Two words about Haiti (and Katrina). Air Drops.....

[Boxerfan]

WTF people...I remember watching troops receive their supplies via parachuted crates of cargo. Jeeps,generators-whatever.

It really bothered me during Katrina that this technique was not utilized. It could have saved many lives.

Now we have semi competent people in charge or so I hope. So why the heck are we not doing airdrops 24/7. I mean right frigging now no waiting for distribution or other logistical roadblocks. prevent chaos by making sure there are leaflets & anouncements...

Is it really that hard to figure out how to get life giving supplies to people?.

[malaise]

1. Air drops or human chains

Both work

[ret5hd]

2. I've had the same thought.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Air drops will most likely kill people

getting air drops on troops, which is extremely dangerous, usually has a somewhat large area to avoid an oops.

They could do this only if they had the people to secure the LZ.

Now human chains do work.

[The Wielding Truth]

4. I am totally stunned that those methods are not being used.

[PacerLJ35]

22. Air drops aren't that easy

As stated before, it will likely result in a lot of damaged equipment and supplies, and perhaps even injuries or deaths. It's not as simple as simply kicking stuff out the back, and requires quite a bit of rigging prior to flying out with that. Additionally, you'd need qualified crews to do that, and most of the aircraft flying into Haiti aren't even close to being qualified to perform airdrops.

[Oilwellian]

40. I gather....

you're not aware of the C130's drop capabilities?

[PacerLJ35]

41. I fly C-130s

so yes, I know their airdrop capabilities.

[stray cat]

5. Air drops where? In the middle of people or in the country where no one can get?

on top of the rubble? There is no gas to drive anywhere; there is no law or distribution to keep people from killing others to get it and hoarding it and selling it on the black market. Who in your family would you sell to save the rest?

[Boxerfan]

7. Clear a field & start dropping...As I said leaflet the area

Better than dying of thirst or for the want of medical supplies.

[PacerLJ35]

27. Airdrop is a fairly risk-intensive effort

It results in broken supplies, possible injuries or deaths, and requires a new supply trail and the equipment to do it with.

[The Wielding Truth]

29. That's an answer.

[PacerLJ35]

30. It's not that simple

[Javaman]

49. If there is enough organization to clear a field, then there is enough organization

to truck the supplies in.

As the pilot of the C-130 up thread stated, It's not that easy.

People on the ground get killed and nothing ever drops on target except in the movies.

[The Wielding Truth]

6. What about a helicopter with water and hoses to tubs on the ground.

[FrenchieCat]

8. Air drop in a mountainous area which is densely populated

would be stupid, especially right after an earthquake.

Can you imagine someone getting killed risking their lives trying to reach some supplies dropped somewhere unreachable, like in the water or atop of a mountain, or on top of a destroyed building?
or fighting for food with someone else?
Or worse yet, some assholes get the supplies and starts selling them...
or someone gets smashed by something dropping from the sky,

Thank God you're not in charge. :eyes:


Haiti is the most mountainous country of the Caribbean, however it does have three plains which were once quite fertile. It also has four mountain chains. I want to try to give you some idea where the mountain chains are and where the plains are.

http://learninglatinamerica.wikispaces.com/CaribbeanGeography?f=print

[Hannah Bell]

55. the primary damage, & 20% of the population, is in & around port au prince.

it's possible to disagree without being disagreeable.

[MineralMan]

9. Folks, There's an airport.

It's been two days. Supplies are coming in, as is equipment to handle pallets, etc. We are not seeing every detail on the TV. I saw a military forklift this evening, which came in on a US cargo plane.It takes time. In the time to do one of those field airdrops, 10 planes are landing.

Trust me, the military knows how to move and handle supplies and the equipment needed to handle them. Everyone needs to calm down and realize that none of us is seeing everything that is happening. This is all proceeding as quickly as possible and even more quickly than is usually possible.

Anyone who believes they can do better should get on a plane and head for Port au Prince. Either that or let the experts handle it.

[valerief]

10. It's like the same people are running the world. They just have new servants. nt

[KittyWampus]

25. care to explain that comment?

[dysfunctional press]

11. they are afraid of anarchy, is how they explainesd it on the news...

people would be fighting for the limited amount of supplies that could be delivered that way.

[silverweb]

12. I heard they'd be using helicopters.

Did that change?

[spanone]

18. tomorrow...aircraft carrier...12 helicopters...two onboard hospitals

[silverweb]

21. Excellent.

Thank you for the update. :)

[blondeatlast]

13. You do realize that air drops weigh hundreds of pounds? That trapped people

could easily be crushed by a drop?

