1.7 Billion Reasons to Defend Pat Robertson

[MineralMan]

http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/1520212697.html

"Contact: Rev. Dr. Gary L. Cass, Christian Anti-Defamation Commission, 800-508-2232

MEDIA ADVISORY, Jan. 13 /Christian Newswire/ -- It is excruciating to see the images of human suffering emanating from Haiti in the aftermath of the devastating earthquake. Prayers and practical compassionate care is truly needed.

But sometimes things are said in the midst of crises that exacerbate the already raw feelings of grieving people. So then what's all the fuss about Pat Robertson's remarks?

I first knew something was up while driving yesterday. I heard two national conservative talk radio personalities make some disparaging remarks about Pat Robertson, who, by the way, is one of the reasons they even have jobs. Pat was one of the most important leaders of a resurgent conservative movement.

When I got home I immediately looked up what Pat said and I was overwhelmed. But not by what Robertson had said, rather by the hype and hysteria of those who took an expression of genuine concern and hope for Haiti's future and used it to bash Pat..."



I found this in my so-far unsuccessful search for Christian Leaders criticizing Pat Robertson's scurrilous comments yesterday.

I'm still looking, and will report any criticism from Christian leaders as soon as I find any.

[meegbear]

1. An island nation in shambles and no one sheads a tear for Pat ...

what a sick world we live in.

[EFerrari]

27. These are the same people who minimized torturing innocent people

and called it "frat pranks".

[sarge43]

2. Ooo, the meanies are picking on Paddy.

Boo fucking hoo.

So, a successful revolt against colonial masters and establishment of a republic must be a pact with Satan, hear that George, John, Ben, Tom?

Oh that's right, we're talking about black slaves here. Never mind.

[SidDithers]

3. Good luck searching. Come back to us when you've finally given up...

:hi:

Sid

[MineralMan]

9. I'm almost ready. I looked a long time this morning in

Google News, using lots of different search terms. No joy.

[JHB]

4. "What exactly did Pat say that was so terribly egregious? "

That quote tells you everything you need to know about this guy and any organization he writes for.

[Jennicut]

5. The pastor at the church that my husband works at (he is an organist) went to Haiti

two years ago. He was stricken by the poverty there and really wanted to go back again. He was involved in efforts to get clean water to children. I bet there will be lots of donations Sunday at Zion Lutheran in Southingon, CT for Haiti.
Pat is an ass. Not all Christians represent his beliefs but the so called mainstream Christian leaders are not very Christian at all to begin with. I doubt any of them say anything.

[MaryBear]

6. Click on the link and read the entire article.

You'll find:

"... Last week it was Fox News analyst Brett Hume's turn to be attacked because he dared to compassionately urge Tiger Woods to turn to Christianity and find forgiveness and redemption. Now it's Pat Robertson's turn. ...

What the Robertson bashers left out is that finally, and with great compassion and concern in his voice, Pat said, "They need to have, and we need to pray for them, a great turning to God and out of this tragedy I am optimistic that some good thing may come, but right now we are helping the suffering people and the suffering is unimaginable."

Agree or disagree with what Pat said, it was well within the bounds of historic Christian theology. Maybe that's the real problem after all."

The REAL PROBLEM is the arrogance of these people in assuming others have not turned to nor been in relationship with God as these people know God!

[Gman2]

58. You've GOT to be kidding! To zing an I told ya so, to a dying nation

is beyond any Christianity. Old testament, sure. To say that on TV, is the height of crassness. And any christian that would defend any part of nanny nanny, is misguided. And his prayers dont come cheap. That piece of shit owns diamond mines, and has near slave labor. He is an owner of the bank of scotland. A bankster.

[vixengrl]

7. Operation Blessing--hmmm.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-68627454.html

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050919/blumenthal

Robertson's humanitarian status often carries a smattering of "what's in it for him?"

[blondeatlast]

8. With all due respect, MM, how do you define a Christian "leader"? Who would qualify?

A quick google of "haiti Christian pat robertson response" reveals the following, many of which are rebuking Robertson--but none with Robertson's media power, so I'm not sure what you want.

