If you were a Democrat running for office, would you be for or against HCR as it looks today?

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

Would it make a difference if you were DLC or a old fashioned liberal?

If I were running for office as the liberal I am I would say that I honestly couldn't support it in it's present form. It does not have enough in ways of controlling costs, it does not negotiate drugs or import them, and it retains too much that is bad for too long.

I would suggest breaking the bill up into smaller more digestible pieces.

The bill I would put on the table: cover the uninsured by opening Medicare up to them with subsidies if needed. This would be considered a temporary stopgap measure undertaken in order to save lives. Simultaneously I would repeal the Bush tax cuts.

I don't really see how anyone could argue against using an already existing system to cover those who are at risk of actually dying due to lack of coverage especially if you present it as temporary.


The second bill I would offer is a special medical bankruptcy bill that would allow Americans who have accumulated more than 50% of their annual income in deductables, co-pays and out-of pockets for essential life saving treatments and/or drugs to discharge those expenses without further ado and without putting any of their other assets at risk. We are the ONLY country that punishes people with bankruptcy if they get ill. As far as I am concerned, people can declare medical bankruptcy every year. Providers can make application for payment from a Medical Loss Recovery Fund. I would fund this with a tax on the pre-bonus profits of both the insurance and pharma industries.Providers could only recoup from a schedule of acceptable costs.

Then I would say, now lets go back to the drawing board and start talking about some REAL reform. We'll discuss the Dutch model vs the single payer system. Those seem to be the 2 that work and we don't need to reinvent the wheel to preserve a "uniquely American" malfunctioning system.

That is what I honestly would tell voters in my personal campaign literature. They would either get it or call me a pinko/commie socialist.

[Deep13]

1. I'd grudgingly support it with a promise to work on improvements in the future.

The reason D.s are sucking wind is because we are doing too little, not too much. If we started out with single payer and stuck to our guns, it may have been reduced to a public option. People would understand that it is a real improvement until the next time the neocon noise machine makes them to scared to support their own interests.

[daa]

2. Folks will NOT fall for fixing it

that never happens and it definitely will not happen to HIR. People wanted health care reform and all they get is a lame ass forced expansion of the existing insurance fraud.

[Deep13]

5. It happened to Social Security.

Anyway, you asked if I was running, not if I could pass whatever I wanted.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. But Social Security was ALWAYS an exclusively public option

It was not a requirement for compulsory salary deductions to be invested in the stock market.

That hypothetical bill (compulsory handing over of money to a private business) is a better analogy for today's health insurance bill than Social Security is.

I know that saying "They fixed Social Security" and "They fixed the Civil Rights Bill" are standard DLC talking points, but they're poorly thought out ones. Neither one required all Americans to hand over huge chunks of money to private businesses.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

16. exactly. That analogy always kills me

HCR would be analygous to SS and Medicare if the funding was tax based and if public options were involved.

I don't know how we got to a plan which was tax-based (fines, mandates, excise taxes - if they are involuntary, to me they all equate into taxes) poured into private for profit companies UNLESS the private companies were regulated and price-controlled out the wazoo like in the Netherlands and Germany. We seemed to have forgotten part 2.

Who can take any bill seriously that doesn't negotiate drug costs across the board and allow importation as a temporary fix?

Notice how the Republicans are saying NOTHING? They WANT this bill to pass so they can use it as a club to beat the Democrats with. They are probably deciding among themselves right now which couple of them will cross the aisle to pass it in case a few Democrats start to crumble. They will reward the ones that do with something nice in the future when they lose their seats due to Tea Baggers or what not.

[dflprincess]

31. Social Security was not "fixed" - it was expanded

The basics of Social Security and the way it works remain the same, it was expanded to cover more people because it worked so well. (Until Reagan came along and cut coverage for some groups.)

Passing a bill as badly flawed as the Insurance Profit Protection act is and claiming it will be "fixed" later is not comparable.

BTW - how are those "fixes" to NAFTA and NCLB working for you?

[laughingliberal]

7. Have to agree

Not sure how we think the bunch who couldn't pass a decent bill with the largest majorities of Democrats we're likely to see for a while are going to 'fix' anything. I expect future changes will make the bill worse.

