If Howard Dean was still head of the DNC we wouldn't be in trouble in MA

[Stoic]

Just saying. The Gov led the Democratic Party to unprecedented victories during his watch.

[still_one]

1. we will never know /nt

[The Green Manalishi]

58. K'N'R

Dean/Grayson 2012

[JDPriestly]

70. Great idea, Manalishi

[liberalmike27]

83. I made that Comment

Earlier tonight. We need to get him back, and set him on finding some replacements for the DINOs and Liebermann.

[ChiciB1]

123. Let's Make This "Our" Agenda & Help Howard Dean Plow Through

the crap that the WH & our Congress Critters have been slapping us with!!

[FBaggins]

2. Because?

He has good karma?

[Gidney N Cloyd]

7. Because unlike the current chair, Dean was often spotted doing his damn job.

[FBaggins]

9. When the candidate doesn't do HER job...

...does the DNC chairman have the option of filling in for her?

[Gidney N Cloyd]

15. In a sense, yes.

Not filling in literally but identifying shortcomings with the campaign and helping to make adjustments.

[FBaggins]

24. You do realize that some of the gaffs

came with DSCC/DNC people right next to her (or in some cases participating), right?

[jeff47]

46. You do realize that the DNC didn't even spend enough $$

To pay for tracking polls, right? So the campaign might have known about their slide before it became an enormous problem?

Yes, she's not the best candidate ever. But the national apparatus should have known just how important this race was, and been all over MA for months. Instead, they realized they dropped the ball a whopping 1 week before the election.

Dean indeed would have been paying attention to this race, instead of encouraging Bacus to waste time with the Republicans.

[JDPriestly]

71. I don't think that Democrats are too interested in donating to a party run by

corporate sponsors and the DLC.

[ChiciB1]

124. Ding! Ding! Ding! n/t

[Demeter]

84. And He Was Great At It!

The Doctor Is IN!

[Ken Burch]

62. We never lost winnable races under Dean

n/t.

[golddigger]

3. K&R

[kentuck]

4. If Howard Dean was Chief of Staff instead of Rahm Emanuel...

I cannot help but think we would be better off.

[jgraz]

27. If Howard Dean was President instead of ...

Hey, if you're going to dream... :evilgrin:

[Sebastian Doyle]

31. We would be 6 years into economic recovery by now

And all that Iraq/Afghanistan bullshit would have been long over with. :evilfrown:

[JDPriestly]

73. We would be six months further into recovery than we are, and

more Americans would be backing the White House agenda.

President Obama does not convey enthusiasm. It's strange because he did convey enthusiasm during his campaign. But then, he wasn't so visibly surrounded by wet blankets like Tim Geithner, Larry Summers and Bernanke and -- Ram Emmanuel and his ConservaDem brother were not quite so prominently glued to Obama's side.

[salib]

126. It is not strange, it is the difference of being judged on actions and leadership

Rather than being judged on speeches and representation.

Dean was an executive (Governor), Obama was a representative (Senator). It does not HAVE to make a difference, but it certainly appears to be making one in this case.

[Warpy]

5. Absolutely correct but the DLC despised him for it

No conservative will ever be able to admit their dogma doesn't work and no conservative will ever be able to accept any deviation from that dogma.

As long as the party is controlled by conservatives, they'll continue to throw victory away with both hands.

[iceman66]

6. Probably not!

He would have been involved, for sure.

Can anyone point to a single thing that his replacement, Tim Kaine, has accomplished anywhere? He couldn't even deliver his own seat!

[Leopolds Ghost]

107. Tim Kaine, a DLCer, couldn't even deliver his own seat.

I guess the DLC would rather throw away a blue Virginia than have a non DLCs running it. Their theory that Virginia is a "growing metropolitan area" where "affluent voters and exurban rednecks will only support DLC candidates" is at stake.