I understand your frustration, but true Christianity seeks humility (unlike Robertson). Pretty much the entire Book of Matthew is a repudiation of mega-preachers and theri followers.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ei=XUFPS_SDNo-QtgO4v-mJCA&sa=X&oi=spellfullpage&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=2&ved=0CAoQvwUoAQ&&q=christian+response+pat+robertson+haiti&spell=1

[MineralMan]

11. That's an excellent question.

A "Christian Leader" is one whose opinions influence large groups of Christians. In the Catholic Church, that would be a Bishop, Archbishop, or Cardinal. In the Episcopal Church in America, a Bishop would do. In Protestantism, some leader of an organization representing a denomination or group of denominations. In the fundamentalist movement, the head of the SBC or one of the mega-church folks would do.

Not a blogger. Not a commenter on a news site. Not a member of the Executive Branch of government.

Not a random Christian posting somewhere.

A leader. It's pretty simple. Someone who represents Christianity at some high level. Find me one of those.

There was condemnation from the of the Americans United for Separation of Church and State's spokespeople. That's good, and expected.

You let me know when you find a public statement in the media from a "Christian Leader." I'll appreciate the help in my search.

[blondeatlast]

14. I'll admit that I can't. I'll also admit that I can't think of a Christian "leader" who could

get the airtime to do so on a large scale. I'd LOVE it if I could.

I'm not a churchgoer so maybe I'm out of the loop. :shrug:

So I'll call this a win for you.

[MineralMan]

16. Not air time, necessarily. However,

I guarantee you that any Catholic bishop in the US could call the major newspaper in his city or send a press release to it about this and it would see print in the next edition. Same for Rick Warren. A press release from him condemning Robertson would make the local and national news.

You see what I mean by Christian leader. A Christian leader is someone who gets press when he/she wants to get press. There are lots of them.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

19. A Christian Leader is defined by his/her PR Machine?

Really? What a punk that Jesus Christ was! Never even issued a press release!

[MineralMan]

22. No, but Paul sure did. He sent out all those letters, a few

which have made it into the Canon. Check out Acts. It details the work of the early church.

Then there are all those denominations which have been out turning heathens to Christians for all those centuries.

Pretty good PR effort, there, on the part of Christianity.

And yet, they are silent in the face of Pat Robertson's nonsense. Are you claiming that there is no leadership in Christianity?

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

28. Not in the way that you're defining it....

Small-minded bigots like Pat Robertson issue hateful press releases. You're wanting Christian Leaders to prove themselves by engaging in the same petty, hateful antics as Pat Robertson.

Because they're NOT Pat Robertson -- and by that I mean, because they are REAL leaders of the Christian Church -- they're not likely to engage in this type of behavior.

That's like asking me to prove that I'm a pacifist by beating the crap out of somebody.

[MineralMan]

29. You have your point of view on this, and I have mine.

One of the reasons I left Christianity was this very thing. It was not the only thing, of course, but it played into that decision.

The failure to speak up when another Christian does vile things is endemic in Christian leadership. It reminds me of the Republicans 11th Commandment.

I'm pointing that out in this thread. You have done nothing to counter what I have said. You have only attempted to divert from it. That's your prerogative. I stand by my challenge to the Christian leadership to repudiate one of their peers who has said a vile thing. And, if you think Pat Robertson is not a leader of Christians, you are incorrect.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

31. You're not a Christian?

Well, knock me over with a feather.

You think that Christians should spend more time tearing each other down and finding fault with each other? That they should engage in public flamefests? I'm from the Lutheran tradition, and I'd like to share Luther's Small Catechsim and his definition of the Eighth Commandment (it's the one about "bearing false witness").

We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, think and speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.

You catch that last part there -- the stuff in bold? We're not supposed to engage in that sort of petty behavior -- which is precisely what Pat Robertson is doing and why real Christians consider it sinful. It's NOT CHRISTIAN. So for a Christian Leader to engage in it himself would make that person JUST AS NON-CHRISTIAN AS PAT ROBERTSON.

