What the hell is the matter with this country we call the US ?

[blues90]

Now we control the airports in Haiti and won't allow medical planes to land or doctors without borders.

What have we become to allow this?

I for one am not at all proud to be an american because this is not what I stand for. This is not what I voted for all these years and this is not about damn votes it's about american control over everything and we allow our freaks to get away with this still. I am beyond anger , these people need help not power trips just because we CAN. Jesus people .

We had better pull our heads out of our asses and stop this control freak crap , we are not the rulers of the globe whether we think so or not.

[babylonsister]

1. You're kidding, right?? Read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7503261

[blues90]

7. Give it a rest . you don't know what you are talking about

and save the DU references . You are not some expert.

[babylonsister]

14. You're thick, aren't you. I didn't post that, merely read it. You should, too. Most

people come to DU to learn; you should try it.

[blues90]

19. Not thick at all , I saw and read those posts before .The issue I have

Is that you are one who buys just about anything and re-packages it as if they are the only facts and your facts and should become everyones facts. That is being thick. I tried to explain in more detail with my last reply to your response but the post could not go through saying there needed to be spaces in a long post , it was not and and there were spaces so I typed in all I could.

There are many other sources all liberal who have their views on how bad things are going with the american efforts in Haiti and how long it is taking while other countries are getting things done. Even Mike Malloy expressed the same thing last night.

I never said I had all the answers yet you almost claim you have in you showing up in many of my posts just for the sake of dispute. I have my own view and do not try to push it on you. Are you on some mission?

Look , there is one landing strip in Haiti , all agree on that , so prioritize , land what is needed most and go down the line for a start since one air strip is all that exists right now and most likely for some time to come.

[MercutioATC]

2. You have no CLUE what's logistically required in Haiti.

Your best bet would be to delete your OP and do some research.

[blues90]

9. And you have ALL the info , is that right ?

Save it for some idiot that buys your crap. I was not born last night. I did plenty of research and you come along with a handfull of none sense crap.

[MercutioATC]

18. In situations like this, establishing a logistics system is the first priority.

You have to be able to distribute the aid for it to be effective.

Question: What flights that have been allowed to land do you feel have been lower priority than the DWB flights that were denied?

[blues90]

20. There was a large cargo plane with tons of supplies

That was turned back three times. Medical supplies and water and food.

I ask you , why is the US controlling the air field?

[MercutioATC]

26. Yes, and what's needed is personnel and equipment to MOVE those supplies.

...which is what is getting priority right now.


The U.S. is controlling the airfield because we're providing air traffic control services. We're providing those services because we have both the equipment and the expertise to do the job.

[Dogmudgeon]

3. There is still nearly no landing space.

If MSF has to wait, it's because other supplies are coming in.

This isn't control-freakery; it's triage.

--d!

[blues90]

10. There are priorities to be met , medical supplies are first and

medical personal , not police. Let me know what plane you would want landing first , the one that saves you leg or life or the one that brings in troops.

[Dogmudgeon]

17. It's not being handled as a war zone

First, the troops are under the command of USAID, tasked with an humanitarian mission -- not only are they not heavily armed, but they are the specialists trained in "casualty control", provisioning, sanitation, and medical assistance. They are policing relief areas, where they are policing at all. The US Air Force has taken air traffic control, and the SeaBees have begun to clear the harbor of debris so it can be opened again, too. The relief operations of other countries, also usually military-coordinated, are beginning to arrive in force.

MSF has had to wait, but so have a number of USAID flights. Everyone has had a difficult, frustrating time waiting for deployment. Haiti was a poverty-stricken land, and now it's poverty-stricken AND has a broken transportation system. And MSF itself has also had to deal with problems with its non-military partners. The big one that gets cited is how the big bad US air control diverted one-half of a mobile surgical theater to the Dominican Republic, but its transportation to Haiti was also expedited.

After the tsunami in Indonesia, aid arrived quickly, but the affected zones were limited to the seacoasts. Access to the areas (in Indonesia as well as other countries) was direct and uncomplicated, even if the disaster areas themselves were a mess. Haiti is different; the entire nation has been isolated, half by the Atlantic, and half by the topology separating Haiti and the DR.

This is NOT a situation where order can be reliably imposed; and contrary to the impression many people are getting, our military presence is not even equipped for combat operations. EVERYONE is having extraordinary difficulty getting to where they need to go. Even cellular phone service has been stretched to the limit.

Once the emergency has passed and the reconstruction phase begins, there will surely be a "Lessons Learned" conference of some kind. And I hope that this disaster motivates us to forgive Haiti's unending, crushing debt, and to spread some capital investment their way. Cold comfort, I know, to a land with a quarter of a million dead, but A.S.A.P. is not too fast.

But don't take my word for it -- this stuff is being widely reported.

--d!

[walldude]

22. Actually Mr "I did my research" before I came in here and made an ass out

of myself, it wasn't "police" who were the first on the ground, it was diggers. Heavy equipment, rescue workers, soldiers, people who could help dig out survivors.

