Check my logic: a silver lining in the MA Senate defeat?

[WilliamPitt]

59.

That means two things.

1. Obama will now have to dump all this big-hug bipartisan/centrism crap and actually get things done with a still-pretty-damned-big working majority.

...and this is the big one...

2. Joe Lieberman is now de-nutted. He no longer has the 60th-vote cudgel to wield. Plus, his approval ratings in Coinnecticut are slightly lower than scabies. He'll be gone after the next election.

I live in Massachusetts, and it feels like a building fell on me last night.

But these are two good things.

Right?

We can make some serious lemonade from this.

Right?

[lame54]

1. Let's hope this is rock bottom - and we start re-habbing

[berni_mccoy]

2. Yes, and according to MSNBC this morning, it sounds as if the Obama Admin is taking a hard left

response to the election. They know bipartisanship has failed and they know it's time to beat some GOP and ConservaDem heads.

I expect they'll go the reconciliation route to force the HCR bill, something more like the House version. The Administration won't let it go and the House won't vote for a weaker bill.

[DJ13]

16. I saw Axelrod and Gibbs on there

Sounds good, but so did Obama's election speeches.

We'll have to wait to see if Obama follows through, or if its just more empty marketing.

[hisownpetard]

3. Yeah, some serious lemonade. I agree. Depressing as hell, though, to think

that MA (my state, too) elected a torture-loving mini-Romney to bring them
"change."

Still cannot believe it. Can't even imagine how Vicki Kennedy must feel right now.
What a damn shame!

[CTyankee]

4. Heh, Joe's sideshow just folded and left town.

I hope he likes it with all the lights and cameras off him. I guess this is the worse payback that we could give him!

Only hope you are right that Obama will pivot and start being a progressive. Even if he's been dragged there kicking and screaming it's better than nothin' which is what we had before...

[tblue]

14. Yup. He's a quick study. Just hope he doesn't learn the wrong lesson.

If he stays centrist or veers right, I think I'm done. There's only so much disappointment this little soul can take.

[meegbear]

5. Learn - Rebuild - WIN

[T Wolf]

6. Number two first (and he certainly is) - LIEberman should be neutered, but I fear that

Obama and the Dem "leadership" will still cater to him and the pukes instead of their own.

Number one - Obama will NEVER dump his bipartisan sell-out strategy because it enables him to accomplish little and still feel good about "moving into a post-partisan" way of doing things.

Image means more than results.

Now - if you disagree with that and think that he is more concerned with accomplishments, look at the bankster and Wall Street bailouts and lack of re-regulation of the economy for his "accomplishments."

Which would you rather believe?

[elocs]

Yes, in the big picture I don't believe the MA loss was too terrible.

It would be nice now it Lieberman was invited to cross the aisle and caucus with the Republicans where he rightly belongs.

[hlthe2b]

7. Right now, I'm just holding on to the fact my dog still loves me...

to keep me sane ;)


But, I appreciate the possible positives to focus on--especially the "defanging of Lieberman" point, which I should hope would be the case.

[mopinko]

24. i'm just so glad that

i have 4 dogs. :crazy:

[Beetwasher]

8. Yes, Also, Now That There's No Real Chance Of Busting Fillibusters

Maybe the Dems will really start to play hardball and begin to truly consider the reconciliation process as a real option (and not just for HCR). Also, maybe it will motivate them to seriously consider revamping the fillibuster rules.

[cascadiance]

19. The filibuster rule CAN be NUKED, despite corporate media's hiding this info!

THAT should be done now.

If it can be nuked and the Dems spend the rest of the year passing decent progressive bills that most Americans support, then they will be given more seats to use in the coming years, and more likely with true progressives and the DINOS get thrown out if they stand against these bills. We just need to have confidence that working for the people will preserve the majority in the Senate needed.

Doing nothing, and throwing up our hands in the blame game will just make our situation worse, not better. What have we got to lose now?

Perhaps go through reconciliation first, and up front state that if that is made difficult by Republicans or Blue Dogs, then the nuclear option will be used to pass what the people want.

[Beetwasher]

29. Yes, It Can Be, Though I'd Prefer Tinkering Rather Than Outright Nuking

There are ways to still keep it, but make it less of an abused, obstructionist tool. For example, make it 55 needed for cloture. Or 60 on the first vote, 58 on the second, 55 on the third etc.

[cascadiance]

31. Harkin's bill to do something like this should happen.

The threat to nuke it altogether should be made with as much fervor as the Republicans made their threat. But ultimately, we need to take out the obstructionist DINOS out of the equation so that we can get something done.

Ultimately, the people will be happy if we pass something that benefits them, and the bill needs a chance to pass without getting compromised to the point of failure. That will give us rewards in the future.

The Republicans in the same position would do something like this. They wouldn't continue to throw up their hands next year. That is a sign that there are hidden DINOs that don't want to lose the 60 vote cloture "cover" to avoid publicly exposing their commitment to non-action to their corporate sponsors in exchange for campaign money.

If Dems can't pass it with a 50 vote majority, then that will be a REAL barrier, and not a manufactured one. And we'll expose more of the obstructionists that need to be taken out of office in the coming months in the process.