[MineralMan]

34. That is most certainly true...

[MineralMan]

36. As I recall, from my reading of the New Testament last year,

Jesus, himself, was not at all hesitant to speak out about hypocrites. He had some really choice words for them. Should the leaders of Christianity not follow his example? You see, I know what Jesus' teachings were, and they were not about being silent in the face of evil.

Perhaps a little study would be in order. Luther's Small Catechism, which I've also read thoroughly, is not the Bible, and Luther, himself, was far from a model of Christianity. You may want to read his writings regarding Jews, if you don't believe me. Holding up Luther as a Christ-like figure doesn't wash with me. I've actually read all of his writings. It's an education, to be sure.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

38. Oh brother....

The Lutheran Church repudiated Luther's writing on Jews something like 40 years ago, so you're a few decades late in catching that train. And in his defense, there's nothing Luther said about the Jews that he didn't say about the Pope or any of his contemporaneous opponents. Apparently heaping invective on his adversaries was just his rhetorical style.

So to summarize...

You (a non-Christian) are calling upon Christians to behave in a non-Christian manner in order to prove that they're Christians to the satisfaction of a non-Christian.

Ummm. Good luck with that?

[MineralMan]

42. You mentioned a piece of writing by Luther. I mentioned

another one. And it took the Lutheran Church HOW LONG to repudiate Luther? Really? And you're holding that up as positive evidence.

Luther began the Reformation. That does not mean he was a good man. It just means that he began the Reformation. Read his writings. Was he really a Christian? Really? How was he different from Pat Robertson?

And, yes, to your last question. That is exactly what I'm doing, except for the "non-Christian manner" part. Would Jesus have remained silent in the face of Pat Robertson's (or Luther's) evil statements? Or would he have said, "I do not know you?" I think I know which he'd do. Do you?

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

48. So you're basically saying....

that Jesus would have behaved more like you. Impressive!

Would this be the same Jesus who said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" or who, when given a chance to pronounce a hearty "piss off" to the Roman Empire said, instead, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's." That Jesus? Or were you thinking of that version of Jesus who acts the most like you do?

You seem to have the MineralMan version of the Way-The-World-Ought-To-Be and you appear to get awfully agitated when people don't behave the way you think they should. You have this pre-conceived notion of what it means to be a Christian, and now you're upset because Christians in the real world aren't acting according to your expectations.

I'm guessing you spend a lot of your time disappointed.

[meegbear]

54. Did the Corrinthians answer back?

:shrug:

[MineralMan]

59. They did, but the post office lost the letter.

Those Romans...

[blondeatlast]

23. Understood--and sadly, you are right. Seems no one is coming forward

and it is sickening.

God knows (sorry) the Catholic bishops in my city are all over the media when they have something to say and Warren absolutely could get air time. But alas, for whatever reason, Robertson is uncontested by leaders in my faith. I share your frustration and carry the shame of those who represent my faith alone.

You are spot-on on this one(as you so often are).

[MineralMan]

26. I sincerely wish I were not right...

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

17. You Can Stop Searching

Barry Lynn, the Executive Director of American United, is an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ.

And unlike Mr. Robertson, who seems to thrive on finding the mote in the eyes of others, I think you'll find most Christian Leaders will concentrate their efforts on doing something to aid the people of Haiti rather than engaging in the pointless condemnation of a tired, old man.

This from the National Council of Churches, the top story on their website:

NCC General Secretary Michael Kinnamon is urging an "immediate and generous response" to calls for aid following the earthquake that devastated Haiti Tuesday. "The destruction around Port-au-Prince is so massive it can't yet be measured," Kinnamon said. "What is clear is that the toll in lives and property will go beyond our ability to comprehend it. The situation has few precedents in our lifetimes, and our response to it must also be unprecedented."

Kinnamon called upon the 45-million members of congregations related to NCC member communions to act immediately to support the people of Haiti and relief organizations that are sending workers, food and water, clothing, and other necessities to Haiti. He cited contributions to Church World Service, the NCC's sister relief organization and historic partner, as a direct way of helping the people of Haiti.