[Faryn Balyncd]

8. In fact, if we'd just followed Howard Dean's advice on REAL HC Reform, we would not be in this shape

"If Barack Obama’s bill gets changed to exclude the public entities, it is not health insurance reform…it rises and falls on whether the public is allowed to choose Medicare if they’re under 65 or not. If they are allowed to choose Medicare as an option, this bill will be real health care reform...."

- Howard Dean



(The voters don't like Democratic corporatism any more than they like Republican corporatism, and they know phony, corporatist "reform" when they see it.)






:hi:





:kick:

[rhett o rick]

36. Yeah so what are you going to do about it??? What can we do about it? We need to fight for control

of the Democratic Party.

[TexasObserver]

10. Recommend, and no kidding!

The role that Dean played in the successes of 2006 and 2008 has been underplayed by the administration.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Triana]

11. If Howard Dean was President, we'd have REAL Health Care Reform too. n/t

[Skip Intro]

28. I was thinking the same thing about Hillary, but didn't want to get my teeth kicked in...

:hide:

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[suzie]

51. Did I miss where Howard Dean was on the ballot in 2008?

Or is this just a back-handed way of saying "Primary Obama in 2012"?

[The Green Manalishi]

68. Obama has to re-apply for his job in 2012

Just like everyone else who has held the gig.
I'm glad he won, and he's done some good things, and I actually like him, but think of it this way:
WE are the employers. WE, the voters - and, in the primaries Democratic Party voters- do the performance review.

We can't afford to be any more generous of spirit towards incumbents than the meanest, nastiest corporation is towards their "human resources". To wit, : is there a better candidate to fulfill the function? if answer = yes your ass is toast.

I'm realistic; President Obama is the president of ALL Americans. And he is a pragmatist, not an ideologue. And he would have gladly signed a truly comprehensive and good health care bill, if one had been sent to him.

But if this doesn't get the message across that the "base" is pissed off then nothing will.

[suzie]

72. Are you suggesting that Democrats completely destroy the Party

by primarying Obama?

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

119. The Dem party already appears to be completely destroyed nt

[The Green Manalishi]

120. Completely destroy the party?

:eyes:

GMAFB

A good strong primary challenge? Hell yes.

[suzie]

127. Unlike 101st Keyboarders fantasy world where a tiny group of ultra-leftists

is the base of the Democratic Party, in the real world African Americans have traditionally come out and supported Democratic candidates.

Well, if you folks have your way and Obama is primaried by someone who wins, you can permanently kiss AA support goodbye.

Now, so-called "progressives" will say that's unfair, but it's real politics, not the fantasy world of the 101st keyboarders.

Think of all those "progressives" that you plan to elect, without any AA support. Good luck--but have at your good strong primary challenge--and Republican takeover of the Presidency and everything else in the country.

[JDPriestly]

74. Leaders don't just wait for things to be sent to them.

Rahm Emmanuel's brother wanted this awful bill just the way it is, and Obama wanted it too. If Obama had not wanted it, he would have fired Rahm Emmanuel and his brother long ago -- way back last summer when it was obvious that the Senate was in turmoil over passing the bill.

If the Democrats in the Senate allow Lieberman to continue in the Caucus, I will be even angrier and more disappointed than I am now.

The good thing about Brown's win is that we really don't have to put up with Lieberman any more.

[peace frog]

12. Big K 'n' R

Howard was anything but asleep at the wheel.

[TayTay]

13. Ah, the Party apparatus in MA is the one leftover from Dean

He was Chair for 4 years. This is his influence being felt.

[druidity33]

29. bull hockey.

No way does the situation in MA currently, have anything to do with Dean.

That's just silly talk...

[emsimon33]

61. No, when Obama came in, Dewan's whole structure was dismantled

[Leopolds Ghost]

109. Earth to world: Rahm purged the party organizations of all Dean supporters after Dean left.

Nobody on DU noticed the pogrom. People even said it was natural, Dean wanted it that way, Dean and Rahm like each other, the Prez brings in his own people, etc.

[DisgustedInMN]

14. I'm with Triana .

"Yes we can" has become "no we can't, 'cuz we got no spine."

