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Cant trust em Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 07:05 PM
Original message
I need info on the cadillac plan tax
Sorry, but I'm at work and I don't have time to research this.

I'm looking for exactly what makes them high value and then the pros and cons for taxing these plans.

If you could help me out, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R to keep this visible -- I'd like to learn more about it, too. nt
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Cant trust em Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Funny how it's been up for nearly an hour and nary a response.
Sometimes I wonder if there is more than a handful of posters here who really know anything.
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wikipedia has it in a nutshell
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Thanks - that was actually pretty good. I usually prefer to get DU's input
on stuff like this -- I just seem to understand it better.


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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. If I understand this correctly
Cadillac Plans are simply a rip-off of the consumer. Only about 5-10% of the increased cost is attributable to the actual value of the benefits. It sounds as though the insurance companies are riding in a Cadillac and the insureds are taking the bus.

Which raises the question, why SHOULDN'T we tax the hell out of these plans -- remember that the tax is being paid by the insurance company, not the insured. It would seem that insurance companies are reaping enourmous profits off these plans.

And if your employer is offering a "Cadillac Plan" in lieu of pay, it sounds like you're getting screwed out of your wages.

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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. See? You guys can give me more info in a more understandable and meaningful
way. Thanks! :hi:
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-13-10 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
32. Folks add their own emotional flavor to it
Wikipedia purports to be a straightforward explanation, which was why I recommended it.

Opinions are so varied about the tax. A lot of people didn't seem to realize that to implement a program that benefits the neediest in our country money has to come out of ALL our pockets. Sometimes we all have to pitch in and do our part--we can't stand back and expect somebody else to do all the heavy lifting.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. My understand is that any plan that costs $ 23,000 a year or more will be
subject to 40% tax on the amount exceeding $ 23,000.

Wouldn't bet the farm on it.
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rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. Great report on this topic on the "News Hour" (PBS) last night.
Edited on Tue Jan-12-10 08:14 PM by rgbecker
1. The cost of these plans may have nothing whatsoever to do with benefits provided by these plans. Because the Insurance market is so screwy, it may be based simply on the size of the company, or make up of the company's employees that make these "Cadillac" policies so expensive. That said there is a good chance the benefits are affecting the price at least somewhat.

2. Right now, these plans represent tax free income to the employees that get them. Neither the company, the insurance company nor the employee have to pay taxes on the value of these plans. Someone who is buying their own policy, on the other hand is paying for their plan with after tax dollars, and so is paying taxes on their health insurance. (Unless they qualify for a deduction because their deductible expenses are high enough to qualify, for example if health insurance premiums together with medical expenses are above 7.5% of income, that amount above might qualify for a deduction if they are itemizing deductions.)

3. If the policy qualifies as a "Cadillac", the amount of premium over $23,000 would be taxed as if it were regular income. If the worker were in the 15% tax bracket, they would have to pay 15% of the that amount over $23,000. (Editing to add this: Some reports show this as 40% and 35% regardless of which tax bracket the worker is in. Either way this is not an excise tax as that would imply that a tax has been paid on this income already: it has not....it is tax free wages in the form of an insurance policy rather than cash.)

4. Those against this method of raising money to pay for the HCR bill which will cover 30 million more people, some of whom will not be able to pay for their insurance themselves, are probably thinking this is some sort of hugely burdensome price to pay.

5. Those that are for it think that those with such a nice policy would be willing to share at least a little with their fellow, not well off countrymen. I mean to say, how bad is it that everyone would have to pay taxes on what they earn, right across the board without special deals just because you take some of your pay in the form of prepaid health insurance?

6. Also, many think that a way to get health care expenses down, and health insurance rates down would be to make it cost a little more to use the system for things like cosmetic surgery, private rooms, who knows what else.

Here's the link to PBS for when you get off work: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june10/cadillac_01-11.html
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. So my first question regards the $23,000 number. Is that per individual family member?
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. That's for a family, I believe the ceiling for a
individual is $8000 or $8500.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. exactly:
" the tax to be levied on insurance companies would be equal to 40 percent of total premiums paid on insurance plans costing more than $8,000 annually for individuals and $21,000 for families. Retirees over age 55 and people in high-risk professions would be allowed to have somewhat more valuable plans before they're taxed.

The Finance version already reflected compromises in response to labor's concerns, and senators have said the values of plans to be taxed will be even higher in the final bill the Senate will debate.

Trumka emphasized he continued to view the insurance tax plan as bad policy, saying that labor's preferred approach to pay for the $900 billion, 10-year legislation is the one taken by the House, which would raise income taxes on individuals earning more than $500,000 a year and households making more than $1 million......"

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/10/26-8
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rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Here it is right out of the bill:
$8,500 for individual, $23,000 for family or everybody else.

