Another clusterfuck, just like Katrina. This is ridiculous!

[Waiting For Everyman]

Get the damn water, food, sanitation, and med supplies on the ground already.

CNN reports the UN telling doctors to get out because of "security concerns". WTF? We've got ships off the harbor full of military personnel. You mean to tell me our troops can't secure a MASH tent? They can't secure distribution to that soccer field, the palace, and other places where lots of people are?

Bullshit!

They could bullhorn where other distribution sites are, and tell the people supplies will keep coming so there's no point in fighting for it, hoarding it, or selling it. Start with MREs, and then go to cooked food later. It needs to be a lot of it, and keep it coming day and night continuously. Not dribs and drabs, here and there. They could set up broadcast radio at the big distribution sites, to tell people where to go for what.

These people are going to start dying before our eyes. Again.

This is more of bureaucrats playing technicality games. I don't want to see anything else reported there, until I see masses of people getting supplies. NOW. Damn, this makes me mad. There is NO EXCUSE for this. None. Zero.

[defendandprotect]

1. Not watching, but maybe they're going to "manage" this to make Katrina "rescue" look good???

Was just reading a new book on the sixties and comments by 40 leaders and

activists --

One of them was commenting direct line from HUAC, to COINTELPRO, to HOMELAND SECURITY --

One of them was commenting that all set up for a national security state is in place here --

we're just not being arrested yet!!

[msongs]

2. glad to hear you are restoring the docks and clearing the streets. thanks :-) nt

[Waiting For Everyman]

7. Glad you don't mind watching 3 million die on tv - for incompetence.

You should be so lucky to be in their position someday.

If our military can't handle the "logistics" on this, we need to disband it.

We have 15 helicopters on just one ship which could be running supplies and "security" in right now. The reporters manage to get around on the roads, but supplies can't?

Sure.

[LynneSin]

219. So when are you going to wave your magic wand and fix all of this?

You make it sound so simple. Really what you are doing is showing your ignorance to the level of damage done to the structures needed to bring this stuff into Port-au-Prince.

[napi21]

3. I think you have to get with reality! The Carl Vincent is there, but can't get anything ashore

gecause the port was distroyed! They can't do air drops becaust they need at least an open field so they don't kill peiple by hitting them! So much is inaccessable becaue roads were destroyed.

You don't understand reality of a disaster situation!

[cherokeeprogressive]

8. Not important, but it's the Carl Vinson. CVN-70.

Just thought you'd like to know.

[napi21]

16. My bad. My son is in the Navy & stationed aborard the Nimitz. He talks

about the Carl Vinson all the time. Sorry!

[Waiting For Everyman]

15. You mean to tell me that troops never "chopper in" anywhere?

My late husband did that in VN, and it's no different here.

It isn't necessary to just drop large pallets from great heights.

[napi21]

24. Even bundles of MRE's or water is very heavy. There's no place to

drop. You need an open feild or somewhere that you don't risk hitting people. As I understand it, there is no place like that there!

There have been other posts here that talked about "hovering" and all have explained that the wash will knock you on your ass!

I know they are doing everyting they can.

[Raschel]

30. I saw a field where they wrote SOS in huge letters. Bet that would be a good spot.

[Leopolds Ghost]

116. I wish I could recommend this post. how bout this... (rec) n/t

(rec)

[Hannah Bell]

119. there are many such spots. posters are just making excuses.

[Waiting For Everyman]

45. We can't put troops on the ground by chopper?

And lower supplies... any amount of supplies... down to them? We can't do that safely?

I don't buy it.

[Leopolds Ghost]

117. Force protection is the number one objective of the US military and UN personnel.

They will not enter into an un-policed area without full body armor for fear of being shot at, be it Haiti or Texas.

Unless they go in loaded for bear and free-fire, they will insist on someone less paranoid,
such as Doctors Without Borders

(or mercs and paid security personnel, such as routinely accompany journalists) going in first.

No slap on the grunts, I am sure they don't feel that way.

but the REMFs and the more "cuturally insensitive" officers (in any organization) are the policy setters.

[Hannah Bell]

118. They can ferry the supplies to the airport & work the logistics from there. There are vehicles

moving, observers say, in fact, traffic is fairly heavy, they say. Media have been able to bring in generators, film equipment, vehicles - & you're saying the US military can't bring in food? It's ridiculous.

About 20% of the population lives in and around Port au Prince. Flying in supplies to rural (& less hard-hit) areas with light planes not so hard either, & "security" not a big concern.

[sendero]

150. That's about ..

... the dumbest thing I've ever read here, and I've read a lot.

I'm sure there is a reason, but that ain't it.

[jtuck004]

61. Yes, of course

But look at the distance. Say North Carolina, where there "might" be enough troops and helicopters (though I doubt it).

1247 miles to Haiti.

Range of Helicopter, say a CH47 - loaded, 450 miles. Ferrying range (empty) 1215 miles. Either way it drops into the water short of Haiti.

Since there is probably not a shipful of marines and helicopters with the boilers warmed up and ready to steam, all that has to come to the docks, be loaded, then start sailing. You can look up a knots vs mph conversion, and ship capabilities (speed) for AC Carriers, but suffice it to say that it will take a few days.

You can send the nearest ships, but without thinking through this, by simply dropping whatever few troops into the area without significant support you are just adding to the problem. And since they are not likely combat troops sailing around in the water, you are putting people in a grave and dangerous situation. You aren't seriously suggesting giving a handful of sailors .45's and water bottles and dropping them in front of tens of thousands of desperate, hungry, and thirsty people?

And even if you send the nearest ships, where do they put people in? A bunch of rubber rafts paddling their way into the shore? Their rafts would be taken away and armed people would be paddling back to the ship - then what do you do.

I applaud your husband's service in Vietnam. I was in the Navy then, and supply is not just a matter of clicking your heels three times and wishing everything was there. We did not have that capability until Dick Cheney.

But thank you for caring so much for these people. Sometimes we do need to have someone with your passion to encourage the effort.

[pengillian101]

91. Thanks for that info.

That explains to me why air drops aren't readily available.

And thanks, jtuck004, for your serving and a belated welcome home.

:patriot:

[Hannah Bell]

121. There are already helicopters in Haiti. Carl Vinson = aircraft carrier.

Carl vinson & six other US ships are already in haiti sitting in the harbor. 100,000 military personnel in florida alone, 710 miles from haiti & HQ for atlantic marine expeditionary force. 3 MEUs in north carolina, prepared for immediate deployment & 1 given orders to deploy on wednesday.

[GCP]

172. So how come all those foreign rescue teams were on the ground

Practically the day after?
This is another Katrina-style clusterfuck IMHO.

[newspeak]

187. well, it is not just like Katrina

our media is reporting to us, just like they did in the Katrina disaster. Remember them reporting about shots being fired and that's why people weren't being rescued? Remember showing pictures of black people looting and white people just finding food and water? Remember how FEMA cut off local communications for state rescuers? Remember how many countries wanted to join in aiding the Katrina victims and others wanted to send money, but it was "no thanks" by the * administration. Our media is reporting to us--this time-there are other countries involved, that some of OUR media isn't showing us. Yes, I agree more action, more expediency--but, this is a concerted effort with more countries involved, including the UN--it is also, even though Katrina was brutal-a more devastating event, with more people involved.

[harkadog]

193. What in the world are you talking about?

North Carolina? WTF? The helicopters are on ships a couples from the city. Get real.

[Hannah Bell]

115. Carl Vinson = an aircraft carrier. They can land planes on it, ergo they can land the helicopters

on it & ferry in supplies & people.

