Did you know that a CA proposition AGAINST civil rights for AAs actually passed in 1964?

[Nikki Stone1]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-cap14-2010jan14,0,7693933.column

Prop. 8 backers' procreation argument doesn't ring true
By George Skelton
Capitol Journal
January 14, 2010

....And admittedly I didn't pay much attention to the Proposition 8 campaign in 2008 when voters reinstated the ban on same-sex marriage, six months after the California Supreme Court had ruled that a previous ban approved in 2000 violated the state Constitution. I figured it was a gut vote for most people. ...

....The ballot argument focused heavily on "the outrageous decision of four activist Supreme Court judges who ignored the will of the people" in overturning the original 2000 ban on gay marriage.

What the electorate has joined together, let no court put asunder?

Nonsense. The voters sometimes get it wrong. One example: In 1964, Californians voted to continue racial discrimination in the sale and rental of housing. They passed Prop. 14, an initiative that repealed legislation banning the bigotry. Fortunately, the Supreme Court overturned the voters' will. Today, no sane person would think of advocating racial discrimination in real estate.

Sometimes the will of the voters is NOT sacrosanct: the larger civil rights issues take precedence, just as they do in gay marriage.

Prop 8, like Prop 14 in 1964, will be overturned.

[Nikki Stone1]

1. kicking so the argument will not get lost.

:kick:

[lsewpershad]

62. Agreed

K&R so it doesn't

[VMI Dem]

2. I wonder if President Obama would have supported the states deciding in that case?

[Nikki Stone1]

3. The 1964 one?

I don't know. I do know that it, like Prop 8, needed to be overturned.

[Nikki Stone1]

4. I love how people are unrec'ing for civil rights.

I guess we have a lot of RW trolls on board today.

[meegbear]

5. Two words "Supreme Court" ...

Since Roberts and Alito were voted in, I don't see lightning striking twice, especially if Prop 8 supporters win. If so, they'll just turn down the case.

Sorry to be the pessimist, but anything that doesn't adhere to right-wing values will not get justice with them.

[joeybee12]

13. I just wonder if Scalia or one of the other nuts might surprise us since

Olsen is involved?

[Nikki Stone1]

24. I can't imagine Scalia surprising anyone--unless Biden learns how to duck hunt.

:)

[Nikki Stone1]

14. That worries me too.

I sometimes wonder if this co-opting of the cause by the likes of Ted Olson is an attempt to destroy it.

[joeybee12]

6. This is why we have a court system...to keep us from the tyranny of

"the people."

[Nikki Stone1]

8. Exactly.

Because the majority isn't always right.

[joeybee12]

15. Letting the majority always decided is simply mob rule...n/t

[Nikki Stone1]

17. The founders were very afraid of that.

Mobs bring witch hunts.

[Nikki Stone1]

26. People forget that sometimes.

That's why the founders put so many layers in this government.

[saracat]

7. Who the heck would unrec this? Maybe they just don't want to believe voters ever get it wrong?

This will be overturned.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saracat]

10. I think that many haven't even read it.They assume it is a slam against AA's. They just don't read.

[Nikki Stone1]

16. 1964 should be a giveaway here that I'm making a civil rights argument

Sigh. :(

[Nikki Stone1]

35. It seems that the message is getting through to some.

There's just no excuse for bigotry.

[Zhade]

51. Bigots.

NT!

[saracat]

11. K+R

[Solly Mack]

12. K&R

[foxfeet]

18. K&R

[struggle4progress]

19. California has a long history of discrimination: IIRC, persons of Oriental descent were

were forbidden to own property until the mid 20th century, when the courts began to quash the old laws

[joeybee12]

20. And the farmers in calif were the movers and shakers behind interring the Japanese

in WWII, mainly to get the land.

[Nikki Stone1]

22. To get the land.

Yep. A long sordid history this state has on discrimination. Prop 8 is just the latest version.

[Nikki Stone1]

21. Exactly.

From the 19th century onward, the discrimination against Asians was horrific. Can you imagine a prop now against Asian housing?

[LooseWilly]

31. Ahhh... the Yellow Menace

Good Times ...