Why are the Americans controlling the airfield? Because no one else took the job,, because there is no Control Tower, because they are having to land by satellite and radio. They are bringing in 600 planes a day in a place designed to land 5. There are many countries sending aid, many different things that need to be coordinated, in the chaos and confusion some people are going to get angry, some are going to have to wait and not everyone is going to agree on the order which things need to be done.

However, there is a massive international rescue effort going on, people are there doing the best they can with what they have, and frankly to have some armchair disaster relief expert sit here and claim he did his research and America sucks, is a fucking joke. Your post is a fucking joke. Maybe you ought to get your ass down to Hati and show them how it's done.

[blues90]

23. Maybe you should learn to spell Haiti , from one armchair

disaster relief expect to another who's response is a fucking joke. One more thing , they have not been able to get heavy equipment into Haiti last I heard.

If you want to take offense to what I said about the US failing , go defend it then. We have done such a great job bombing people and building bases and drones yet we can't save people with all those resources.

Get real! You seem to claim you have all the facts , so you go show them how it's done.

Where did you get the info that no one else was willing to take the job to control the Haiti air fields. I could not find any info on that.

Be assured when one like you has to resort to calling me an ass then you have the problem to deal with, it shows me who you really are.

[walldude]

24. LMAO.. yeah go after my spelling.

Lost the debate already... :rofl: :rofl:

[blues90]

27. Yeah , Right . What fucking debate ?

All you did was come along with nothing to offer other than insults. Child like insults. I voiced my opinion , don't like it , SO WHAT!

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Yes they have... the 22nd MEU arrived like oh yesterday

so did the USS Bataan. What exactly do you think they like oh brought on board?

Or did you miss the USS Grasp, with deep sea divers like oh repairing the port?

Until the port is brought to some semblance of operational status CIVILIAN ships cannot like get there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Both, you know why? That trooper standing behind me

while I work to keep you alive, is just as important. Yes done this shit.

Compare this to oh Mexico City... when that quake hit, which was orders of magnitude stronger, but orders of magnitude less damaging, there was a brigade of MPs and 10,000 cops on the streets like oh poof. This capacity to keep rescue personnel safe did not exist here.

Get it now?

Oh and in Katrina, all lies from Honore notwithstanding, he did wait until the 101st and the 82nd were like in place and shit. My issue was HOW long it took.

[blues90]

33. Oh I get it all , I have a question for you.

How do you separate all the horror the US has dropped on so many countries and I'm talking the military industrial complex , the war machine and at the same time have a sense of pride when we actually do some good. A country that has no leadership or government to speak of.

Time will tell what the outcome will be , I hope it sticks yet we still need to get rid of this war mentality.

We can certainly ramp up for an attack real quick yet we seem to fall behind when it comes to rescue.

I'm not talking soldies , they have orderes to follow.

I am not saying Haiti should not have all efforts in place to save the people but why is it it takes something like this before anyone for the most part cared about the people of Haiti. It did not have to be like this , but these people for decades have been allowed to be ignored.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. No we cannot ramp up for an attack that fast

it took like nine months to get all the logistics in place before the troops went to Iraq

And the 2003 Afghani Campaign used locals... with Special Forces.

This is the double side edge of a military... they are Great to have in a disaster, but their job is to ultimately go out there and kill or be killed. We just do it better than others since we have the logistics to do it, and we spend the money on this... like double than the closest competitor.

I wish we could drop our military spending by orders of magnitude, I believe we need a draft, and that DOD should go back to Department of War, but in a disaster I want people who know logistics and chiefly the resources to do it. For the logistics officer moving a box of 50 cal or a box of MREs is the exact same problem, with different SKUs... and logistics also happens in the private sector. Somebody does that for oh Apple, and there is a logistics chain to get that IPOD to you. It is just mostly invisible to people.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

40. You do realize without security those other planes don't land.

We took control of the airport because it was abandoned.

[niyad]

4. I keep wondering that myself. did you catch DN yesterday? they played

mlk's "beyond vietnam" speech from 4 april 1967--very much worth reading or listening to if you have not:

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/058.html

[blues90]

12. Yes , I did . thank you for pointing that out .nt

[upi402]

5. Corporate media. People are easy to fool.

Even here at DU

[blues90]

13. So true , nt

[pscot]

6. It's filled with Americans

Same thing that's always been wrong with it. Maybe we should just give it back to the Indians.

[proteus_lives]

39. You mean Americans?

Because that's what Indians are, Americans. They aren't different from you or me.

[renegade000]

8. i thought you were going to talk about the election in MA.

i mean, that would have actually made sense.

[blues90]

11. Yeah , you make a lot of sense , I have a cat that tops you .nt

[treestar]

15. What is the reason for it?

As a professional whose clients have often expected the impossible (and any professional will get that) i sort of identify - when you are trying to do a job and critics keep at you with no idea what they are doing themselves - just because you are capable of criticizing doesn't mean you could do it better.

