Morning Joe and Al Sharpton have the education problem solved. Fire the teachers.

[madfloridian]

That will fix it all. If a kid is not learning, there must in their mind be only one answer. It is the teacher's fault. They also manage to do some teacher union bashing in the Morning Joe segment. They have it all clear in their minds now. It sounds so simple the way they say it.

It would be great if firing teachers and bashing their unions took care of all education problems.

Joe Scarborough and the Rev. Al Sharpton shook up the education world

"Joe Scarborough and the Rev. Al Sharpton shook up the education world on Friday during a segment of "Morning Joe", where they had a very direct exchange and agreed on key points in education reform. Topics included unions, merit pay and whether teachers should be fired (the new "f" word in education?)."

Here is part of the transcript:

JS: And you also are talking about it in a way that a lot of civil rights leaders haven't talked in some time about teachers unions about education reform. You're ready to turn the tables over in the temple and say, hey schools are not about unions, schools are not about jobs, they're about kids.

AS: The priority of the educational structure in this country ought to be whether the kids are learning.

Secretary Duncan and Newt Gingrich and I have toured the country. President Obama met with us last May and said you all ought to tour the country because both of us --though Newt Gingrich and I don't agree on much -- we agreed on that. We've done that. In fact Secretary Duncan and I are going to Atlanta.

JS: You have a lot of people in unions angry at you.

Sharpton is right about one thing. Schools should be about learning and kids. He fails to mention that he and Gingrich agree on the turning over of public schools to private companies, and telling the nation that will solve all the problems of education.

AS: Well, but the point is some of the union leaders are saying we're right, some are saying we're wrong. My thing is, if black and Latino kids are four grades behind in reading and writing, I don't care about somebody that has not effectively taught being protected, I would care about the kid being protected.

JS: So fire the teachers that don't work, that don't perform, that let down kids, and hire teachers that can teach kids.

AS: I think you have to hold the teachers accountable, I think you have got to deal with the teachers who can teach and give them incentives.

Notice there is no mention at all of the responsibility of the parents. And did I just detect a little bias there? He calmly theorizes what should happen if "black and Latino kids are four grades behind in reading and writing."

There is no mention of the real truth of what he and Gingrich and Arne and Obama are advocating. He does not make clear that Newt Gingrich is getting his dream come true now under a Democratic administration.

Newt's dream that is being fulfilled is to apply the "free market system" to education.

We should apply the free enterprise system to our education system by introducing competition among schools, administrators, and teachers. Our educators should be paid based on their performance and held accountable based on clear standards with real consequences. These ideas are designed to stimulate thinking beyond the timid “let’s do more of the same” that has greeted every call for rethinking math and science education.
Source: Gingrich Communications website, www.newt.org Dec 1, 2006

Again not a word about other circumstances that affect the learning of students. Why not insist parents have responsibility, that children put forth effort?

Gingrich is getting just what he wants, and Sharpton and he are traveling together to push the free market agenda.


His other goals are coming to fruition now also.

Support charters; insist on change for failing schools

We should encourage the spread of public charter schools--one of the happiest new developments on the education scene--so parents, educators, & students working together can enjoy the maximum freedom to explore options and innovations until every child has a genuine opportunity to learn. As a corollary of this, we must identify the worst schools. We should insist on immediate change for bad schools. To start with, there should be no tenure and no binding contracts in the worst 20% of schools.
Source: Lessons Learned the Hard Way, by Newt Gingrich, p.208 Jul 2, 1998

Private scholarships for students at hopeless schools

If there were families left without an acceptable public school, scholarships should be available for them to find a private one. I am a graduate of a public school, as are my wife and two daughters. All of us remain committed to the idea of public education. However, if the available public school is one that gives parents legitimate worry for their children’s future, there ought to be alternative to having to stand helplessly watching an incompetent bureaucracy destroy their children’s lives.
Source: Lessons Learned the Hard Way, by Newt Gingrich, p.209 Jul 2, 1998

Not a word about the dangers of the free market system in education. Not a word about how it will become more about profit and less about the students.

