Binary Poll: Are You Pro Union Or Anti-Union?

[Dinger]

Poll question: Binary Poll: Are You Pro Union Or Anti-Union?

Simple, right?

[glen123098]

1. Nothing is this simple.

[Dinger]

5. Yes It Is

black and white, nothing gray here - just gives more excuses for DINOs.

[ThomWV]

7. You pay dues or you do not - Plus or Minus, On or Off, Black or White - that simple.

[Iggo]

36. I'm not in a union, so I don't pay dues.

Does that make me anti-union?

[Odin2005]

28. Wrong. You are either pro-labor or pro-Fascism.

[Bucky]

58. actually fascists had pretty strong pro-labor policies (if you were the right ethnicity)

The National Socialists favored unemployment insurance, increasing minimum wages, worker training, aggressive government make-work programs, and regulation of large employers to ensure worker safety. Of course those "make-work" programs included building up a military strong enough to invade their weaker neighbors. Mussolini fixed his unemployment problems overnight by throwing all the jobless into the army and invading Ethiopia. Plus there was that whole genocide thing. They're not admirable, obviously, but they weren't trying to screw the working class, either.

When you call Republicans fascists, you're not just being intellectually sloppy, there's actually times when you're insulting the fascists.

[Truth2Tell]

83. American fascism is different from German fascism

in a number of ways - doesn't mean it's not fascism. Hitler didn't invent it, nor does his version necessarily define it. Fascism has become more sophisticated in the last 60 years - and somewhat harder to identify as a result.

[DisgustedInMN]

88. I'm with you.

And I know without hesitation where I stand. The Party I am a member of, USED to stand with me. Now? Not so much, I guess.

"New Democrats" = Neocons pretending to be Populists.

[DailyGrind51]

52. Unions make sense in the private sector, but in the State of Illinois,

they are holding our state budget hostage because of defined benefit (rather than defined contribution) pensions. The unemployed, under-employed, and fixed income citizens are expected to pay higher taxes and fees because our state employees' unions, in comparatively secure jobs, refuse to pay more into their benefit packages. They are behaving like Wall Street investment bankers!

[Bluenorthwest]

69. Interesting perspective

But of course, you, your State, entered into a contract that was negotiated, to which you agreed and under which you received many services over long years. Now you wish to rearrange that contract, that signed, sealed contract.
It sounds to me as if you, your State, entered into a contract you no longer wish to honor, and that is the behavior of the bankers. You took your end from the Union workers, now you do not want to deliver what you promised.

[DailyGrind51]

150. Occasionally, circumstances warrant renegotiating a contract.

I never entered the contract, nor did I agree with its terms. Contracts were entered into by a corrupt Republican governor (George Ryan) and an equally corrupt Democratic-controlled state legislature (Mike Madigan, et. al.) campaigning for the support of public service unions. I voted for neither official and no more promised these workers a life-time of secure employment with "sweetheart" benefit packages than you endorsed the invasion of Iraq, just because George W. Bush happened to become President.

[Mithreal]

159. Contracts are always renegotiable when it comes to screwing

workers and the middle class. Otherwise they are sacrosanct.

[Truth2Tell]

87. You're placing the blame in the wrong place,

and falling for the RW trap. The unemployed, under-employed, and fixed income citizens of Illinois are bearing more of a burden because the tax structure of the state is wrong! Adequately tax the wealthy and IL would be able to both support it's neediest AND provide state employees with a fair living.

[DailyGrind51]

151. Now, you, on the other hand, pose an argument with which I might concur!

We do have a very regressive tax system in Illinois. However, I reject the "But, Mom, you promised!" argument, which is the same one used by companies all the time to screw mortgagees, credit card holders, and people who sign insurance contracts.

[Mithreal]

94. What Bluenorthwest and Truth2Tell said, excellent responses

[DailyGrind51]

152. I wouldn't go THAT far!

[ieoeja]

131. It might have something to do with Illinois having the lowest state income tax in the nation.

I will never understand why Quinn fails to mention this simple fact while pushing to change our state income tax from a low flat tax to an average progressive one. Of the 41 states that have an income tax - those lacking perfect weather for tourism, not sitting on an ocean of oil, or funded by the federal gov't due to insufficient population - Illinois has the #1, dropdead lowest income tax.

