Chattanooga hospital ends hiring of tobacco users

[Ghost in the Machine]

Chattanooga hospital ends hiring of tobacco users

Associated Press - January 18, 2010 8:25 AM ET

CHATTANOOGA, Tenn. (AP) - Officials at a Chattanooga hospital have decide to stop hiring tobacco users.

Memorial Hospital Vice President Brad Pope told the Chattanooga Times Free Press the decision is an extension of the hospital's commitment to health and is not based on potential health care cost savings.

Any form of nicotine will make an applicant ineligible to be hired - even nicotine gum or a patch.

The new hiring rule will not affect current employees of Memorial.

Information posted on the hospital's Web site states testing for nicotine will be added to an already-required screening for illegal drugs and will disqualify applicants who test positive.

The posting states applicants who have been offered jobs and who test positive for tobacco won't be hired and may be disqualified for reapplying for six months.

http://www.wrcbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=11838626

[krabigirl]

1. wow...what a bunch of bs.

[TroglodyteScholar]

15. Get over it.

[Sinistrous]

31. You seem to be a fan of mindless repression.

How very progressive of you.

[TroglodyteScholar]

35. You seem to be a fan of a self-mocking healthcare system that denies the dangers of tobacco use.

How mindless of you.

[Maine-ah]

89. do they ban the hiring of people who drink alcohol?

do they ban the hiring of people who eat at mcdonald's everyday? do they ban the hiring of people who only eat processed foods?

I could keep going.....

[Skittles]

97. um, TROG?

you do realize they're saying no nic GUM AND PATCHES too - you don't think that is a bit much?????

[liberalhistorian]

59. Deleted 'cause I had the wrong idea and needed to

pay better attention!

[drm604]

2. As someone who is very much anti-smoking,

I have to say that I find this disturbing.

[Democrat_in_Houston]

8. I find this disturbing, but I would also hate to be nursed by someone who reeks of cig smoke

It makes me sick. Nurses are supposed to aid in healing - not make the patient worse.

[drm604]

9. I hear what you're saying.

I agree they shouldn't be allowed to smoke during working hours. What they do on their own time should be their own business as long as it doesn't interfere with their job performance, and they should be allowed nicotine gum and patches.

[Democrat_in_Houston]

11. Even if they don't smoke in the hospital, they will still smell like smoke

and that makes some people ill. However, I see no reason why someone who is using nicotine gum and patches to be laid off.

[seabeyond]

24. smell like smoke. OMG. shoot 'em. string 'em up. nt

[EndersDame]

33. When i am sick I cant stand the smell

especially when I have a migraine or stomach issues. If they choose to do so after their day is over I have no problem


Just to clairify I think this rule is dumb but can sympathize with the above poster. I

[seabeyond]

69. this is not just about smell. it is all tabacco use. outside of work included. chewing tabacco

has nothing to do with your issue

someone not smoking during breaks has nothing to do with your issue.

someone using patch or gum has nothing to do with your issue

[Democrat_in_Houston]

36. Nurses aren't supposed to make patients sicker.

Or haven't you noticed that the fumes cling to clothes? People who are sensitive to cigarette smoke can tell you when a smoker enters a room from ten feet away.

[liberalhistorian]

63. When you're ill, or are subject to headaches or other issues,

the very smell can make you sicker and even more nauseauted. Smokers may have the right to smoke on their own time and in their own homes, but they don't have the right to subject others to their habit or make others ill. Period.

[FlyingTiger]

66. The smell of nail polish makes me feel sick.

Therefore, I'm going to go around making very definitive statements about whether or not anybody who wears nail polish should have a job in health care.

What's that, you say? I'm being ridiculous, because that probably doesn't apply to nearly as many people, and therefore I should simply request a different nurse/doctor if my nasal sensibilities are offended? You know, that sounds like QUITE the dandy solution.

[Maine-ah]

92. shit, can we ban perfumes too

I find that shit to be way more offensive.

[seabeyond]

70. this is all tabacco.... not all about smell. these are bogus points with what this hospital is

doing

[liberalhistorian]

78. I don't disagree. I agree that the hospital has

the right, indeed, the duty, to ban smoking in the workplace during work hours. I have no problem with that at all. But that's as far as it should go. It doesn't have the right to demand that its workers not smoke, period, even on their own time and in their own homes, or to refuse to hire smokers at all.