[Winterblues]

14. What are you talking about, it happens all the time.

Most things get improved over time. Medicare did, Social Security did, Education bills have, In fact more have, than have not...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. What part of "Medicare and SS weren't giveaways to the private sector" don't you understand?

You just repeated the DLC talking point that I refuted up-thread. Gotta come up with a new talking point, DLC strategists. That one isn't working.

As far as education bills are concerned, Obama supports No Child Left Behind and has appointed an education czar who supports vouchers. When is NCLB going to be improved so that it doesn't force teachers to teach to the test instead of inspiring students to become truly educated and intellectually curious?

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

3. I completely agree that the loss of support is due to too little and not too much

Too much watering down and pandering either to the industries or to Snowe and other Republicans who were never going to support it anyway. As to the Blue Dogs, they would have come around to a stronger bill - did they really want to be the DEMS that killed off healthcare? I think not.

I think we got/are getting the bill we were destined to get from the beginning.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. Yeah, just like they've "fixed" NAFTA

If there's a bill that's advantageous to the corporate set, it somehow never gets fixed.

[Deep13]

6. Did you think Bush was going to? nt

[laughingliberal]

8. We've had the majorities in the House and Senate for a while, now

and nary a peep.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. Clinton signed NAFTA in 1993

He was in office till January 2001.

He had eight years to fix the bill and didn't.

[Little Star]

24. Two wrongs don't make a right. n/t

[Craftsman]

9. I would walk away from it running.

It is a bad bill that will bite us in November.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. And I believe that it's deliberate, no matter what the True Believers in Obama say

The corporatists in both parties are in it together.

Republican opposition is all theater. Like Brer Rabbit, they're screaming, "Please don't throw me into that briar patch!"

But deep down, they're chuckling to themselves, because just as Brer Rabbit knows that the briar patch is his best hope for escape, the Republicanites know that people are going to hate this bill and that resentment of it is their best hope for regaining power.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

22. Why are Republicans not mobilizing to defeat it in any way shape or form?

Where are all the Defeat healthcare now ads?

The industries aren't running them because they LOVE the bill.

The Republicans aren't running them because they can hardly wait til this sucker passes.

[peace13]

10. How does it look today?

My take on this is that it is still a fluid document. The biggest problem with this process is that these people 'work' with no deadline and get paid whether they accomplish anything or not. The icing on the cake is that they have the very benefits that they are in the process of denying the American people. Oh and the icing on the icing is that these crooked politicians take money from the corporations that they are dealing with.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. I agree with your approach

I would vote against the current bill. It needs to go down in flames and be EXPOSED (although more people are noticing this anyway) for the steaming pile of cynically named corporate welfare that it is.

Then I would work on passing the few GOOD parts individually, such as funding public health clinics and banning denials and rescissions.

I would possibly draw some Republican votes by saying that until the feds get their act together, the states should act as laboratories for reform. (I say this knowing that California, Minnesota, and possibly other states have active single-payer movements underway.)

After that, I would get interested parties together to fund a nationwide advertising campaign featuring, for example, actual immigrants from companies with universal health care. ("I moved here from______ five years ago, and while I mostly like living in America, I really miss the health care system back home...")

I'd enlist the aid of people who have personal experience with foreign medical care to write op-eds for their local papers and to call in to talk shows.

In other words, I'd ask single-payer advocates to take control of the discussion.

[Nancy Boy]

15. No

From what I understand, I could not support the bill. Not only because of what it does not do, but what kind of message it sends. Both the workings and the message are important to me and right now all it does is tell people to make do, to defer to people in power (of wealth), to not rock the boat and be thankful for what you get; to continue betting on the future (even though we've seen the downside to betting just recently).

Health care isn't a product. It's not car parts or magazines; it's not land or automobiles. It's one of the requirements for anything. A person sick, a person dying, a person dead, hurts everything from the economy to private life. Without liberty, without health, without happiness, we're all screwed. The Democratic Party needs to send the message that health care, that human welfare, is a right given to all humanity by virtue of existence (or, God given). To compromise is to show the world that it is only a whim, a belief that can be countered. And human rights should NOT be counterable for any reason.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

17. A warm welcome to you!

Lives and healthcare are commodities in the US. We are devolving if possible from the beautiful and true sentiments that you express.

[mdmc]

18. I would be for it

you play the hand you are dealt..

[ThomWV]

19. I would run against it as a Sellout - and I'd win my election.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

20. That case is just too easy to make.

And this is the hand we have dealt the Republicans for the future.

People are mad at the Progressives on this board for "whining" about how bad the bill is. The DUers mad at us can take comfort, because no one has paid any attention to us alarmists anyway.

When the Dems get hammered in future elections for a bill that they alone crafted and passed along with some "negotiating" help from the White House, who is going to get the blame?

The Republicans will excuse their part in the passage by saying they were defeated by a misguided Democratic juggernaut that "crammed" a crappy bill through Congress. The mandates alone are all they need to inflame their base and independents.

I personally will take absolutely NO happiness or pride in saying "I told you so". Yes, it will be a historic bill. The way it was crafted and how the end game plays out will be a political case study for years and years to come.

[newspeak]

28. I'd be against the bill

Y'all remember *'s attempt to funnel social security money to Wall Street? The people went crazy (except those who believe in the free market golden goose). I'd say * was attempting to give his pals a large some of our money to bolster the market before he left town. To me, this is another bailout for another industry that is going to further tax the wrong people. Anyway, I'd hold out for a very strong public option--I'd tell them that I'd only vote for it only if there is a very strong public option (not a weak, diluted option).

[Little Star]

23. If I were running in MA, I'd run against it. Seems like that

would be the only way to win. This horrible HCR bill is killing Coakley, pure and simple. I live here, I talk to other people who voted for her in the primary. They didn't like Capuano because he was originally for this HCR bill before he was against it. They hate this bill for all different reasons that the republicans do. They hate it non the less! They are pissed at her flip flop and we/MA are probably going to pay the price! Who twisted her arm to flip?????????????? This race is a referendum on this sucky HC bill. Blame those who forced her to flip! She had it right before they got to her. Obama and his bill are toxic in this state. Gawd help us. One little trip to a senior center could tell anyone, who had a desire to hear, they are pissed. Those seniors vote, someone might want to listen to their complaints. Women here are beyond pissed about the abortion clause, they are the ones who work the back end of campaigns and the phones. Social Independents are pissed about all the spending yet not much on social issues, we have a shit load of them here in MA. Almost all Dems and Independents here hate the insurance industry and don't like our president cutting deals with them behind closed doors. Yep, lots of pissed off people in MA who will just stay home.

I personally want this bill dead! That said, I still don't want to see Martha Coakley lose here in MA. I have been trying to get people to see that her loss will not kill the bill. I have been trying to tell them that we here in MA will suffer greatly if the nude center fold wins. They are to pissed at this administration, president and both houses of congress. Pray (or whatever you do) for us we are going to need it here in Massachusetts.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

25. Wow! lots of insight.

So you reallly think that MA is a referendum on HCR? And you seem to think that most are against it based on what they've heard up to now? Not a good sign.

[Little Star]

29. I hear the same things over and over again from life long Dems!

[AuntPatsy]

26. I would not support anything until I was able to read in it's entirety the final version and then

and only then would I determine my vote...

what I find worrisome is the very real threat that it can be altered in the last moments disallowing any real time frame for a proper review...

But what I would state as often as humanely possible in as many cameras faces that are going out to the people how the republicans have offered nothing on this bill that would improve the current hardships all average american citizens are now facing and will in the future face..I would ensure my colleagues as well as myself would shout from the highest hilltops those that have pushed through certain reforms that in no way shape or form would be a life saving life altering addition needed for the average citizen...

we need for all of our Dem's to step up to the curb as have those like Dean, Grayson, Bernie, Dennis, etc, etc etc...there are many more though some names not as well known but if you note they are all Dem's, no republicans to speak of will dare go against their hungry for more masters, none to date have proven themselves capable

And Paul does not count since he has proven himself uncaring of womens rights or for all citizens civil rights to be a value in this country...

as I have stated, not one conservative voting republican official or non official offers anything more than more of the same and we have already cemented proof that more of the same can and will only cause more damage...