[Beetwasher]

33. I Agree Wholeheartedly

n/t

[Better Believe It]

56. What filibusters? There haven't been any real filibusters in the Senate

I haven't seen any on C-Span.

Have you?

Did I miss a few hundred C-Span filibuster alerts on DU?

[Beetwasher]

60. WTF Are You Talking About?

This isn't Mr. Smith goes to washington. Fillibusters don't work like that anymore.

Repubs tried and failed to fillibuster HCR.

[Better Believe It]

63. WTF do you mean? Are you that unfamiliar with Senate rules?

1. Senator Reid has the power to force a traditional filibuster under current Senate rules. Are you familiar with Senate Rule 22?

2. Senator Reid and the Democratic majority have the power to end the "two track" Senate debate procedure currently in place. Do you even know what that is?

3. Senator Reid and the Democratic majority have the power to invoke the Constitutional Option. Do you know what that is?

The Senate moves to vote on a controversial nominee.
At least 41 Senators call for filibuster.
The Senate Majority Leader raises a point of order, saying debate has gone on long enough and that a vote must be taken within a certain time frame. (Current Senate rules requires a cloture vote at this point.)
The Vice President -- acting as presiding officer -- sustains the point of order.
A Democratic Senator appeals the decision.
A Republican Senator moves to table the motion on the floor (the appeal).
This vote - to table the appeal - is procedural and cannot be subjected to a filibuster; it requires only a majority vote (in case of a tie, the Vice President casts the tie-breaking vote).
With debate ended, the Senate would vote on the issue at hand; this vote requires only a majority of those voting. The filibuster has effectively been closed with a majority vote instead of a three-fifths vote.

The Republicans only need 51 Senators to pass their legislative proposals, the Democrats whine and complain that they need 60!

Bull shit!

[Beetwasher]

64. Uhh, Jeenyus, Did You Actually Read My Post????

Are you saying that Repubs aren't obstructing Dem legislation? Really? If it is so easy to override fillibusters, why didn't the Repubs do this instead of threatening to nuke it when Dems threatened to use it?

Gosh, if it's so simple to override a fillibuster. Just use a point of order! :eyes:

[Better Believe It]

68. When you see an actual Republican filibuster on C-Span please alert everyone on DU.

Haven't seen any this year yet.

Will you do that?

[Beetwasher]

69. Why Would We? Apparently We Can Just Wave Magic Wands And They Go Away!!!

You so smart! :rofl:

[warrior1]

9. I concur

[mulsh]

10. I hope you're right

but..um... according to the village voice the republicans have a 41-59 majority, Will.

I sure hope you're right about Lieberman, even my a-political wife loathes that guy.

[AspenRose]

11. I could use some hard lemonade right about now.

[spanone]

12. we'd better

[Tom Rinaldo]

13. Right...

A 60 vote margin proved a cruel master, no bold step could please it, only deeper compromises, yet it was oh so seductive to try to hold onto. Now it is gone and no longer needs attending to. Time to get down to legislating a program Obama believes in with a solid 50+ vote majority. No Senate centrist can any longer demand poison pill favors from Obama that neuter the thrust of his policies in return for that magical 60th vote.

[Beetwasher]

17. I Like That Description

"Cruel master". Indeed. :thumbsup:

[WilliamPitt]

22. +1

I agree with the Beetster. Well said.

[tblue]

36. What are his policies?

Flame me if you want. I'm just not convinced what Obama wants is what we want. But if you're right about what 50+ can do, we'll all soon know what "his policies" are, now that he's been liberated from the 60-vote master.

[Tailormyst]

15. Will: Here is my own silver lining

I've been slowly sinking into frustration, disillusionment, lack of a direction, anger, bitterness, etc at much of what has happened since November 08. Last night was like being slammed in the stomach with a sledge hammer. This morning as the day goes on, I found my silver lining. I'm going to turn my anger into something productive and throw what had been my passion for the party into a more narrowed focus on progressive candidates. I contacted PDA and Capuano's office asking what I can do to help in a much more hands on way. I am not great writer or speaker, but I am a damn good office admin sort of person.

I am furious with the Democratic Leadership, pitchfork and torch furious, and I am going to do all I can to put people into power that TRULY believe in progressive ideals, not ones that just play lip service to them on election cycles.

[barb162]

18. A wakeup call is better now than the next election.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

20. Three.. really.

3. Scott Brown only has 2 years before he's reelected.

This is the time NOW to find who could beat him. Possibly starting now, try to distract him from working in DC? ;-)

[bigwillq]

21. Those are good things.

Let's hope our DEM leadership does the right thing regarding No. 1 in your post.
I think Lieberman doesn't run in 2012. If he does, I think he will be defeated.

:hi::hug:

[cascadiance]

26. I'm sure that Lieberman's wife already has a cushy job lined up for him...

... in the health care lobbyist industry somewhere. Perhaps we can make that more difficult if we can make him unsuccessful by getting something decent passed despite his efforts to fight it.