And I don't recall our state having budgetary problems before Blagojevich decided to spend, spend, spend while refusing any and all efforts to bring in the dollars. The bad WORLDWIDE economy has made an additional mess of things as well, but it was a mess when the economy was still decent and Blagojevich was wrecking the state.

When Blagojevich scheduled a dozen meetings over the course of months to discuss the budget with legislators, then failed to show up for all but one in which he walked in, stated his demands and then left without hearing them out, they should have impeached the sonofabitch for refusing to do his fucking job. When they finally gave in to 100% of his demands only to have him veto the budget THAT HE WROTE because he changed his mind, they should have impeached the sonofabitch for, well, being a sonofabitch.

[PacerLJ35]

132. Really?

My mom and brother live in Illinois, and they pay more state income tax than I paid as a Louisiana resident (I'm now a Texas resident and don't pay state income taxes). Additionally, Illinois has pretty high property taxes as well (as does Texas).

[ieoeja]

137. Illinois is flat tax.

The comparison I saw was between the highest state income tax in each state. Louisiana may have a lower tax for loewr incomes, but its highest tax would be higher than Illinois'.

Actually, I thought Louisiana was one of the nine with *no* income tax. But I must be mistaken in that. The only thing I was particulaly interested in at the time was where Illinois ranked because of the proposed income tax hike. I was shocked to find we had the absolute lowest high.

Please inform your mom and brother of this fact. I tell everyone I know since for some odd reason Quinn won't. I swear Democratic politicians are the stupidest politicians in the world.


Yes, we do have high property and sales taxes. In part to make up for the low income tax, I imagine.

[PacerLJ35]

143. Well, we're all pretty much middle class...

I think I make more than both of them, but it's a moot point since I'm a Texas resident. Keep in mind I haven't been a Louisiana resident for 10 years, so maybe they did away with their income tax since then...but as of 2000, they had an income tax.

[GliderGuider]

63. I agree.

There are good unions and bad unions. There is the "worker protection" aspect of unions and there is the "worker control" aspect. Nothing in life is binary. "With us or agin' us" is a movie slogan.

[Mithreal]

75. No one is requesting rightwing talking points

Yeah, nothing is binary, like you can be a little pregnant. Put your cliche away.

You mean there are positives and negatives, oh really, fascinating.

edit spelling

[GliderGuider]

81. No you can't be a little bit pregnant

But there can be both good and bad things about being pregnant. I can be pro-pregnancy in some situations, and anti-pregnancy in others.

As I said http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7449659&mesg_id=7453801">below:

From Organized Labor versus "The Revolt Against Work":

Serious commentators on the labor upheavals of the Depression years seem to agree that disturbances of all kinds, including the wave of sit-down strikes of 1936 and 1937, were caused by the 'speed-up' above all. Dissatisfaction among production workers with their new CIO unions set in early, however, mainly because the unions made no efforts to challenge management's right to establish whatever kind of work methods and working conditions they saw fit. The 1945 Trends in Collective Bargaining study noted that "by around 1940" the labor leader had joined the business leader as an object of "widespread cynicism" to the American employee. Later in the 1940s C. Wright Mills, in his The New Men of Power: Amenca's Labor Leaders, described the union's role thusly: "the integration of union with plant means that the union takes over much of the company's personnel work, becoming the discipline agent of the rank-and-flle."

In the mid-1950s, Daniel Bell realized that unionization had not given workers control over their job lives. Struck by the huge, Spontaneous walk-out at River Rouge in July. 1949, over the speed of the Ford assembly line, he noted that "sometimes the constraints of work explode with geyser suddenness." And as Bell's Work and Its Discontents (1956) bore witness that "the revolt against work is widespread and takes many forms,"so had Walker and Guest's Harvard study, The Man on the Assembly Line (1953), testified to the resentment and resistance of the man on the line. Similarly, and from a writer with much working class experience himself, was Harvey Swados' "The Myth of the Happy Worker," published in The Nation, August, 1957, Workers and the unions continued to be at odds over conditions of work during this period. In auto, for example, the 1955 contract between the United Auto Workers and General Motors did nothing to check the 'speed-up' or facilitate the settlement of local shop grievances. Immediately after Walter Reuther made public the terms of the contract he'd just signed, over 70% of GM workers went on strike. An even larger percentage 'wildcatted' after the signing of the 1958 agreement because the union had again refused to do anything about the work itself. For the same reason, the auto workers walked off their jobs again in 1961, closing every GM and a large number of Ford plants.