[qazplm]

198. of for the love of all that is holy

they can land specially equipped fighters and planes on it.

If you think that any old plane particularly AF Transport planes, can just land on an AC Carrier, then you are speaking of something you really dont know about.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

214. It was reported earlier that the Vinson had emptied its stores via helo

What they had was a drop in the bucket compared to the need

[Barack_America]

4. You're honestly comparing a natural disaster with no warning on foreign soil...

...to a hurricane predicted days in advance on American soil?

Really?

[liberalhistorian]

Kinda boggles the mind, doesn't it?

Especially because there simply is NO comparison at all. And I don't think the OP quite understands the level of destruction and devastation in Haiti right now.

[Zoeisright]

130. +1000

The stupid is just crawling out of the woodwork.

[qazplm]

199. idiots

they want to spend all of their time criticizing, trying to find a way to make this all of our fault because it's Haiti, and well,you know, us being evil and all, and how we really don't want to help this time either...

I'm all for skepticism and cynicism but there is a fucking time and a place for it and this aint it.

[dkf]

5. I hear the military hasn't Been given rules of engagement.

They are there just to deliver not to enforce or protect.

[napi21]

54. They HAVE been told to deliver but if there is violence they are

to stand down.

[dkf]

56. Exactly.

So the op cannot count on our military to protect anyone.

[RoyGBiv]

6. This is the most ignorant post I have seen today ...

... and that's saying something.

When you get up off your ass and rebuild a nation's infrastructure in three days, let me know.

[Waiting For Everyman]

9. Making excuses for obvious incompetence takes the ignorance prize.

If these "professionals" can't get this done, maybe they SHOULD be replaced by some people with common sense who COULD.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. what are your credentials?

[RoyGBiv]

13. What is your excuse?

[PacerLJ35]

92. I've got very close friends flying down there daily

They've done this all over the world, and I KNOW they are giving it their best. Enjoy your armchair, general.

[donheld]

111. Let you do it if you think you're so smart.

Heck of a job everyman

[Pavulon]

173. Sure, a pick up team will replace the people

who provided aid and support after the tsunami. Large logistical operations are not easy. cant just miracle a road network back into existence.

[qazplm]

201. then get your ass down there

clearly you know what needs to be done. Stop typing, get on a phone and offer your intelligence and assistance.

Go out and get some volunteers, set something up, get out from behind your sanctimonious keyboard and do something or you are no better thant he folks you lambaste.

[blondeatlast]

43. +1. Way too much armchair quarterbacking and even worse, being led by the msm. nt

[malaise]

141. +1 n/t

[daa]

179. Agreed nt

[okieinpain]

203. I agree. n/t.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. What are your qualifications in this?

Wait, I know that you don't, why you are being this ignorant.

So let me clue you in.

This is not as easy as you think, and actually, for those of us with the TRAINING, this is going as well as it could under the circumstances...

[SidDithers]

17. It's easy to be Disaster Response expert from behind their keyboard...

Thanks again for your informed opinions over the last couple of days.

Sid

[RoyGBiv]

19. Second that ...

It's nice that some people on this site actually have some clue what they're talking about and are willing to share that knowledge.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. You welcome, I wish I could be there and not here

Though I know why I shouldn't be there.

:-)

Though the other day seeing the photos of the Red Cross team deploying (from Mexico)... I saw one of my instructors... that was all kinds of weird. He is a year older than me, I guess his body has held better than mine.

[blondeatlast]

49. NB--you are doing a HUGE service answering the armchair quarterbacks.

I know your heart is definitely there--but you ARE helping by sharing your experience and knowledge.

[Missy Vixen]

102. Nadin, thank you for imparting your knowledge

The whole situation makes me feel completely helpless. I'm not watching the coverage anymore, just because I know what's happening. Three days without water.

Everyone there is doing the best they can with what they have to work with.

I just keep hoping, though, they'll be able to get some water to people who desperately need it in the next 12-24 hours.

:hug:

[blondeatlast]

47. +1. There's some very smaart DUers trying to bring some sense into

this tinfoil chaos.

Thanks to NB, MadMaddie, a bunch of well informed others, and a big bunch of our DU veterans who are trying to restore some sanity into this tinfoil stupidity and media wholesale buy-in.

[tango-tee]

168. I've read so many of your posts over the years

and respect your opinion. What is your take on this huge problem with coordination of the aid effort? Should the U.N. be in charge? I simply don't know and watch all of this on TV from a continent and an ocean away, but I do know that with each passing hour the problems multiply for these poor, poor people.

[unkachuck]

12. ah, the world puts on another good show.....

....but since it's only poor blacks that are dying, injured and homeless, 'rescue' takes time....if this was England, MREs would be raining from the skys....

[Waiting For Everyman]

20. Exactly.

I notice they got out all the people who wanted to leave ok - FIRST. And they happened to be mostly US citizens. They thoroughly dug out that luxury hotel. They went after the UN building.

But the large groups of people in the open areas are "security risks".

I can't believe most people on this site think this is ok.

[tabatha]

55. They were doing swaps ---

supplies in and people out on the return journey.

There are about 500 injured people in the US now, and they are not all White.

[uppityperson]

73. "hey got out all the people who wanted to leave ok - FIRST" as opposed to forcing people to leave

that didn't want to?

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. Ok this is why they got those lilly white Americans out

and those Lilly brown Mexicans, and those Lilly white Canadians, and those Lilly brown Brazilians, Chileans, I could go on

See every plane that landed, evacuated their own nationals, not just the US. What you think the US is the only one landing planes?

You know why they did this? I mean the horror...

I'll tell you why.

each one of these people I need to give them a litter of water\day and at this stage one MRE... so getting them out, about 40 a plane, means I can keep my forty liters of water and forty MREs for use in the field.


Now you may not think this is important, but just from the US that is 1000 liters of water and MREs so far... see how that kind of piles up? And for every day I keep them in country, I need to give them water and food, and I run the risk of them getting hurt... after all they are useless here. If I add all the evacuees so far it is close to 5,000 from all different nations... but I am sure we should not evacuate people, because somebody on the web thinks this is a whole conspiracy.

[Hannah Bell]

125. white people aren't dangerous. some of the media talking heads were hyping potential

violence from day one. there was one bimbo who was particularly insistent.

[okieinpain]

205. don't think so. n/t.

[BunkerHill24]

14. Its rather ridiculous to hear NGO spokesman claiming his warehouse was loathed

This so called NGO Spokesperson had the audacity to say that he was sitting on sixty thousand worth of of food-stuffings over three days in Haiti whilst people starved? Indeed there was loathing going on, and it was the same NGO', and thousands of them in Haiti before the earthquake.

[foxfeet]

23. I'm sure hoping you mean "looted" and "looting" rather than "loathed" and "loathing."

[BunkerHill24]

32. Indeed. No other nation has had more established NGO's than Haiti

You have to ask yourself; why have they waited this long to distribute what they had already? They now know the community, they know their clientele per say....if they had staff in place; staff they should have already distributing what-ever they have had in their warehouses. But, nay, they await more to come so that they can continue on benefiting from it.

[Leopolds Ghost]

120. Were the NGOs in question were making millions of dollars selling on black market?

Or practicing force protection and disaster capitalism like the Red Cross did after Katrina?

Why indeed did they just sit on a warehouse full of supplies?

[Hannah Bell]

127. you could go further than that & wonder, what with all the wonderful "helping organizations", why

haiti wasn't already a paradise on earth.

[BunkerHill24]

48. what I'm saying is that these same NGO's now putting out the word "loathing'

are the ones doing the loath.

