The homosexual recruitment argument

[dickthegrouch]

We hear that Proposition 8 advertising played on stereotypes historically used to portray homosexuals as perverts who prey on young children, out to entice straight people into sick behavior (AP).

The whole argument of recruitment relies on an apparently exceptionally attractive choice that many would take except for the societal pressure to refrain from doing so. How recruitable were (are) you? Why would you assume different behavior or psychology in anyone else?

How many people feeling that societal pressure to conform are now in unhappy inappropriate heterosexual relationships (resulting in a higher divorce rate and more single-parent families)? How much more successful and fulfilled might those people be in the relationship they secretly desire? The best education opens people up to all possibilities and viewpoints without judgment and allows people to make appropriate choices for themselves.

In particular the Catholic Church's ridiculous conclusion of societal collapse as a result of allowing people to enter into appropriate relationships for themselves, is abusive towards the young Catholics who are wrestling with same sex attractions. Catholicism is (eventually) a choice. The Catholics can have whatever rules they choose in their private club. Those nations that have equal protection clauses have no choice but to live up to their promise of that equal protection.

The law requires waiting until one is an adult to act on many aspects of life including expression of sexuality. It also requires consent between the parties. I do not see any compelling interest for the State to regulate any other aspect of people's chosen relationship behavior.

[Lex]

1. I often wondered why they feel heterosexuality is so fragile

or so it seems from the way they go on and on about it being threatened.

[Smarmie Doofus]

4. *And* marriage. nt

[sui generis]

2. they're not worried about little straight kids going gay

they're worried about little straight kids growing up accepting that other people are gay and just as normal.

[Smarmie Doofus]

6. Mmmm. *Both* really. Good point. nt

[Kitty Herder]

18. Yes.

That seems to be their concern. How petty and ignorant.

[dmallind]

3. Dunno never got that either

I SUPPOSE some exceptionally persuasive and charming person could talk me into trying something I would initially be reluctant to do, but whether I would try it again depends on how much I enjoyed the experiment. In other words for anyone with a lick of sense, self esteem and personal resposnibility, recruitment is only going to "take" if they enjoy it.

The issue does have some merit in some ways (bear with me here) in that according to most credible research few of us are 100% hetero- or 100% homo- in our sexuality. In the past social mores that saw homosexual acts as depraved was probably a strong enough demotivator for those in the 90-60% or so hetero- range to experiment with it, but as mores change they are more likely to do so now and discover that they actually do have some homosexual inclination as well as some heterosexual inclination. Eventually a sliding scale of "bisexuality percentage" seems to be likely to become more and more prevalent.

[dickthegrouch]

10. Threat to monogamy might be a more appropriate characterization then

Your theory would result in a more believable possibility of a threat to the monogamy implied in marriage.

An interesting aspect to muse on. It still doesn't change the State's claim, and duty, to treat all of us equally.

[dmallind]

16. I agree. It's not an argument against equality, just a prediction regardless of it

To be honest I don't think marriage equality per se would make much difference to this. It's happening already and will continue to, because it's based on increasing acceptance of homosexuality. In effect this and marriage equality are both effects of the same cause - societal acceptance.

It's slower than it should be (social acceptance that is) but it's inevitable. I'm only 41 for pete's sake and my school would have never even given lip service to any acceptance of gays on the part of the student body. It's not that we were all raging homophobes (I went to an all-boys' public school in the UK so trust me on this) but that it was definitely not something that was openly discussed let alone "encouraged" as an example of diversity and tolerance. Homosexual activity obviously existed there, but was kept intensely sub rosa. The idea of having a gay-straight alliance club would have been laughable at the time. The only gay bar I was aware of in my fairly major city never advertised the fact, even went out of the way to deny it, but was simply known to be one by those who cared. A rainbow flag (let alone a neon rainbow beer sign supplied by a brewery as my local gay bar has now)? Absolutely unthinkable.

[Arkansas Granny]

5. I am a straight female and over the years, I have had many friends of all sexual orientations.

Not once did I ever feel that I was being "recruited" or that they would "prey" on my children. I suppose those who think homosexuality is a choice think that anyone can be turned, therefore their ignorance causes them to fear that someone will tempt them into becoming a "pervert". Either that or they harbor urges that they are afraid to admit, even to themselves.