You do realize that incredibly well-trained and smart people are on the ground to set up distribution routes?

[northzax]

14. is it really that hard?

yes, actually, it is. luckily, there are very competent people who do this for a living.

how would leaflets and announcements help prevent chaos? I don't get that part. can you explain further?

[blondeatlast]

17. My best guess is that they presumably would reassure the victims

that aid is coming.

[Boxerfan]

15. Unrec'd to zero...WTF over?

And I do think people can learn to clear an area. And you could save more than you would ever hurt.

[PacerLJ35]

28. You're assuming the stuff you airdrop doesn't get damaged/destroyed

[neverforget]

38. and goes to where it is supposed too....the wind is a factor too.

[PacerLJ35]

39. That's not as much a factor as you think it might be

Minimum DZ sizes are tied to the type of chute (ie, how accurate the chute is) and load, plus the drop altitude. Winds are generally measured as a ballistic wind used by older C-130s, or a combination of altitude winds and surface winds for newer C-130s and C-17s. The computer (or navigator, depending on how old the airplane is) will generate a CARP (Computed Air Release Point), and the airplane will fly to the CARP and execute the drop. The green (drop) light stays on as long as there's usable drop zone.

Typically loads go off DZ if the crew somehow screws up, or if there's a load malfunction (which happens more often than desired). But done right (and planned right), wind isn't a problem.

[blondeatlast]

47. Who is going to clear it??? The victims? Are you really reading

people's replies?

Geez.

[ljm2002]

16. Yes to that!

The minute the helicopters are in range, start blanketing the place with food, water, and medical supplies. Give the living what they need to survive now. It seems that air drops are the answer to the immediate survival needs.

[TornadoTN]

19. Airdrops aren't as easy as they seem

I would like to see them utilized, but from what I've been told, there's a lot of thought that goes into these situations. First, you can't just drop into the middle of a devastated city unless an area has been cleared. Second, issues of distribution arise and whether it actually gets to the people that need it most. Third, dropping a large, heavy pallet onto unstable structure is a possibility and could make a situation worse.

The best thing at this point, at least from what I've heard, is that helicopters and relief trucks start making their way into the city for coordinated distribution. Right now, it's still a rescue operation so that's probably their first priority.

[PacerLJ35]

23. Things needed to make airdrops a reality

- A surveyed DZ (drop zone) that is well clear of civilian structures, and preferably well clear of civilians period...they have a tendency to rush the DZ when they see stuff being airdropped and get crushed by the pallets

- If the stuff is dropped by a C-17 or C-130J, the DZ must be surveyed with at least a lat/long and DZ size (ie, leading edge to trailing edge, DZ elevation, PI elevation, leading edge to the PI, and so on)...if they don't have that info they can't drop.

- Qualified airdrop crews. This isn't so easy...some of the USAF crews are airdrop qualified, especially the C-130 crews. But the vast majority of the other aircraft involved aren't.

- Transportation of cargo from the DZ. If you eventually do find a suitable DZ, you have to have equipment on hand to load it up and transport it to where it's needed. They are short of that at the airport, so I can't imagine they'd have what's needed at some DZ in the middle of nowhere.

[defendandprotect]

20. Especially since the port is closed . . .. relief shipments are blocked... only military ....

is delivering --

I know Jewish shipments of relief are stopped -- the military says only stuff going in

will be stuff they are delivering. Whether they're going to move the privately raised stuff

as well, I don't know?

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Those supplies will go in after the port comes back on line

a week at most after the Navy gets there.

And why military? Do you know of many civilian planes that can do air refueling?

It's not a conspiracy, it is capabilities.

[defendandprotect]

43. You're overreacting in defense of government and military . . .

I commented on the Jewish relief shipments because I happen to know about

them and that they are blocked by military right now. Eventually, military

might deliver some of their stuff? I don't know.

That's what I indicated and that's all --

However, as for an overall conspiracy by US government and CIA it is undeniable --

and needless to say going on for a hundred years or more? If not longer!

OTOH . . . would we want Blackwater flying food into Haiti?

What else might they be doing there?


AND, we might also ask, how many might be dead of starvation or thirst by the time

the "port comes back on line" --

They need airlifts!

[PacerLJ35]

45. Hmmmm, that's not the general story I've heard

I know people who've flown down there and they told me MTPP is chock full of all types of aircraft, military and civilian. Perhaps the shipment you refer to got held up for some reason or another, but the military isn't blocking access to Haiti to military-only shipments and personnel

[defendandprotect]

54. My husband works in shipping . . . so I'm telling you the facts ...

this happens to be cargo from a Jewish charity --

two different shipments --

Therefore, you're quite wrong --

[PacerLJ35]

57. Then explain why my good friend told me about all the civil aircraft at the airport

if it's for military only?

