Democrats have been showing a united front. They want universal health care.

[Luminous Animal]

Democratic politicians have ignored that united front.

[grahamhgreen]

1. Universal, NOT-FOR-PROFIT health care!

[Luminous Animal]

2. Yep. When 74% of this nation wanted Medicare for all,

there is no argument against the fact that a democratic ideal did not have a united front.

[Raine]

13. Yup real HEALTH care NOT care for big insurance & pharma nt

[Mimosa]

3. That's why I worked for candidate barack Obama from EARLY ON! n/t

[sandnsea]

4. Yeah, which ones?

And what the hell good does voting against Martha Coakley do to get Nelson or Lieberman or Lincoln or Landrieu to change their votes?

Lying about the health care bills passed does not help us get closer to a public option. It only gets a confused and angry public.

[Luminous Animal]

5. Which ones? The rank and file. The American public. The voting citizens.

Those which our elected representatives are supposed to represent. Voting against Coakley shows that their is no benefit in turning a silk purse into a sows ear.

Obama's rhetoric juxtaposed to reality (this disgusting piece of shit touted as health care reform) is how we've ended up with a confused and angry public.

[sandnsea]

6. Which politicians?

Which ones ignored the people? Because I only saw a handful ignore the people, specifically the ones I listed, but I saw you attack the ones who support your view.

:crazy:

[Luminous Animal]

8. Who did I attack? Obama?

Where was he on the bully pulpit fighting for even the mildest form (public option) of what the American citizenry, overwhelmingly, wants?

[sandnsea]

9. Again.

Which politicians were against the public option? Names Please.

And when did you organize to do something in their states?

We have got to change tactics. We've got to stop ripping apart the people who are on our side. We've suffered the consequences of doing this to Al Gore and John Kerry. Now we're going to do it to Obama too? They aren't the problem.

[Luminous Animal]

11. Every single Senator that voted for the bill without one. Every single Rep...

who will vote for this bill without one are against a public option.

And don't even start on me about political activism. I've been working on universal health care for 20 years. Prove to me that Obama is on my side. Prove to me that he is on the majority of American's side when it comes to substantive health care reform. Even he abandoned the phrase "health care reform" along about August '09 and started to frame the issue as health insurance reform.

We don't need no stinkin' health insurance reform. We need health care as good and universal as any other modern wealthy nation.

[sandnsea]

12. Names Please.

You've got to focus your activism correctly. It does no good to stand on a street corner in a town where all the representatives support you. I'm not saying that's necessarily your case, I'm saying, have been for years, we've got to find a way to get into these states with Dem Senators and bypass their media to get these people educated.

As to changing the framing of health care to health insurance, yes they changed it. People were freaking out about killing grandma and keep your hands off my health care. Since the truth is they weren't really changing how health care is delivered, and single payer isn't supposed to do that either, there was no real reason to discuss health care. Target insurance because everybody hates insurance. Of course that flew right over a number of heads.

As to Obama being on your side, frankly that doesn't matter whether you believe that or not. What matters is that you believe unified messages win and ripping apart your party leader loses.

The question is how to we bridge the gap between your belief that only the government can economically manage health care disbursements -- with the people who hate government or are scared that any alteration will leave them with the kind of health care they saw on St Elsewhere. When do we stick to the issues without attacking the individuals, which does no good when they're on our side, even if in name only.

[Luminous Animal]

14. Due to my efforts and thousands of others...

the California legislature has voted for single payer universal health care twice and vetoed by our Republican governor twice.

You can claim over an over and over again that people freaking out about government taking over health care but, poll after poll after poll revealed that the vast majority of Americans (and yes, even teabaggers) when specifically questioned if they would support Medicare for all answered in the affirmative.

The gap has already been bridged in a program that the majority of American's support across the political spectrum. Medicare.

[sandnsea]

16. Thank you for making my point

None of the politicians in question are in California, or at least none who are important as to the final vote.

