MNSNBC showing MREs short hauled and dropped

[nadinbrzezinski]

and yes a few fights as well.

MREs should survive the 20 feet drop.

[rcrush]

1. FIGHTS!!? Impossible!

People are calm and orderly by nature!

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. I know but reaching this place it is the

balance of risking fights on the ground, or not getting food there. EMRATS will come this way now.

[Hannah Bell]

34. No, it's dropping supplies that's "impossible," per the "experienced, knowledgeable" DUers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. And yes fights are breaking

they are desperate so that does not shock me.

[Warpy]

5. No one who has ever experienced real hunger or dehydration

questions why this is happening. Of course it's happening. Short drops of MREs into unsafe areas is the most humane thing to do.

[Schema Thing]

10. And that's why I wish we'd put that equation first.

In 2010, in a relatively accessible place like Haiti, within 2 days the population should be comfortably reassured that they are going to have all the drinking water and "Plumpy'nut" survival food they need.

That way there is no need to be doing the bullshit "security" dance on days 4, 5, and 6 of a disaster.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Ever worked a disaster? I have

you tell me it is a bullshit dance

[Schema Thing]

15. I was just paraphrasing General Honore.

It's a bullshit dance, much like it was in Katrina. Poor black people are not inherently evil or violent.

What security is needed is minor, and secondary to saving lives. This is a country hit by an earthquake, not a country going through a civil war.

And yes, I'm well aware that you've worked disaster.


If you fuck around being present, clutching pearls, working out "security" w/o getting water into places that need it - THEN yeah, security becomes a real issue I suppose (not that it was EVER nearly so big a deal as they tried to make it during Katrina).

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Honore is not on the ground

and he can kiss my Lilly white ass.

When he TOOK COMMAND, and stormed in, after four days mind you... HE HAD a full security contingent with him. and had to order his troops to AIM their muzzles down.

It is a good show, and people will lap it up, but HE KNOWS better... and he is not doing any good.

[Pirate Smile]

18. and that doesn't include how we have days and days to prepare for a hurricane which we

certainly do not for an earthquake.

[Schema Thing]

19. But that wasn't Honore, that was Bush.

[Pirate Smile]

22. I wasn't saying it was Honore. I was just talking about the ability to be ready to

respond immediately with aid. There is a difference re notice and time. I'm not bashing anyone. I was just pointing out a difference in different types of natural disasters.

[Hekate]

24. That is something Californians know all too well. Earthquakes are without warning.

Most of us (though not all) have the means to prepare by laying up supplies, however, unlike the 80% of Haitians who live in abject poverty.

Hekate

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. And I can prepare as much as I can

but if the building drops... there go my supplies.

[Hekate]

26. Exactly. Then we'll be in the same dire straits as the Haitians and New Orleanians. nt

[Schema Thing]

20. Oh geez... you only do these arguments to put your "experience' out there

I don't even think we disagree that much.


I'm proud of what we've done, and I think it will turn out that overall, this has been handled very well.


I just think we can do much better in the first 24-48 hours, and that will make it even LESS important than it already is to do the bullshit security dance.

If it was up to me, at least half of our soldiers, both in New Orleans and here in Haiti, wouldn't even be carrying rifles around; for the very reason Honore ordered them to point the muzzles at the ground.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. You of course are aware that many of the troops do not carry rifles

but that some do.

Would you like the cops that have come from around the world to leave their side arms behind too?

And no I am making a point, he is saying things that make him look very good...(which tells me the man is planning to run for office) but is not telling you the whole story.

[northernlights]

27. I don't think the hold up was the "security dance"

I think the general is a fucking liar and just trying to repair his own pathetic legacy.

Unlike Katrina, for which there was days of warning -- really years knowing that someday there would be "the big one" -- earthquakes strike without warning.

Unlike Katrina, which was on our own soil, this was too long a distance for helicopters to just drop in the next day -- except for the nearest neighbors (the Dominican Republic had their 4 helicopters in the next morning).

There is a damaged airport with a single runway, which needed to be cleaned up and set up.