And that was written by a Marxist union organizer (John Zerzan). Sorry it doesn't fit your agenda.

[Mithreal]

85. And democracies have been failing their citizens too

my point is that failures of democracies or unions do not negate their positive aspects.

My agenda is pro average American people, got a problem with that?

[GliderGuider]

89. No problem with that, sir. Average people are what I believe in too.

But I also won't say that I'm "pro-democracy" - especially if it's asked in the Manichean way this thread was presented.

[Mithreal]

90. All right, I can appreciate that

[Mithreal]

74. Unions are democracy in the workplace. You are either for or against Democracy.

That simple, it is.

[anonymous171]

2. Another intellectually dishonest strawmanish false dichotomy.

It is possible to want to tax union health plans and still be pro-union. :sarcasm:

[QC]

22. Venom nd vitriol!!!1 Venom and vitriool!!1!! Intellectually dishonest!1!1!!

[Mithreal]

77. It's possible to beat your spouse but still be pro marriage.

:sarcasm:

[DemoTex]

3. Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) AFL-CIO

[arthritisR_US]

10. a good mate of mine is in that Union here in Canada (Jazz) :-) n/t

[ddeclue]

4. 1

[Starry Messenger]

6. Pro-Union.

Pretty simple.

"Which Side Are You On?"

[Stinky The Clown]

8. Pro Union here

The Teamsters made it easier for Dad to to support Mom, my brother, and me. I was a member when I was eligible to be so.

[ProfessorGAC]

65. My Dad Was A Teamster, Too!

He drove a semi-truck and delivered milk to the supermarkets in the south suburbs of Chicago.
GAC

[Demeter]

9. I'm Union, and I Vote

[hayu_lol]

13. Just examine the salary differences between 'right to work states'...

and pro-union states. Most of the Red states show that their workers are just delighted to be working for very low wages and poor to disgraceful benefits.

That's why they hate unions.

[Dinger]

38. Touché My Friend

:hi:

[laughingliberal]

48. Yep. Have always lived in right to work states and it sucks for workers.

Even people who aren't in unions benefit to some degree from the presence of unions in their area.

[Enthusiast]

59. And the GOP and their

corporate masters want to extend the right to work to every state. Just imagine, then all the states can be red.

[proud2BlibKansan]

149. Right to work for less

[Dinger]

11. Unrecs On A Union Poll On A Democratic Message Board

Whooda thunk it??

[Stinky The Clown]

16. DU's "Us and Them" mentality

They read this somehow as anti-Obama and they retaliate with their childish unrecs.

Hint: Ignore it. It is hard to do so at first, but it gets easier.

And don't suffer fools gladly.

[Ignis]

33. This is where the anonymity of the Unrec function fails DU.

Just my $0.02. :shrug:

[GliderGuider]

82. But the anonymity of the "Rec" is just fine?

Everybody loves to be able to compile a good enemies list...

[Ignis]

117. Is it "just fine?" Did I say that? Where?

I've written several posts on this topic, and not once have I said that anon Unrecs are bad while anon Recs are good.

But if you enjoy snark and assumptions over a quick search, you've come to the right place! :hi:

[GliderGuider]

125. Sorry, the tone of the thread made me a little grumpy.

No, you didn't say that. The whole question of recs and unrecs is a touchy one. I personally prefer a system that just has recs. The tone of the place changes when unrecs are permitted. As maybe my post showed.

[Ignis]

127. We agree. And who doesn't get grumpy around here?

So let's start over: :hi:

I think a simple binary system (Rec or Nil) works well for an anonymous system. But I do think that anon unrecs are more damaging than anon recs...because I don't see a stampede of Freepers rushing over to DU to Rec up positive threads. :D

[GliderGuider]

146. OK, we're on common ground now.

I agree completely. Thanks. :thumbsup:

[Iggo]

61. +1

[NecklyTyler]

12. Pro Union

I cannot fathom how to be both a Democrat and against Unions

[DURHAM D]

21. Amen. nt

[Union Yes]

14. I see Rahm and Geitner voted anti-union. knr. I voted YES. Solidarity all! nt

[Dinger]

37. LOL, You Are Exactly Right

Again:)

[Dinger]

40. duncan't and LIEberman too,

which makes 4.