[dickthegrouch]

11. That's exactly why I asked the question in my OP

And why I wrote about education.

I would encourage anyone hearing the recruitment argument to counter it with the question

Ask yourself how recruitable were/are you?

[Saphire]

25. I agree. I've had a gay sister for 51 years and have never felt she

wanted to "recruit" me or my kids. Heck, my kids absolutely LOVED going to the Gay Pride parades with "auntie" when they were young, and I never worried one iota about them being recruited or "preyed upon" . My father in law was absolutely appalled that I would let her take my kids to "something like that". The result of so much gay influences you ask? Well, only a wonderful, 20 year long, loving relationship with dear auntie J, but also her wife - auntie P! For some reason, they haven't even spoken to Grampa in 8 years. Hmmmmm.

[Fleshdancer]

7. The only explanation that has ever made sense to me...

I can't help but wonder if the people who are most concerned about "recruitment" are people who have a hard time dealing with any thoughts or dreams that they consider homo erotic. Whether it be a game of doctor with their best friend as a kid or realizing they thought a person of the same sex was attractive, etc. What they don't realize is that thinking about or engaging in homosexual sex is not the same thing as being gay. Just like being gay and having straight sex doesn't mean you're straight (yes, I'm talking about YOU Ted Haggard).

For some, it's easier to simply lash out and hate others instead of dealing with one's own sexuality. It's weird that anyone would find comfort in constricting their sexuality based on religion, but this seems to be the case for many. I find it tragic.

[Stevenmarc]

8. Hell, I just wanted my free toaster

[Bigmack]

9. When I was young....

I was an altar boy. None of the priests ever made a pass at me. Nobody who was gay made a pass at me. But it wouldn't have made any diff. I was pretty committed to girls from an early age. (Shiiiit.. none of the girls made a pass at me, either.)

I think that people who make the argument about gay recruitment are insecure in their own sexuality. They worry whether they might suddenly "go gay" if somebody tried to recruit them.

[dickthegrouch]

13. I actually became an altar boy hoping the rumors were true

I was unsuccessful :(

My self esteem was profoundly damaged as the result of my complete inability to find anyone to connect with romantically while growing up.

By the time I actually met out gay people, I had given up all hope of finding people so stunningly attractive.

[Bigmack]

15. I got recruited....

into the Marine Corps... and I got fucked over and over again! .... against my will, too.

Anybody thinking about ending that kind of recruiting?

[Touchdown]

27. That's actually close to reality.

In expose's about sex between men in the military, the common theme is that Marines are usually bottoms more than sailors and soldiers... something about being able to take pain makes one more of a man.:evilgrin:

[pipi_k]

24. I actually have had passes made at me by lesbians, but

none of them ever got nasty or weird, you know?

And I've had fleeting thoughts...even dreams...about other women. I'm about as straight as they come too, but the lesbian dreams/thoughts never bothered me because I realize that we all have male and female hormones coursing through our bodies every day.

OTOH, even though I'm comfortable with the thoughts and dreams I've had, I'm absolutely sure I'm not vulnerable to recruitment.

Which makes the gay bashers' argument pretty lame.

[damntexdem]

12. When I was growing up, the RC Church was concerned about the heterosexual recruiting issue.

Nothing till marriage was their concern -- and the marriage had to be done by their rules.

Hmm, consider the "by their rules." You don't suppose they like the feeling of power over people's lives, do you? ;-)

[Gold Metal Flake]

14. I resisted recruitment. Too much paperwork.

I first heard the recruitment canard while working as a call screener on a radio talk show in the mid-1980s. It was the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard. Guy claimed his son was recruited at a construction job site. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

21. Everybody wants to be a macho man.

lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO43p2Wqc08

[Touchdown]

17. It makes perfect sense. It's another Christian lie. A lie among millions.

It's easy to prey on the gullible to swallow anything when they already believe in virgins who have babies and a savior who creates zombies (Lazarus).

[gleaner]

19. Proposition 8 is sick ....

so are the people who support it and the stereotypes it pushes. It is however a sickness of choice. All they would have to do is clean their own house first and mind their own business when comes to other peoples houses. The State has no business regulating anyone's sexuality or how they express it as long as both parties are consenting adults. Very simple, but seemingly incomprehensible to many people.