We must pray for the people of Haiti, hundreds of thousands of whom are grieving the loss of loved ones, wandering dazed and homeless and hungry," Kinnamon said. "May our loving God be a powerful presence in their lives. Tragedies like this one are impossible to understand, and we need to remind ourselves that God is also shedding tears at the pain and suffering of God's children in Haiti."

You can donate online here through Church World Service.

[MineralMan]

18. That's all well and good, but it wasn't a repudiation of

Pat Robertson. I never said that Christians were not working hard to send aid to Haiti. Secular organizations are doing the same. I donated all I could yesterday.

Where is the repudiation?

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

21. As I said....

A real Christian is going to concentrate on what's important, and that's assisting the people of Haiti.

While the Pat Robertson's of the world issue hateful press releases.

The REAL Christian leaders are busy feeding the homeless and caring for the sick. You're basically asking for "real" Christians to prove they're real by behaving like the "false" Christians.

You'll be waiting a long time.

[sarge43]

33. Aren't Christians suppose to be against false witness?

Aren't Christians suppose to speak up against an injustice?

Christians have never heard of "silence implies consent" or "all it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to remain silent"?

Can't Christians multi task? How long would it take to issue a short simple statement?

I've noticed many Christian leaders waste no time or effort in publicly condemning issues they find repugnant.

I have no doubt many, if not most, are doing good works. However, the next time a Christian leader goes all righteous about some political issue, please forgive us 'nonbelievers' if we're somewhat dubious.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

39. See, now, that's the problem;..

We have non-believers telling us how we're supposed to act. Do I tell you how to be a good atheist? Seriously. And what's worse, you take the WORST examples of pseudo-Christians (i.e., Pat Robertson) and then tell us that we're NOT GOOD CHRISTIANS because we don't act like them! We're being good Christians when WE DON'T ACT LIKE THEM, get it?

So basically you're giving us the choice of confirming your ill opinions of Christianity be engaging in non-stop condemnation, or saying nothing and being accused agreeing with the opinions of someone we loathe just as much as you do.

[sarge43]

46. Well, first of all, why do you assuming I'm an atheist?

Not believing in your or any religion does not make someone an atheist.

Second, where did I say there weren't good Christians or they are acting like Robertson?

Finally, where did I demand anything, let alone non-stop condemnation? I merely asked some questions? You're the one making baseless assumptions, twisting my words and yelling; none are cogent arguments.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

50. He said, back-pedaling furiously...

:rofl:

[AuntPatsy]

47. KInd of been following your argument? I am a bit confused, you say that a true christian would not

waste time disparaging another because umm it's sinful? Wow just wow, that would mean that in all honesty there are perhaps one percent of the present number of so called christians in this country are just not what they say they are since they spend more time than naught disparaging others...


This is the true reason that church and state needs to be "gutted" out of american politics period, what one christian believes is the christian way to live one's life is not another's interpretation of whatever scripture they are massacring in that particular sunday's sermon to it's followers...

What is so wrong with ensuring faith remains personal in that I could care less what politician believes or does not believe, I could care less that another one's faith believes another neighbor's certain lifestyle is considered sinful...such needs to stay out of lawmaking and political discourse...I want to judge someone on their actions, not their personal beliefs as we all should be able to.

there is right and wrong, its all common sense, having faith in an unseen being has nothing to do with it, if someone believes only a person of faith is able to discern from right or wrong than that person obviously has gone through life with not only blinders on but ear plugs as well....

Faith does not a good person make...nor is faith able to understand the truth behind right and wrong...again, the proof in that is right there in front of us all...

[TCJ70]

20. Apparently actually doing things in Haiti...

...isn't proof enough that people aren't putting too much stock in what Pat Robertson says. If they really endorsed him, they wouldn't be doing anything. From The Salvation Army's website:

"The Salvation Army is mobilizing resources and personnel to assist with the international relief effort in Haiti following a severe earthquake Tuesday that damaged much of the country's infrastructure, housing and commercial buildings.