[myrna minx]

15. Pro! n/t

[Subdivisions]

17. Union member here. Pro. n/t

[tonysam]

18. I am pro with the realization that at least in public education

there are serious problems with the unions either being too ineffective for teachers or being too cozy with school districts.

[Bluenorthwest]

70. Are you a member of one of those unions?

And upon what factual foundation do you build your case? Declarations without reason are for the faith based crowd.

[tonysam]

153. I was, WEA, NEA affiliate, and it didn't do shit for me in my termination case

I know what I am talking about.

[KG]

19. damn right i'm pro-union.

[Political_Junkie]

20. Pro Union

No question. This should be a given on this site.

[flyarm]

23. In solidarity! 33 yr APFA retired. eom

[tridim]

24. Pro Union and jealous because I'm not in one.

[Fire1]

25. Union member. n/t

[flpab]

26. Pro-Union

my family is pro union, my husband belongs to a union and I belong to a union.

[Odin2005]

27. I SUPPORT LABOR!!!

[PacerLJ35]

29. It depends...

In general I support fair labor practices. Unions that seek a balance with management are effective. Unions that don't operate that way are ineffective.

[Raineyb]

30. Damn skippy I'm pro union!

At my former employer we had better benefits despite not being a union shop BECAUSE of unions. (And if a union had managed its way in I'd have joined it in a heartbeat.

[TexasObserver]

31. perhaps union bashers will note the vote here

[Swede]

32. Without unions everyone would be making $5 per hour for 6 days a week.

It really is that simple.

[Truth2Tell]

99. No they wouldn't.

It wouldn't be that good.

[Edweird]

34. Proud Pro Union Lineman.

[DainBramaged]

35. The anti-Union, Reagan economics apologists and Capitalist free trade backers

won't vote in this poll. They are chickenshit. We KNOW they are among us.

[TxVietVet]

39. I'm an active Union member for over 30 years

My father was a Union Carpenter and I'm an IBEW journeyman electrician. At least with the union, you have a guaranteed wage and benefits package backed by a contract.

[IndianaGreen]

41. Member of one union, associate member of another one

[Dinger]

42. Shit, I Should Have Did This As A Poll Where People Had To Reply

and thus identify themselves. I voted pro-union, just for the record.

[Union Label]

43. Going by my name need you ask?

:evilgrin:

[Dinger]

44. Well If You Say So

:evilgrin:

[Canuckistanian]

45. Proud former member of three unions here

The UBCJA, the SMWIA, and the Paperworkers and Communications Workers Union here in Canada.

[Sebastian Doyle]

46. I see we have 4 Republicans voting here, so far

If you oppose unions, you are not a Democrat. No exceptions.

[Dinger]

47. Make That 5 Sebastian

Does max baucus count? Looks like he dropped in.

[Sebastian Doyle]

49. Now it's 6

COUNT: 6! 6 Union hating Freepers posting as Democrats! Do you believe this, Kermit?

KERMIT: Yeah, actually I do. But then, I'm used to pigs.

[Dinger]

73. 9 freepers Voted In My Bipartisan Poll

Cool

[PacerLJ35]

126. No need to strong-arm people

I'm not specifically pro-union, nor am I anti-union...I'll support them when they deserve support and withdraw that support if I feel they overstepped. It's my right to do so, as is my right to affiliate myself with any particular political viewpoint.

To insist I must believe a certain way to be part of a particular political movement is...fascist. Sorry but I think for myself, I don't blindly support something or somebody.

[jdadd]

50. Former member of three.......

IUE,SMWIA,USWA, I am Retired now. Never crossed a picket line, Never will.....

[old mark]

51. Pro. Former AFSCME Steward, member of various unions since I joined

the American Federation of Musicians at age 15.

mark

[PVnRT]

53. Former UFCW and Teamster, so, yeah, pro-union

[invictus]

54. Pro-Union

[mac56]

55. Pro Union

Former Teamster.

Wish I was in a union now!