[TexasObserver]

1. The teachers are better. It's the parents who are worse.

[virgogal]

5. I agree. If a teacher gets no support from the parents the child

will struggle.

[TexasObserver]

9. My three all attended public schools.

In the 1980s, 1990s, and early 2000s.

The teachers were great, with a couple of exceptions, and those were more about biases or lack of personal skills than competence in their chosen field. One was an aging art teacher who didn't really accept the societal changes which had transpired since her youth. One was just crabby at times, for reasons unknown. The overwhelming experience was one good teacher after another, at all levels.

But in all aspects of parent participation, there were no-shows. Some could not be helped, I'm sure - the single parent who is working, for example. The sad truth is that many parents simply don't put in the time and effort rearing their kids, reading to them when they're younger, engaging them in language, monitoring their school work, attending their performances in school as well as extra curricular.

Good parents have good students, most of the time.

[sui generis]

68. that was my first thought. We've just given up raising our kids

to the schools. On the flip side the school has insisted we have fewer rights over what our children do and even what WE do if our children are in public school.

I went to public schools overseas in Germany - military base high school and a German "gymnasium" (like a Magnate school).

An absolute multi-cultural multi-ethnic seething ocean of students, wearing all manner of clothing, jewelry, and t-shirts, traditional garb, and NONE of the utter bullshit that I see here in the U.S.

Yes there were occasional hallway tussles, and there were the classic bullies, cliques, introverts and extroverts, but the classrooms were orderly and engaged, and it was fun. It was also by any standard today, extremely "liberal".

The primary difference - well they did have paddling (!), not advocating it, but if I fucked up at school, my military parents would be the ones who got in trouble, even could themselves face disciplinary..

Draconian? Nah. Just a different standard. Of course, realize that in the military on base, your parents have all of a five minute commute, every day, and most weekends off. You walk to school, so no extra "drop off" and "pick up" time, with few exceptions, and the entire population churns with people coming and going between different bases and back and forth to other orders elsewhere or in the states.

At that time, the military had just enforced minimum health standards, so lard ass service dads and moms had to be able to run at minimum two ten minute miles (wooooo!), among other standards, and the community managed itself as an interlinked community of dependent and officer housing and transient billets. In many ways, even with all the people coming and going, it was "closer" than any stateside urban community CAN be.

[greennina]

2. I didn't have a single teacher that cared or tried...

so getting rid of the current teachers, while it would punish a few good teachers, would get ride of the 99% that are horrible. I support this idea. Of course you'll see rich whites fighting against it.

[Danger Mouse]

3. A lot of DUer's, including yours truly, are teachers. Please think before you post.

:(

[The Gunslinger]

6. well since you had a bad experience,

go ahead and speak for everybody and blame every teacher....Good idea.

[Forkboy]

7. That's some hardcore nonsense.

[Mithreal]

17. Which is more likely, not a single teacher cared or tried, or

you are being dishonest?

Your perceptions matter if they are genuine, but you have posted nothing that helps anyone appreciate or understand your point of view. Maybe you could explain?

[Kermitt Gribble]

18. My bet is that you were a horrible student.

Anyone that is part of the working class should be fighting against this. Unions are the only voice the working class has.

Congratulations on supporting something against your own best interest.

[lolly]

22. My kids have had several great teachers

But they've had a lot of mediocre ones too. And some really, really bad ones.

Getting rid of the good and okay teachers would be a big mistake.

Wish they could get rid of the bad ones.

[Mithreal]

25. When principals do their job, it is possible

My only experiences have been with mediocre or worse principals so I am open to being wrong.

What I do know is that bad principals can get rid of good teachers even with unions.

[tonysam]

53. ESPECIALLY good and/or older teachers

and with the union's cooperation.

I know: I was one such case.

[CBR]

29. My husband is a black male and a teacher and he will fight against this.

So not just "rich whites."

[laughingliberal]

31. I think it is rich whites fighting for it

The ones who want to co-opt the public education system for profit. And those who can afford to send their kids to private schools but want tax payer money to do so. Anecdotal evidence (one person's experience) rarely shows the whole picture.