[seabeyond]

86. we agree. nt

[proteus_lives]

39. I smoke but I don't smell like smoke. You know why?

Because I don't smoke in-doors and I wash my hands frequently. That's all the nurses have to do.

[Make7]

44. Because smoking affects your sense of smell.

Just because you can't smell something, doesn't mean it doesn't smell.

[Democrat_in_Houston]

47. When my father smoked he couldn't smell the smoke on his own clothes

but I could smell his smoke on mine after spending a few hours with him even though he wasn't smoking in my presence.

He died last year of lung cancer. :cry:

[Make7]

54. One of my great aunts died of lung cancer a few years ago.

I felt so helpless, but there was really nothing anyone could do. My wish is that no one would ever have to go through that. I am very sorry to hear that your father did.

One of my close friends died a year and a half ago, and sometimes it seems like it was just yesterday. I hope you are finding your way through the days and nights. Sometimes all you can do is cry - but that helps in its own way.

Take care of yourself.

- Make7
 

[Democrat_in_Houston]

55. Sometimes it seems like I haven't seen him for years, and other

times it seems like yesterday. I guess this is normal.

But thank you very much for your concern.

Peace.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

62. I grew up in a household where my father smoked a pack a day.

My brother & sister smoked too. It didn't bother me... I never really noticed. Now when I visit thier house on holidays or whenever the smell of smoke is VERY noticable. Everything white is yellowed and I get a headache from being there more than a few hours. When I would attend puppy-training classes with my mother I would say hi to her puppy and even the damn dog smelled like cigarettes.

Someday I'll have children and I'll be sure to take them to their grandparents.
When they ask why grandma's house smells funny I'll tell them. With any luck they'll grow up nonsmokers. :)

[liberalhistorian]

64. Isn't that the truth! It's been almost twenty years since I quit

smoking. When I finally managed to quit for good (and it took me three tries over a year, believe me, I sympathize with those trying to quit and well recognize just what a powerful addiction it really is), I could not BELIEVE how much everything I wore and owned, including my car, reeked of smoke. I had to get rid of most of my clothes and a lot of my possessions and start over with a lot of stuff. I couldn't believe that I didn't smell it earlier, but, when you're a smoker, you really don't smell it like non-smokers do.

[NashVegas]

40. Perhaps You've Failed to Read The Article?

Patch and gum users are also banned.

It's not tobacco products, it's nicotine products, and it's arbitrary and capricious.

[Democrat_in_Houston]

41. And in a subsequent post I mentioned that I thought it was

ridiculous to ban patches and gum. :)

Have a nice day.

[liberalhistorian]

65. No kidding. And they're gonna punish people who are

trying to quit? Right. That should go over like a lead balloon.

[Kalyke]

49. How do you now they just don't have a woodburning fireplace at home?

I smell more of that than I ever did of cigarette smoke.

[Democrat_in_Houston]

53. They don't smell alike.

[sybylla]

68. No kidding!

I can't count on both hands the number of smoking friends and family who thought they either didn't smell like cigarette smoke or that it smelled no differently than wood smoke or burning garbage or whatever they might have gotten next to.

My BIL and his family are the only ones I know to have actually succeeded in keeping cig smell out of their house, but that's because they don't smoke inside and the wife is a cleanaholic. But, even though they smoke outside, they still smelled like cigarette smoke. It's like they forget that shit's living in their lungs for a long time after they squash that butt.

[laughingliberal]

73. Well, apparently the hospital does not agree with you

They will not be laying people off who test positive for nicotine, they will refuse to hire them just as if they tested positive for illegal drugs. Support the banning of smokers from becoming gainfully employeed if you like. Allowing the erosion of rights will, eventually, effect people who never thought they would be targets. Few people are living their lives without doing something someone disapproves of.

[laughingliberal]

76. Yes, in the middle of a critical nursing shortage that should be the first thing considered when

trying to hire a nurse. I know all the patients lying in their hosptal beds with that call light going off cause they are in unbearable pain are thinking, "please, I don't care how long it takes as long as the nurse doesn't smell like smoke."