:sarcasm: (in case it wasn't painfully obvious)

[Nikki Stone1]

32. It actually caused certain "Gentlemen's Agreements" between American presidents

and China and Japan. I am reading about the Japanese agreement now. Teddy Roosevelt, who was afraid of a war with Japan at the time, couldn't get California on board, so he made an agreement with Japan that upper class Japanese--merchants, scholars, etc.--would be allowed in, while the poor and working class Japanese would not be. The chief issue in California was, surprise, the Japanese taking American jobs. American companies were guilty as sin, of course, but, especially in the San Francisco area, it was very, very bad for working class Japanese.

[Jamastiene]

29. I remember reading somewhere that Asian people were used

in gold mining in very unethical ways as well. It's atrocious.

[Nikki Stone1]

30. Yes. The railroad work was also deadly.

I have been reading some material on immigration in California for something I am writing, and there is a huge portion of about the abuse of Asian immigrants.

[Hekate]

60. Chinese laborers built the RR from the West, and Irish from the East. It was a man-killing job...

... especially for the Chinese laborers, due to the rugged mountains they had to blast through.

The Irish did most of their dying building the Erie Canal in the 1820s, when they were considered a great deal more expendable than the slaves the builders first thought of renting from the South.

Those were great engineering feats though.

Hekate
(and yes, I'm Irish)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcontinental_railroad
1863-1869
> The main workers on the Union Pacific were many ex-army veterans and Irish emigrants while most of the engineers etc. were ex-army men who had learned their trade keeping the trains running during the Civil War. The Central Pacific, facing a labor shortage in the labor short West, relied on Chinese laborers who did prodigious work building the line over and through the Sierra Nevada mountains and then across Nevada to a meeting in Utah.
> The transcontinental railroad is considered one of the greatest American technological feats of the 19th century—surpassing the building of the Erie Canal in the 1820s and the crossing of the Isthmus of Panama by the Panama Railroad in 1855. It served as a vital link for trade, commerce and travel that joined the eastern and western halves of late 19th century United States.

[Caliman73]

38. Yep

I think every minority group has been discriminated against in my state at one time, and even today. Even poor whites were discriminated against during the 1930's immigration due to the Dustbowl. Interracial marriage was illegal until 1948. For the reputation that California gets as a liberal state, it has a pretty ugly history regarding civil rights.

[Nikki Stone1]

39. +1

/

[Iggo]

23. We also passed Prop 187 in 1994....

....that would've denied helth care, education, and welfare to undocumented immigrants.

That one didn't pass constitutional muster either.

[Nikki Stone1]

28. I remember that. I signed a petition against the prop saying that I would not

follow it as law if passed. It got torn apart in court.

[Iggo]

33. Made Pete Wilson look like an idiot, too.

In fact, I still have a campaign button from 2000 that says "Bush: Peor que Wilson".

EDITED to add: It means "Bush: Worse than Wilson"

[Nikki Stone1]

34. Yes it did.

Wilson backed it because it was popular among the GOP in CA. He knew damned well that it couldn't withstand constitutional muster--or corporate greed.

[Spheric]

25. K&R...

A point that needs to be remembered.

[laughingliberal]

27. k & r n/t

[salguine]

36. WHAT THE F--K IS AN "AA"? Can't anyone write a sentence without acronyms any more?

[Nikki Stone1]

37. Space issues.

@---->

[salguine]

45. You're not gonna tell me, are you.

[Hekate]

46. Spc in subj lines is limited.Contxt & following txt explns. LOL.nt

[Nikki Stone1]

47. Tnx.

:)

[winyanstaz]

61. I just wanted to tell you Hekate....that I have noticed your posts...

and I recognise that you are a very nice, kind and caring human being :).

[Hekate]

64. Aww

:blush: Thank you.

[MadHound]

40. Yup, as much as Californians would like to believe otherwise,

Their state isn't the liberal mecca that it's portrayed as. California has had some of the most vile politicians in our history, and some of the most vile laws and actions of anywhere in the US.

[Nikki Stone1]

44. Yes. People seem to forget that.

Somewhere along the line, there was a perceptual shift.

[dysfunctional press]

41. why do alcoholics in a 12-step program need special civil rights...?

aren't they covered under the ada now?

[Nikki Stone1]

43. @--->------

:)

[tbyg52]

42. K&R

:patriot:

[greeneyedboy]

48. k & r

Huh. Interesting.