The only other way to fly in large quantities of supplies is to bring them closer on ships, and those take a couple days to get there, and probably a couple days to get as fully loaded with supplies as possible. It's not like they're sitting in the nearest harbor filled with medical supplies, bottled water and MREs just waiting for an earthquake to strike nearby.

So a couple days needed to coordinate the effort -- so we aren't running around like chickens with heads cut off and accomplishing nothing -- and a couple more days to get the ships close enough for the copters to start running missions = 4 days. That would be...today.

[qazplm]

28. people are inherently violent

hungry and thirsty desperate people are even moreso.

This aint about black white, go to upper Minnesota, put them in a similar situation, and there will be riots, and violence.

Not about evil, it's about desperation and survival.

[Schema Thing]

29. no, there are not automatic riots and violence

and my point is to get survival basics - mainly water, to them before they get too desperate, instead of doing the "oooh, we've got a big security issue to overcome before we put our men in the scary distressed peoples way". I call this 50 caliber pearl clutching. If lives are at risk, put lives at risk to save them. We KNOW people are dying from the disaster - we don't know, and don't even have good reason to believe, that people are going to attack the rescuers; especially not in the first 48 hours.

Hell, time and time again, populations, Haiti, New Orleans, elsewhere - prove that they will get busy helping themselves if they can function. Which they can if they have water and 1500 calories.

It's like we see a natural disaster and think the people have all been turned into flesh eating zombies overnight.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. So tell me how are you gong to move

the First MEU, or for that matter the Mexican Navy Ship Huasteco, any faster than they are already moving?

Pixie dust?

Not like this is around the corner.

Yes it takes four days for the Comfort to get for her home port in Baltimore to Haiti. It takes the Huasteco four days to sail from Veracruz to Haiti... and that does not take into account the time it takes to LOAD THEM AND PREP them for deployment.

This is reality.

And yes, whether you like this or not, security is not a dance... it is a NECESSITY. Why do you think the two freelancers, well meaning mind you, from the Dominican Republic were shot? This is breaking up right now. I will clue you in... they had no protection.

Watch the TV and try to notice the Blue Helmets.

[Schema Thing]

32. You're right

there can be no improvements to the way we respond. None.


Also, the way we display and plan security is optimum. It's not too much, and it's not too little. The priority calculation for security vs aid is perfectly optimized to your (and therefore optimum), standards. As it should be.

I'll try to do better at seeing the blue helmets, and most of all, I'll ALWAYS defer (as everyone on DU should) to you, nadinbrzezinski, on any disaster related matter.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Actually we do, every time, after every response

it is called lessons learned, after action reviews.

And no, don't defer to me...there are people here who HAVE a clue, try to listen and learn

And chiefly LEARN the true lesson every one of these ones should teach you.

BE ABLE TO TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF FOR 72 HORUS. For real world reasons you seem unable to comprehend, you will be on your own for seventy two hours.

Got it now?

There are things that are just the way they are because people have been killed... that emphasis on security you find so ahem boring and stupid, is there because people, well meaning people, at disasters, have gotten killed.

[vadawg]

37. so you are willing to put others lives at risk, why not your own

there are plenty of orgs out there who can help you get to places to help people, as wsomeone else said you have no idea just how desperate people can get and how easily giving out food can turn into a full on riot if you dont have the ability to secure the site.. I look forward to you posting from your new location where you are risking your life..

[shireen]

33. +1

[malaise]

4. Once they keep dropping the food the fighting will stop

Look at that poor child's swollen face - she took a serious hit and need attention.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. It will take way too many drops

and they have been doing this for a couple of days... since the choppers got on station.

That kid will get an ice pack if she's lucky...

[vadawg]

38. problem is you have that period between when you start and everyone realises theres enough

that is the dangerous time, if you dont keep control of the crowds it can get very nasty...