[Bucky]

56. Is this a trick question?

Shit, I am union

[madokie]

57. Pro union

with out unions we'd be working for food only. The ruling class, corporations, don't like us little people other than when we show up for work.

[GliderGuider]

60. Maybe.

John Zerzan has an interesting take on unions. He looked back at the origin of trade unions in the early part of the Industrial Revolution, and determined that they came into being as an efficient means of controlling a dissatisfied labour force. As such, they were originally championed by the factory owners, who felt that the workforce would respond better to discipline by their peers than by the owners themselves. As such, they became a proxy for the owners.

From Organized Labor versus "The Revolt Against Work":

Serious commentators on the labor upheavals of the Depression years seem to agree that disturbances of all kinds, including the wave of sit-down strikes of 1936 and 1937, were caused by the 'speed-up' above all. Dissatisfaction among production workers with their new CIO unions set in early, however, mainly because the unions made no efforts to challenge management's right to establish whatever kind of work methods and working conditions they saw fit. The 1945 Trends in Collective Bargaining study noted that "by around 1940" the labor leader had joined the business leader as an object of "widespread cynicism" to the American employee. Later in the 1940s C. Wright Mills, in his The New Men of Power: Amenca's Labor Leaders, described the union's role thusly: "the integration of union with plant means that the union takes over much of the company's personnel work, becoming the discipline agent of the rank-and-flle."

In the mid-1950s, Daniel Bell realized that unionization had not given workers control over their job lives. Struck by the huge, Spontaneous walk-out at River Rouge in July. 1949, over the speed of the Ford assembly line, he noted that "sometimes the constraints of work explode with geyser suddenness." And as Bell's Work and Its Discontents (1956) bore witness that "the revolt against work is widespread and takes many forms,"so had Walker and Guest's Harvard study, The Man on the Assembly Line (1953), testified to the resentment and resistance of the man on the line. Similarly, and from a writer with much working class experience himself, was Harvey Swados' "The Myth of the Happy Worker," published in The Nation, August, 1957, Workers and the unions continued to be at odds over conditions of work during this period. In auto, for example, the 1955 contract between the United Auto Workers and General Motors did nothing to check the 'speed-up' or facilitate the settlement of local shop grievances. Immediately after Walter Reuther made public the terms of the contract he'd just signed, over 70% of GM workers went on strike. An even larger percentage 'wildcatted' after the signing of the 1958 agreement because the union had again refused to do anything about the work itself. For the same reason, the auto workers walked off their jobs again in 1961, closing every GM and a large number of Ford plants.

This dissent doesn't mean I'm anti-union. I could hardly be, as I come from three generations of Canadian socialists (CCF/NDP). I'm also a member of PSAC (the Public Service Alliance of Canada). But the story of unions is a lot more complex than simply the white knight protecting the noble worker from the rapacious boss.

[GreenMetalFlake]

62. pro

[Umbral]

64. Unequivocally and unapologetically...

Pro, of course. I'm not a fucking freeper.

[ProfessorGAC]

66. Not In A Union, But Pro-Union

Yeah, there are times when unions lose their way and let leadership take the rank & file down the wrong path. But, those are the exceptions, not the rule. In general, unions have done great work in raising the economic tide.
GAC

[earth mom]

67. Whoever voted "No" doesn't belong on DU.

:grr:

[Common Sense Party]

68. Pro-Union. I think the Confederacy was a horrible idea.

[hyphenate]

71. IMO, depends on the union

I've been a part of a couple of unions, and one was as ineffectual as possible. Taking about $30 our of my check a month, and when I needed them, it was a half-assed attempt to help.

[justanaverageguy]

72. I am anti- one particular union

I was a partner (not the majority partner) in a business that was signatory to a labor union. I hated every minute of it. It had NOTHING to do with how much money I had to pay the guys or to the union. It had everything to do with working with a group of people who were the biggest assholes in the world, who had no interest in the success of my company or any real interest in their own guys and their safety. (Side note: recently the local union leader(s) were busted for embezzling thousands of dollars from the local)

I have since sold my share of that company have reopened a new company in the same industry. NON-UNION. Business is great, even in this down economy. I will close the doors of this company before I do business with that organization again.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

76. I'm pro-union.

And pro-tax.

