quit spinning the insurance bailout as hcr

[backwoodsbob]

it's not.

I've kept my mouth shut on this and watched the spin but enough is enough.

mandating that people buy for profit insurance isn't *extending insurance to 30,000,000 people*

cutting profit at 15% isn't stopping the insurance companies when most businesses operate at less than that

using the IRS as the collection agent for insurance companies isn't progressive..it's fucking slavery

claiming we can *fix it later* is bullshit plain and simple.Don't fix it later..make it right now.

claiming those who oppose this bill aren't *real* Dem's is bullshit..and it pisses me off.Don't take your message of the day that people are *with us or against us* with me..fuck that.

where is the *we will put it on c-span* ? weren't we promised transparency?

where is the end of dadt?

Don't give me this bullshit that we must follow like a blind herd no matter what we get...I will no longer be a sheep.The *lesser of two evils* bs no longer floats..I want a third way...a true progressive way.

I want..no..I DEMAND ..

universal health care...not mandated for profit insurance
end of DADT

TRUTH for once out of DC no matter what letter is next to the name.


i'm sick and tired of being sick and tired..lets give our reps hell until they represent US for a change.CALL your rep and tell him/her you WON'T accept this bullshit excuse for a bill.Tell him/her you WILL make sure they are GONE if they don't get us a true hcr law.

It's time to kick their asses and make them work for us

[grytpype]

1. Wow, that was some great crying.

[backwoodsbob]

3. wow that was some rebuttel

[laughingliberal]

7. Yes, typically fact based and well argued

not

[liberation]

20. Wow... so advocating basic human decency is now considered "crying" for some of you?

Kind of says it all about the "hope and change" brigade.

[ThomCat]

24. Wow, that was a useless response.

[Dinger]

34. Triple Wow Here

Sheesh

[inna]

41. what an idiotic, completely worthless comment.

:thumbsdown:

On edit: KR for the OP

[stray cat]

2. Its as bad as Medicare and Medicaid - which is also a form of insurance

we should not bail them out either. The problem is your demands don't fit the doctor's demands who treat you - they want paid for their work!

:rofl:

[backwoodsbob]

5. who said we won't pay doctors?

the spin is deep on this one

[tavalon]

39. No, the spin is fast, not deep

[laughingliberal]

6. It does not have a hint of anything resembling Medicare or Medicaid in it

Medicare operates at 4% overhead. We could give providers a hell of a raise and still be far below the 30% overhead the for profits are operating at.

Oh, you believe that loophole riddled 85% MLR is going to keep industry profits in check and force them to pay claims? Really? :rofl:

[sabrina 1]

9. Repeating the rightwing mantra that the working class

wants everything for free, is interesting for obvious reasons, but is there anything, factual I mean, that the OP has stated that you can refute intelligently?

[TransitJohn]

14. Reading DU about this travesty of health insurance 'reform'

reminds me of the last election here in Wyoming when Cynthia Lummis (R, naturally) campaigned on "it's time that the poor should start paying their fair share of taxes."

[sabrina 1]

18. Yes, the 'left' is hard to distinguish from the right anymore

when it comes to the under and uninsured. I remember when I used to fight with rightwingers over that very talking point and never once remember it being uttered by a Democrat, until now.

The saddest thing of all was to hear President Obama call them a 'burden on the rest of us'.

[liberation]

21. Just because the PomPom squad fancies to label themselves as "progressives" doesn't make them so

in the same sense that Mr. Obama by any standard is a moderate conservative, I am of the opinion that a lot of his supporters are more center-right that they care to recognize. They simply apply the liberal label because their conservative brand has been damaged beyond repair.

A lot of Obama's acolytes fancy label center-left politicians like Kucinich as "extreme left" that should give all of us a clue about where their actual ideological leanings lie, and if they insist in labeling themselves "progressive" then it is time to ask them to recalibrate their political compass (or at least not act in such a disingenuous manner).

In other words, let's not assume that Democrats are the real left, some of them are... but that is a minority if we look at elected Dems in both the senate and congress, never mind the presidency and its cabinet (how many actual leftist can anyone name in Obama's cabinet? Not a single damn one). The DLC et al worked hard to shift the Dems to the right, pretending that the Dems are the left is ridiculous at this point. The left in this country is bordering extinction... and it is sad to see a large number of people in DU licking their chops at that prospect.

