attempted. Your “logic,” is from the Jean Kilpatrick/John Bolton/Charles Negropante school of “diplomacy.” In other words you mean to say “this wisdom came from our best think tanks so don’t question it.” Blaming Bush at this point is really pathetic, you being an eternal war sympathizer. Is this just the think tank’s version of the one step back, two steps forward meme?

You then return to the main stem, the Big Lie, the element that is central to your eternal war strategy. AQ is less a threat to America than your mindset and Wall St. 9/11 was the biggest psy ops operation ever attempted. At least since the last assassinations. You gave yourself away with the Pearl Harbor reference. How ‘bout Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Put that in perspective and you mind find new reasons for everything you are promoting. Unsuccessfully in this quarter by the way. Then you go back to the Bush thingy. Wow, I feel really privileged to be seeing/hearing the latest from the dark side. The rest is just gibberish and the usual wishful thinking from the MIC rationalizers at the Pentagon. A new disinformation campaign rolled out right here at DU and catapulted for all to witness.

Really, you took the entire bakery, not just the cake when you wrote “Wholesale use of brides…” Your best work yet.
I can’t wait to see the sequel.

rdb

[NJmaverick]

50. Your cut and paste responses of other's opinions, don't impress

[robdogbucky]

60. Um, Bertie

that was not a cut and paste of another's opinion. That was me, just today, giving a substantive response to your turd left here yesterday re; your thoughts on Afghanistan, after you bleated that you somehow did not find cut and paste an appropriate response.

Hence I posted what is cut here on this post, just to remind others of what they are dealing with when engaging with your noise.

You are sounding like a broken record now.

You: "Did you read what I linked? Cut and paste of another's post doesn't impress, etc......."

First you criticize cut and paste. Then I respond substantively and you run and hide. Then you cut and paste yourself and proceed to repeat "I don't think much of cut and paste," etc.......

I respond substantively, you run and hide and start another like thread. I cite your hypocrisy and you repeat what you said over there to which I responded. I am repeating all this so that it does not escape your attention. That seems to happen a lot with you.

Bertie, you're off your meds.



More centavos

rdb

[LooseWilly]

52. "but today, the country is poised to join the European Union"- brilliant: offer EU membership!!

Afghanistan will be happy to take that bribe. Instead of bombing the populace, offer them each an average EU yearly wage... and peace will ensue.

Done and done...

[StarfarerBill]

56. It's still a civil war and an insurgency in which we've inserted ourselves without cause,

and against which we are waging a losing counterinsurgency.

We've not learned from history once again; thus, we're repeating it.

[mdmc]

58. I am sure we will mission accomplished soon enough

within the next 100 years fo'sho..

[roamer65]

67. Not it's not Vietnam. It's far worse than Vietnam.

This conflict is definitely destabilizing Pakistan, a nuclear armed state. There was no such danger during the Vietnam War, nor during the Albanian comparison the author cites.

We're playing around with the start of World War III right now.