[liberalhistorian]

60. As anti-smoking as I am, I will agree with that. I have no problem

with workplace smoking bans, the stricter the better, and I sure as hell don't want to be cared for by any medical personnel smelling of smoke. But I have a real problem with an employer not hiring smokers, period. Ban smoking in the work place during work hours, fine. I'm all for it. But you have no right to determine what a smoker does AFTER work hours in their own time and own place. It's as bad as refusing to hire people over a certain weight.

I misunderstood it at first; I thought they were just not allowing smoking in the workplace. Which, for a health care facility, makes perfect sense. But not to refuse to hire smokers, period. That's idiotic and repressive.

[laughingliberal]

72. Exactly! Some hospitals here have banned smoking on the premises effectively stopping smoking during

work hours but this goes to banning employees from engaging in legal activities on their own time. And, there are many smokers who quit by using the gum and patches who have never been able to wean themselves from them. They are still far healthier than if they had continued to smoke.

[rainbow4321]

77. Our hospital campus went smoke free

County hospital that was basically pressured into it cuz the local private facilities were all over the media talking about their smoke free campuses.
One thing they forgot about, our clinic is on a cul de sac which is a CITY owned/run street. It is not considered part of hospital campus even though the clinic is right there streetside. So we can smoke on the cul de sac street and there is not a damn thing they can do.
Irony of their ban, smokers used to be out of site, hidden behind the building. Now we have to stand all out in the open where the public can see all the smoking employees.

[laughingliberal]

91. One here is a huge campus and no where to go while at work

Another has same situation. There is an area not on their property just across a street where employees stand to smoke. Looks bad but they did away with the little hovel they had out back where no one would see them and no one else would be exposed. A lot of nurses I know have been wearing a patch or using the nicorette to avoid smoking at work. But this'll be the end of that. If I was a nurse who worked there and couldn't even use nicotine replacement substances, I'd quit. There must be some other place for an RN to work around there.

[MindPilot]

58. Last time I was in the hospital, my roommate was a diabetic with really bad gangrene

the smell of stale cigarette smoke would have been like perfume.

Of all they nasty, gross, stomach-churning things that you smell in a hospital, cigarette smoke doesn't even register for me.

[PassingFair]

67. If you're sick enough to be in the hospital, you won't care.

Damn, you'd turn down lifesaving aid because
you don't like the SMELL?

[noamnety]

99. Based on that comment, you aren't someone who's sensitive to it

in the same way as some others.

I've spent a few weeks in the hospital on an IV because I couldn't hold food down (Hyperemesis Gravidarum, lost about 20 pounds during pregnancy, was vomiting blood from mallory-weiss tears in my esophagus). AND - I'm someone for whom cigarette smell triggers migraines escalating into vomiting. I can smell an UNlit cigarette from across a room, even if I can't see it. I learned that when I friend was visiting. She took one out of the pack just in preparation for when she left and went outside. I didn't see that, I was accusing her of smoking in my bedroom, she was mad, and saying she wasn't smoking. My response: I don't see it, but I know you are because I can smell it. Turned out to be just the never lit one sitting there.

Combine the two things together: cigarette smell in clothing/hair and the illness itself, and I absolutely would have been getting sicker or had the illness prolonged, and if it was triggering yet more vomiting it would be preventing the esophagus from healing.

If cigarette smell doesn't make you physically ill, if you just find it temporarily icky while you smell it, if you aren't still ill from it hours after the smell itself is gone because of the chain of reactions it caused in you, you aren't in a position to understand or debate the reaction to it. The best way I can explain it as a trigger is to imagine you are an epileptic, and the hospital has hired people who carry strobe lights everywhere they go. For most people, that would be a minor annoyance if you are there to get a bone set. Heck, I wouldn't turn down lifesaving aid because of a strobe light. And also we should all be able to get why it might be unallowable because of its physical effect on a minority of potential patients in the hospital. I hope that analogy makes sense.

[Occulus]

42. I find this completely unsurprising

I remember when the first laws against smoking in public establishments (bars, restaurants, etc) were passed. DU antismokers said that's where it would stop.

Then the law was passed in CA (or was it NYC), making smoking in public areas a civil offense with a fine. DU antismokers told everyone that was where it would end, and assured us that nobody would ever be telling anyone what they ciould and could not do in their own homes.

