Why is it always a choice of doing the wrong thing or nothing at all?

[last1standing]

When this administration began it was presented with the meltdown of our economic system. They could have done the right thing by allowing mortgage holders to renegotiate the terms of their loans and saved the day while propping up property values but instead we were told we had to send a trillion dollars to the banks or do nothing at all.

When it came time for a stimulus package the Dems could have used the vast bulk of the money spent on job creation and long term infrastructure but instead we were told it had to be 40% tax cuts or nothing at all.

When health care reform hit congress they could have heard the views of doctors, nurses and the Democratic base on the merits of single-payer, but instead we're now told that it's lukewarm insurance care reform or nothing.

In each of these situations and many more, the views of progressives and liberals aren't just voted down or dismissed after debate, they're never even allowed to be voiced. Our views have been completely ignored by this administration in favor of centrist and republican talking points. Instead we get leaked insults from the white house and snide comments tossed at those who voice our opinions and frustration - a model that has been heartily echoed by some of the lesser voices on the internet.

So why is it always a choice between doing the wrong thing or nothing at all? Why is a Democratic administration pushing for policies that didn't work under bush* and certainly won't work now?

And even more to the point, why is this administration doing everything it can to alienate the very people who worked hardest to put him in the white house?

[HillbillyBob]

1. WELL Said!

Nicer way that what I have had to say.
Then again I have been ill for a long time and have been through the mill trying to get help..I finally did, but I have to raise hell (since I cannot raise funds) with a lot of doctors and so called helpful representatives.

[ice window]

2. Gallup has your answer.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/123854/conservatives-maintain-edge-top-ideological-group.aspx

October 26, 2009
Conservatives Maintain Edge as Top Ideological Group

Compared with 2008, more Americans “conservative” in general

by Lydia Saad

PRINCETON, NJ -- Conservatives continue to outnumber moderates and liberals in the American populace in 2009, confirming a finding that Gallup first noted in June. Forty percent of Americans describe their political views as conservative, 36% as moderate, and 20% as liberal. This marks a shift from 2005 through 2008, when moderates were tied with conservatives as the most prevalent group.

[last1standing]

3. Conservatives didn't win the last two elections - the last one in a landslide.

Perhaps if Gallop had asked those interviewed what they thought "conservative", "moderate", and "liberal" meant, we would have some enlightenment as to how a country with a large plurality of so-called conservatives could end up electing a super-majority of politicians who professed liberal beliefs.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sendero]

4. Americans are stupid?

Well, we knew that already.

[Junkdrawer]

7. Gallup is a joke....

Bad joke at that...

[Bluenorthwest]

19. My polling tells me that 99% of Americans

Can not define the difference between a 'moderate' and a 'conservative' and a 'liberal'. My polling suggests that those who can not exactly say what a moderate is can not really be one.
So while 90% of the right thinking people are wrong, and 60% of the wrong thinking people are right, really one has to be able to define what makes one a 'moderate' or one is no such thing.
It is hilarious, because even on DU the question fails them. If I am a liberal, and you are a moderate, what the fuck is the difference between us, as you see it? Either they can not or they are ashamed to address that difference. So I doubt they understand the Gallup question at all, at all, at all.
Why don't you tell me. What is the difference between a 'moderate' and a 'conservative'? To me, both groups are just right wingers with a sack of superstitions and prejudices and greed. I assume they do not identify themselves that way, but how do they identify? What makes you less liberal than me? Specifically. Read, begin.

[last1standing]

26. It was just a zombie troll trying to spread bullshit.

I wonder what name they'll come back with tomorrow?

[spanone]

25. so that's how Obama got elected...i knew all those 'conservatives' voted for him

:sarcasm:

[Laelth]

6. Good questions. k&r n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[NNN0LHI]

9. I am convinced no matter what President Obama did about half the people would be pissed

Single-payer? When the people seen the deduction for that taken out of their paychecks every week a good chunk of progressives would have went ape shit about that too.

Can't make everyone happy.

No matter what you do.

Don

[last1standing]

10. So it couldn't even be discussed or debated? Not even a little?

We were never even allowed to propose single payer, or any of the other stuff, for debate. You can dismiss us as just wanting to complain but if you don't even let us offer our ideas then you are doing little more than insulting us without hearing us first.