[WolverineDG]

129. Maybe because they had to dig themselves out too?

:eyes:

dg

[jillan]

18. It is mindboggling how there can be all these countries, soldiers, supplies and the people are not

getting what they need.

[Divine Discontent]

27. yes. with 3 days past, there's still mass chaos, it shows how succeptible we all are to disaster

as no matter how much they prepare, they can't get shit in quickly anywhere it seems... my bro said Obama needs to start knockin heads, which I'm sure he's on top of this and upset with any failures that pop up or roadblocks. bro said, they cant make an airport runway quickly in a day like they have in wars? I'd like to see this all turn around by tomorrow, let's hope so!

[Truthiness Inspector]

22. International aid is a GIFT not a RIGHT

Things don't always, rarely in fact, happen perfectly.

Remember that as blame gets bounced around. The problem is a sense of entitlement to premiere treatment under extremely difficult conditions.

For fuck's sake, nobody has to do anything, Haiti is a sovereign nation. Having said that, gratitude should be shown to all people who DO step up and try to help, to people who donate their money, goods, and time to help strangers out of a devastating crisis, including the United States. Likewise, scorn should be showered down upon those who have the donations and monies to help who drag their feet, or worse siphon funds off for themselves.

[Hannah Bell]

128. "sovereign". oh, ya, sure, you betcha.

[Raschel]

25. I just posted the same. I can't stand to watch.

Schools full of children, children's hospital, other hospitals with people left to die, trapped inside.

People who will die tonite due to lack of care.

Media hype about unrest, riots. It's sickening.

I can't believe Anderson Cooper is finally talking about it. Sanjay Gupta said he's never seen anything like it, the UN coming and taking the doctors, leaving sick patients.

It's all about security. Safety from the "savages"

[NYC_SKP]

26. Oh bullshit. Katrina was on US soil. Get a fucking clue. Get a world globe, an atlas.

Go to Haiti yourself and fix it.

[Raschel]

28. Robert Gates says no drops for fear of rioting. Couldn't they have dropped leaflets from day one or

two?

[oldhippie]

38. Do leaflets taste good?

Leaflets? WTF? 50% of Haitians are illiterate.

[Raschel]

63. I'm sure they could figure it out.

[Cleita]

50. In the Berlin Air Lift after WWII, they dropped candy bars just to keep

starving people going. I think those trail mix bars could be dropped. They won't kill anyone. I don't know how they would get water to people though. Maybe a little rain would be welcome.

[RamboLiberal]

68. Actually the candy bars were dropped as a gift to the kids

Yeah but I think they need to find a way with choppers and other ways of getting water and food out to these people. I do think the first couple of days have been a bit of a clusterfuck.

One of the many American pilots to fly the USAF C-54 Skymaster during the Berlin Airlift of 1948-49 ("Operation Vittles") was Colonel Gail S. Halvorsen of Provo, Utah. During the operation he became known as the "Candy Bomber" because he repeatedly dropped candy to German children from his aircraft on approach to the runways.

The idea grew out of a chance meeting between Halvorsen and several German school children at the perimeter fence of Tempelhof Airport. While waiting for his aircraft to be unloaded one day he decided to walk to the end of the runway and photograph other C-54s making their landing approach to the runway, a tricky descent over several buildings outside the Tempelhof grounds.

While standing at the barbed wire fence he struck up a conversation with the German children gathered outside to watch the giant airplanes land. The hungry children asked if Halvorsen had any gum or candy, and he eagerly gave them two pieces of gum that he happened to be carrying in his pocket. He promised to bring them more gum and candy on his next flight into the airport, saying that he would drop it to them as he passed over them while landing. When asked how they would known which of the huge airplanes was his, he said he would "wiggle his wings" as he approached their position.

True to his word, on his next mission to Tempelhof Airport, on final approach to the runway Halvorsen "wiggled his wings" and had the Flight Engineer push three bundles of sweets through the flare chute on the C-54 flightdeck. (Halvorsen had gathered the candy by talking other pilots into donating their Candy Ration Cards to the effort.) The three small parcels floated down on tiny, homemade handkerchief parachutes, but Halvorsen could not see whether the children caught the packages due to the business of landing. Later, as he taxied the empty C-54 to the end of the runway to depart the airfield, he looked to the crowd of children at the fence. Three white handkerchiefs waved back at him enthusiastically!

Over the next few weeks Halvorsen repeated the airdrops to an ever-growing audience of German children at the fence. Soon he even began to receive letters at the airport, addressed simply to "Uncle Wiggly Wings -- Tempelhof," requesting special airdrops at other locations within the city! Local newspapers picked up the story and his fame began to spread. Back at his home base Halvorsen began to receive mail from other pilots who wanted to help. Candy was donated, handkerchief parachutes were made by volunteers, and the tiny parcels began to fall all over Berlin.

http://www.hill.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=5979

[Cleita]

71. Whatever the excuse about the children, it was really about getting

some kind of food to the starving Germans somehow. You know better. I know better and the guys who did it really know better.

[RamboLiberal]

78. The food & fuel was on the planes that landed in Berlin

And then was offloaded to be distributed. They weren't doing airdrops during the Berlin airlift. But of course back then they didn't have the heavy lift helicopters like they do today. My opinion is they should be using helicopters to bring pallets of food & water to these people if they can't truck them in. Helicopters is how they got food & water to the Tsunami victims.

Sorry but I'm a nitpicker about getting history correct. Those little handkerchief parachute candy drops weren't to halt starvation.

[Cleita]

81. Hookay, but I'm almost sure a few Germans staved off starvation because of it.

I know I met one or two who immigrated here after the war. But if that's the official history, it's the official history.

[RamboLiberal]

88. Actually the pilots were breaking the rules at first

Why did you choose The Candy Bombers as the title of this book? Who were the Candy Bombers?

They were a group of airmen during the Berlin Airlift that followed the lead of a young 27-year-old pilot and started dropping candy tied to little parachutes to the children of the devastated city. (At first, in doing so, they were breaking all the rules of that vast and complicated undertaking; later the airlift command gave its blessing to the candy drops.) The name was coined by the children of Berlin and eventually came to be used for all the airlift pilots. In the larger sense what I argue in the book is that their approach to dealing with the Germans became seen and accepted as the way America should act in the world. There was a big debate right after World War II as to the kind of role America should play as it was coming into its own as a world power. During the Berlin Airlift, as the candy drops became its defining feature, Americans came to view their role as a special one – a role predicated on the belief that we had a mission in the world to act in a way that married our military might with a sense of moral purpose.

http://www.germany.info/Vertretung/usa/en/10__Press__Facts/03__Infocus/01__Airlift/05/Feature__5.html

[PacerLJ35]

94. The amount of real food delivered via the runway far exceeded the very tiny amount of candy dropped

Get a grip. I'm a USAF pilot that flies aircraft that do airdrops and resupply, and the Berlin Airlift is something we all study. We delivered TONS...TONS of food, coal and other items daily into Templehoff, and perhaps a few dozen chocolate bars via handmade parachutes to children. Hmmm...do I want the TONS of food and medical supplies? Or do I want a few pounds of trailmix...

REALLY? Come on!!!

[Cleita]

106. Fine. Right now nothing is being delivered except to the tarmac

in the airport. I do hope you know what we are talking about. Trail mix would be a big relief in the interim until the rest of you get your shit together.

[PacerLJ35]

107. "until you get your shit together"...that's quite a luxury you have being able to say that

I imagine if you were actually out there trying to get something done, and some pompous fool typing away on a keyboard calling you out as lazy or worse, it would probably piss you off.