[donquijoterocket]

35. question is

The question then becomes did you care or try? Most often effort returns effort.The conversation between Sharpton and Joe of the dead intern was one between two idiots, neither of whom apparently know much about the subject they're addressing. Add Gingrich and you've got a third even larger idiot.
I'm betting none of them would make a semester as teachers in public schools, especially Joe of the dead intern.

[Daphne08]

37. As one who was a longtime teacher and a parent as well,

I sincerely doubt the veracity of your remark concerning teachers who neither cared nor tried.

You made the statement that "...getting rid of the current teachers...would get ride of the 99% that are horrible."

That is a ridiculous remark illustrating a complete lack of understanding, comprehension and knowledge regarding the field of education.

Please.

[Dappleganger]

38. Wow

Talk about broad-brush statements. If it weren't for caring teachers I'd have never survived my home life.

[Plucketeer]

44. Not a single one???

I got news for you. The problem wasn't with the teachers.

[Tailormyst]

49. Sorry to hear that. My experience is different. I never had a bad teacher.

I had some I didn't like, some at the time I thought were "mean", but none of them were bad teachers. I also come from a family of teachers and all of them lived and breathed for those kids. Today I am a parent and I see the teachers bending over backwards to help my boys make it, despite their disadvantages.

[PatrynXX]

64. I've had bad teachers, but most of them were in the Lutheran private system.

in the High School and College system.

My old school from 5-8th grade, best years of my life. Great teachers, although one was a teacher, principle and still wasn't paid enough so he mowed certain companies lawns. (which was the local Kwik Trip gas station then) He's moved from the town, but 20 years on I miss that place. And Facebook helped me connect with a few of them.

[Fire1]

52. The mere fact that you can read and write with only one

spelling error is proof that you had teachers who tried AND cared.

[donco6]

59. 99% of all teachers are horrible?

Wow.

[MadHound]

60. Oh I love idiots who judge all teacher by their own limited personal experience

Let me guess, you probably weren't a joy in the classroom either:eyes:

[JuliantheApostate]

69. I'm guessing you didn't care or try, either

Who are you going to replace all of the teachers you fire with. Is there some great surplus of good teachers out there that are ready to come in and fill the void? or maybe we can just stuff the surplus students into the already over crowded classrooms of the teachers you decide to let stay on. Its already hard enough to get people to go into teaching, bringing the hammer down on a bunch of people who already work a thankless job may not be the best way to attract prospective teachers.

"Of course you'll see rich whites fighting against it."

Its not gonna be rich whites that suffer because of it, their kids are already going to private schools.

[tonysam]

70. Actually the reason for the abuse of teachers currently in the system

is due to the fact there are SO many teachers out of work. They are out of work because they were laid off, fired, or they are the most "desirable" teachers as they are freshly minted teachers right out of college to be used, abused, and spit out of the system, never to teach again thanks to disclosure statements on school district and state licensing applications and blackballing by deranged, unethical, criminal, or negligent principals. As long as there is a giant glut of teachers in virtually all specialties, the movement towards "temps" in teaching will continue in order to save money. Only nepotisms, i.e., relatives of teachers and administrators, will have permanent jobs. Everybody else will be disposable.

Public education is NO longer about children.

[Danger Mouse]

4. Once again, half-wits who know nothing about education telling us how to solve the problems...

of our education system.
:eyes:

[GreenPartyVoter]

8. *sigh* It's always the teacher's fault. I wish the people who think that would take a few months

and try teaching so they can find out what it's like to have: kids and parents who don't care (and are oftentimes belligerent about it,) endless arbitrary hoops like NCLB to jump through, crappy out of date textbooks and other materials to work with, and planning, grading, and classroom management to deal with. It's not for everyone.

They talk about incentives for bringing in and keeping good teachers. Money helps. So does improving the above issues. Why assume that moving kids from public school A to charter school B is the solution? Why not put better teachers in the public schools then? Based on the OP, it sounds like it's really about privatization and the free market and not the kids and how well they are being taught. I don't want to send my kids to Pepsi Cola High, thank you very much.