Note provision for cost of living increase, so all the talk about suddenly including everyone is bull shit.











SEC. 4980I. EXCISE TAX ON HIGH COST EMPLOYER-SPONSORED HEALTH COVERAGE.

`(a) Imposition of Tax- If--

`(1) an employee is covered under any applicable employer-sponsored coverage of an employer at any time during a taxable period, and

`(2) there is any excess benefit with respect to the coverage,

there is hereby imposed a tax equal to 40 percent of the excess benefit.

`(b) Excess Benefit- For purposes of this section--

`(1) IN GENERAL- The term `excess benefit' means, with respect to any applicable employer-sponsored coverage made available by an employer to an employee during any taxable period, the sum of the excess amounts determined under paragraph (2) for months during the taxable period.

`(2) MONTHLY EXCESS AMOUNT- The excess amount determined under this paragraph for any month is the excess (if any) of--

`(A) the aggregate cost of the applicable employer-sponsored coverage of the employee for the month, over

`(B) an amount equal to 1/12 of the annual limitation under paragraph (3) for the calendar year in which the month occurs.

`(3) ANNUAL LIMITATION- For purposes of this subsection--

`(A) IN GENERAL- The annual limitation under this paragraph for any calendar year is the dollar limit determined under subparagraph (C) for the calendar year.

`(B) APPLICABLE ANNUAL LIMITATION- The annual limitation which applies for any month shall be determined on the basis of the type of coverage (as determined under subsection (f)(1)) provided to the employee by the employer as of the beginning of the month.

`(C) APPLICABLE DOLLAR LIMIT- Except as provided in subparagraph (D)--

`(i) 2013- In the case of 2013, the dollar limit under this subparagraph is--

`(I) in the case of an employee with self-only coverage, $8,500, and

`(II) in the case of an employee with coverage other than self-only coverage, $23,000.

`(ii) EXCEPTION FOR CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS- In the case of an individual who is a qualified retiree or who participates in a plan sponsored by an employer the majority of whose employees are engaged in a high-risk profession or employed to repair or install electrical or telecommunications lines--

`(I) the dollar amount in clause (i)(I) (determined after the application of subparagraph (D)) shall be increased by $1,350, and

`(II) the dollar amount in clause (i)(II) (determined after the application of subparagraph (D)) shall be increased by $3,000.

`(iii) SUBSEQUENT YEARS- In the case of any calendar year after 2013, each of the dollar amounts under clauses (i) and (ii) shall be increased to the amount equal to such amount as in effect for the calendar year preceding such year, increased by an amount equal to the product of--

`(I) such amount as so in effect, multiplied by

`(II) the cost-of-living adjustment determined under section 1(f)(3) for such year (determined by substituting the calendar year that is 2 years before such year for `1992' in subparagraph (B) thereof), increased by 1 percentage point.

If any amount determined under this clause is not a multiple of $50, such amount shall be rounded to the nearest multiple of $50.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Thanks.
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rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. It is called an excise tax of 40% of the amount over $8500 or $23000.
See the "Cadillac" portion of the bill in my post below.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. here's what physicians say about the Cadillac tax: (article):
Edited on Tue Jan-12-10 08:28 PM by amborin
" the tax to be levied on insurance companies would be equal to 40 percent of total premiums paid on insurance plans costing more than $8,000 annually for individuals and $21,000 for families. Retirees over age 55 and people in high-risk professions would be allowed to have somewhat more valuable plans before they're taxed.

The Finance version already reflected compromises in response to labor's concerns, and senators have said the values of plans to be taxed will be even higher in the final bill the Senate will debate.

Trumka emphasized he continued to view the insurance tax plan as bad policy, saying that labor's preferred approach to pay for the $900 billion, 10-year legislation is the one taken by the House, which would raise income taxes on individuals earning more than $500,000 a year and households making more than $1 million......"




says
WASHINGTON - December 22 - A national organization of 17,000 physicians who favor a single-payer health care system called on the U.S. Senate today to defeat the health care legislation presently before it and to immediately consider the adoption of an expanded and improved Medicare-for-All program.

While noting that the Senate bill includes some “salutary provisions” like an expansion of Medicaid, increased funding for community clinics and the curbing of some of the worst practices of the private insurance industry, the group says the negatives in the bill outweigh the positives.

The negatives, the group says, include the individual mandate requiring that people buy private insurance policies, large government subsidies to private insurers, new restrictions on abortion, the unfair taxing of high-cost health plans, and cuts of $43 billion in Medicare payments to safety-net hospitals. Moreover, at least 23 million people will remain uninsured when the plan finally takes effect, they said.