[Cleita]

109. You know I'm right. Don't try to sugar coat it. n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

154. You're making a fool of yourself

Stop digging.

[Cleita]

181. It's for me to decide if I'm a fool or not, not you.

Always the insults come out when you are left with nothing to say.

[alcibiades_mystery]

195. Oh, I'm just an observer

Your performance on this thread is, like, objectively foolish.

[Codeine]

113. "Get your shit together"?!

WTF are you doing, Keyboard Kommander? What is your contribution? Are you doing more than the aid folks and military personnel?

Thought not.

[Cleita]

182. Haha. Like you are doing something. Look in the mirror before you

hurl accusations. I'm doing my share within my ability to do so. Are you?

[Codeine]

192. The difference is

that I'm not being an ignorant armchair quarterback, criticizing those who are doing the heavy lifting.

[hack89]

147. Drop a few bags of trail mix in a hungry crowd and watch the riot. nt

[Cleita]

184. And you are a perfect example of the fear mongering that is going on.

People are going to die because the fear of mobs and rioting is being stirred up and frankly the longer this is delayed, the better chance there is for exactly that to happen. You know that they dropped MRIs in Afghanistan before we invaded. I don't remember any stories of rioting because if there was they sure kept the media from reporting on it.

[hack89]

188. We didn't drop them in huge crowds of starving people nt

[Cleita]

190. Excuse me but they were starving, which is why we dropped them. n/t

[hack89]

206. But not in the middle of huge crowds.

don't you understand that you will kill people? That there will be a stampede of desperate people? That the small and weak will be trampled?

[Codeine]

194. They dropped MRIs?

House must have been in charge.



"It's not lupus."

[FrenchieCat]

29. CNN has been working hard for the last two days,

trying to make this another Katrina, in terms of how it is handled.

They keep saying....."I don't know how much longer people will be civil"....

like these folks don't know how to behave, and shit.

Think that CNN is stirring the pot a bit, if you ask me.

[NYC_SKP]

33. And it seems to be working. Of course, there is no comparison to Katrina. n/t

[FrenchieCat]

35. Anyway they can stir the shit, they do......

they figure we don't know how hard this situation is not only for the victim, but for those trying to help them.

It's supposed to be easy, because Anderson, Sanjay and his crew have been there for days.
Of course, they ain't giving up their food stash to the natives,
I'll tell you that!

[lebkuchen]

157. Our reporters on the scene look like they're on the verge of crying

or barfing.

I was reading about some relief organizations which are recruiting. What they're looking for are people who are physically fit and low-maintenance, people who won't get in the way of those they're supposed to assist.

Judging from the reporters' grief on the scene, and, assuming they've "seen it all" before, yet have a difficult time keeping their reactions to themselves, a volunteer job with a relief organization in a situation like this is definitely not for the feint of heart. I know I couldn't do it.

I do think the report of the "roving bands of machete weilding youths" was an over-reaction. For all anyone knows, the machetes are being used to dig out loved ones because no one else is there to help.

[GreenStormCloud]

209. Machetes don't dig well through concrete and rebar.

May I suggest reading up on the history of machete gangs in Haiti? They are violent and predatory.

[HipChick]

34. Not as hard as MSNBC..pushing "violence in the streets" and showing

yesterdays clip over and over again with the airport journalists..who didn't step foot outside the airport..and WTF was Al Roker doing there?

[FrenchieCat]

36. They are both trying hard......

They all want to get what Anderson got the last time.

But like I said; bet anything they aren't giving up their food to the Haitians,
and then doing without and reporting!

[Leopolds Ghost]

144. What Anderson got last time certainly wasn't reports of looting and rioting.

It was reports of gov't forcibly quarantining passive and starving survivors and treating them like criminals and not letting them leave on foot or bus, for fear of looting and rioting or worse, "entering other jurisdictions" that were "just as bad off", where they "weren't wanted".

[Leopolds Ghost]

145. The point of the Katrina comparison is that if we couldn't handle 3,000-10,000 deaths

And don't trust or respect or empower the survivors to help themselves,

by providing the proper sort of aid in the proper sequence (morgue + rescue, NOT security force first)

and don't want to do anything for them long term,

how can we handle 40,000 to 100,000?

[Hannah Bell]

134. god, yes, everytime i looked at the same tv it was the same clip of boys with machetes.

[malaise]

171. +!

GENBC -cowards hiding at the airport inciting riots.

[ElmoBlatz]

39. I'm sure the Haitians aren't sitting around watching CNN and shit

[eShirl]

46. +1

[FrenchieCat]

97. And I'm sure that CNN anchors there aren't sharing their water either....

[Hannah Bell]

131. there's been a lot of that. from day one. it's disgusting.

[doc03]

31. Gee why aren't you in charge down there, it's amazing

how much you know about all this stuff. Great idea we drop food and water in a field somewhere and possibly kill a few people and then you have a stampede trampling a few people to death to get to it. Oh what the hell that's just collateral damage. The Media found a couple people complaining about not getting any help and play it over and over to build up ratings. I'm sure everyone is doing the best they can, you know they had an earthquake maybe the infrastructure is damaged and it is one of the poorest nations on earth they probably don't have much in the way of transportation eighter.

[FrenchieCat]

37. The media also wants to build up anger.....

Some here will hear the complaining and start to think some folks are ungrateful,
while others will get mad at the government for not doing a miracle.

In the end, its a win-win for the media.

[doc03]

44. I already heard that from a Repug this morning mouthing off

about the ungrateful bastards and where were they on 9/11?

[Hannah Bell]

132. why do you think they'd want to build anger?

[Waiting For Everyman]

40. You must think our military is really incompetent.

You bet your ass they could do this. Somebody isn't allowing them to. We'll be hearing that reported sometime soon, no doubt.

But that will be too late for these people. Try living without water for 3 days in the heat.

Again, we're letting a city die... while dithering over "who's in charge". And "ooh we can't go in there, they might riot".

Of course dying people are going to get desperate - so don't take them to that point. DUH!

[doc03]

57. I suggest you get your ass down there and start giving

orders. I don't know how competent our military is when a few insurgents in Iraq had us on the defensive for 7 years. I like the way you are using the Cheney word "dithering" kind of makes me question what side you are on. There are like three million desperate people there, you are damn right they have to worry about security. What would you say if they sent armed troops in to distribute water and they had to shoot people to keep from being overran in a human stampede? Then you would be up in arms about that.

[Waiting For Everyman]

62. And some like to avoid valid criticism with the "guilt by association" thing.

(Not that it works.) I've noticed that before. Dragging out that old ploy again, are ya?

I'm so impressed.

[NYC_SKP]

77. hmmm... "dithering":...

That's very familiar. Eerie.

[KakistocracyHater]

122. I'm horrified you think Haitians would stampede each other to get water

but, whatever......

[doc03]

165. So now it is a racial thing I guess, we have had people

trampled trying to get a cheap item at Walmart or get in a rock concert. If a truck loaded with food goes down the street desperate people are going to try and get some for themselves it could be a blood bath. The news Media is trying to build this up into a mess so they can make this Obama's New Orleans.

[qazplm]

200. I think in a similiar situations

AMERICANS would stampede each other to get water. HUMANS do a lot of bad things in the name of absolutely life or death...because when it's life or death, morality starts to look an awful lot like a luxury. Your kid's dying of thirst, someone else has water but won't give it to you, do you walk away or if you have a gun or weapon do you steal some for your kid? Tough call to make in the moment. Whether you are a black Haitian or a white American.

[Codeine]

207. If your children were thirsty

to the point of serious physical distress you'd trample any motherfucker who got in between you and that water, make no mistake.