[notesdev]

10. The bottom line

seems to be that everyone is interested in their own agenda and nobody really gives a shit about the kids who have to spend years in the Kafkaesque hellholes that come out of such people compromising amongst each other.

[madfloridian]

11. Actually most teachers have the best for the students as their agenda.

It is only propaganda that it is otherwise.

The public schools are under attack by corporations who want to control them.

[The Wielding Truth]

58. You are so right . It's another place for them to ravage and exploit.

Teaching is a profession which demands complete dedication. You have to love children and learning to keep giving your all. It is not only a job, but a life style.

[Mithreal]

20. I don't share your bottom line. Nearly all teachers and parents want the best

for the children, but they have to rely on fellow citizens to pay the cost of the investment. Since both the R's and D's are both set on not taxing those most able to pay, escalating the for profit model of schools, and equalizing American worker pay with the third world, we are screwed.

I don't know what you mean by nobody gives a shit. What do you mean?

[lolly]

23. Exactly

A more accurate description of this trend would be the "Walmartization" of schools.

These people would love to put a whole swath of educated, solidly middle class people out of work and replace them with near-poverty-level employees who would function primarily as disciplinarians and test-givers.

It's not about kids or teachers--it's about continuing the assault on the middle class.

[Dinger]

12. K & R. Thanks For Posting. Bookmarked Too

Disgusting sunzabitches.

[jotsy]

13. The problems with education have little or nothing to do with the people who take the time to teach.

I have nothing but respect for those who choose the profession. It's an awesome responsibility that doesn't pay well enough. Thank you all.

In my neck of the woods, it is the district that chooses what textbooks will be used and what curriculum will be covered in all classes. I don't see how a single process would accommodate the needs of so many learners if the intention is to truly render students a sense of viability, or a foundation to build from. How can teachers teach if they're not allowed to be involved in decisions that have such a huge impact on how the job is done.

As a process, the quality of public education is being bared to the bone so we can be made to want to buy something better.

I say give the teachers the money from the budgets directly and cut the top end off and out. Watch it work better and be more cost effective.

Disclaimer: I speak as an over-aged idealist who possesses nowhere near the knowledge of the original poster on the details of educational matters.

[MadMaddie]

14. I blame parents for much of what we are seeing

I blame tax cuts for having class rooms that are too big for teachers to be effective.

What go to corporate schools that only care about how much they make and not how they make it? I guess Joe and Al would have no regulation around them like the failing charter schools.

[Mithreal]

19. The economic pressures are stressing and even dismantling families

If our society really wanted students to succeed we would protect the jobs of American families and have a superior social contract as described in FDR's proposed Second Bill of Rights.

Strong families and communities raise strong children.

[Tailormyst]

48. I agree and I am a parent

I am not nearly as involved as I want to be, or used to be, before I had to go to work.

[MadMaddie]

67. But it sounds like you are engaged there are many out there

that don't even make an effort and they blame the schools for everything.

[Kermitt Gribble]

15. President Obama, Arne Duncan, Al Sharpton, Newt Gingrich, and Joe Scarborough

all conspire to bust the teachers unions. I'm at a loss for words on how the Dems have aligned with repubs against the unions. Where's the outrage from the cheerleaders? They raised holy hell over Hamsher/Norquist? Why are they not raising hell over Obama/Duncan/Gingrich?

[flor-de-jasmim]

16. Guess Newt is in favor of fiing the guys on Wall St. for incompetence...?

I mean, if we're going to use a single parameter for judging, and all...

[LibDemAlways]

21. My 16-year-old high school junior gets mail all the time

from a private SAT tutoring company. For $600.00 the company promises to raise her SAT score by 200 points. By my calculation that's $3.00 a point. Her school provided the company with her name and address, and I have to wonder what's in it for the school. This partnership of a public school with a for-profit company is disturbing. If parents want to avail themselves of such a service, fine, let them seek one out. The school shouldn't be involved.

As for Gingrich and Sharpton, I don't see either one of them spending any time actually attempting to teach a class. They are a couple of know-nothing blowhards who shouldn't even be given a platform for such crap.