“We have concluded that the Senate bill’s passage would bring more harm than good,” the group said in a statement signed by its president, Dr. Oliver Fein, and two co-founders, Drs. David Himmelstein and Steffie Woolhandler.

Addressing the Senate in an open letter, they write: “We ask that you defeat the bill currently under debate, and immediately move to consider the single-payer approach – an expanded and improved Medicare-for-All program – which prioritizes the advancement of our nation’s health over the enhancement of private, profit-seeking interests.”

The full statement appears below.


To the Members of the U.S. Senate:

It is with great sadness that we urge you to vote against the health care reform legislation now before you. As physicians, we are acutely aware of the unnecessary suffering that our nation’s broken health care financing system inflicts on our patients. We make no common cause with the Republicans’ obstructionist tactics or alarmist rhetoric. However, we have concluded that the Senate bill’s passage would bring more harm than good.

We are fully cognizant of the salutary provisions included in the legislation, notably an expansion of Medicaid coverage, increased funds for community clinics and regulations to curtail some of private insurers’ most egregious practices. Yet these are outweighed by its central provisions – particularly the individual mandate – that would reinforce private insurers’ stranglehold on care. Those who dislike their current employer-sponsored coverage would be forced to keep it.

Those without insurance would be forced to pay private insurers’ inflated premiums, often for coverage so skimpy that serious illness would bankrupt them. And the $476 billion in new public funds for premium subsidies would all go to insurance firms, buttressing their financial and political power, and rendering future reform all the more difficult.

Some paint the Senate bill as a flawed first step to reform that will be improved over time, citing historical examples such as Social Security. But where Social Security established the nidus of a public institution that grew over time, the Senate bill proscribes any such new public institution. Instead, it channels vast new resources – including funds diverted from Medicare – into the very private insurers who caused today’s health care crisis. Social Security’s first step was not a mandate that payroll taxes which fund pensions be turned over to Goldman Sachs!

While the fortification of private insurers is the most malignant aspect of the bill, several other provisions threaten harm to vulnerable patients, including:

* The bill’s anti-abortion provisions would restrict reproductive choice, compromising the health of women and adolescent girls.

* The new 40 percent tax on high-cost health plans – deceptively labeled a “Cadillac tax” – would hit many middle-income families. The costs of group insurance are driven largely by regional health costs and the demography of the covered group. Hence, the tax targets workers in firms that employ more women (whose costs of care are higher than men’s), and older and sicker employees, particularly those in high-cost regions such as Maine and New York.

* The bill would drain $43 billion from Medicare payments to safety-net hospitals, threatening the care of the 23 million who will remain uninsured even if the bill works as planned. These threatened hospitals are also a key resource for emergency care, mental health care and other services that are unprofitable for hospitals under current payment regimes. In many communities, severely ill patients will be left with no place to go – a human rights abuse.

* The bill would leave hundreds of millions of Americans with inadequate insurance – an “actuarial value” as low as 60 percent of actual health costs. Predictably, as health costs continue to grow, more families will face co-payments and deductibles so high that they preclude adequate access to care. Such coverage is more akin to a hospital gown than to a warm winter coat.

Congress’ capitulation to insurers – along with concessions to the pharmaceutical industry – fatally undermines the economic viability of reform. The bill would inflate the already crushing burden of insurance-related paperwork that currently siphons $400 billion from care annually.

According to CMS’ own projections, the bill will cause U.S. health costs to increase even more rapidly than presently, and budget neutrality is to be achieved by draining funds from Medicare and an accounting trick – front-loading the new revenues while delaying most new coverage until 2014. As homeowners seduced into balloon mortgages have learned, pushing costs off to the future is neither prudent nor sustainable.


http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2009/12/22-1
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rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. I'm for single payer also, but we have got to get something passed.
A combination of the Cadillac tax and an increase in the rates of those earning over $250,000/year would do the trick. Increase the rates to resemble those in effect before Reagan and you will see a better balance between the rich and poor in this country.

I can't believe the Unions are now saying this bill is worse than Status quo. WTF? Are we all republicans now? NO to everything?
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. You're bashing unions and calling other people Republicans?
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rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Sorry Man, Just can't believe all the Naysayers about this historic opportunity.
People wonder why we can't get single payer through, even though it would surely raise everyone's taxes. Meanwhile we have people bitching that they suddenly have to pay taxes on a small portion of their now tax free income, and joining others in saying the bill is worse than nothing. That is what the Republicans are saying so explain the difference.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Here is a marvelous post exlaining it:
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
17. here's more great explanation, thanks to earlier OP by Inna:
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. I followed your link...
But to the point I made upthread, if only 5-10% of the additional cost of the Cadillac Plan is attributable to the actual value of the benefits, it sounds as though insurance companies are reaping massive windfalls and giving very little in return to the consumers.