[Leopolds Ghost]

143. "Three million desperate people, they have to worry about security..what if they had to shoot?"

"Then you'd be up in arms about that." :eyes:

[uppityperson]

75. WTF? eom

[northzax]

79. So you want to put some gis or marines

Between starving, desperate people with good reason to distrust soldiers of all stripes, and food? Maybe we should drop leaflets? Waste a few of our finite and scarce early helo trips on paper? Surely the Haitians will trust the US government and be patient, right? We've been so good to them lately! Would you listen, if you were them?

Think of it from the perspective of someone who just lived through a disaster of biblical proportions. You see a case of water, with a note attached: please take only one so everyone gets some, we'll bring more. Do you take one? Or the whole thing? Do you trust your neighbor to just take one and leave you some? Uh oh, there's only one bottle left. Who gets it? Your kid or the neighbor's kid? You'd let the neighbor have it, right? Cause more is coming. The leaflet said so! And governments never lie to the people of Haiti, right?

Now you're soldier tasked with a pallet of water. You have a thousand bottles to give out and ten soldiers to handle it. But there are two thousand people making the very rational decision under the circumstances, to fight for their share. Do you shoot someone? Do you just get the fuck out of the way? How do you maintain peace to parcel out the water, knowing there isn't enough? You willing to die for that water? Cause the two thousand people coming at you are.

Not so simple all of a sudden, huh? Will you be defending the first soldier to shoot someone? Or calling him a monster?

[doc03]

163. Exactly that was my point, you just can't load up a truck with food

and try taking it to desperate starving people. A truck only carries so many supplies, you may have enough food for a thousand and you have ten thousand trying desperately to get a share you will have disaster. These nitwits just think you can drive a truck somewhere and everyone is going to line up in an orderly line. We have had people trampled to death trying to get in a rock concert or get a cheap DVD player at Walmart.

[PacerLJ35]

95. Uh, the military IS down there

I've got good friends flying down there daily since this all erupted. I'd probably be flying down there if I wasn't stuck in an upgrade course.

[Robeson]

41. Dig yourself.

[Cleita]

42. I think the problem is linear vision.

To be trite, they can't see the forest for the trees, or what they see is no access because of blocked roads to get vehicles across. It seems they haven't thought of walking stuff in. It's not the way they do things and they have no imagination to adapt. Just MHO.

:shrug:

[Waiting For Everyman]

66. Exactly. I agree

What's needed are some gutsy "outside the box" thinkers.

Sadly, the people themselves seem to be very good at that. If only they had some supplies and a few tools.

[Hannah Bell]

133. i heard people down there saying the roads are generally passable.

i saw film of passable roads. i heard someone say traffic is actually kind of heavy. i don't think the roads are the problem, based on that.

[Cleita]

186. This is what some military guy said who was being interviewed on TV yesterday.

He said the roads were impassable because of debris and bodies, so they couldn't get trucks with supplies through. So I don't know who is telling the truth. But if in fact they are impassable, get some of the volunteers waiting there with military escorts to start carrying supplies in on foot. The military is sitting on their hands waiting for orders. Just do it.

[Nikki Stone1]

51. Kerry Sanders doesn't get it either:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show#34887598

[kentuck]

52. They need water most of all.

They can helicopter from off coast and drop pallets of gallon jugs of water. The roads do not have to be clear. They may want to take a couple of door gunners with a couple of m-60's with them?

[Nikki Stone1]

53. "Soldiers are just waiting for the order to go"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show#34887598

Where have we heard that before?

[Cleita]

59. So Colin Powell was being interviewed on Al Jazeera tonight.

His reasoning sounds logical but it's the same old gospel of fear. The desperate Haitians (victims) could be dangerous (read enemy in his eyes). Honestly, this is the thinking. I'm sure terrible things have happened in war zones when relief was delivered but these are ordinary people who have been victims of a natural disaster. I remember reading about the tsunamis in Asia after Katrina and how they were delivered relief by their governments and nearby countries much more quickly and no one rioted.

[Nikki Stone1]

64. Here's another take on it:

http://www.mikeruppert.blogspot.com/

Jan 13, 2009 --- Remember Katrina and Rita? Those hurricanes that prompted a government response which made most of us ashamed to be American? I am certain that the global response to a devastation far worse, as a result of the Port Au Prince quake, will make Bush's Follies look like a well-oiled machine. Not only is the situation on the ground worse; the governments that might send massive aid are financial and economic basket cases. With the death toll already circling 200,000, and almost all critical infrastructure destroyed, the effort needed would have broken most governments before the collapse. It would take a Marshall Plan. So fuggedboudit. The UN can't help much either. No one can. There will be so many stories of courage, heroism, sacrifice and love to arise from this tragedy. At some point I can just see good souls all over the Gulf with private boats trying to do what they can. Take some fresh water and medical supplies in. Maybe pull a few out before anarchy and disease consume everything. It reminds me of a line Jeff Bridges once spoke: "You human beings are at your best when things are worst." -- That is exactly what must change in us.

We will see lots of footage of aid flights and stories about how other nations are rushing to assist. But it will not be possible to hide the fact for long that Haiti is becoming -- or has become -- a mass grave. Haiti is a stark, cold, and unforgiving metaphor for what we all face... all to soon. We need to listen to and acknowledge the suffering of the Haitian people so that someone might acknowledge ours when the time comes. What happens in Haiti needs to be watched cosely and learned from by those with the stomach for it.

[Hannah Bell]

135. *that's* the crux of it. there's planes, personnel, equipment & ships there already.

i'm beginning to think they *want* things to degenerate further.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

58. Do you have any relevant experience?

[Cleita]

60. Do you?

Did all those deer and bears you saved from forest fires bite you?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

72. Yes. I work in a city. We only have a couple of wildland fires a year.

Those are usually out in the burbs. I've spent my whole career in the inner city, so 99.9% of my firefighting experience has been on structure fires. Besides deer don't usually bite and there aren't a lot of bears around. I have also worked 5 natural disasters and served 8 years as a combat medical specialist with the 11th Cav and the 82nd Airborne. I hope that answers your question.

David

[Cleita]

82. Thank you for your service, but sometimes you are a little

anal about things.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

178. Okay. Although I don't consider asking about relevant experience being anal.

[grytpype]

65. Holy Fuck! Since you're an expert in disaster relief, you better get on the next plane!

Get down to Haiti and straighten those guys out!

[Waiting For Everyman]

70. Oh, I forgot! Only "pros" have legitimate views about any subject. Silly me.

Unless that specific experience appears on my resume, any point I make can't be valid. Got it.

'Cause "pros" and "experts" who are paid to do this can't be wrong.

Yeah, I agree. They're doing a bang-up job, alright. "Great job, Brownie!"

There, happy now?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

215. Your armchair quarterbacking is almost amusing...

[DefenseLawyer]

67. Heck of a post, Brownie n/t

[SidDithers]

138. Best reply in this thread...nt

Sid

[RamboLiberal]

69. I'm with you I think it has been a bit of a cluster fuck

and seems to be admitted in NY Times story.

The United States, in fact, took firmer control of the emergency operation on Friday. After three days of chaos and congestion at the airport in Port-au-Prince, Haiti’s government ceded control of it to American technicians, to speed the flow of relief supplies and personnel.

The Federal Aviation Administration, which began managing air traffic into Haitian airspace, issued a stern warning to allow aid to flow in a more orderly way: no planes from the United States, military or civilian, would be allowed to land without express permission from the agency.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/16/world/americas/16haiti.html?hp

[RamboLiberal]

76. How the hell did major powers get aid to Tsunami victims?

Stratford, Connecticut - As they have for 60 years, Sikorsky helicopters are leading the way in easing human suffering in the aftermath of catastrophe, living up to vertical lift's highest calling as envisioned by Igor I. Sikorsky.