Hopefully Perry v. Schwarzenegger will render the entire issue moot when Prop 8 is ruled an unconstitutional violation of the 14th amendment, akin to Amendment 2 in Romer v. Evans.

[Zhade]

49. Excellent find! It supports my view that our struggle is just like the struggle for AA equality.

Both situations have involved a group of people being wrongly oppressed through the centuries for an inborn trait.

And like our brothers and sisters that prevailed, someday we too shall overcome.

Keep fighting!

[Nikki Stone1]

53. Yep.

:)

[gleaner]

50. I remember that ...

I volunteered as a young Democrat to help in the campaign against it. I was about 15 years old and like a lot of other people I worked very hard to make it fail. When it passed we were heartbroken. That was also when I was kicked by a Nazi as I was walking into a concert to raise money for opposition to Prop 14 at the Hollywood Bowl. They were all over the place in various permutations of Nazi uniforms carrying picket signs. My boyfriend went berserk and ran toward a really big one yelling, "I'm a Jew. Come get me pig." The Nazi tried to bash in his head with the picket sign, I tried to grab it so I would still have a boyfriend with a head, and the Nazi kicked me in the gut. Hard. A policeman finally broke it up and took him away. I went in with a very sore abdomen and enjoyed the concert.

I want Prop 8 to be overturned very much. I would even let one of its supporters kick me in the gut, if it would help. ;) I think it will be overturned though. Justice is long overdue on this.

[Zhade]

52. I love your courage. Thank you for that story.

: )

[Nikki Stone1]

55. @--->------ .... @--->------

:)

[defendandprotect]

54. It should be illegal to propose or legislate any taking of rights from any group . . .

The ONLY legal propositions should involve EXPANDING rights --

[Zhade]

58. According to the Constitution and Bill of Rights, it is.

NT!

[defendandprotect]

73. Glad WE agree . . . !!!

:)

[donheld]

56. I was not aware of that

thank you for this

[Unvanguard]

57. Prop. 8 will be overturned by the voters, eventually. Probably not by SCOTUS. n/t

[Hassin Bin Sober]

59. K&R

[PatSeg]

63. These ballot initiatives in California are

an inefficient way to govern. Having lived in CA for eight years, I haven't found one person who thinks this is an appropriate way to pass laws. The advertisements and fliers that accompany these propositions are confusing and often intentionally misleading. The average voter does not have the time or inclination to research every proposition that shows up on the ballot, so often just votes with his/her gut feeling.

I want an initiative to end ballot initiatives and let our legislators do the job we've elected them to do.

[Hekate]

65. I completely agree. Unfortunately it would take a constitutional amendment here.

The citizen initiatives may have been a viable idea when the state had a much, much smaller population, but it long ago simply began to hamper the ability of the elected government to get the job done. As it is now the group with the most money and energy (often negative energy) can get a proposition on the ballot and convince people to vote for it.

Hekate

[PatSeg]

68. When we first moved here,

we were very conscientious voters, reading all the information about the initiatives so we could make an informed choice. As you well know, that isn't an easy thing to do, as both sides can be very convincing. Finally a lawyer told my son, just vote 'no' on any proposition as they were put on the ballot by special interests with a lot of money behind them. It seems to me, if we could get the majority of people to consistently vote 'no', then maybe special interest groups will quit financing them.

[Hekate]

69. I finally decided the same thing, but it took me more than 20 years to figure it out.

I pretty much vote No on everything now, unless the local Independent (weekly paper much better than the daily by a mile) gives a strong recommendation to something that it makes sense to try to support.

Hekate

[PatSeg]

70. We have the Sac Bee here

When I'm in doubt I check out what the Sac Bee has to say. I don't always agree with them, but they are a lot easier to understand than the propaganda the special interests put out.

[8 track mind]

66. Wasn't RayGun governor at the time? n/t

[Hekate]

71. No. Pat Brown was still in office until the next election. nt

[8 track mind]

72. Thanx n/t

[Nikki Stone1]

75. not yet.

.

[varelse]

67. Yes, that is the reason for the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights

The founders of our nation were well aware of the possibility of a simple majority of voters "getting it wrong" from time to time.

[Nikki Stone1]

74. Spot on.

.