The Salvation Army has had a presence in Haiti since 1950 and currently operates schools, clinics, a hospital, feeding programs, children's homes and church-related activities spread across two major facilities in Port au Prince, close to the epicenter of the earthquake and at other locations in the country.

One of the facilities, or compounds as it is referred to, includes a home for more than 50 children; a school with a daily attendance of 1,500 children; a medical clinic caring for 150-200 people daily; and a church that on any typical Sunday welcomes nearly 1,000 people. The facility is less than 10 minutes from the National Palace and is in an area known as St. Martin that's home to predominantly poor living in the nation's capital."

http://usc.salvationarmy.org/usc/www_usc.nsf/vw-news-34/3261A6FE984C7338862576AA0051D886?opendocument

[SidDithers]

35. Barry Lynn is a leader of a secular organization...

who happens to be a Christian minister.

He's not a Christian leader.

Sid

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

41. Not a good Scotsman, is he?

So as long as we define "Christian Leader" in a way that precludes anybody from ever meeting your defination, you can't possibly be wrong.

Nice try...

[SidDithers]

45. I'm pretty sure the OP defined what he was looking for in post #11...

"Christian leader" being a prominent leader of Christian denomination or organization.

Barry Lynn is neither.

I'm not surprised at all that the leader of a secular organization would criticize Robertson.

Sid

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

49. And Barry Lynn qualifies based on that definition

A "Christian Leader" is one whose opinions influence large groups of Christians.

And Barry Lynn, in addition to his being an ordained minister and leading an organization deeply concerned with the place of religion in society, certain IS a person "whose opinions influence larges groups of Christians."

Rev. Lynn is a leader to a great many Christians.

And just to add another, here's Jim Wallis on Pat Robertson, back when Pat was advocating the assassination of Hugo Chavez: "Pat Robertson is an embarrassment to the church and a danger to American politics."

Now I haven't heard anything from Rev. Wallis himself on Robertson's latest outburst, but here's from the front page of Sojourners, the magazine that Wallis founded and has published since 1971:

"I know Jesus asks us to pray for people like Pat Robertson, but at the moment I just feel angry. The spiritual immaturity that’s revealed in the inability to enter into our own pain and the pain of the world by offering such ridiculous ‘answers’ (blaming the victims!) is shocking. What does it mean when self-proclaimed “Christian leaders” are against the message of Christ? What does it mean when “evangelists” seem to convert people to atheism?!?"

[SidDithers]

56. Barry Lynn is still not a Christian Leader...nt

Sid

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

57. Sez you...(nt)

[blondeatlast]

52. Actually, he was rather specific (and I'm more on your side). He stated

a catholic bishop or rick Warren--and he's got a point. they both can easily get air time. The bishops in my area speak out all the time about political issues--and get on TV.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

55. So if you sufficiently narrow the parameters....

you make it so nobody qualifies. As I've pointed out, Rev. Lynn and now Jim Wallis (through Sojourners, of which he is the publisher) have both spoken out against Robertson's statements.

The simple fact is this: Progressive Christians RARELY get on the major news networks. Other than Lynn and Wallis -- and that's really because of the political nature of what they do -- there are precious few Progressive Christians who get airtime. Jesse Jackson? I'm sure he condemns Robertson -- he's done so in the past. But for the life of me I don't name another Progressive Christian who EVER gets interviewed on the major networks.

[MineralMan]

15. Hi, again...

I went through twenty pages of listings from that Google search. Didn't find any Christian leaders saying anything. Lots of bloggers, though. I'm a really good Googler, and I've been looking for two days now. Still looking...

[Tsar_Bomba]

10. The clegy is to busy cashing their checks to complain about fellow con-man Robertson

[KharmaTrain]

12. Pat's Still Got Blood Diamond Blood On His Hands...

The other night I saw a program about the civil war in Sierra Leone and how the diamond trade was at the heart of the conflict...and also how it was funding Al Queda (show the WTC), but no mention of our own "Tailban" such as Robertson who made a nice profit in his "missionary" work.