Sumatra, Indonesia.This time it's Southeast Asia, where U.S. Navy SH-60F, HH-60H, SH-60B SEAHAWK and MH-60S KNIGHTHAWK helicopters led the way in the American disaster relief effort in the Indonesian province of Aceh where earthquakes and tsunamis ravaged the region on Dec. 26.

Meanwhile, more Navy MH-60S and U.S. Marine Corps CH-53E SUPER STALLION helicopters were headed to the stricken area aboard the multi-purpose amphibious assault ship USS Bonhomme Richard (LHD 6), which cut short its port visit to Guam Dec. 28 and set sail for South Asia to provide humanitarian assistance to the region.

SEAHAWKS from the USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN 72) Carrier Strike Group (CSG) began providing logistical support to disaster victims Jan. 1.

A U.S. 7th Fleet spokesman said the Navy is determined to alleviate the humanitarian catastrophe resulting from the recent natural disaster, and that forward deployed units of the U.S. 7th Fleet train for humanitarian assistance missions to rapidly respond to support relief efforts.

"For the first time in this tragic situation, six SH-60 Seahawk helicopters from Lincoln are actively ferrying food and medical supplies from collection points in the Indonesian town of Banda Aceh to affected locations in Indonesia," said Lt. Cmdr. John Daniels, USS Abraham Lincoln CSG public affairs officer. "Additionally, these helicopters will take injured and otherwise affected people back to Banda Aceh, where they will receive necessary medical and humanitarian attention."

http://www.sikorsky.com/vgn-ext-templating-SIK/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=00de6eb78fa78110VgnVCM1000001382000aRCRD&vgnextchannel=96d99a93bc298110VgnVCM1000001382000aRCRD&vgnextfmt=default&pressvcmid=ee72a96c2e289110VgnVCM1000001382000aRCRD

So why can't we supply like that here. And don't tell me there aren't spots to land. My guess is people would scatter enough to let a helicopter bring down a pallet of food & water, If necessary get a troop chopper drop off troops first to secure the landing area.

[Cleita]

84. You know it.

It's the same "scared of the people" conservatives who seem to be in charge again. Ridiculous.

[northzax]

85. Port au Prince is a city

Or was. A completely different beast than the mostly rural Tsunami areas. And yes, you'd guess that people would move. If they were rational. You can't expect people to be rational in this situation. And that has nothing to do with people being black or white. It has to do with the reality of groups of people in desperate situations with a well founded lack of faith in anyone helping them. In that situation, everything becomes a zero-sum game. Are you going to take the chance that more aid is coming? Or grab what you can? At any price?

[Cleita]

105. Oh really. I didn't know that it is a city. Duh Oh.

:sarcasm: They have cities in Asia you know.

[northzax]

112. Really? There are cities in Asia? Who knew?

Oh, you mean cities actually hit by the 2004 Tsunami? Yeah, which ones were those again? Seriously. Which city over 100,000 was wiped out by the Tsunami again? Please let me know.

[Hannah Bell]

136. thank you. island nations. nor did we hear stories about how any moment they were all going to

start killing each other, even though indonesia is as crowded as haiti.

[hack89]

148. How long did it take for the navy to get there? nt

[winyanstaz]

80. darn right...get the military out of the way and let the responders do their jobs this time...

Next thing you will be seeing Blackwater beating the crap out of the Haitians and taking their guns.

[PacerLJ35]

96. The military are responders

Who do you think is flying, shipping and eventually trucking this stuff into and around Haiti? Find me an aid organization that operates 600 airlift aircraft capable of flying tens of thousands of pounds of cargo per aircraft and land on unimproved strips, and perhaps I'll concede the point

[MilesColtrane]

189. You think the Red Cross has mobile radar units, cranes, and air traffic controllers?

[LeftyFingerPop]

83. Jesus Fucking Christ.

Every country in the world is working on this.

It is a nightmare there.

The road off the bay has a seven foot drop for the trucks receiving goods off the ships.

Get off your computer and do it yourself if you think you can do better.

[PacerLJ35]

108. +1

If I wasn't stuck in a training course, I'd volunteer to fly down there right now.

[Waiting For Everyman]

86. You can all criticize Gen. Honore now too, who also knows nothing of course...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4227437&mesg_id=4227437

But the DU common wisdom is so much more credible than he is. He's probably only saying this because he must be a RW operative too. It couldn't be true, now, could it? Oh, no, of course not.

This place is unbelievable sometimes. Grinding the usual axe has no place in this. This is about peoples' lives. It matters. The fact that it's being screwed up matters. And if it takes saying so to speed it up, well then, tough cookies! I think we can endure the terrible inconvenience of hearing what might be construed as criticism, for a moment or two.

I hope every reporter gets on this, and stays on it, until mass supplies get to these people.

[Taitertots]

87. So how much are you willing to spend to be prepared for everything that could happen?

They should just be sitting at home willing it to happen like you I guess. I mean obviously from the comfort of your couch you have determined they are not working hard enough.

[kestrel91316]

89. Get your ass to DC and tell the president that YOU are the most qualified

person to oversee relief efforts in Haiti. Right NOW.

You are, aren't you??

(crickets chirping)

[UTUSN]

90. Things are just so clear behind a keyboard. n/t

[RamboLiberal]

93. And then when there are riots in the streets there will be another excuse

for not getting food & water to the people. And I'm not blaming the U.S. It's an international clusterfuck and the dysfunctional Haitian government is not a help. Note it took till today to turn over authority at the airport to U.S. It looks like a repeat of NO on a larger scale. Meanwhile on MSNBC they are reporting water is available in the city - at a price. Maybe we need to get troops in the city to confiscate from the black marketers.

We were told this is a layered effort. First, the government of Haiti must choose distribution points, the World Food program then works up a distribution plan and then U.N. forces in Haiti provide security with the help of the U.S. military to get the food out. The bottom line: it's not going to happen until tomorrow.

Meanwhile, the people wait.

After a day of asking questions, we have an idea why there is such a wait for supplies. But the Haitians don't, they have no communications.

"We have no idea why we are waiting," said one person.

We did see some food and water distributed today but it was on a small scale for such a huge disaster. Nothing about the distribution was organized, but it was welcome all the same.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/supplies-arriving-haitians-remain-helpless/story?id=9575634

[LeftyFingerPop]

98. Since the country was fucked for years...

The earthquake fucked it harder and faster.

They will be lucky if they survive as a sovereign entity after this.

[Hannah Bell]

137. "The government of haiti" rules at the will of the gov't of the US, as demonstrated

by the aristide coup. It's beyond ridiculous.

[SeattleGirl]

99. I'm sure that the people in Haiti who are there to help would

gladly wave a magic wand and fix the infrastructure so that they get get medical supplies, food and water out to all who need them.

But they don't have magic wands.

What they have is the desire to help, and the knowledge to do that.

Lay off, would ya?

They are doing the best they can given the situation there.

Not everybody is George W. Bush.

[PacerLJ35]

100. They aren't packing for a weekend retreat to the lake...

So it takes a little time to get mobilized and get down there. There's WAY more things to think about that you probably aren't even close to considering.

[piedmont]

101. Unrec. This is possibly 100 times the magnitude of Katrina, in HAITI...

probably the worst location in the western hemisphere for this to happen. There was no warning-- unlike, say the WEEK of watching Katrina roll in on the satellite images. There was no evacuation prior to the event. And this was a more populated area to start with. This isn't going to be a feel-good story, and there never was the slightest possibility that it would be. The fact is that many people who survived the earthquake are going to die because the ports and airport can't be made in 72 hrs to do what they had never done before Tuesday.