I often wonder what type of job you critics do - that you can do it perfectly every day without question or complaint from anyone. And how you would feel to get that from someone who has never trained for it or tried it.

[blues90]

21. I have idea what sort of professional you define yourself as

You have no idea what I am trained at either. I have training and I had to learn how to think ahead and no it is not always a perfect deal but this rescue in Haiti is not going very well.

They should have at least set up communications between the rescue crews on the ground right when they got there, they should know this and have had that part in place. You don't need cell towers to do this.

I am not "you critics" .

You say you are a professional , in what? I have taken plenty of heat from customers who have no idea what needs to be done, once I explain it they stop , that's what the news is for and they have failed in mnay respects.

News people seem to be able to get to Haiti yet supplies can't and the news people have communications , explain that.

[donheld]

16. k & U

[apocalypsehow]

25. Proud to add another UnRec to the pile of goop that is this OP. n/t.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Ask yourself HOW MANY field hospitals have already been set

and that INCLUDES DWB...

Hell they GET IT...

Perhaps go to their website and realize THEY GET IT.

It is not because we hate DWB or things like that... you know.

Here is a clue for you on how bad the situation WAS at the airport... cargo handling capacity and stuff.

The Mexican AF launched 3 C-130s in the first hours. Two were sent to the DR because of that silly shit called slots and no capacity on the ground and well, unloading cargo planes by well HAND CHAINS. The one that landed... was given priority. You know why? Not only the supplies on board. They brought a CARGO handler. Let me see ten tons of food... or a cargo handler?

That is why that plane was given priority. It was like the first one to come, followed by those brought by the AF.

Oh and do you hear anybody else complaining? Oh wait CNN is...

And you know what? CNN is pulling your heartstrings... everybody has an agenda... ask what is theirs?

[blues90]

31. That's right , everyone has an agenda , that's the problem

By the way I do not watch TV so I have no idea what CNN has to say.

You don't think that the american corporations have an agenda? Do you think they will pass on this opportunity.

Look , I am not very proud of the actions the US has taken in decades , when it comes to bombing people or nation building of robbing resource the US sure can get their act going real quick.

I feel we could be a lot better when it comes to helping people.

This is not to say there are not good people from the US trying.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. THEY ARE

the after action report on this will be interesting, and would love to be a fly on the wall

But this is the most complex disaster I have seen in my life. That includes the Tsunami.

Have people made mistakes, yes... but if you really want to find out what is being done... go to BBC... serious.

This is the extent... imagine a tactical nuke going off in downtown Los Angeles, remove the roads, remove access, remove any infrastructure before that bomb went in downtown los angeles.

The world literally had to bring in hospitals, plants to create water, food... and I could go on. And yes, security.

DWB knows this, they get it...

And we are, not just the US, the WORLD is doing the best kind of work under the circumstances. this is also the US... you call 9.11 and the standard in the US to respond is five minutes... in Port Au Prince people did not bother calling one. It took HOURS to send one before the quake... because of the geography and the roads and the lack of access.

Some of the houses in the outskirts do not even have access roads...

This is the kind of logistical challenge and the complexity.

Perhaps I get it, since this were the challenges I faced in TJ every weekend... and gosh darn it, I had more ambulances in place, and ten fire stations, not two.

[blues90]

35. I do understand the situation there .

I have gone to the BBC. I have seen all the photo's and the aerial of the air port and the lack of access. I know it looks like a nuke hit the place.

Perhaps I just can't handle seeing people trapped and dying when there has to be some way of at the very least getting water and food to the ones who are not injured. We have helicopters that can carry a tank and they can load and lift off ships. Yes there needs to be security to prevent mobs. But still I feel we could have gotten in sooner and donemore before the people reached this state of stress.

There seems more an issue of bureaucracy than response at least in my mind.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. They ARE bringing food and water

as of last night they distributed 200,000\day rations, and expect to ramp up to a million.

As to the bureaucracy, the US and other nations, have to work with the HOST country...

That is Haiti.

We are also doing the logistics, but the actual humaitarian relief is the UN shtick WITH the local government.

Edited for clarity

[blues90]

37. Well it is just a real sad and sorry situation all around

First there all these news bursts that always get it all wrong. Then we get some details which turn out to be wrong.

What is it now close 8 days now and finally part of what is needed is getting there.

I know it's not an easy task , never said it was.

You know if countries did co-operate rather than battle eachother we would have highly trained and ready rescue teams out there just in case.

But that's dreaming.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. read this link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7522751

Because there were a lot of people moved in for search and rescue.

I've done this... and the cooperation on this one leaves me in AWE.

Sad that I have to go to other places to find this info, but the info is OUT THERE.

The Mexican Press is getting it out of the UN Site. I just go troll their press since it is easier to navigate.

[aikoaiko]

41. The only explanation is that Obama hates black people.

:sarcasm: