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Greenwald: Sunstein's spine-chilling proposal. Covert agents to "cognitively infiltrate" websites.

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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 07:11 PM
Original message
Greenwald: Sunstein's spine-chilling proposal. Covert agents to "cognitively infiltrate" websites.
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/01/15/sunstein/index.html

Cass Sunstein has long been one of Barack Obama's closest confidants. Often mentioned as a likely Obama nominee to the Supreme Court, Sunstein is currently Obama's head of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs where, among other things, he is responsible for "overseeing policies relating to privacy, information quality, and statistical programs." In 2008, while at Harvard Law School, Sunstein co-wrote a truly pernicious paper proposing that the U.S. Government employ teams of covert agents and pseudo-"independent" advocates to "cognitively infiltrate" online groups and websites -- as well as other activist groups -- which advocate views that Sunstein deems "false conspiracy theories" about the Government. This would be designed to increase citizens' faith in government officials and undermine the credibility of conspiracists. The paper's abstract can be read, and the full paper downloaded, here.

Sunstein advocates that the Government's stealth infiltration should be accomplished by sending covert agents into "chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups." He also proposes that the Government make secret payments to so-called "independent" credible voices to bolster the Government's messaging (on the ground that those who don't believe government sources will be more inclined to listen to those who appear independent while secretly acting on behalf of the Government). This program would target those advocating false "conspiracy theories," which they define to mean: "an attempt to explain an event or practice by reference to the machinations of powerful people, who have also managed to conceal their role." Sunstein's 2008 paper was flagged by this blogger, and then amplified in an excellent report by Raw Story's Daniel Tencer.

<edit>

Consider the recent revelation that the Obama administration has been making very large, undisclosed payments to MIT Professor Jonathan Gruber to provide consultation on the President's health care plan. With this lucrative arrangement in place, Gruber spent the entire year offering public justifications for Obama's health care plan, typically without disclosing these payments, and far worse, was repeatedly held out by the White House -- falsely -- as an "independent" or "objective" authority. Obama allies in the media constantly cited Gruber's analysis to support their defenses of the President's plan, and the White House, in turn, then cited those media reports as proof that their plan would succeed. This created an infinite "feedback loop" in favor of Obama's health care plan which -- unbeknownst to the public -- was all being generated by someone who was receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars in secret from the administration (read this to see exactly how it worked).

In other words, this arrangement was quite similar to the Armstrong Williams and Maggie Gallagher scandals which Democrats, in virtual lockstep, condemned. Paul Krugman, for instance, in 2005 angrily lambasted right-wing pundits and policy analysts who received secret, undisclosed payments, and said they lack "intellectual integrity"; he specifically cited the Armstrong Williams case. Yet the very same Paul Krugman last week attacked Marcy Wheeler for helping to uncover the Gruber payments by accusing her of being "just like the right-wingers with their endless supply of fake scandals." What is one key difference? Unlike Williams and Gallagher, Jonathan Gruber is a Good, Well-Intentioned Person with Good Views -- he favors health care -- and so massive, undisclosed payments from the same administration he's defending are dismissed as a "fake scandal."

<edit>

So Sunstein isn't calling right now for proposals (1) and (2) -- having Government "ban conspiracy theorizing" or "impose some kind of tax on those who" do it -- but he says "each will have a place under imaginable conditions." I'd love to know the "conditions" under which the government-enforced banning of conspiracy theories or the imposition of taxes on those who advocate them will "have a place." That would require, at a bare minumum, a repeal of the First Amendment. Anyone who believes this should, for that reason alone, be barred from any meaningful government position.


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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. Tin foil much?
Now where's my check dammit!

:rofl:
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Ok. . Now THAT is scary as all-get-out. . . . n/t
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. This should disturb any thinking person.
I'm not surprised, unfortunately.

K & R
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Papa Boule Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. It certainly should. Unfortunately we seem to have misplaced all our thinking persons. n/t
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
44. This is another example of making shit up using facts not in evidence.
What Sunstein actually said bears NO resemblance whatsoever to what it's actually being described as.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. What is posted is a direct quote from Sunstein's paper.
I've read it, have you?
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #44
53. What Sunstein said is absloutely what he meant.I
It's okay to infiltrate internet boards to try to influence the dialogue there so long as you are one of the 'good guys'. And if you think this hasn't already happened, you haven't been around the internet for very long.

He should resign. But then again when party loyalists are willing to forgive everything they condemned when it was Bush doing it, there isn't much need for him to resign.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. Looks to me like that was implemented...
Probably way earlier than 2008...
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. No need to repeal the First Amendment. Just have the stooges deingrate dissenters
and call them names to intimidate them into silence. The GOP's been doin it for ages, and the DLC seems to have their ::ahem:: spokes-supporters out in force now too.
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DeadEyeDyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
6. Why not?
We are well past 1984
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. Powerful people concealing their roles? That's CRAZY talk...
and it should be illegal!
















:sarcasm:
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
8. We kinda already knew that didn't we?
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appal_jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
9. COINTELPRO for the internet age. n/t
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
38. Yup
.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. Shhhhhh!
Rahm Emanuel's Think Tankers Enforce 'Message Discipline' Among 'Liberals'

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-scahill/rahm-emanuels-think-tanke_b_185203.html


Pass it on....
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
11. that's why I'm so thankful I found muckrakers like Rampton and Stauber, who expose
Edited on Fri Jan-15-10 09:15 PM by MisterP
propagandists like Richard Berman, Milloy, and a whole lot of "friends of science and mankind" costumed in white coats
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
12. I used to date his ex-wife when we were
high-school age...

wait...did that come out right?