Then another law was passed in CA against smoking in one's home if the unit shared a common wall, and DU antismokers were very quick to defend it. In other words, they proved they previously lied, and abominably so.

Then a business in MI called Weyco (sic?) started firing employees if they or their family members used any tobacco products. DU antismokers actually tried to defend that, too.

I'm glad to see that you think this is one step too far. But guess what?

It's too late.

[Hello_Kitty]

3. Even nicotine gum or a patch? That's ridiculous. eom

[Robb]

45. Agreed. Talk about sending the wrong message. nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

81. Kind of impossible to enforce if you limit the presence of nicotine.

[NightWatcher]

4. up next the obese?

[hughee99]

5. Well, they should have fun in court with this one. n/t

[rd_kent]

6. I agree with the intent, but not the execution of the idea.

Smoking is THE #1 health issue we face. I applaud the IDEA that the hospital is trying to get across, but anytime you intrude on what adults do ON THEIR OWN TIME is bad, bad, bad.

They would do better to say "all employees will not use tobacco while at work or on-duty", but to discriminate because someone uses a LEGAL substance?

[elias7]

7. Perhaps the intent has more to do with the hospital providing health insurance to employees

I don't think employers vary rates of coverage based on health or habits, but it is a fair argument to say that long term health costs will likely be higher for the tobacco using population compared to the non-tobacco using population. If that translates to higher longterm costs to the company (the hospital), they may have a valid position.

[ohheckyeah]

10. No, actually it is not the

#1 health issue.

[rd_kent]

12. Sorry, allow me to add to my statement - Smoking is the leading cause of PREVENTABLE health issues.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/smoking.html


The World Health Organization estimate that tobacco caused 5.4 million deaths in 2004<4> and 100 million deaths over the course of the 20th century.<5> Similarly, the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention describes tobacco use as "the single most important preventable risk to human health in developed countries and an important cause of premature death worldwide."<6>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_tobacco





But since you disagree, what evidence can you provide? I am open to new info is mine is wrong.

[seabeyond]

14. so is being fat. it is =. nt

[rd_kent]

18. Yes, obesity is a major cause of health problems too.

Thanks for pointing that out. Did you have something else to add?

[seabeyond]

22. per argument, they too should not be hired. and people that drink alcohol. nt

[rd_kent]

25. I am not advocating that they not be hired, my post implied that I am against that policy.

[seabeyond]

26. ah. thanks. i get pissed at people with this attitude. about the same pissed

with giving up rights for illusionary safety and privacy and all kinds of stupid shit.

[Donnachaidh]

34. and people who marinate themselves in perfumes and colognes cause problems too

I know that I've had to leave buidings because of some troglodyte deciding it's quicker to spray than to wash. It triggers fierce asthma attacks for me.

That being said, this is a freaking slippery slope. WHO decides when to stop with this nanny state bullshit?

[seabeyond]

37. i was preg, in a restaurant and someone came in with perfume. i couldnt eat. had to leave without

eating. didnt glare at her. didnt make an issue of it. i knew her right to wear and my vulnerability cause preg. so i left

simple

[noamnety]

101. I do the same in restaurants and grocery stores.

If I'm following the same path as a smoker in the store, I'll leave that aisle and go elsewhere and circle back when they are gone. As far as they would ever know I'm just inefficient at planning a route through a store. (You can't do that when you are trapped in a hospital bed, though.)

I took part in a study in scientific american back in the 80s when I was pregnant. They sent out an issue that was scratch and sniff, comparing the reactions of pregnant women to smells vs. the rest of the world. The one I remember the strongest was a stale goat urine smell - totally rank and stomach churning. Turned out it was Ivory Soap. :D That never bothered me before, I used it growing up, but in the survey while I was pregnant the urea smell was just overwhelming and the sensitivity from that never left me. A couple times in following years my ex tried using ivory soap and I couldn't be anywhere near him.

[laughingliberal]

74. Yep and even a legal substance that is to keep them from using a legal substance that would improve

their health.

But no one can, really, act surprised at this can they?