[Skittles]

20. I would listen to them more when they show up at my door

if they would just ditch the pink feather boas - I mean, come on

[Hugabear]

22. How exactly do homosexuals recruit?

Do they go into schools, set up booths and give seminars like the military does? Do they have recruitment centers in shopping centers? Do they produce videogames and distribute for free via the internet? Or perhaps it's like when a college is recruiting an athlete, do they send out prominent homosexuals to a young person's home to talk to them?

I'm rather confused what this process is.

:sarcasm:

[pipi_k]

26. Oh, it's nothing as above-board as that....

Gay recruiters hide in the shadows with big sticks...like ships' hands who used to troll seaports looking for crew to knock over the head and drag off to sea to work a couple of years.

Sometimes they work in teams..."Excuse me, sir, but I think your fly is open". He bends over to look, and BANG!!! Hit from behind, in the head, with a Gay Stick, and dragged off to a Gay Re-education Center.

Sometimes they work alone..."Hey little boy...I lost my dog. Can you help me find him?" OH NOES!!!! The poor kid is thrown into the back of a Gay Van and returned to his family only after he's able to recite all the words to Disco Tex and the Sex-o-lettes' song "Get Dancing".

Be afraid...be very afraid....

:scared:

[Touchdown]

28. No, no, no. We have youth ministries and summer camps.

If we catch them young, then they have a better chance of being saved from having to date the opposite sex where they choose minivans instead of convertibles. If they don't confess their sins of their hetero-broken-ness then they will forever be damned to live in torment in Glendale instead of West Hollywood, where they will be happy to worship the six pack abs.

See any projection correlations here?

[donco6]

30. It's all Vegan mind control.

We appear to you as your father. It's all terribly kinky.

[LeftyMom]

33. Ixnay on the indmay ontrolcay! We only agreed to help out if you kept our secret ability quiet.

Don't make me call our mutual bosses at the soybean cabal- they're busy upping the mo factor on this next batch of formula. I hear rumors it's so high you can bank on a disco revival when these kids grow up.

[struggle4progress]

23. People often reach their conclusions first, then "rationalize" their conclusions. Attitudes towards

sexuality arise in complicated ways: there are hardwired "instinctual" components, which might depend on genetics or on fetal exposure to certain hormones at particular developmental stages; personal experiences at key stages in development should also be expected to play an important role

Since people typically regard their own personal views and reactions as right and normal, one expects people to construct later arguments explaining why their own preexisting views and reactions are right and normal. Claims (say) about "homosexual recruitment" may not actually reflect how people came to a particular conclusion about "homosexuality" -- rather, it may reflect a process of justifying a conclusion they reached earlier by other means

When such a logical inversion exists, between the conclusion and an argument given to support it, one does not expect to change a person's conclusions by defeating the arguments used to support the conclusion, since the conclusion was reached first and the arguments produced only later to support it. In such cases, one must search for other methods for changing the conclusion

[Touchdown]

29. This is a case of pure projection.

Accusations of child recruitment stem purely from the child recruitment most churches engage in to catch them while they're young for their little Army of God.

See Summer Camps, Boy Scouts of America, Youth Ministries, The Jesus Camp movie. Hardline Protestant denominations actively, and blatantly target children to bolster their numbers, because their minds are still susceptible to fantasy as well as being less resistant to authority than adults.

[struggle4progress]

31. That might be true in some cases. I'm not in a position to evaluate any particular case,

since no one has ever made such a recruitment argument directly to me in person: I've only seen the argument in print. In any case, I don't think it conflicts with what I said, since the recruitment argument seems to me idiotic on its face, and projection may well be a standard method for constructing rationalizations of conclusions already reached

My point wass that debunking the recruitment argument may be a pointless exercise: no matter effective the debunking is, considered from a logical point of view, people who spout the recruitment argument are likely not to be persuaded by the debunking, since they have made up their minds on other grounds; a different angle of attack may be required

[dickthegrouch]

32. And a lot more desire to please their parents

and a lot less capable of dealing with the fear induced by the specter of that vengeful, cruel old man, god's, wrath that they are spoon fed from christening.