[Unvanguard]

78. Pro, very pro, but that does not mean that I support every individual action by every union. n/t

[Blasphemer]

79. I think issue around here is how strongly pro-union

I think there are those who are strongly pro-union, while others are only somewhat pro-union and still others are perhaps 50-50.

[ismnotwasm]

80. Pro union.

Period.

Open shop.

You want to hear something sad? Many of the nurses I work with think the union dues are 'too much' not realizing what it is the union has done for them and continues to do. They seem to think that union dues paying nurses like myself take up the entire burden and are as effective as though they themselves were involved.

I got a comment the other day something to the effect that "I think you're the only dialysis nurse we have on our unit who is in the union, so you can fight for a pay differential" (Acute dialysis is not only very hard work, it take special skill. I work on a transplant unit where a certain percentage of nurses are trained) I thought, ok, now this is just sad. But fight I will.

[madfloridian]

84. Many here are pro-union, just not pro-teachers'-union.

There seems to be a disconnect when teachers are mentioned.

Seems that way to me.

[Romulox]

86. Anecdotal (like this thread), but I see a whole lotta Hondas parked in teacher's spots...

I'd say the indifference is a two way street. Not just an "anti-teacher" problem, but an overall lack of solidarity. :shrug:

[madfloridian]

91. I drive a Toyota. What a specious argument.

[Mithreal]

92. Mad, a lot of Michiganders talk like that. Heard it all the time growing up.

Autoworkers, blue collar. Teachers, white collar? There is already some in built division between the two, white vs. blue collar.

[madfloridian]

95. I think you may be right.

about a rivalry. There is contempt here at DU for teachers' unions, but not for other unions.

[Mithreal]

98. Purchasing union made products and services is union support in action.

It's not just for union members anymore, but for anyone who wants a strong middle class.

[madfloridian]

101. SO.....if a teacher buys a car then they don't deserve support.

Doggone it, hubby and I are both union, always bought "american made" until we two bad experiences with them.

We bought a Toyota, and we have had no problem.

SO...it is all the fault of teachers that the auto industry went down.

Silly me I thought it was NAFTA that started it.

Forget the effing teachers, let them privatize it all.

Then Detroit can blame us...all of us who drive anything else.

Just forget it all.

[Mithreal]

103. No, it's not that. It's just a blue collar perspective.

The US auto industry sold out the workers long before everyone started buying imports.

But we do need to talk about coming together now.

[madfloridian]

105. No time left for that. Not while teachers' are being bashed here.

Sick of it.

I will NOT be blamed for the ills of Detroit. Look toward Clinton and NAFTA and put the blame where it belongs

[Mithreal]

109. Every President since Reagan, but definitely Clinton

[spoony]

157. Where it belongs? You're placing it on autoworkers.

So apparently you think that's where it belongs. Bloody cafeteria union supporter.

[Romulox]

107. I've had more than "two bad experiences" with public school teachers...

And yet I still support unionized public school workers (this includes people like janitors, nurses, lunch-people, etc., btw.)

See the difference between you and I? One of us is asking to be treated better than we treat others... :hi:

[madfloridian]

110. You are superior to me. I refused to keep buying stuff that did not work.

And we did for years.

Now we can't find it, and it is not my fault.

Sick of it. You do not support teachers, not at all.

Keep your mindset, I will keep my Toyota for now.

You try to make us sound like fools and idiots.

The propaganda worked.

Sorry about your auto industry, but it is NOT my fault.

[ieoeja]

133. '72 Chevy Nova, '85 Chevy Cavalier, '97 Ford Mustang. Fine vehicles all.

Do they only sell piece of shit American cars to yuppies?

[PacerLJ35]

135. Mustang...sure....the rest, well...

The Cavalier wasn't a BAD car, but it didn't measure up to many of the competitor's cars of the time. The Nova was really before the days when imports changed the business, so it's hard to say. The only Nova I had experience with was a friend's Nova, but by that time it was nearly a 20 year old car.

FWIW, I've owned many Ford vehicles, and have owned a Volvo, Mitsubishi, Toyota and Isuzu. By far, the Toyota was a workhorse and a very solid vehicle. It never, ever broke and I had 150,000 miles and only put it to pasture when it got wrecked and totaled. The Fords were probably next on the list...well, most of 'em. I had an '83 Ford Escort, '87 Tempo, '95 Ranger and a 2005 Freestyle. The Ranger was a terrific truck...only had one problem with it and drove the wheels off of it. The Freestyle was good, but not as good as the Toyota and I didn't own it long (divorce). The Tempo got me around, but I had a number of minor issues with it...but in general it was fairly reliable. The Escort...well...I was glad when I got rid of it.