[seabeyond]

13. then i want them not to hire fat people. there are the same health risks. nt

[TroglodyteScholar]

17. This is such a bogus argument, I can't believe anyone continues to spew this false analogy. n/t

[seabeyond]

21. nothing false about it. everything parallel to it. same diseases and risks with fat as smoking

going ot go after the smoker, go after the fat person. and while we are at it, drink ANY alcohol, your ass is off the list too.

instead of just stating bogus and ignoring, you tell me the falsehood.

[TroglodyteScholar]

29. You're either engaging in self-deceit or or intellectual dishonesty.

Either way, nothing I say is going to change your mind--so I'll save myself the effort, thank you.

[seabeyond]

38. and your head is in sand without factual information as you deny. reality dude/dudette. nt

[DatManFromNawlins]

46. It is only slightly harder to avoid being fat...

... than it is to avoid smoking. The only difference is to be educated about what you're consuming and get some exercise while you're at it.

It's common sense:

Avoid processed foods
Avoid foods where sugar is one of the first three ingredients
Drink water during the day, red wine if possible with dinner
Eat mostly vegetables, with meats as a special side dish
Eat your colors
If you see a word on a label that you have to slow down to read, put it back on the shelf
Eat food that can rot eventually
Eat natural (butter is better for you than margarine, whole milk is better for you than skim)
Eat fermented and cultured foods from time to time (B12)
Eat as the natives eat... indigenous cultures have the diets they do because it works for them
Sweet treats should be treats, not a normal part of your diet
Need to snack? Choose a food picked from a tree or vine
Save money, flavor, and nutrients by buying frozen veggies and fruits... buy a freezer if you can

That's just off the top of my head. And sure people can whine and make excuses for why they can't eat healthily, but it's mostly bullshit. The average American spends less on food as a percentage of income than any other people on the planet.

I eat well, and I smoke an occasional cigar. I'd never work for a company that would deprive me of my cigar... I'd go into the cigar business first.

[seabeyond]

71. i dont care if a person is fat, that is their business. i dont care if a person smokes, that is

their business.

i dont care if a person drinks alcohol (as long as it isnt during working hours) that is their business

that is my only point with fat. i dont judge a person overweight. they do not offend, or bother me. i. dont. care. (unlike many on this board)

[Flaneur]

56. What a cop out. Back in the cave with you.

[laughingliberal]

79. Anyone who thinks they aren't coming after the overweight as soon as they've milked the anti smoking

crusade for all they can get out of it just hasn't been paying attention to the direction of this country.

[SidDithers]

16. Good....

smoking and health care are not compatible.

Sid

[walldude]

19. So if you are sick and the only doctor available smokes

you'd rather not be treated?

[seabeyond]

23. nor is being fat and health care. nor is drinking booze and health care. nt

[laughingliberal]

80. Good. I'll remember that next time the nursing agency calls screaming about how short the hospital

is of nurses tonight.

[rcrush]

20. What about people who drink?

If you drink alcohol you shouldn't get hired then either.

[EndersDame]

32. Doctors and nurses should only drink on their breaks

"Shit I have a minute till I get back out on the floor" "chug Chug Chug!"

[rcrush]

51. Just like my mechanic!

I'm gonna go see him for a colonoscopy next time.

[kwenu]

27. Next they should ban people who engage in risky sex and drink soda.

That's the ticket! :smoke:

:sarcasm:

P.S. And I don't even smoke.

[varelse]

28. As much as I loathe cigarette smoke

I see this as a violation of privacy - and bad policy.

[laughingliberal]

98. Ah, but the violation of your privacy by your employer was made legal by Bush's last minute

executive order allowing employers access to your health care information. And then the Senate created a nice loophole in the HCR bill that will allow more use of the violation. Welcome to our new country. Privacy rights have been under attack for quite some time. And those who are attacking them are winning.

[varelse]

102. Great - our rights can be signed away by a President?

Can the new one sign them back over to us?

[lynne]

30. They're hypocrites unless they apply the same rules to drinking -

- who wants to be nursed or doctored by someone with a hangover? Not me! There is a real possibility of impaired judgment with someone who drinks even if they don't drink on the job.

[NashVegas]

43. Drinking - Including Coffee, Tea, and Other Caffeine Drinks

The wholesale banning of nicotine and testing for a LEGAL substance is a gross civil rights violation, IMO.