[Edweird]

14. From what I've seen, 2/3's of the population support single payer outright.

Most importantly, the vast majority of people that worked to get him elected are in that 2/3's. The majority of the 1/3 that support the McCain rehash we are getting will never vote for him. EVER.

[stray cat]

11. American elected W twice - in a democracy the "real progressives" are a minority voting block

[last1standing]

12. So you don't think bush* stole the white house twice - or even once. Interesting.

At least that explains why you felt the need to use quotation marks around real progressives.

[lunatica]

13. JP Morgan just announced it made a 3.28 billion profit and is whining about it

because in their eyes they're losing money because foreclosures and defaults are still growing...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/15/jpmorgan-profit-4q-bank-p_n_424421.html

JPMorgan Profit 4Q: Bank Profit Soars To $3.28 Billion

NEW YORK — JPMorgan Chase & Co.'s $3.28 billion profit report carried a sobering message: Consumers are still struggling to pay off their loans, posing a threat to a strong economic recovery.

Even as the bank reported Friday its earnings more than quadrupled from $702 million during the final three months of 2009, JPMorgan said it's not finished setting aside money to cover failed loans. In other words, it expects many more consumers to default to default on mortgages and other loans.

JPMorgan is the first of the big banks to announced fourth-quarter earnings. Its profits came from investment banking and asset management, businesses that have boomed as Wall Street remains far ahead of Main Street. And analysts expect other banks to show similar results.

JPMorgan said it's uncertain about the timing of a possible rebound, repeating a warning it has now issued for several quarters. CEO Jamie Dimon was blunt during a conference call with analysts, saying, "We don't know when the recovery is."

more...

edited to correct 'their' to 'they're'

[last1standing]

15. Yep. We did the wrong thing so the problem remains but a few people made billions.

Of course we're still going to have to fix the economy with trillions more dollars but it's nothing the second round of bank bailouts won't fix. Right?

[lunatica]

16. Their profit at this time is obscene

The reality is they're causing the foreclosures. They're the ones who refuse to negotiate new mortgages which forces people to default. It's obscene. But when tax revenues dry up because people pay no more taxes, either property or income, State or Federal, they're golden goose will be dead just like in the fable and with the same consequences.

[last1standing]

24. Its criminal.

But much like torturers, this administration won't go after those who have done catastrophic damage to this country.

[DisgustedInMN]

17. BRAVO!

I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer to those questions, merely insult thrown back at those of us that "dare" to ask them.

There's a storm brewing.

[last1standing]

18. Not so much a storm as a hurricane.

I know that many, many progressives, liberals and just plain, non-political people who still vote are absolutely disgusted with this administration and the lack of any policies that are geared to help the working class. No one other than political shills want this insurance care plan to pass and everyone else is also sickened by these mega-bailouts that haven't helped actual workers.

The shills and pundits can cry that without the bank bailouts the economy would have crashed but for millions of Americans, it still did. Over 15% of workers aren't able to work and another 5%-10% are underemployed.

They can berate us for "allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good" but in many states this insurance care plan will allow the continued sale of catastrophic plans as the base which means a 40% co-pay for any procedure or even a visit. How many working class people can afford 40% of a $50,000 bill for heart surgery, or $200,000 for cancer treatment? This bill will do nothing to stave off financial ruin for millions yet will flood insurance corporations with billions.

Yet we're the bad guys who need to be insulted and bullied for not falling in line.

Yes, there's a storm brewing alright.

[tomp]

20. we have always had an anti-progressive government.

that is the essential purpose of govt. under capitalism.

did you think otherwise? on what basis?

[last1standing]

22. If we were an absolute capitalist society you would be correct.

But instead we are a capitalist society with socialist institutions.

Regardless, when a candidate for office campaigns on pushing a progressive agenda, only to completely ignore those who voted for that agenda after he/she attains office, there is reason to be pissed.

[robinlynne]

21. damn good question!

[last1standing]

23. Funny that there are no damn good answers.

n/t

[robinlynne]

34. The answer is that that is not REALLY the choice at all. That is what the blue dogs

SAY is the choice. They lie.

[branders seine]

27. because doing the right thing is not part of their agenda.