The Volvo had a solid engine, but minor things tended to break, which was disappointing for a "luxury" car...power windows broke, etc. The Isuzu was the same way, and the Mitsubishi had transmission problems, the paint was terrible (it was 3 years old and started to fade and rust...WTF??).

I believe US cars are competitive, but they weren't very competitive until Japan gave them a race for their life.

[Mithreal]

112. Romulox, you are losing me. That is meanspirited and off the mark.

[Romulox]

119. It's simple role-reversal. If it appears "meanspirited", so did the statement it parrots.

:shrug:

[Romulox]

96. LOL. Did you pick up that the teacher you're responding to doesn't support the UAW?

"There is already some in built division between the two, white vs. blue collar."

For example, a teacher who drives foreign iron complaining that the NEA doesn't get automatic support? :hi:

[Mithreal]

97. I think the Michigan idea wasn't shared too well with the rest of the country

There is a disconnect, but I don't think it is intentional. I really liked the idea you threw out there, it has caused me to think along a number of new lines. I want to take a little time to digest it, but you are definitely on to something. There are probably a couple dead ends to the counter argument, but I do agree, buying union made is truly supporting unions. Teachers don't make a "product" and the people that talk like they do make me sick, but we need more union solidarity and more unions. Now to phrase it in a way that wins more true support.

[madfloridian]

102. That is a shame to use that argument.

But that is your right to do it.

Let the teachers' unions die, just like yours died.

Tit for tat, right?

Nothing to do with Clinton and NAFTA and turning our country over to corporations.

Let the schools die, let the teachers' unions die.

We always bought American until we started getting clunkers. Now we can not FIND anything made in America.

And it is all my effing fault.

[Romulox]

104. Perhaps the concept of "solidarity" eludes you? nt

[madfloridian]

108. I did not cause the fall of the auto unions.

It happened LONG before I bought a Toyota. It is NOT my fault.

I tried to keep buying American, but the product failed me.

You keep that attitude, go ahead.

Blame teachers for all of it.

We are used to being the scapegoats.

Solidarity...my hind foot.

I just did some searches, and you are not big into solidarity with teachers.

[Romulox]

122. And I did not cause the fall of the NEA. Again, same same. (Only one thing different!)

:hi:

[Mithreal]

106. Romulox's underlying idea is solidarity, even if there was a little misdirected finger pointing

[madfloridian]

113. Solidarity, my hind foot.

He does not support teachers being unionized. Do a search and you will see. Only schools workers.

I'm done.

[Mithreal]

114. Ack, really. Romulox, you have some explaining to do! You know where I stand.

Be well, Mad.

[Romulox]

121. Wholecloth. See my response, below. nt

[Romulox]

120. This is a complete fabrication. Do indeed launch a search. nt

[Mithreal]

158. I'll keep an open mind. Ideas effect me more than personalities.

I really like Mad and a whole mess of other DU'ers and I understand when passion leads to a mistake in reading a comment or two. It happens to me regularly, so no stones cast by me on this one. Take care.

[spoony]

118. You're the one not supporting union labour.

Don't fucking lecture someone else when you stuck your own foot in your mouth about people not supporting teachers (I do) then admitting you don't support labour (you don't).

[Romulox]

93. So, you yourself only -SELECTIVELY- support unions. Why expect more of others?

:shrug:

[CatholicEdHead]

100. Pro-Union

They are not perfect, some are better than others, they are not required everywhere (e.g. good boss/good company) but it is good to have more than less of them in the overall workplace across the country.

[slackmaster]

111. Never been a member of one, but I do appreciate what they have done to improve working conditions

:hi:

[KamaAina]

115. I see we have a dozen or so trolls out there

:eyes:

[Dinger]

123. 14 Trolls and Counting (nt)

[alfredo]

116. I'll be a union man until the day I die.

[geardaddy]

124. Writers Union here.

In solidarity.