[laughingliberal]

95. Perfectly legal since Bush's executive order allowing your employer access to your

private health information. Same order which will now make it possible for your employer to require you to enroll in 'wellness programs' and charge you a lot more for your health care benefits if you don't meet goals.

[laughingliberal]

83. Ah, hangovers. A really dirty, little secret in most OR's.

But, please, ignore that. And let's just keep on the march against those smokers.

[mmonk]

48. What about doctors and staff hooked on pain killers?

Alcoholics? They seem more dangerous to the health of hospital patients than smokers.

[laughingliberal]

84. No, no. Right now we're busy making smokers the root of all evil.

The rest will have to wait their turn.

[madville]

50. It will get more widespread

Several fire and police departments in this area will not hire tobacco users either.

[FlyingTiger]

52. Well, with hospital staffing shortages projected to consistently get worse...

...I can't possibly see what could go wrong with this cunning plan.

[laughingliberal]

75. Yeah. There are days when I feel decent and think I might, one day, return to nursing part time

I think I could, probably, do that. And I have huge experience that I worry is going to waste in the middle of a big shortage. I have an agency or 2 that call regularly begging me to consider picking up some shifts. We could use the money, certainly.

Then I see things like this and I think, "Fuck it. If those effing hospitals really gave a damn if the patients got care they wouldn't be so oppressive to the staff." When the shortages have become bad enough to cause a public outcry we may be treated as valuable again. Until then they can run their oppressive profit factories without my help. And that should be good news to you lying in your hospital bed with your call light going off that when someone finally answers you can be sure they didn't have any tobacco today. Good job!

[GreenArrow]

57. If tomorrow all the things were gone,

I’d worked for all my life.
And I had to start again,
with just my children and my wife.

I’d thank my lucky stars,
to be livin here today.
‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom,
and they can’t take that away.

And I’m proud to be an American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.

And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA.

[MindPilot]

61. So the next time I'm retching because my health care provider

has garlic breath or reeks of curry, I'll remind myself of this policy.

[arthritisR_US]

82. they should be challenged in court because that is discrimination, plain and simple! Total BS. n/t

[laughingliberal]

85. Just another problem with corporate personhood and right to work

They can pretty much make whatever rules they want on who they will or won't hire as long as it does not violate EEOC laws.

[laughingliberal]

87. It will stand up as long as it does not violate EEOC laws. There's your right to work laws for you.

Lovely, huh?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

90. Are smokers a protected group?

didn't think so.

[arthritisR_US]

94. wow, this all blows me away :( n/t

[quiller4]

88. Group Health and Kaiser took this position some years ago. You

cannot be considered for employment at Pierce, Thurston of King County Health Departments if you use any tobaco products. I'm not sure when that was implemented in King and Thurston Counties but it became Pierce County policy in 2004.

The campuses are tobacco-product free so even though smokers kept their jobs, they cannot smoke anyplace on the job site.

[laughingliberal]

93. Might have been able to challenge it back when patches and nicorette were prescription drugs but I

don't think there's a way around it, now. There is one nicotine replacement product now that is still prescription. Might work if someone's physician had them on that. Otherwise, those who are tobacco users or even those who have used patches and gum to stay off tobacco are screwed.

[laughingliberal]

96. All hail the next phase in the coming of the Police State

Guess we thought we'd know it when we saw it and it would be more like oppression of minorities and such! Nah, we took care of them with mandatory sentencing for drug crimes and cuts to education. And, besides, that is sooo WWII era Gernany!

It will be (and is) the creeping violations of our rights in the interest of our health and safety and the savings to society. Never mind we aren't doing much about those things corporations are doing/selling that threatens our health/safety/economy.Start with those most people already dislike (smokers!) proceed on to the overweight (we got a good foot on that rung, already) then move up that ladder til everyone is cowed and making no waves.

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. Look! Over there! It's a smoker! It's a fat person! That kid is drinking soda!

How's this, "We're very sorry we have to let you go. Your last lipid profile exceeded our limits."


Enjoy your chains. Not quite how what you thought they would look like, huh?

[Randall Flagg]

100. First the smokers, then the obese, then the drinkers, then the non-Christians...

then those with tats...

This is opening a door that will be hard to close.