[Cleita]

27. I'm with you. I couldn't support it. n/t

[SandWalker1984]

30. Here's the Dems future - latest poll in MA senate race, Republican could win

If the Democrats in Congress go ahead and pass the horrible Senate version of so called health care reform, which rewards insurance corporations and punishes Americans, then THIS IS their future:

Poll shocker: Scott Brown surges ahead in Senate race
By Jessica Van Sack
Friday, January 15, 2010

Riding a wave of opposition to Democratic health-care reform, GOP upstart Scott Brown is leading in the U.S. Senate race, raising the odds of a historic upset that would reverberate all the way to the White House, a new poll shows.

Although Brown’s 4-point lead over Democrat Martha Coakley is within the Suffolk University/7News survey’s margin of error, the underdog’s position at the top of the results stunned even pollster David Paleologos.

“It’s a Brown-out,” said Paleologos, director of Suffolk’s Political Research Center. “It’s a massive change in the political landscape.”

The poll shows Brown, a state senator from Wrentham, besting Coakley, the state’s attorney general, by 50 percent to 46 percent, the first major survey to show Brown in the lead. Unenrolled long-shot Joseph L. Kennedy, an information technology executive with no relation to the famous family, gets 3 percent of the vote. Only 1 percent of voters were undecided.

Paleologos said bellwether models show high numbers of independent voters turning out on election day, which benefits Brown, who has 65 percent of that bloc compared to Coakley’s 30 percent. Kennedy earns just 3 percent of the independent vote, and 1 percent are undecided.

Given the 4.4-point margin of error, the poll shows Coakley could win the race, Paleologos said. But if Brown’s momentum holds, he is poised to succeed the late Sen. Edward M. Kennedy - and to halt health-care reform, the issue the late senator dubbed “the cause of my life.”

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/politics/view.bg?articleid=1225720&srvc=home&position=rated


The Corporate Health Insurance Profits Protection Act, ie Obama Orwell's "chains" you can believe in....

[mmonk]

33. Against and I would give the reasons why.

I think people might like the honesty.

[SargeUNN]

34. The Bill isn't the greatest and has to be improved, but

Considering the hardships of getting the bill to where it is, considering the fact that Ted Kennedy fought for healthcare reform for decades and little changed, considering those who want all or nothing in changing it, I can see why it isn't nearly as good as it should be. Funny thing about such change, those who need it to happen gets drowned out because corporations spend huge amounts to send out propaganda, and to buy off those voting in the House and Senate, then others don't get everything they want so they go against what change you can get done, so you face not only the ones who don't want change, but you face those who want change that isn't going to get through and they say my way or I am out.

Hopefully, and honestly I don't know, that plans are in the works to continue to fight and maybe with enough fighting hard and not quitting, we can even get to single payer.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

35. Did Ted Kennedy fight for corporate welfare?

I think he would be appalled at what the Senate bill has turned into.

And it is precisely the inclusion of corporate bennies that has made the negotiations so complicated.

[grytpype]

36. For.

[madamesilverspurs]

37. I'd support

opening the door, then work to keep opening it wider.

---

[bvar22]

38. As an American citizen and a member of the Working Class...

...I would OPPOSE the current HCR no matter what Party I was running for.


LESS than 35% of the American People support Mandates w/o a Public Option.

The Democrats will NEVER be able to SELL this in Peoria...or anywhere else Americans Work for a Living.

ALL projections show Premiums INCREASING over the next few years.
America WILL blame the Democrats.....and rightly so.

What do YOU think is going to happen?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. As I've posted before (and you're probably old enough to recognize the allusion)

the Republicans and their friends in the insurance industry are saying, "Oh no, Democrats, PLEASE don't throw us into that briar patch!"

[bvar22]

41. The Republicans are coming out of this smelling like a rose.

They got everything (Mandates, no Public Option, no cost containment) they wanted with NO political risk or responsibility for what happens when the bills start coming in.

Yes! "Don't throw me in that brier patch!"

All they have to do now is sit on the front porch in a rocker smoking a big cigar and say, "Yep. We opposed it."

[Laelth]

40. I would be against it ...

... until my arm got twisted half-off and my future as a politician was repeatedly threatened.

Then, I would miraculously see the light and reverse my position.

Or, at least, that seems to be the way this game works.

:dem:

-Laelth