[sabrina 1]

28. I agree with most osf what you said ~

It was the very idea of a 'big tent' that the DLC/Reagan Republicans distorted and took advantage of. My understanding of 'Big Tent' was that the Dem Party was the party where the voiceless, the poor, minorities, the working class who were not represented, would be welcome and their issues addressed. I never understood it to mean 'Republican are welcome in the Democratic Party'. But that's what has happened.

The only thing I would argue with you about, is that we can judge the absence of a 'real left' by looking at the political landscape. The ruling class spends a fortune suppressing progressive ideas, they control the media. But despite that, when polled on issues such as healthcare, eg, the majority of the people support a universal healthcare system. Iow, no one right now is representing the people. Imagine how easy it would have been for Democrats, if they really wanted a decent healthcare system, to sell it as an extension of Medicare.

It's tragically obvious now why they did not ~ their corporate funders were their first concern and such a system would have put them out of business.

But what can be done about it? The 'left' does exist but it's not organized or well funded. And worse than that, progressives have been funding DCLers because they thought they had nowhere to go. A good start would be to stop funding the DNC and other groups who end up pushing out progressive candidates in favor of DLCers and to stop believing that 'we can't win with a progressive candidate'. We can if they are supported and financed. We haven't tried that yet as far as I can see.

[laughingliberal]

31. The 'lucky ducks' who don't have to pay taxes. As much an attitude here, now, as with Republicans

We've collected whole new groups of 'welfare queens' now and many DU members right there with the Republicans in demonizing them. It's disgusting.

[Sebastian Doyle]

10. Medicare and Medicaid are not for profit corporations ran by FUCKING CRIMINALS.

What part of that don't you goddamn DLC corporate ball washers NOT understand? :grr:

[ThomCat]

25. If you lump Medicare and Medicaid together

because you don't know the difference then you really should go learn something before you criticize. :eyes:

medicaid is pretty much useless. Medicare would have been a real solution.

[nightrain]

50. Medicaid and Medicare are not a private corporation's product. Might want to

check that out for accuracy's sake.

[ShortnFiery]

4. Thanks for posting this. :-) eom

[Edweird]

8. You are correct. It is RW bullshit. The same plan that helped cost McCain the election

is now being trumpeted by the left as a great idea. It is completely the opposite of Obama's campaign position.

http://www.youtube.com/user/davidsirota#p/u/0/MRNx-F8vRmM

[liberation]

22. what "left" is that you are referring to?

The last remnants of the left in this country are either the greens, socialist, or a few elected officials in both houses. A few, if any of them, are trumpeting any of this crap legislation as "a good idea."

[Edweird]

27. Sorry. It's not the real left, but the DLC'ers.

[ixion]

11. kicked and recommended

We're in complete agreement. Thanks for lending your voice to the struggle against this atrocious piece of legislation.

:applause: :woohoo: :applause:

[chimpymustgo]

12. K&R. If the Pukes had proposed this "health insurance reform", we'd be storming the gates of the WH

This is INSANE, people. KILL the BILL. Get something decent for PEOPLE, not INSURANCE CORPORATIONS.

[liberal_at_heart]

15. You are so right

[flyarm]

26. + 10,000!!!!!!!!!

[sabrina 1]

30. I think it's a done deal. Probably was even before the inauguration.

Most of the progressives in Congress have been marginalized. While Obama never chastized the tea-baggers (didn't he say they were Americans exercising their rights at some point?) he and his COS had no qualms chastizing Conyers, eg or Dean. And not once have I heard them attack the Republican obstructionists.

A nearly 3000 page Bill wasn't written overnight and with the millions spent on making sure the Private Ins. Industry were the winners, I would say the chances of defeating any part of it, are probably zero. I don't want to get caught up in the 'hope/no hope' cycle again. It's better to face reality.

So, the only way now, is to make Single Payer, with no compromises, the issue that progressives run on in the future. We have seen what compromise does so it has had some benefit so long as we learn from it.

[chimpymustgo]

35. You are probably right. This bill is AWFUL, and the whole Kabuki dance has been DISGRACEFUL.

Progressives have been shit upon, unions, women - the FUCKING BASE OF THE PARTY. We keep being told to wait, wait - we'll fix this in the next step, then the next step, then, well, AFTER this shit sandwich passes. THEY WERE LYING TO US THEN, AND THEY ARE LYING TO US NOW.

Kill the bill.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

53. Truth!

[liberal_at_heart]

13. K&R

[sabrina 1]

16. The convoluted arguments in support of this travesty

that is being called HC Reform, in themselves demonstrate how indefensible it is.