[TheKentuckian]

128. Pro, never been in a union may well never be but know they are the workers

only voice, realize their sacrifices lifted all ships, and that their pay and benefits help to keep up many if not all others. Which is why the "right to work" hate them so bad because if GM pays $18 then they have to come up with $12.

I also keep in mind that even poor old Bob Cratchet from the Christmas Carol was "white collar" despite not being able to really care for his family. The unions lift us all.

[Nye Bevan]

129. The 14 who voted "anti-union" should bear in mind

that they are not anonymous to the admins of this site:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2741812&mesg_id=2742350

[PacerLJ35]

130. So are you saying that you must be a die-hard union supporter to post on this site?

I didn't see that in the forum rules...I think it said you must generally support Democratic party ideals, and not everyone supports every labor group blindly.

[Bluebear]

134. Disruptor.

[PacerLJ35]

136. Why?

I have and will support certain union activities. But I've also been opposed to some union efforts too. Why is having my own opinion a bad thing?

[Bluebear]

138. Do tell what "union efforts" you oppose?

[PacerLJ35]

141. I grew up in St Louis

A very union town. Many people I knew were from long-time union families. There was a general dislike of people who weren't union, and I can remember people would ask if my father was in a union (he wasn't) and it seemed to stir up negative reactions in people. I knew a few guys who went to work in the GM plant in Shreveport, working on the assembly line and making more money than I made as an officer in the military. I'm all for fair wages, but it seemed a little ridiculous. My dad was also an officer in the military and my friend's parents made more money and very cush benefits doing things that weren't anywhere near as critical.

I'm not saying unions aren't useful or necessary...certainly they are. I was a big union supporter when the helicopter operators around the Gulf of Mexico gradually went union...new pilots were making less than Burger King wages, flying VFR helicopters in poor weather under threat of being fired for trying to be safe. Unions came in to represent the pilots, and starting pay doubled (to about $30k a year, back in the late 1990s) and the union would step in to defend pilots who refused to fly because of unsafe weather conditions.

I also support airline pilot unions. Very well run, represent the pilots well, and also balance the needs of the pilots with the viability of the corporation. For example, after 9/11 and the airline revenues took a dump, they all took pay cuts to keep the companies afloat. Since then, as revenues have increased, they've gradually been working on better pay scales.

Essentially, like anything in life, there are good, effective unions, and there are unions that need change and have become ineffective.

[Bluebear]

144. Don't blame the GM factory worker.If you think you are 'worth more' than them, blame your employer.

In this case the government.

[PacerLJ35]

145. I don't think you'd want to pay that tax bill...

if government and military personnel were paid like some union employees are paid.

I guess my point is...I keep an open mind. I have to tell you...some unions it seems like dealing with them is great...they are very professional and work to ensure a fair middle ground for all involved. Other unions, having known many friends/family that belong to them, it seemed like a lot of strong-arm tactics and they are quite negative towards non-union people...and the organization seems to focus entirely on getting more, more, more for their members without really caring about any other impacts.

As I said...there are really good unions out there, and some that leave a little to be desired.

Of course, that's my opinion. Perhaps I should be banned from DU for having such a "radical" opinion?

[Mithreal]

163. Mind answering Bluebear's question, please? Which do you oppose?

[Dinger]

156. Wow, You're New. Welcome To DU!

[harkadog]

140. Is DU unionized?

[Mithreal]

162. They'll rationalize it with some weaselly excuse

[workinclasszero]

139. When the american union movement was at its strongest

the american middle class was the envy of the world. Since Raygun and his republican capitalist pig party declared war on the unions, the middle class has shrunk into nothingness.

Cowinkydink? I think not.

[Drunken Irishman]

142. I am pro-Tony Soprano union.

:o

[Vidar]

147. Pro.

[GliderGuider]

148. I have a question about auto unions

Since I don't know anything about auto worker contracts.

Is the speed of the line open to negotiation by the union?

[proud2BlibKansan]

154. American Federation of Teachers

:woohoo:

[gleaner]

155. Pro Union .......

I used to be a Union Steward before I retired and I know how necessary unions are. Look at what their weakening and absence is doing to American workers.

[REP]

160. More unions = more power for the workers = a better life for us all

A little oversimplified, but not by much.

[Maru Kitteh]

161. PROUDLY pro-union