[Captain Hilts]

7. The same fights broke out in Holland in March '45....nt

[MiniMe]

8. Have you never seen women fighting over getting a bridal bouquet?

Yes, I know it isn't the same thing, but people fight over something like that. Of course they will be fighting over food when they are starving. I just hope that the food ends up in the hands of people who really need it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

Trust me I know this

[blondeatlast]

12. Someone mentioned the Black Friday incidents at Sprawl-Mart and such

and I thought that was a pretty good analogy, really, just times that by 10,000.

[votingupstart]

14. i mentioned that

in this post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7479461&mesg_id=7479614

i am sure others have made the same connection and probably before i did, as it is a very poignant reminder of crowd behavior

[happy_liberal]

30. I think it is wrong to assume Haitians will act like idiot American consumers

totally different situation and unfair to Haitians.

[vadawg]

39. not really, for them its actually more intense, its about feeding their families etc

as i siad in earlier posts i understand why people riot in these situations, and as soon as you realise that its something you are going to have to deal with then you realise that you need boots on the ground or it turns into a free for all...

[Hansel]

42. Well I saw an example of it on CNN yesterday

when the UN drove a truck full of food into a crowd of people. The men attacked the truck and pushed women and children out the the way. They got so violent that the truck had to drive away after unloading only half of the truck. Some of the men ended up throwing the food away because they thought the packing date was the expiration date. None of them offered any to the women and children.

No one is trying to be unfair to Haitians. They are humans and have strong the survival instincts just like most other humans.

[pipi_k]

13. That's the sad thing

the biggest/strongest/most aggressive will probably get more than their share in proportion to what's available to the most people.

And some people will still die because they couldn't get enough.

Meanwhile, people who don't think of those things will be sitting here all fat and happy thinking that everyone was helped, when the reality is that only the strongest survived.

And in a fight with men, women/children will always come out on the bottom.

[vadawg]

40. yup, thats one of the reasons you need to have robust security on the food sites

they will probuably also set up sites with baby milk etc to the side to try to ensure that the kids get fed, luckily even though the UNFOR kinda sucks they have pretty good command experience at setting these aid stations up..

[Hansel]

41. Or men over a foul ball at a baseball game?

Just wanted to give an equal opportunity example. :hi:

[Hannah Bell]

9. but, but -- the people will *riot* if they do that! so it can't be done. or so the du experts

told me last night.

[BeFree]

16. The only riots I have seen

...are the riots on DU and people telling us to STFU, that air drops wouldn't work.

It is a sad day on DU.

[Jennicut]

23. Like others said above, it will work on a very limited basis.

The strongest get what they want and the weak and hurt have to rely on those to give them something. It is a crass system, but I do think it needs to be done as getting around Haiti at this point by trucks is going to take awhile.

[Hannah Bell]

35. The main damage & need is in port au prince. rural areas are mostly

functioning normally.

[Doremus]

36. Not what I heard this morning.

A missionary on the ground said the epicenter 40 miles away still hasn't been helped because no one can get there.

The odor eminating from that direction is sickening she said.

[Hannah Bell]

44. port au prince is 10 miles from the epicenter. the epicenter was in the ocean.

7.0 Magnitude Earthquake Hits Haiti

Tsunami Warning Issued for Caribbean Island Nation

A large earthquake struck near Haiti late the afternoon of January 12, 2010. There were reports of significant damage to Port-Au-Prince which is located just ten miles from the epicenter. Reports indicated that a significant number of homes and structures had been completely destroyed.

Eyewitness reports indicated a significant number of people were injured. Port-au-Prince, the capital city of Haiti, is also the largest center of population in Haiti. Located on the coastline facing the North Atlantic Ocean Port-au-Prince is ten miles from the earthquake's epicenter.

The earthquake occurred in shallow water and scientists were concerned that a Tsunami would follow the earthquake and the United States National Weather Service issued a tsunami watch for Haiti.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2584369/70_magnitude_earthquake_hits_haiti.html


epicenter = 25 km (15 miles) WSW of PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/us2010rja6.php

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&source=hp&q=map+haiti&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Haiti&gl=us&ei=839SS6_RGoOwsgOgwtyCCA&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=4&ved=0CBcQ8gEwAw