[Upfront]

80. Close but

More like we are bought and payed for.

[Vidar]

16. K&R.

[Faryn Balyncd]

17. "If Barack Obama’s bill gets changed to exclude the public entities, it is not ...reform" - H. Dean

And the voters know phony, corporatist "reform" when they see it.

They support, in poll after poll, real reform with a "public plan like Medicare" as an option for all Americans.....

But they do NOT support the no-public-option, corporate-insurance-only mandate.

If we don't see the light, stop this bad bill, re-group and run on REAL REFORM, November will make January 19 look like child's play.








(K and R, by the way.)





:kick:

[Robb]

18. I'm not so sure.

I'm as big a Dean fan as anyone on the board. But I don't believe he would be as outspoken were he holding a position.

It's the reality of being in the captain's chair... especially for someone like Dean, who would want to help as much as he could and wouldn't risk getting the boot -- and then not being able to help anyone.

Just my $.02.

[Bitwit1234]

19. I KNOW TIM KAINE IS A PUTZ

He is so timid he bends over back wards to be sure he makes no one angry. If Rahm had not been so damn jealous of Howard Dean the Democrats would be sailing along. From the very day Obama appointed this piece of crap we have steadily gone down hill. He sucks. He is a corporate sell out and I bet he has made money hand over fist. AND his brother who is a Health company exec has probably tripled his take.

[emsimon33]

63. Rahm's pettiness and miscalculations are dooming us!

[kenfrequed]

99. Bent over?

No, Kaine is a conservative corporatist through and through. Many of us cried foul when he was first given the job.

[Better Today]

20. I don't know if that's actually true, since once one path chosen,

any other path is unknown, unknowable, but I'll sure rec for missing Dean and his strategy.

[JDPriestly]

75. "any other path is unknown, unknowable" sounds philosophically erudite

but is only true for those who don't know any other path.

Fact is that the other path is very well known to all of us.

Dean was the chair of the DNC and lead us to victory and to 59 votes in the Senate. So the path we would be on were Dean still head of the DNC is very well known and the path were he chief of staff in the White House quite knowable. Based on what we know and just a smithereen of reason, we can surmise that we would not have lost the Kennedy seat in Massachusetts had Dean been in either position.

[JVS]

21. I think Howard would have probably resigned in protest over HCR

[Bombtrack]

22. Or if more people voted for the good candidate in the primary rather than the awful one.

but I'm sure the Coakley primary voters will continue to vote in primaries with no regard for others opinions.

[Tesha]

25. Primaries commonly select a candidate who isn't the most-effective choice for the general election.

Or who isn't effective once elected. Some folks here may
be able to cite some recent examples of either effect.

Tesha

[Bombtrack]

26. I know, but one can wish for better

oh fuckin well.

[Peregrine Took]

23. Amen. Rham hurt the party when he had him dumped. n/t

[uponit7771]

30. AMEN!!! How in the F*** did she lose such a huge lead?!!?!?

[samsingh]

32. i agree with you.

[whathehell]

33. You got that right.

[BlueDemKev]

34. If only.....

...if only Ted Kennedy hadn't died, we wouldn't be in this mess today, either. Dude, we can "if only..." forever, it's not going to do any good. We have to play with the cards we're dealt, not with what we wish we had.

Can any of you folks in Boston help drive Coakley voters to the polls???

[JDPriestly]

78. Sorry, I'd love to, but I''m out here in California where I live.

When it is time for us to vote, I'm usually monitoring the polls, walking precincts or putting reminders on door knobs.

In 2008, I spent the day from early morning to closing monitoring the polls. In 2004, I walked three precincts on election day and the preceding day.

Face it. Obama has not inspired folks like me. Why should I work that hard when I don't believe in what Congress and the president are doing in D.C. When they break all their promises and don't even apologize.