[treestar]

28. It's not a company that can be run as a business

The government has all those rules and laws attached and limits on its powers and roles given to each officeholder.

It can help but not 100%.

there's the old saying that dictators can make the trains run on time. But we're willing to give that up.

There was a thread about how the Chinese can have these trains that are really cool and get them places really fast. We could never get them because of our cumbersome political process.

But there are many other values that come along with that cumbersome process.

[last1standing]

29. How does that explain not even hearing our voices or discussing our views?

It doesn't.

And I get really sick of centrists acting like they're the only ones who understand how the legal process works. Progressives know its a cumbersome process but we also know that if our views aren't included in the mix of debate there's absolutely no chance of them, or a compromised version of them, ever becoming law.

The one thing that can be said about nearly every major initiative since Obama took the white house is that they start out from the center and move to the right from there while insulting and dismissing any progressive viewpoints. We're not even allowed at the table. They kick us out of the meetings like they did in the healthcare debate.

So please don't insult us even further by suggesting that we're just too simple minded to understand how it all works. We understand all too well and we realize that we're still on the outside looking in.

[treestar]

30. You're the one that said wrong thing or nothing at all

If you understand how it works, then you'd be resigned to the fact that the far left will generally get little of what it wants fast enough. You wouldn't be snarky or impatient and saying it'd be so simple if they'd just do such and such.

The progressives do get heard - I'm sick of that complaint, too. They get heard and that affects the debate, if no one wanted single payer at all and no bill were ever introduced on that score the whole country would be further to the right as it wouldn't be in question as anything that a member of Congress would introduce. And that committee is hearing about it.

The POTUS is going to start not with those bills but with bills that can make it out of committee, etc. That's only common sense.

You are not on the outside looking in - kucinich did introduce single payer and he's a Congressman. You're no worse off than a right winger who wants the government to stay completely out of healthcare. They don't complain about left out. They yell harder to get what they want.

So yelling about how single payer would be best would be far more likely to get some little progress to the left (if not single payer) and marching on the mall about it (and you have to do it louder to counteract the fact the M$M would not cover it, only the right) instead of complaining, calling the Dems corporate whores and the like, claiming better campaigning and different approaches would have worked. That's one thing i admire repukes for. You don't see them doing that and taking victim stance. They just keep on and on. If we could only do that, we would have single payer in our lifetimes.

[last1standing]

31. I never said it would be simple. Not once. So you are spreading untruths.

The rest of what you posted is equally untrue and its sad that these republican talking points pass for Democratic debate in 2010. I also love how you assume none of us is working to change things in DC and just calling ourselves victims (while there are a thousand threads of centrists crying about having to put up with us).

The problem is people like yourself who absolutely refuse to acknowledge that starting out with centrist stances only leads to republican laws. You claim to want progressive values but then attack anyone who calls for them. How exactly does that work?

We really are working on this, and this is all part of the process - disabusing the populace of centrist talking points and propaganda taken directly from the fax machines of the RNC.

[truedelphi]

32. iT IS because the Powers that be own the Puppet politicians,

So it will always be the wrong thing or nothing.

[slipslidingaway]

33. knr nt

[Nikki Stone1]

35. Amen.

K & R

[dickthegrouch]

36. The whole law making system is flawed

When the result is 2000 pages of complete rubbish that no-one can understand, because it has to be interpreted and rationalized against the existing 2,000,000(?) pages of other federal laws; the process itself is broken.

When the President doesn't have a line item veto, the process is broken. When the President's only choice is to sign or waste the work thus far achieved, the process is broken.

When completely irrelevant items can be tacked on for expediency, the process is broken.

When the only way to correct any contradictions between the new and existing law is to go through expensive litigation all the way to SCOTUS, the process is broken.

[salguine]

37. Because they're not interested in fixing anything. The Democratic Party plays the role

of good cop to the Republican's bad cop, but they're both working for the same moneyed interests to preserve the status quo. That's why whenever the public gets tired of one, they think they're going to change something by putting the other party in there for a while, but still nothing ever changes. People haven't seemed to catch on to the fact that nothing changes in the past, but I think that it's beginning to dawn on even the dimmest bulbs out there that neither party is going to go to the mat for the little guy.

[last1standing]

38. I couldn't agree more.

n/t