[FrenchieCat]

103. That's the saddest part.....

this is a disaster of epic proportion!

and like you said, cannot be "made" into a feel good story....
ever.

[SidDithers]

104. ...

Sid

[donheld]

110. What are the "technicality games?"

You think the logistics for an operation like this is easy. Who's suppose to be in charge? There's
little if any infrastructor for an effort like this. I'm sure everybody is doing the best they can. If
You think you could do better...

[Hannah Bell]

114. Some of the newscasters were hyping potential violence from day one.

If they're worried about violence, best to get supplies out as quickly as possible. Prolonging it = provoking violence.

[spanone]

123. i hate these fucking posts.get on a goddamn plane and go help instead of bitching.

[neverforget]

124. It's been 4 days. The military needs a plan so as to distribute the supplies

and provide security where needed. Those plans need to identify distribution points for food and water: where are they located, how large are they, how many people work them, how many troops are needed for security, supplies for those troops to include tents, water, food, fuel, communications, etc. (Every American serviceman that stays on the ground needs to be supported too.) Now, multiply those logistics times 100 as an example for what is needed. That's just for food and water and not medical care and SAR teams. Then the people have to be housed from the elements. And the infrastructure is destroyed so that is going to slow everything down regardless of how fast the outside world can supplies to Haiti. Do you get my drift? A snap of the finger isn't going to get the military to move any faster than is humanly possible.

That's just the receiving end. All those supplies need to be gathered at ports and airfields, inventoried, packaged on pallets and sent to the right place in the States to be sent to Haiti. The aircraft and the ships need to be in the right places and ready to go with crews. When this disaster happened, most likely a lot of the aircraft needed for this mission were scattered throughout the world supporting other missions or training. That's what the military does, they train and support on going missions. The aircraft that are being used now, were most likely at their home base for whatever reason. Anyway, once those supplies get there, they need to be distributed which means you need a system to get that done. As a reminder, the Haitian infrastructure was destroyed in the earthquake so that has to be dealt with. Which means engineering units need to go in and they need to be supplied and supported. All of this takes time to gather.

It's not all about just getting the supplies there. There is a lot that goes into getting a rescue operation going.

[WolverineDG]

126. Get your ass to Haiti, then, & show 'em how it's done nt

[SoCalDem]

139. Logistics always bog things down.

There are 2.5 million people in that city, and they have just lost about everything they owned. There are no buses coming to take them to another place. Imagine yourself on a truck with enough water for 500 people, and there is a crowd of 5 thousand people, all trying to get some water for themselves now, and some more for later..or for their loved ones who could not stand in the sun, waiting.

Now imagine hundreds of young men with machetes & possibly guns.

One hothead dead-ender kid can light the tinderbox, and we have a Somalia situation.

I would bet that many of these people have no access to phone or radio, so they only know what passes from person to person.. rumors..
Well-meaning people go to emergency situations with good intentions, but some situations are just unmanageable, and the best case scenario is usually just a case of not getting any aid workers killed and having them no kill any of the disaster victims, when things get out of hand.


It would be great to "sector" the areas, and make the crowds smaller, but we're at Day 5 already..:(

Time passes too quickly when you are organizing aid, and too slowly when you need the aid :(

[backscatter712]

140. Katrina doesn't even compare to this.

Katrina killed 1,836 people, according to Wikipedia.

When I was watching Olbermann earlier today, he said the death toll was 140,000, and it's probably gonna be a hell of a lot higher than that.

And we're talking about a third-world country with a half-broken government before the quake, enormous levels of poverty, little infrastructure, and after the quake hit, the roads are blocked with rubble, the ports are out of commission until they can be dredged, the airport is only now working again after the US Air Force came in with air-traffic-control equipment, for a single airport with one runway and a tiny tarmac.

I'd like to see you do better...

Unrec for yet another hater.

[Leopolds Ghost]

142. "Unrec for yet another hater"... "Katrina is insignificant"...if we couldn't handle Katrina, then..?

if we couldn't handle Katrina, then..?

if we view 2,000 (really more like 5,000 counting "missing" people) deaths
at home as "insignificant" compared to tens of thousands abroad, then...?

Was Rwanda "not comparable" to the Holocaust?

Was Johnstown "not comparable" to the SF earthquake?

I'm getting tired of this sit on our ass bullshit mentality.

Coming from the same people who have NO FUCKING PROBLEM with how our Administration is treating
post-disaster relief here at home, in New Orleans, in a city with, as you say, MUCH FEWER DEATHS
but 200,000 displaced, what does Obama and the Republicans and Blue Dog Dems want to do?
Tear down all the city's remaining (undamaged) public housing! And build a Wal-Mart!

No, Port-au-Prince is just the SAME MENTALITY AS KATRINA ON A MASS SCALE.

I am not encouraged just because a few people on top of the same global relief structure
are different from 4 years ago.

[nomaco-10]

146. Why have people around here gotten so damn mean to this poster....

I get what the poster is trying to say. People here anymore, just want to pick apart and tear down other members for no good reason. No wonder the dem party may expect losses in the next mid election, we are notorious for eating our own and forming circular firing squads.

It is obvious that this post was written by a kindhearted, compassionate person that is frustrated over the slow response time for the poor, desperate people of Haiti.

I thought we were the party that was based on, and embraced kindhearted, compassionate people. I thought we were the good guys.

[hack89]

149. Because the OP, while kind hearted, is also ignorant

besides insulting to all those military and civilian relief workers doing everything they can in a nearly impossible situation?

[nomaco-10]

152. Uninformed about what it takes to handle a disaster of this monumental....

proportions, absolutely, but some of the responses have been down right despicable. The op is frustrated, maybe even "ignorant", but not deserving of some of the hateful responses they received.
Just my opinion.

[treestar]

211. so I wonder if they also yell at the doctor who is trying to operate on

a loved one?

They are not being kind and loving, they are attacking the people trying to help for not doing it damn fast enough for them, forget the realities!

[Junkdrawer]

151. The meager supplies at the airport doesn't even begin to meet the need...

So, rather than distribute what they have, everything is on hold waiting for adequate supplies and security.

That's my take...

[lebkuchen]

153. When the media asks the question "So, what's the holdup?"

those who should be able to supply a reasonable response have no response to offer. Not very encouraging.

[Robb]

156. Glad to hear you're heading over to set things straight. nt

[lebkuchen]

158. Have you personally done anything?

Like donated money?

[lebkuchen]

160. I didn't think so.

[Robb]

162. I'm in the 82nd Airborne, of course

...Riding the first Jeep in. Where are you posting from? :eyes:

[lebkuchen]

164. EUCOM

Now get to work.

[Robb]

155. Glad to hear you're heading over to set things straight. nt

[lebkuchen]

166. Out of curiosity

are you still at the airport?

[maddezmom]

159. Southcom Officials Provide Haiti Update

Southcom Officials Provide Haiti Update
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, Jan. 16, 2010 – Officials at U.S. Southern Command headquarters here provided a recap last night of the previous 48 hours of developments in the Haiti relief effort.

Southcom is managing the U.S. military aspects of the earthquake-relief mission.

Officials noted that Joint Task Force Haiti had been established to oversee U.S. military relief efforts in Haiti, with Army Lt. Gen. P.K. “Ken” Keen in command.

As of last night, 4,200 U.S. military personnel were currently supporting task force operations, within Haiti and from Navy and Coast Guard vessels offshore. An additional 6,300 military personnel are scheduled to arrive through the weekend.