[treestar]

35. And some accuse Obama's supporters of thinking he's the messiah

If Dean were President he'd have the same problems and the same Congress and the same Senate and the same earthquakes

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[suzie]

52. I was a Howard Dean supporter in 2004 and as I recall, his views were quite

moderate--he'd have been equally reviled by the so-called "progressives" on DU.

[midnight]

54. I'm a bit surprised by your opinion.... Can you imagine Dean taking

single payer or public option off the table... he layed out clearly the economic advantage to removing insurance co.

[ooglymoogly]

55. You speak gibberish and expect us to swallow it. nt

[martymar64]

64. That's bullshit. I was a Dean supporter on DU in 2004, been here since 03

Criticism of Dean by the Rahm-worshipping DLCer "moderates" and the Joementum fans was the order of the day here (the same crowd that is attacking him now) while many of us defended him tooth and nail against their ignorant attacks. So don't give me that "he would have been reviled here by DUers" crap. Many of us (I would venture to guess a majority of DUers) are still Dean supporters. Are you?

[suzie]

69. Gosh, sorry, I was out working on getting Democrats elected in 2004, not

spending my time among those who seek to vilify all other Democrats on the internet with the dreaded "moderate" or "DLC" labels.

I don't know that Dean is running for anything right now--so why would I call myself a "Dean supporter."

[martymar64]

86. Whatever, dude.

Enjoy your stay.

[Puglover]

115. I agree.

I have the same feeling about this one.

[JDPriestly]

79. We aren't all that progressive. We are Democrats.

Obama is a conservative, and when polled, that is what I say. Obama's record is conservative, not Democratic.

[suzie]

85. Hey, whatever reason you have to use to justify your persistent dislike of Obama.

We're talking Howard Dean here and you have to use that as an excuse to express your dislike of Obama.

You don't get enough chances to say how much you dislike Obama, you have to invent one more?

Sad.

Wait a minute, you were an Edwards supporter and you have the gall to talk about Obama being a conservative and not a Democrat?

Unreal.

[JetCityLiberal]

37. Well said. Agree completely.

Paul

recommended :thumbsup:

[Va Lefty]

38. Damn Straight!!

[Goldstein1984]

39. I believe MA is the nation in microcosm right now

Progressives have been alienated nationwide, and MA is just a local manifestation.

Those mourning the loss of Ted Kennedy's seat might ask themselves if they think Coakley is anything like Ted Kennedy. Did they give the Left of the Democratic Party anything worth worthy of their votes? Other than the proverbial lesser of two evils, I mean.

[emsimon33]

65. They feel we have no choice but to swallow whatever they shove down our throats

But we do have a choice: Just stay home!

The lesser of two evils has become crumbs and too many of us are tired of crumbs as the Party kicks us in the head.

[shellgame26]

81. then enjoy republican rule

That's what they said back in "00 too about Al Gore. And we all know America would have been a much better place had BUsh not been elected.

[BrklynLiberal]

40. I bet you are right... :(

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sebastian Doyle]

44. Hillary campaigned on the corporate mandates.

She was shilling for that crap even in 2007!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20819827/

[jeff47]

76. Ya really do need a mandate, the problem is

in the details.

A mandate to buy private insurance w/o public competition or effective price controls is bad.

A mandate to buy insurance w/ a real public option, which is what Clinton was proposing, isn't too bad.

A mandate in the form of taxes to pay for single-payer is good.

You need the young & healthy to pay in to cover the old & sick. So some sort of mandate is necessary. But there's good and bad ways to implement it.

[eridani]

98. A tax to pay for a public good--like health care ought to be--is one thing

The government acting as a business enforcer for mass murderers is quite another.

[Leopolds Ghost]

110. Amen. nt

[kenfrequed]

100. Nonsense

A mandate to buy private insurance amounts to ridiculous waste in the form of administration costs and obscene profits. Just going a public option alone puts the ball in the insurance companies court by creating a program by which people have access to healthcare. The chips will fall where they may and if the insurance companies are too busy raking it in to actually provide for the people than they will fold.

A mandate is just corporate wealthfare.