The good news is this old fart won't be around much longer to spew his bile upon this realm.

[havocmom]

13. Why all the fuss, he asks? Pat never blames evil doin's among white Christians in the US Bible belt

when a disaster strikes the Bible Belt, ol Pat doesn't come down this hard on white followers who send him checks.

[newspeak]

24. was it Pat who publicly stated that God was punishing NO?

I can't remember if it was Pat or Falwell or one of the other "I'm holy, you're not" blow hards. I do remember thinking that NO drowned because of a MANmade error, the levees. But, it seems that parts of Alabama and Mississippi got hit the hardest by the hurricane, and they are considered the "bible belt." So, it seemed that what the telefool was not saying was that God was more angry at parts of the "bible belt" than NO. :shrug:

[and-justice-for-all]

25. Nothing more than a piece of shit...nt

[whatchamacallit]

30. DU twilight zone

:wtf:

[KittyWampus]

32. #1. The Corporate Media doesn't give a bullhorn to liberal Christians. They explicitly seek out

rightwing Fundies and create the illusion that group defines the entirety of Christian experience.

#2. Liberal Christians believe in Action as a means of practicing Faith. Not adhering to dogma, spouting rhetoric and condemnation and trying to convert. So most Christian pastors are probably busy helping people.

#3. You apparently are totally unaware of the Missions many churches have to help those in need in places like Haiti.

[MineralMan]

37. #2. Christian leaders make the front pages all the time.

Anytime they wish to make a statement, they will get press coverage for it. When they're condemning women's reproductive choice, they make the front page. When they're bashing gays, they make the front page. When they're defending reprehensible behavior by their own ministers, they make the front page.

They have a bully pulpit for their bullshit. Maybe we don't read about their other leadership because they aren't being vocal about it. They're sure as Hell vocal enough otherwise.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

40. This will come as a surprise to Mark Hanson...

Never heard of him? According to you, he has a bully pulpit and CNN should be dashing to his doorstep anytime he wants to make a public utterance.

Step into the spotlight, Mark, we're ready for your close-up!

[MineralMan]

43. My Dear Jeff:

Search Google News for Mark Hanson. As Presiding Bishop of the ELCA, he makes the news frequently. Why do you assume I've never heard of him. Not only have I heard of him, I've heard him speak in person a few times.

You think he doesn't have a bully pulpit? You're quite wrong.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

51. Oh brother...

I just did a Google news search for "Bishop Mark Hanson" and got 50 hits for ALL OF 2009. And if you eliminate the hits from the Minneapolis Star-Tribune (the city where Hanson is from), you have only a handful of entries. Carrot Top has more media exposure - he turned up 481 hits for the same period.

But beyond that, if the Bishop were the go-to guy for the news networks, why haven't I seen his face on my television during the last 48 hours? If he's the media magnet that you seem to think he is, I'm certain that he should be all over CNN, MSNBC, Fox....Where is he? Why aren't the media interviewing their favorite spokesman for protestantism?

[MineralMan]

44. Hanson is widely recognized as one of the top religious newsmakers

in the US:

"In newsmaker of the year voting, Warren beat out: Pope Benedict XVI; Archbishop Robert Duncan, who leads a new theologically conservative Anglican church; Jim Wallis, Sojourner's editor and outspoken advocate for social justice issues; and Mark Hanson, presiding bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America throughout its long debate on ordaining gay clergy."

http://cjonline.com/life/2009-12-25/obamas_speech_top_religion_story

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

53. This is a joke, right?

Widely recognized by Phil Anderson, writing for the Topeka Capitol Journal and as selected by an online poll of the members of the Religious Newswriters Association.

:rofl:

Yes. If you're "widely recognized" in Topeka, you're pretty much a household name.

Quick! Who's the Mayor of Topeka!

I don't know either.

[MineralMan]

60. Again, go to Google News and type in his name...

That's what I did.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

61. Dude, give up....

While I'm sure the Bishop would appreciate your attempts to make him into a Celebrity Theologian (come to think of it, I don't think he would), your efforts are becoming more and more absurd.