[Orsino]

24. Hire more teachers.

Stop stripping the funding and expertise from the education system, or stop complaining about kids not learning.

If you only fund for day-care, that's the level of education you get.

[AngryAmish]

26. Can we all agree that there are some bad teachers out there?

Substance abusers, just plain dim or given up on their job?

[Johonny]

27. there's bad evrything out there

and yes the unions hurt themselves by protecting bad teachers. But really what percent? The vast majority of the teachers I had or know are good at their job. It's really not there fault at all. In no way is over analyzing teacher performance going to solve a problem that has little to do with the teachers performance.

[AngryAmish]

28. Are there good metrics for determining how good a teacher is?

If so, what are they? Student improvement?

(on edit - I could use some teaching)

[madfloridian]

32. Teachers are constantly assessed by many means. You quote propaganda.

When you pretend teachers are not accountable.

It's a shame you choose to do that.

[AngryAmish]

40. Then what are the metrics?

[Mithreal]

42. States and districts are different but there are general guidelines

If you honestly would like to know, why not google teacher supervision and start reading.

[callous taoboy]

73. Thank you-

Here is what I, a 3rd grade teacher, have been proven to have accomplished so far in reading this year according to recent testing of individual students: I have brought 3 children up from a first grade reading level to on grade level. At least 4 have gone up from a second grade level to a very solid third grade level. The other students came in reading at grade level and are now reading on 4th and 5th grade levels.

[Mithreal]

39. It is the "bad" individual that defines the core of conservatism.

Omg, you nailed it, no one ever thought to establish methods to determine the qualities that make a good teacher before conservatives learned to dominate.

Weird thing is students from economically strong communities do better. Maybe we should be focusing on teaching fetuses to be born to the right parents, you know, the ones with great jobs who live in upscale neighborhoods.

Only rightwingers are STUPID enough to think the quality teaching is immeasurable without for profit and other private schools, crushing teacher unions, merit pay, and turning teachers into slaves. It has to be bad teachers, it couldn't possibly be anything situational, systemic or societal. It must be the "bad" individual. That is the heart of what it means to be Republican and their solutions.

[madfloridian]

61. Well said.

:applause:

[callous taoboy]

71. Save your breath.

I am a public school teacher and I have a small ignore list of individuals on this board that DO NOT GET IT. The person you responded to is one such individual, I'm assuming.

[Mithreal]

33. Who doesn't? That question should always be accompanied by a disclaimer

There are "bad" individuals in every profession and job.

The question isn't whether they exist. Believe it or not, teachers have had bad teachers too. The rightwing argument focuses on these so-called bad teachers and even more hated unions. My chemistry teacher was very unlikable and many students despised him, but he pushed students and taught me more than nearly any other teacher I had.

It's not like teachers are without supervision. Without support almost certainly, but not without supervision, even sometimes incompetent at best.

Anyway, I would argue it is less relevant than you think. There are many significantly worse problems. And I would add to the argument that when students get out of school, they are going to face a tough world with many bosses who will break laws and mistreat them.

I am afraid "bad" teacher does not mean the same thing to every person and for the things we can all agree make a bad teacher, it is not hard to get a teacher fired.

[laughingliberal]

34. I'm sure there are. Probably about the same percentage as Ronnie's welfare queens were of the total

population who was receiving public assistance. There is no end to the groups or working people who will not be demonized before this war on the working and middle classes is over. This battle is a twofer-take down a profession that is already overworked and underpaid and move to a for profit educational system that is, eventually, going to cost us more money.

[LibDemAlways]

43. Yes, there are some bad teachers. Just as in any profession there are

good competent hard-working people and people who should perhaps be doing something else. However, it remains the responsibility of the parents to see that their children are completing their work and not sloughing off. Education should ideally be a partnership between school and home and parents need to be actively involved not only to oversee their children's work but to be their best advocate.

[Tailormyst]

47. There are bad everything if you look hard enough

The bad are FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR outnumbered by the good teachers, who give more of themselves for their jobs then I dare say most of us give for ours.