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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. that seems to be it, in a nutshell n/t
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. OK - Not Trying To Start A Flamefest....
but why do the unions cling to these plans? Honest to God, this is really just a question looking for an answer and not trying to start anything or be cute.

If these plans are basically a cash cow for the insurance companies, wouldn't it make more sense to tax them into oblivion so that they're replaced with plans with similar coverages -- and similar costs -- to those outlined in the Senate Bill?

Am I missing something?
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rgbecker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Good Points...Here's from the Debate on the News Hour:
Seems the insurance market is screwy because like health care itself, its not transparent. Bivens is the anti cadillac guy and other guy thinks everyone should be paying taxes on these benefits as if they were wages, like everyone else has to.
Read the transcript....pretty good discussion.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june10/cadillac_01-11.html




JOSH BIVENS, Economic Policy Institute: I don't know if I would call it a giveaway. I do think it's not a great idea.

I mean, I think one problem is, it's often talked -- it's called a Cadillac tax. And the idea is that we're taxing somehow lavish plans that provide generous coverage. It's not very well targeted at all. I would be in favor of some sort of well-targeted way to do this, but this is a very poorly targeted policy proposal.

GWEN IFILL: You're saying the people who benefit from it are people who are just middle-class folks?

JOSH BIVENS: Well, actually, I would say there are reasons why health insurance plans are expensive, and generosity is not necessarily one of them. We have a very dysfunctional health insurance market, and high-cost plans do not equal high-value plans.

In fact, research says that, of the entire spread of health insurance premiums, their cost, only about 4 percent can -- of that can be accounted for by generosity of plan. You're likely to have an expensive plan if you work for a small firm, if you work for a firm with an aging work force. It really is not about Cadillac plans or lavish benefits. It's just people who happen to work for -- in those kinds of workplaces.

So, I think it's very poorly targeted in that regard.
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. This is what I'm struggling with...
If these plans are largely crap, why would the unions care if they're eliminated.

My only thought is that the union leadership told the rank and file workers, "Hey look what we negotiated for you" when what they negotiated for was nothing at all to cheer about.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. they're not largely crap
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-13-10 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Maybe "crap" is too strong a word...
But the information that I'm getting is that it's pretty had to justify the cost of these plans compared the actual benefit that the employee is receiving.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. i think you're missing something
it's not simply unions that have these plans

many, many workers, including majority who aren't unionized (remember, unionization levels are at an historic low and only approx, what, 13% of the work force is unionized...maybe it's 7% by now, I have to look it up) also have these "cadillac" plans.

Labeling is everything; these plans aren't really "cadillac" at all; they are only relative to the horrible coverage so many people endure...

the point of this long winded blurb is: why should middle class workers have to have their employer- provided health benefits taxed?

the tax is not only an onerous financial burden in and of itself; but it will ultimately force many to opt for lousier coverage, in an attempt to reduce their tax burden.

and, due to "bracket creep," this tax will hit an ever growing % of workers, reaching further down the income and benefit hierarchy with each year....

so....what is it you advocate? that people drop their halfway decent coverage for much lousier coverage, which will wind up costing the same as the somewhat better coverage does now, due to the fact that their is no ceiling on premium prices which insurers can charge?
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-13-10 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. I don't think so...
I'm middle class. My insurance coverage is fairly standard.

I pay half the cost and my employer pays the other half. Between us, it costs about $9,000. Throw in No Deductibles and we're talking about $12,000. Throw in Vision Coverage (I don't have it) and we're up to about $15,000.

The excise tax kicks in on family plans IN EXCESS of $23,000. I can't account for the $8,000 between the enhanced costs of my plan and that $23,000 figure -- much less the amount above $23,000. If somebody is paying $30K for insurance, they've either got coverages the likes of which I've never heard of, or somebody is making a lot of money off them. Sombody being the insurance companies.

I'm not necessarily advocating anything. I'm trying to understand this. But is the person with the "Cadillac Plan" had my coverage, they'd have an admittedly lesser plan, but they might be paying half as much for it.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-13-10 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. you pay half?
your plan is roughly $9K a year

but the excise kicks in at first for those with only $8K a year

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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-13-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I have family coverage
I'm not even close to the limit. Single coverage is less than half amount.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-13-10 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. costs vary significantly regionally
you must live in a lower cost area

costs can vary nationwide by as much as 30%

in any case....you are paying half of the $9K....up to $15K if you include vision and no deductibles....you are then a tiny bit below the national average for family coverage....
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-12-10 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
20. It should be only Cadillac OWNERS who get taxed
Although these days, it could be a "Hummer Health Care Tax" or a "Mercedes Health Care Tax"
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