[jeff47]

114. Might I suggest reading posts before replying to them? (nt)

[kenfrequed]

128. I was disagreeing with you.

What part of it do you believe I misunderstood. You seemed to believe that a mandate should be part of the solution, I disagree.


Were you using some secret code that denoted you actually were against ALL mandates? If you are than I misread.

Otherwise read my reply again.

[jeff47]

130. The part you missed

Is where I said single payer is best. It's a mandate, only in that the government collects taxes to pay for it. No private insurance involved.

[Jefferson23]

42. I agree with you. And their decision to remove him was a huge mistake, or a decision they are

pleased with I often wonder.

[jillan]

43. Howard would have been involved in this race from the beginning.

It seemed like when Howard was head of the DNC - he was everywhere - on tv - on the blogs...

now the only time I see anything from the DNC is when they want my money.

[emsimon33]

67. Very good point

[mdmc]

45. the grassroots would have rocked it old school for TEDDY

YEEEAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH~~~~

[librechik]

50. you got that right!

Can you imagine? Gibbs says they didn't go to MA to help cuz they weren't invited! WTF!!!

[jillan]

53. Dean on Rachel's show NOW.

[McCamy Taylor]

56. Amen! But we know who knifed Dean. Rahm Emanuel.

[emsimon33]

66. And Obama choce Rahm. Obama deserves everything that he gets by making that choice!

A one-term, ineffectual president who represented not the voters but the special interests.

[mother earth]

57. It's not the state that's in trouble, it's ALL elections in this

country, they are up for grabs by those doing the counting, no audits & in MA there were no exit polls today.

[emsimon33]

59. Truer words were never spoken!

[Dinger]

60. Yup. K & R

[pundaint]

77. The problem is the Democratic governance for the last year. This was a vote of no confidence.

Howard Dean as DNC head wouldn't have had more effect on the legislative and executive lack of upholding the Brand. Democrats are supposed to support the People, and civil liberties, and peacemaking. Obama didn't lead, he didn't get out of the way, so the whole majority look like a bunch of weak capitulators. What is the sense of trying to take your whole majority out of the middle, when, if you included the Left in your coalition, you'ld on have to get just past the center?

[bertman]

90. I agree with pundaint. Even if Dr. Dean had been the head of the DNC it would not have

mattered. It's not the campaign that caused the defeat as much as it is the problems with the Democratic Leadership in Washington, starting with the President. He selected Rahm, or he allowed Rahm to be installed as COS. The President apparently also picked his Treasury staff and his Cabinet. He didn't pick Pelosi or Reid, but he's supposed to be the one who muscles them when it's required and I don't think he did that.

It's the things that ARE NOT GETTING DONE that are killing us Democrats.

WE Democrats, who had the House, Senate, and Presidency treated the Wall Street Banksters like they were invincible, the Masters of the Universe. Then WE Democrats allowed the people whose ONLY healthcare role is MAKING A PROFIT, we allowed them to write the so-called healthcare reform legislation. The President said he was going to help people keep from having their homes foreclosed--that's a magnificent failure.

These are all things that the average American knows and understands. And it pissed the average folks in Massachusetts off to the point that they said "Screw You. You are not about Change."

Howard Dean is a helluva Democrat and a helluva organizer, but even he couldn't overcome that level of incompetence and arrogance.

[kenfrequed]

101. Indeed

And had the president been bolder in his words and led his party rather than waited and followed the advice of his advisors and handlers than the public would have rallied behind no matter what the idiotic tea party twerps would have babbled.

[bertman]

129. I completely agree, kenfrequed. President Obama INSPIRED people during the campaign.

He did not just convince them to vote for him. He truly INSPIRED them. Then, once he was elected he became an administrator instead of the leader he needed to be. It's not too late for him to change. Maybe this will be his epiphany. I sure as hell hope so.

[lonestarnot]

82. Well he was right again tonight when he said, "People aren't getting the change they voted for in No

vember." :shrug:

[GreenTea]

87. Again, the DLC cooperate democrats despise Dean - They wouldn't even consider

Howard Dean for a cabinet position or any place else in this corporate friendly DLC administration.