Current U.S. military efforts are focused on working with the United Nations Stabilization Mission in Haiti, international relief organizations and local responders to provide search and rescue, distribute aid and assess damage to key infrastructure, officials said.

With approval from the Haitian government, U.S. Air Force air traffic control and airfield management personnel are managing air operations into the international airport at the national capital of Port-au-Prince. The airfield is open for 24-hour operations and has a 90-aircraft-per-day capability.

The aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson and the U.S. Navy destroyer USS Higgins are operating off the Haitian coast in support of the task force. USS Carl Vinson has 19 embarked helicopters flying airlift missions in support of relief efforts. The carrier also is delivering more than 30 pallets of relief supplies for distribution to affected areas.

Overall, 24 helicopters were providing relief to the people of Haiti as of last night, officials said.

The 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit, embarked aboard the amphibious ship USS Bataan and composed of more than 2,200 Marines is scheduled to arrive in Haiti on Jan. 18 with heavy-lift and earth-moving equipment and additional medical-support capabilities. The amphibious ships USS Carter Hall, USS Fort McHenry, USS Underwood and USS Normandy also are en route to Haiti.

The hospital ship USNS Comfort left Baltimore this morning en route to Haiti, with about 600 medical personnel. It’s projected to arrive in Haitian waters on Jan. 21. Comfort's capabilities include fully equipped operating rooms, a 500-bed hospital facility, digital radiological services, a medical laboratory, a pharmacy, an optometry lab, a CT-scan capability and two oxygen-producing plants. Each ship is equipped with a helicopter deck capable of landing large military helicopters.

An initial company of more than 100 paratroopers from the 82nd Airborne Division arrived in Haiti on Jan. 14, and 600 additional paratroopers are scheduled to arrive over the next few days to augment U.N. security and assist with search-and-rescue missions.

Since 2005, U.S. Southern Command has led U.S. military support to 14 major relief missions, including assistance to Haiti in September 2008. During that mission, U.S. military forces from USS Kearsarge and other units airlifted 3.3 million pounds of aid to communities that were devastated by a succession of major storms.

All military efforts are in support of the U.S. Agency for International Development, which is orchestrating U.S. government contributions to the relief mission.

(From a U.S. Southern Command news release.)


Related Sites:
U.S. Southern Command
Special Report: Haiti Earthquake Relief

[SidDithers]

177. Actual facts! Well done...

you should post this as its own OP, so it will get more attention.

Sid

[Myrina]

161. Sure, and the first Haitian that gets shot trying to storm the tent ...

... will cause an international uproar about "US Troops are Power Hungry Thugs".

Someone on posted a comment on a Facebook messaging list that struck me: Pakistan is the one country that is most experienced with earthquake recovery and they haven't lifted a FINGER to help the situation in Haiti. Interesting, no?


:shrug:

[Xenotime]

167. If there is anything more Obama could do..they would be doing it.

[lebkuchen]

169. Besides, H. Clinton will arrive any day now to assess the situation

What a relief.

As for myself, I've seen all the dead bodies from CNNI that I care to. TV now off after 6 days, so I guess I'll miss her visit, and what relief she can personally provide.

I hope someone tells her she'll need her own soapbox and megaphone, plus batteries.

[Xenotime]

170. Her visit will bring much value

She will then know what the other countries need to do to provide aid.

[lebkuchen]

174. This can't be done stateside?

Her visit will add to the nightmare. Now that we know UN doctors have a security problem, I see Clinton's visit as a huge security nightmare at a time when her guards should be used to secure UN medical tents.

Who's going to cover Clinton's back? Blackwater?

[watercolors]

175. You are just another A--Hole spilling crap!!

Have you no isea of the logistics that havce to take place?

[Pavulon]

176. Wow, another monkey fucking a football thread. Logistics background here

any one else with a similar background can chime in. Large operations require "on ramping" of equipment or food on one side. They require offramping on the other side. So once we start putting tons of stuff on the ground with c130's we use smaller transport (helicopters) to distribute aid. We will need to bring in dozers, HET, cranes, as well to open up ground transport. No port means no intermodal transport, no easy offload. It is not effective to just begin throwing shit out of helicopters into fields and letting people fight it out over supplies.

These things require focused use of resources. That means they cant be everywhere doing everything for everyone. Someone (or a group) decided where to concentrate resources to do the most good and executed their plan. People will die, the purpose is to plan resource allocation to limit that, not possible to prevent all loss of life.

[FedUpWithIt All]

180. The end of this Rachel Maddow report, pretty much tells the story.

"They are just waiting for the orders to go, they are ready to go, they want to go."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show#34887598

[ThatsMyBarack]

183. Is W eating a birthday cake someplace?

[GreenStormCloud]

210. Who cares if he is? N/T

[WilliamPitt]

185. (facepalm)

[B Calm]

191. Why can't they do parachute air drops of food to the people? They

wouldn't even have to land at the busy airport.

[GreenStormCloud]

213. The the strong young men get the food, the children and elderly get nothing.

You have to have some sort of distribution system to prevent the armed gangs from taking all the supplies. It is total anarchy on the ground, and in anarchy, there will always be some who will exploit the situation, using violence to satisfy their desires. That is just the way humans are. Until you have the ability to control the human predators, you can't help anybody.

[tonysam]

196. Don't compare Haiti to New Orleans now

New Orleans was no big deal. Just a mere thousand people died there, after all.

:sarcasm:

[SidDithers]

197. New Orleans was (still is) a huge fucking deal...

and Haiti is orders of magnitude larger.


Sid

[okieinpain]

202. haiti is not new orleans. there is no leader ship there. you just

can't drop supplies any where there is an opening, that would be a waste of time and money. I understand the anxiety people are feeling about helping, but you have to be-careful that the help you intend doesn't make things worse.

[qazplm]

204. it must be hard

being so much smarter and kinder than everyone else. How do you do it?

[rustydog]

208. Fly down there and take control expert in disaster relief

Be our guest.

[treestar]

212. Then go do it yourself!

Really, this is too unreasonable for words. You act like it's a board game or something.

[keroro gunsou]

216. sigh...

those who can do, those that can't armchair quarterback.

this snark is meant for all the naysayers and bitchers. if you think you can do better, then get your punk asses on a plane, go down there, and do better.

yes, it's a clusterfuck of immense proportions, so a little caution is in order. even before the quake haiti wasn't exactly the safest place, i've read reports here culled from various news outlets about roaming gangs beating their way to the supplies (or at least trying to) it's sad, but everyone involved is trying to ensure that everyone gets help, not just those that can beat their way into the queue and then sell it to someone else.

[melm00se]

217. damned if they stay out of harm's way but don't deliver relief supplies

and damned if they defend themselves and deliver relief supplies.

[LynneSin]

218. Oh so you think you could do better? Pul-lease, don't make me laugh

You think we can just whizz in there and drop this stuff off? Where, even if the major airport by Port-au-Prince wasn't severely damaged during the Earthquake, this is still a very small airport that does not have the capacity to bring in the large quanities of planes needed to carry in the supplies.

Sure you could go to nearby Cuba or even use Gitmo as a hub, but the docks were damaged - so how do we unload this stuff.

There is neighboring Dominican Republic that does have a much larger airport. But that's a 12-18 trip by road where there is absolutely no guarentee there will be enough fuel to get the products into Haiti.

So you tell me Mr "Oh I could do this better" - how do you propose to make it all better?

[tammywammy]

220. No it's not like Katrina at all. n/t

[SidDithers]

221. Kick for exposure...nt

Sid