As Pat Robertson would say; "True Story"...but this really is...
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-15-10 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
13. If your intent is to make people afraid to be Americans ...
you're too late. The NeoCons, with Osama's blessing, beat you to it.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
14. K&R
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. .
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
15. A conspiracy to get rid of conspiracy theory.
at least in theory

:crazy:
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
16. We all know that powerful people never, ever engage in "machinations"..
And then attempt to conceal those machinations..

Yep, powerful people are always completely above board and open about what they do and with whom.

On a totally unrelated note, have we found out who attended the energy meetings with Dick Cheney yet?



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votingupstart Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
17. you want to secretly persuade people to listen to you and then publicly tell everyone about it?
awesome plan -- not a chance it will fail


-- now where exactly is that big-ass sarcasm button again
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
19. Surely none of those dastardly bastards are posting on DU!
Are they?

They wouldn't!
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. there wouldn't be any Sense in that!
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. GD-P Right there wouldn't!
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #33
51. good one!
:evilgrin:
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. You're right. There's no Pro in that position...
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 06:42 PM by Junkdrawer
:evilgrin:
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #34
50. word up.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
55. I think most of "us" know who "they" are.
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 06:22 PM by BeHereNow
Let's face it, obviously "subtlety and stealth"
has obviously not been part of the training technique.

I've NEVER had such a long "ignore" list.
I keep hoping Skinner and the gang don't limit the space
for our personal ignore lists.

BHN
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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
20. Greenwald knocks it out of the park, again.


K n R
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
21. Read Krugman's response
here

Also, Greenwald's updates prove just his original post was a trainwreck.

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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
22. I wonder what their definition of "Crazy Conspiracy Theory" is..?
Edited on Sat Jan-16-10 01:43 PM by lib2DaBone

For Instance: Pulling out of Afghanistan would save enough money to pay for health care for every man, woman and child in the USA? PLUS, enough money left over to send every person in the USA to college PLUS build 44 million housing units?

Ya, I guess I'm just one of those far-left crazy 911 Conspiracy types....

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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. the article goes into some of that.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
52. As it happens, it's *not* all about you
Try going over to stormfront.org for example. A small number of DU conspiracy theorists engage in a perpetual circle jerk, but there are a lot of websites where people both subscribe to way out shit and spend a lot of time polishing guns. As with many of the replies assuming that this initiative is primarily directed at sites like DU, the degree of self-centeredness is a classic symptom of paranoia.

Despite what you think, you're not wacky enough to be the target of any kind of counter-intelligence. American left-wingers like to talk about revolution but haven't engaged in anything more threatening than sign-waving and dressing up since the 1970s. I have (fortunately) yet to meet any leftists who devote significant time to weapon tuning or manufacture. On the other hand, I know a depressing proportion of right-wingers with paramilitary inclinations and ability.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
23. Is this why Obama advocates spying on all Americans thru warrantless wiretapping allowed by FISA?
I imagine Sunstein would write the Supreme Court opinion permanently legitimizing it and removing the umbrella right to privacy -- the same right to privacy that, in the health realm, bolsters Roe vs. Wade and (drumroll) the right to personal privacy in ones healthcare decisions, such as whether or not to purchase private for-profit health insurance.
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happy_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
25. K&R
nt
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
26. This proves what I've suspected
Obama is even better at propaganda than the Bush admin. (only with willing followers-of course)

I'm starting to wonder if he isn't exactly the successor to the previous era that I feared.
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happy_liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I think some of these people are here defending the Haiti response
nt
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
29. Anyone can do that
The government wouldn't be able to ban the theorizing. Even if they had these covert agents, the most they could do was argue. In fact you see that in the 911 forum, plenty of the posters there cut down the conspiracy theories.

You're saying people have no minds of their own, and any internet poster has powers over their minds.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
31. knr nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
32. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
hileeopnyn8d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #32
45. Alex Jones
should scare the hell out of you, but instead you link to his crazy-ass website.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
35. They're already here/ nt
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Was that a confession?
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Yep.
But I still haven't been paid.

Ask your mom about that, will ya??
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. I'll ask her but you'll have to wait until there is a cure for dementia for her answer.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. Sorry - Mine too.
Yet another snark gone south.

No offense.

Again, sorry.


And no one pays enough to get me to subscribe to a fascist state.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Sorry about your mom, too.
I shouldn't have reacted the way I did to your post. Of course, you couldn't know. What makes this whole lame exchange worse is that my first post was meant to be a joke. Perhaps I had a tad too much bourbon last night to be witty today.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
39. Sunstein is an ass, that's been clear for a while.
But one-subject trolls is hardly a new idea, it's been going on here since I can remember.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. It is illegal for the U.S. government to engage in covert propaganda
directed at its own citizens.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. The US government ignores its own laws and its own Constitution whenever it chooses.
It's been that way for quite a long time now, since the country was founded really. So I guess we agree that it is illegal for them to do that.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #43
54. And THAT will be my statement to the Judge when reporting for jury duty.
Going to hear Vincent Bugliosi speak last summer
with Robinlynne demolished ALL faith I have ever
had in our judicial system.
Bugliosi has it right- there are TWO sets of
laws in this country.
Those for the hapless who end up as fodder in the privatized prison for profit system,
and those who act with complete impunity and immunity.

I have no interest in serving on a jury as long as
those are the conditions and I will tell any Judge in this
country that truth.

BHN
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
42. Lord High Douchenozzle Greenwald has worked himself into a high dudgeon
:eyes:
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-16-10 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
46. Recommended thread
IMO some internet forums are infested with covert operatives.

Sometimes forums may even be pre-designed and "leaders" of opposing opinions plants.

I think it likely that infiltration and tactic started contemporary to usenet.



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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
56. Based on Sunstein's own paper (admissions) this is a big concern. n/t
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