The DLC Democrats are much more in line with corporate conservative blue dog democrats than they are with progressive democrats like Howard Dean and the Democratic party will continue to pay big time for not accepting the very popular progressive Democratic agenda.

[Hamlette]

88. then why'd he quit? n/t

[Leopolds Ghost]

111. Huh? n/t

[AzDar]

89. K & R

[idahoblue]

91. DNC

I think we should try to pressure the firing of Rahm and Tim. They are useless. I just looked at the DNC web site and it has not been updated since 2008. What are they doing?

[Leopolds Ghost]

112. "I just looked at the DNC web site and it has not been updated since 2008." Wow.

[Spryboy]

92. Amen.

Clearly, if Howard Dean were in charge, this wouldn't have happened. At all.

Rahm needs to go, and Obama needs to get Howard Dean back into the DNC leadership position. Or in some other advisory capacity to the President.

Rahm is a loser.

[victoryparty]

93. Dean's touch is needed

I still think there's a chance Dean will challenge Obama in 2012.

[crispini]

102. I've heard Dean is not interested in running again.

[rury]

94. Martha Coakley sucked as a candidate

Howard Dean could not have changed that!

[Lasher]

95. This thought occurred to me yesterday.

Now I see we lost.

[democrank]

96. K & R

for Howard

[DeadEyeDyck]

97. doesn't Howard Dean's record rest where he is at now? n/t

[RoccoR5955]

103. K&R You are 100% correct

Not to mention Coakley ran a rather poor campaign. She felt, from before the primary, that she was entitled to the seat, and did little early on, to ensure that she EARNED it.

[Vinca]

104. Agreed. Dean was brilliant in that position.

[RBInMaine]

105. Bullshit ! Quit the crap. Coakley ran a tremendously SHITTY campaign. Period.

[freddie mertz]

108. Sure, But that shitty campaign was abetted by a detached, shitty DNC and DSCC effort.

They took the seat for granted. They were distracted with "other matters."

One thing about Dean, he is restless and always asking questions.

He would have made sure the polling was done that needed to be done early, he would have pushed the candidate and the state apparatus to triple their efforts.

Dean was never the sort to be asleep at the wheel.

Which the current party "leadership" certainly has been.

[RBInMaine]

118. Ah BS. They sent her plenty of bucks and other support. Are you actually saying the DNC should

have known the turf better in MA than Coakley and her team? SHE and HER TEAM are ENTIRELY to blame for this fuckin' debacle. She sucked. She is a good person and a good AG and I sent donations and phone banked, but this lady STUNK as a campaigner, and HER team STUNK. So, we live, we learn, we go on. But no buck passing and no sour grapes.

[freddie mertz]

122. I am saying that there is plenty of blame to go around.

A weak, detached DNC leadership.

A distracted, complacent DSCC.

A White House that has frittered away its resounding mandate by passing the responsibility to craft key legislation to dysfunctional Senate committees manned by barely animate corpses.

There's a start.

[stray cat]

106. The voters have no will of their own if Howard Dean is in charge?

[mod mom]

113. If Obama would have sided w Dean instead of former INVESTMENT BANKER Rahm

he wouldn't be seeing this populist revolt. Putting in place the same folks (Clintonites & DLC) that caused a lot of the mess and doing hardly nothing to punish the bankers who profitted from this mess has soured many voters including me.

[Maineman]

116. I agree. Howard Dean is smarter and has better judgment.

[abelenkpe]

117. I agree.

Dean has the ability to mobilize people that no one else seems to have.

[SlingBlade]

121. K & R .... Dean led us out of the wilderness

And then these clowns decided that Repukes are our friends.
I'm sick and tired of wishy washy democrats who are afraid to fight
fire with fire.

Dean is a fighter, Always has been

[madmax]

125. "If"

'A duck had a bugle up his ass there would be music in the air'. ;)