The saddest thing of all is how the American people can so easily be brought to defend something that is so clearly not in their interests.

No government of any other developed country would dare to foist this assault on the people, on their Constitutional rights, for fear of at least their political careers and maybe even their personal safety.

It's easy to see why this government believes that it is perfectly safe to do so here.

For decades the American people suffered under a for-profit Health Care that essentially cost many of them their lives. Why did they tolerate it? To call it abuse of a people by their government is putting it mildly considering the death toll.

So, in a way, it is no surprise to see the victims of this abuse support their abusers in the hope that they might now get some little benefits, such as, 'the death toll won't be so high'???

It's definitely not a surprise to see the abusers have the audacity to force them, under penalty of law now, pay for what is essentially a faith-based 'reform'. Bullies will do what they are allowed to get away with.

'Trust Us ~ your employers will share their savings on your coverage with you'! So they say. No wonder the head of the Union had to stop laughing before he gave his opinion on that claim.

The ONLY reason this is getting any kind of defense at all, is because the American people have had the spirit to fight for their rights, and Health Care IS a right, beaten out of them. It's just sad to see them defending it though.

Your OP puts it simply and correctly. Will this be the straw that breaks the camel's back? It might be. I have not seen anything, even all the abuses of the Bush administration, generate so much anger, as soon as people begin to understand what is contained in this bill. I think what it has done, is to gain more and stronger support for a Single Payer system.

[noise]

29. Obama's intention from the beginning was to gain support for single payer

What a f**king brilliant chess move on Obama's part. The cynics simply couldn't see the forest for the trees and thus were deluded into believing Obama sold out to the insurance industry. What fools!

:sarcasm:

[sabrina 1]

32. Yes, I saw those arguments ~

Glad you used the snark tag because some people have said that with a straight face. Some kind of infinitesimal dimensional chess move which we were not sophisticated enough to understand ~

[inna]

43. +1,000. great post. nt

[Individualist]

17. K&R

[Union Yes]

19. Single Payer Universal Health Care for all and NOTHING less! knr nt

[jtrockville]

37. Everybody In. Nobody Out.

Single payer is the only solution.

Besides, health insurance is a SCAM. Forcing people to purchase an overpriced SCAM, and using taxpayer dollars as a subsidy, doesn't solve anything (unless you're an insurance company executive seeking enormous compensation).

[havocmom]

23. Laid it all out there pretty clearly there, backwoodsbob

The most painfully true part of OP is how DLC types try to intimidate dissent by the name calling tactics so often used by the GOP. THAT tactic speaks volumes about who/what is really calling the shots and setting the agenda.

[juno jones]

33. K&R! n/t

[leeroysphitz]

49. Your sig line is awesome.

[juno jones]

54. Thanks.

Sometimes I can really identify with the character. :hi:

I've probably seen most of that movie hundreds of times. My son used to watch it the way some kids watch 'Little Mermaid'. (Yeah, he's kind of a different kid. :) ) There's a lot of amazing stuff tucked into that film.

[TexasObserver]

36. Insurance company bailout is right.

But, hey! At least it's not like TARP, where they get truck loads of free money with no accounting for their use of the money. Of course, the health insurance industry is getting a permanent boost.

Congress works for special interests, it's just worse under the GOP than under our party.

[earth mom]

38. Awesome post!

:thumbsup:

[FLAprogressive]

40. K&R

[Marr]

42. "We can fix it later", the plaintive cry of the pom-pom shaking chump.

If they can't do it correctly *now*, why should anyone believe they could fix it later? It's like some sleazy used car salesman saying, "I know it's got four flat tires and it's leaking oil, but I promise to fix it later if you buy it right now".

[tnlefty]

47. Which is what was said about NAFTA years ago and it's been

fixed. Oh, wait it hasn't even been addressed, my bad.

[scarletwoman]

44. Rec'd. What you said. (nt)

[Vidar]

45. K&R.

[Odin2005]

46. This bill is FASCIST ECONOMICS on full display

Forcing people to buy the product of a corporation.

[anonymous171]

48. Exactly. Fascism was the original "third way" after all. nt

[nightrain]

51. knr. Good post!

[BzaDem]

52. I'm sure they are quaking in their boots at your DEMANDing.

Any poster who claims that all the bill does is mandate insurance without mentioning the affordability credits for 30 million people is a dishonest hack who should not be taken seriously.