People support Medicare For All as an OPTION, which does not mean they support single payer. That's the part the single payer people can never get a hold of. All those calls, you support single payer but will settle for the public option? Useless. You labeled yourself as out of the mainstream.

Regardless, I'm talking about what happens when the propaganda gets flying. It doesn't matter what the issue is. You get a gun advocate alone and they're usually quite reasonable on gun regulation too. But let the NRA start hitting the airwaves, and you get whacko voters again. That's what I'm talking about. Targeting the areas that either vote Blue Dog Dem or for local Dems, and when they get bombarded with crap, make sure we're there to bombard them back. And not with a California liberal message, but a message they can relate to.

[Luminous Animal]

17. Medicare for all is single payer. People may not realize it but it is about framing.

Republicans have successfully frightened folks about single payer and yet they've not been successful with doing the same with Medicare. Thus, you can take a poll and ask, "Do you support single payer?" and people will freak out about government take over of health care. Then, you can ask the same people, "Do you believe in expanding Medicare for all?" And they will totally agree. Howard Dean said much the same on Maddow tonight. That health care reform would have been much more palatable if Medicare had been expanded and, perhaps, Coakley would not have lost.

[sandnsea]

18. As An Option. Option.

People do not support eliminating everything else and forcing everybody into Medicare For All.

That's why we keep having so many problems passing any kind of health care reform. Stop talking about single payer completely, and we might be able to get it out of people's heads.

[Luminous Animal]

19. Oh, single payer was never on Obama's or most any other elected Dems radar.

And neither was Medicare for all. So not only did the vast majority of our elected representatives NOT talk about single payer, nor did they ever talk about forcing people into Medicare for all. Unfortunately, for all of us, they never once took the reigns of the dialog even advocating for an option.

But I won't stop talking about single payer. I'm pretty sure I won't see it before I die. But, it took 80 years of activism for women to get the vote so I have hope for future Americans.

[sandnsea]

20. Did I say them? I said YOU

As long as groups like yours push single payer any time the topic of health care comes up - THE RIGHT will push every comment you make and confuse people into believing they're getting government health care.

I'm not saying never talk about single payer. I am saying there's a time and a place and this year was not that time. It would have been so helpful if we had all just rallied around the HELP Bill in June.

[Luminous Animal]

21. Screw that.

If the Dem establishment, their majority in congress, and with their millions of dollars and PR apparatus can't define their position and sell it to the public, then they've got a much bigger problem than the single payer advocates.

After all, Bush took the bully pulpit to sell the Iraq war. And that is the gift that keeps on giving.

[sandnsea]

22. When the left and the right call them liars

Then guess what the public believes. That they're liars. And they don't vote for them.

[Leopolds Ghost]

25. That's your problem sandnsea, you believe any reform that works requires forcing Americans to buy it

Hence mandated everything.

Eminent domain for urban redevelopment is another good example of DLC corporate statism that depends on individual mandates to purchase goods enforce policy.

Instead of providing real options,

The objective is to isolate and penalize those who reject the "option".

[sandnsea]

26. No, I believe that lots of things will work

I oppose the mandates, if you will recall from the primary, and I still do. But I know we have them because of the liberal wing of the Senate, not the Blue Dogs. And I understand that it's part of the deal to get the pre-existing language in the bill. I accept that.

Medicaid (not Medicare) For All is my preferred health care choice, a right given to citizens with a card at bird, not a mandate. Since I haven't seen any mass movement for that - in any state - I accept reality.

Subsidized insurance gets the votes. Oh, okay. That will work. Let's do that.

See how simple thinking is?

[DeadEyeDyck]

7. Maybe we asked for a Christmas present that was too

big to fit into the stocking!

[Luminous Animal]

10. Yes. 74% of us want what the entire western world enjoys.

For any other wealthy nation, it is considered an unquestioned fact of life. For us, it is a spoiled brat's gift from Santa.

[Luminous Animal]

15. kick

[Hannah Bell]

23. k/r

[Norrin Radd]

24. kr