[defendandprotect]

59. Are we both talking about the same subject -- ???

I am saying to you shipments are blocked -- military is only one delivering cargo

these people were told. They may at some point get some help from military to deliver

it in ships.

Now . . . what does this have to do with planes?

If you're talking about cargo drops by planes, this stuff would be unlikely for it--

it's in containers.

[PacerLJ35]

71. No, I'm saying a guy I used to fly with flew a mission into Haiti yesterday

and he said there were airplanes from all over...military, civilian, international...you assert that the military has blocked civilian aid traffic from getting in, and if that's the case you'd expect the airport ramp to be military-only, but it's not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Would it make you feel better that the SEDENA

Secretaria de Defensa Nacional, had two of it's three flights diverted to the Dominican Republic?

Oh those ARE military craft, C-130s.

It is not YOUR flights who are getting diverted, and they are for good reasons.

It is called a BOTTLENECk, JEEZUZ age not everything is a damn fucking conspiracy.

Oh and two DMATs are on the Caicos waiting to be able to get slots.

[cherokeeprogressive]

24. I guess you've never seen footage of hopeless, helpless, and destitute people

fighting for a handful of rice or a bag of flour or a gallon of fresh water.

I think it's a dumb idea.

[Dappleganger]

26. +1

A lot more people will get hurt. I thought somewhere someone mentioned dropping individual survival packets spread out so that there would be less rush to one area (this was either on CNN or MSNBC tonight, was switching between both channels).

[defendandprotect]

44. Right ... there are ways to do it so that it doesn't all land in one place -- !!

[PacerLJ35]

46. If I were planning an airdrop I'd want it to land in one place

Having multiple DZs or scattering the drops over a very large DZ only complicates the logistics. Plus dropping precisely in one spot minimizes risks to people and structures on the ground. That being said, I'm still against the idea of airdropping supplies when MTPP is still operational and ships are enroute with helicopters prepared to perform sealift operations.

[defendandprotect]

53. Smalle rpackages dropped over a wider area -- and circling back again after

those are picked up -- limits the likelihood that all the stuff will be captured

by one or a few individuals - plus, it's lighter, so less damage to anyone or anything.

[PacerLJ35]

58. That's not generally how things are done

The only things that are dropped like that are certain types of meal rations. Everything else has to be put into a CDS container or on an HE platform, and that stuff weighs tons.

[defendandprotect]

60. You're talking about dropping a "container" from a plane?????

I imagine "meal rations" and water are two things the people need urgently --

[PacerLJ35]

72. Yes, we typically drop containers and platforms...in your vast experience

do you feel we are doing it wrong? Look, the meals are best delivered on the runway, where it can be handed out without losing half the meals to damage, disappearing in the rubble, or a number of other issues.

I've done literally hundreds of airdrops...most were for training but I've done a few real ones too. I've been doing this for years, and in every case, it's better to deliver stuff to an airfield versus dropping it. You only drop if there's no other means. When the C-17s dropped food to the Afghans, there were a lot of serious operational issues...Afghans were getting hurt, food was getting lost...when we finally opened up Bagram and a few other LZs in Afghanistan, we stopped dropping supplies to the locals because the risk outweighed the benefits. We continued military airdrops because when troops get ambushed and need ammo, sometimes the only way you can get it to them is to drop a CDS bundle full of bullets. But this is different.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. This is why not

Air drops.

There are several problems with air drops, which are not obvious to people who have never had to deal with them. We did, as training.

Gear tends not to survive the landing, some delicate gear, see not bandages and gauze medical equipment, and even bottles, water bottles... oh IV bags burst nicely.

You need a clear area without people, or the risk of injury to those on the ground is great. This city is more than just a little crowded so finding a relatively flat, and chiefly "safe" LZ... good luck, and you still need people on the ground.

Oh so they could use Emergency Rations.

EMRATS are all but familiar with your target population (and taste like crap, and have a ... different look to them). Also, while they can be dropped on yellow pouches on a small parachute, if the chute fails they will reach terminal velocity and could break a bone or kill. That is why they are mostly used in very isolated areas (like Afghanistan), or as a very last resort. If they cannot get the situation stabilized enough where they can start doing ground distribution they just might, but we are not there yet.

Why does this thing about taste, and look matter? I mean you will eat if hungry enough right? WRONG. And you'd be amazed to know that Logistics also has to consider this little factoid in the food distributed to locals.

[PacerLJ35]

32. Don't forget the recovery equipment to pull the pallets off the DZ

Or you could use CDS, but then you're limited to how much stuff you can drop per bundle. Accuracy can be achieved using HVCDS, but that tends to break a lot of stuff since they use the ring-slot chutes. Dropping CDS using G-12 or G-13 chutes is a better way for more delicate stuff (like medical supplies, etc) but again no guarantees plus you'd have to drop at lower altitudes and have a larger DZ to avoid crushing people. Even a small CDS bundle can weigh 2,200 lbs.

HE pallets (Heavy Equipment) can weigh extraordinary amounts...C-130s can drop up to 42,000 lb HE pallets off the dual-rail system in the airplane...although it's not normal to drop such a heavy pallet...most of the time that kind of load would be a married pallet (ie, two pallets tied together supporting a really large load).

So in any case, you'd have to have something large enough to pick those things up and take them into town. Dropping in town is a big no-no...the USAF would definitely say "no way" to that one. And if you found a suitable DZ outside built up areas, only USAF crews (and a few other NATO countries) have the training to do airdrops.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Trust me I don't forget

but the bare bones should be enough for people to maybe get it.

[PacerLJ35]

34. I can remember one of our airplanes dropped bottled water in Afghanistan

and the bundle came apart as the load exited the airplane, and water bottles went everywhere. The Army wasn't very happy, since they were all running around dodging falling water bottles. Accidents can and do happen during airdrop, as I'm sure you're aware...that's why if the Army (or whoever) has access to an LZ or runway, they'd rather just airland the stuff than airdrop it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. I worked with the Mexican Air Force while training for that disaster operations

so they did a demonstration drop gone wrong with a FAR SMALLER pallet from a helo...

Their pallet had water bottles and a few bags of rice... water bottles burst and we were about 600 yards. Between the wash and the burst, we got soaked... and rice went everywhere. And it wasn't even fully loaded... it was the this is why you do not dick around with this.

To say that I got the point... I have not forgotten it either.

Then they gave us the training to work with the air crews to get them off helos... and of course ground signals and all that.


Oh and the Israelis are also trained in C-130 drops, last time I checked.

[PacerLJ35]

36. When I was advising the Iraqi Air Force...they asked about two weeks before we left

if we could teach them how to do airdrop. My quote exactly to the Iraqi colonel: "Ha! (pause, realizing he was serious) You're kidding, right?"

After I explained to him that it would take far longer than 2 weeks to train any of them how to do airdrop (not to mention that they had ZERO infrastructure to support this...no rigging facilities, no chutes, no JAI personnel), and telling him that they would HAVE to train in the US, he then resigned, sighed, and said "do you have any pamphlets we can read about it so we can teach ourselves?"

God, I hope they never try that. Not only will they kill someone on the ground, they'll probably wind up getting a load stuck in the rails with extraction chutes dragging behind and lose an entire airplane.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. You know it LOOKS easy

...

Even working with choppers in that capacity, using heavy lift nets and hooks looks easy. Hardest physical work I did in a long time.

And we were set as oh tertiary... yes guys we will use you if you are the only ones on the ground, and so help me god.

And to be honest, I didn't feel insulted. Risked my life enough doing OTHER shit.

[The Wielding Truth]

48. You mean that there are no trained rescuers that we could send?

If I were down in the dying and desparate I would hope that someone would reassure me. Does anyone know if pamphlets are being droped that could tell of rescue plans, or is that unreasonable,too?

[PacerLJ35]

50. Every USAF C-130 crew is airdrop trained

But that doesn't mean it's a smart idea. There's a reason why the military only resorts to airdrop when there's no other option available.

Using one or more aircraft for leaflet drops would be a waste of a flight. Properly managed and run, MTPP can handle quite a bit of traffic...and you won't destroy half of the supplies trying to drop it.

[defendandprotect]

62. Are there any reports of getting fresh water distribution re-established on the island?

Wouldn't that be the easiest way???

Piping it to the areas where the people are congregated?

Any discussion of this?

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. No water bottles burst

but there are now water stations starting to crop up, run by UN, US 82nd and a slew of other groups.

I read NOT just the US press... so I am getting an INTERNATIONAL look into this... and quite frankly I am impressed. Things are getting a little better every day, and once the heavy lift fully gets going, well help will get everywhere.

[defendandprotect]

64. Not "water bottles" .... whatever the usual source of their fresh water on the island . . .

RE-ESTABLISHING IT ....

isn't anyone discussing what the proplems are?

Or trying to pipe water in???

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Water stations in disasters use water bottles

we are STILL in the RESCUE phase.

You are talking of RECOVERY PHASE... knowing how this works, this will not start at the earliest two weeks into this... week and a half we we are lucky and have the engineers

[defendandprotect]

69. Hauling water in by ships and planes . . . vs checking the available native resources?

Water can be piped much faster than it can be brought in --

Pesume someone has been surveying this and it is probably impossible --

but would be interesting to know.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. It is not the US... so there are very few, if any actual pipelines

most water in the third world, (and we should do that in some first world places) is bottled water anyway, if you want safe water.

By ship, what is coming is not actual water, but desalinization and purification plans. For example the Vinson is making water already, and when her escorts catch up, some can make water... I know for a fact that the Mexican Navy is bringing stand alone units as well.

[PacerLJ35]

73. It's also got to be clean water

piping in any source could potentially spread water-borne diseases...one reason why disaster teams tend to stick with bottled sources. In the long run, they may very well get a water purification unit set up, but that'll take a lot longer than those people have. What's the point of setting up water pipes from a local source that might be tainted with cholera?

[defendandprotect]

74. Can only hope that someone manages to move the water issue along for the

benefit of all Haitians ...

ALL Hatians drink bottled water -- wow!

[butterfly77]

51. This is what my friends and I are wondering..

I remember I believe it was the tsuanmi when they used helicopters to do air drops. It seems as though a lot of them are afraid and won't do anything until they the marines are on the ground. I haven't kept up with the coverage but that seems to be the problem.

[-..__...]

52. What could possibly go wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRhFRGzh0s0&feature=fvw

I happened to have served 4 years in the 82nd myself, and had witnessed several OMFG incidents involving heavy drops.

Fortuantly, no one was ever injured that I'm aware of (at least not as a direct result of the drop. Individual paratrooper injuries were quite common however).

It's worth noting that in both the video and my personal experiences, the drops were conducted under strictly controlled and supervised conditions, and on well established drop zones and accidents still happened.

[ddeclue]

56. I'm afraid you're pretty ignorant of the facts..

Supply drops have been used such as the Germans did at Gumrak Air Field in World War II, or we did in the Berlin Air Lift or in the Seige at Khe Sahn (although the Germans could not move enough supplies to sustain their army) BUT there has to be a way to get those supplies from an airfield to those who need them.

You can't simply air drop pallets of supplies into a high density urban landscape because it will kill more people than it helps. Supplies will end up broken up when they hit buildings, cars and people. Go to Google Earth and take a look at Port au Prince and tell me where you'd like to air drop the supplies. All the clear spaces such as the soccer field and market squares are being occupied by refugees who have built make shift camps.

The problem in New Orleans was compounded by the flooding. What was the military supposed to do? Drop supplies into the nasty water and hoped they floated? Well they don't. It would have been a total waste to do so.

In Haiti, you could start sling load carrying those supplies in by helo but they will still need to clear some LZ's and this means getting people to move off the cleared areas and making sure that there is no debris or wires to entangle the helicopters. It also means there needs to be on the ground security to insure that supplies are handed out in a fair manner and that they don't spark a riot or stampede to get those supplies.

The best thing that could be done would be to start evacuating refugees from Port au Prince to Guantanamo, Havana, the Dominican Republic, Miami and New York and evacuate the city as was basically done with New Orleans until the engineers and disaster recovery folks can un-rubble the place, bury the bodies and restore (or in many cases ESTABLISH) basic services (water, electricity, telephone, sewer, hospitals, police, and fire) so that people can safely return.

Longer term the country needs electrification with free electricity, water and sewer services for its citizens, paved roads brought up to standards and most of the structures in Port au Prince need to be razed for safety reasons and re-built to a much higher structural code that meets the earthquake standards in California and the hurricane standards in Florida.

[vadawg]

66. dude how many americans get free electricity?????

and do we the US taxpayer have to pay for the haitians to get free electricity...

[Barack_America]

65. Even if the supplies managed to be dropped in without killing people...

...the chances are too high that the supplies would be taken over by violent gangs, further destabilizing the already precarious political situation in the country.

[Nikki Stone1]

68. The Turks are actually helping

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#34887037


USAID gumming up the works. Terry Sanders doesn't get the delay either, and he is on the ground in Haiti.

[gulliver]

75. I don't doubt that people actually working this in real life...

...know those two words. I have a lot of faith in people who do this work.

Anderson Cooper dealt with the air drops issue on CNN from Haiti. Air drops can result in deaths as people struggle over them.

I have no problem imagining a gang of thugs grabbing every air dropped box as it reaches the ground and running off with it. The weak and afflicted, who need the aid most, would be the losers.

[spanone]

76. oy