[tonysam]

55. The bad teachers are far, far, far, far far outnumbered

by the bad principals, many of whom lack the maturity and the experience to run a school, but who have absolute control over teachers and their careers. Don't think they don't know how much power they have; they have the entire school district legal apparatus--financed by taxpayers, so it is an unlimited amount of money--to help them through lawsuits and appeals.

Unless, of course, they molest students. That's about the only time they are fired. If they are negligent, retaliatory, approach teachers to break the law, commit perjury in termination hearings, somehow force superiors to forge documents and commit other criminal acts to protect their jobs, harass teachers who are too old or are whistle-blowers or teachers they have personality conflicts with them, they have it made in this twisted system.

[tonysam]

54. Substance abusers NEVER get away with it.

Even those who abuse substances outside of the job, including alcoholics. They are almost always disciplined, and many lose their licenses.

The problem isn't so-called "shitty" teachers; the problem is with administrators, who are NEVER held accountable for their actions. They have ironclad job security.

[laughingliberal]

30. Yep. Private, for profit education is going to work out as well as private, for profit health care

How in the hell can this be happening with Democrats in charge? Don't answer. I've already figured out New Democrats=Old Republicans.

[fishwax]

36. ugh

Market education is a recipe for disaster.

[Mithreal]

41. Or a recipe for great profits? Disaster capitalism rocks, or so I am told.

[nicky187]

75. Concur.

This is as good an idea as the for profit military (Blackwater/Xe). Go for it (not).

[Plucketeer]

45. NO MENTION

Of the Ozzie & Harriet, Father knows best, Donna Reed sorta homes that this diversity of students surely comes from every morning - with full stomachs, no psychological baggage and the secure notion that both of their parents are gonna be SO thrilled with a report card full of As!

[Tailormyst]

46. The problem is not the teachers

Teachers don't teach because they think it's a good F'n way to get rich. They do it because they care, because they love kids. They don't get paid nearly enough for what they do.

[Fire1]

50. Amen to that! But teachers are the easiest and most likely

scapegoats. Always have and always will be.

[DainBramaged]

51. Joe Scarborough blows goats

[sulphurdunn]

56. How about scandal acoountability?

Joe = Dead Intern
Al = Twana Brawley
Newt = Serial Adultery

[abelenkpe]

57. I agree privatizing education is not

in the best interest of students. I do worry about your statement:

"Notice there is no mention at all of the responsibility of the parents"

Parents do need to participate but it's difficult when we live in a economic situation that for many requires both parents to work in order to make ends meet. I fret everyday over this. I'd love to be able to spend more time with my five and four year old teaching them and supporting what they learn in school, but I don't get home until seven. I keep them up until 9:30 in order to sneak in a little time reading and playing along with supper and bath routines. How can I support them more when there is so little time in the day?

[madfloridian]

62. Sounds like you are doing what you can. Quality counts so much.

We raised a bunch of kids with both of us working, and I think it is quality not quantity.

Sounds like you are being a good parent in spite of little time. Some parents are home all the time and do a lousy job of caring and loving.

Hang in there.

[PatrynXX]

63. Get rid of the No Child Left Behind. Thats the main problem.

It leaves tons of kids behind. My aunt was a teacher and retired because she couldn't stand these rules that weren't teaching kids.. Most teachers that do retire, is because No Child Left Behind is a fucking joke.

In every other country where the students are better, the teachers are well paid. But in this country we have Morning Joe (typical moron )and for whatever reason Sharpton. Disappointed man disappointed. thinking they should be fired because they don't have enough money to teach. Time to send those two back to school.

[RainDog]

65. POVERTY is the greatest hindance to mind, body and soul of children

that's what this nation needs to address.

without a vision of a better tomorrow, the people perish.

[Nikki Stone1]

66. How much is Al Sharpton getting from private education companies?

Because he is not a politician per se, we don't have access to that publicly. But I wonder if someone might be able to get that info. It's like here in LA: Antonio Villaragosa has gotten campaign contributions from Green Dot, and, voila, they get 250 schools.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jakes Progress]

74. Well. Our ed czar will be glad to get right on this. nt