[BrklynLiberal]

23. Well...we can sure try for some lemonade here....

:thumbsup:

[peace frog]

25. It would be terrific, but

I think it's more likely instead that we will hear: "Golly darn it all, we lost our super majority so now we can't get any progressive legislation passed in Congress. But shucks, since bipartisanship is working so gosh-darn well it's on to a regressive legislation agenda!"

[laughingliberal]

27. I believe we can make Lemonade from Lemons

I seriously hope to see the big-hug bipartisan/centrism crap dumped. I fear there is the chance it will be read as a signal to go further that direction but really hope not

And I LOVE that Lieberman is no longer able to be King for a day whenever the fuck he chooses.

Remember the President said, "Make me do it." Let's marshall our efforts towards that.

corrected title

[tinrobot]

28. You're giving scabies a bad name...

But, yes, you are right. No-nuts-Joe is a very good thing.

[Guilded Lilly]

30. Guzzling that lemonade...:)

because I think you your logic is very very sound.

The media sure helps in the panic driving. The drama is predictable. The pontificating will be intense... but this is the loss of a two year seat. Joe Lieberman has just lost his self serving sword of obstructionism. The Dems never really had a super majority with him on the list and now they will have to get strong. Obama has it in him. I don't think for one moment he wants to lose. And this will force some serious spine strengthening.

It isn't the drastic end of anything, but could be the beginning of some serious change...in the way that campaign CHANGE we were promised is accomplished.

[Zoeisright]

32. I hope it's true about that asshole Lieberman.

I really, really want to see him de-nutted.

[Birthmark]

34. The Senate should dump the filibuster at this point.

It's time for majority rule again.

[dave29]

35. no matter how big your majority

you still need 60 to beat the filibuster.

[tblue]

39. Why do we allow this to continue?

Is there one testicle amongst the Democrats in Washington? Oh yeah. Alan Grayson. Russ Feingold. Barbara Boxer. Dennis and the CBC. And that's about it.

[thereismore]

37. Your No. 1 is already getting iffy as the Prez speaks. No. 2, YES!!! nt

[Better Believe It]

38. Looks like Obama will be staying the course on bi-partisanship

"1. Obama will now have to dump all this big-hug bipartisan/centrism crap and actually get things done with a still-pretty-damned-big working majority."

Well, it looks like he's not going that way. President Obama could announce an executive order any day now to form a "bi-partisan" commission that will go after entitlements and perhaps increase taxes or end some of Bush's tax cuts.

[hfojvt]

40. well #1 seems totally wrong, exactly backwards

without a sixty vote majority we probably need more bipartisanship and not less. It's kinda odd that Republicans are already claiming that Obama has not been bipartisan. They vote in lockstep against everything and it is Obama who has not been bipartisan?

[laughingliberal]

46. "without a sixty vote majority we probably need more bipartisanship and not less."

Let's see. Republicans didn't vote for our legislation even when we totally gutted every hint of progressive items and caved to more corporocrap. Why would 'more bipartisanship' get us anywhere? Republicans are still not going to vote for any Democratic legislation. And it will continue to make Democrats look as if they can't govern which is always the accusation of the right. It's time to do a few things we can do by reconciliation and get this ball rolling for the people sitting out here losing their jobs and their homes. I know this corporate friendly crap that has been passing as 'bipartisanship' may appeal to some but not enough for Democrats to win elections.

[hfojvt]

48. just for the record

I have never been happy with bipartisanship rhetoric

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/89

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/5

but in pracical terms, you do need to either get past a fillibuster or make Republicans pay for fillibustering. It's hard to hit them for fillibustering health care reform when that is apparently even what the voters of liberal Massachusetts want them to do.

[laughingliberal]

49. Yes, I did not think you were a proponent of bipartisan rhetoric so that was a bit confusing

And it's a problem as long as the Senate sticks with this arcane rule. But it is time we pushed through some things that could be done under reconciliation that would help people. I believe some of the things that would have the most impact could be done with that.

[hfojvt]

50. I must admit that I am not up to speed as to what we/they can do

with reconciliation. However, I do not care for calls to eliminate the fillibuster. That sounds like a double standard to me, and I remember how we were up in arms when Republicans threatened to 'go nuclear' (that is, eliminate the fillibuster). If it wasn't right then, and I didn't think it was, then it isn't right now. My preference is still towards making our case to the people. Educating them as to the benefits of progressive legislation and progressive ideals and then having the voters, especially in places like Maine and Rhode Island and Iowa and forcing the Senators to go along.

[laughingliberal]

54. You have a point but it overlooks the fact that Democrats never used the filibuster to the extent

it is now being used. They did use it to filibuster some of Bush's extremist right wing judges but I have never seen it used to block every piece of legislation a party tries to bring to the floor. So, if the Republicans were only using the filibuster for specific pieces of legislation they chose judiciously or judges they deemed extreme I would be irritated by it but not feel we could, in good conscience, call for the nuclear option. This is not that situation. This is total, all out obstructionism by the minority party being used to thwart the will of the majority and, by proxy, the will of the electorate. And they have made it clear it is their intent to continue this. I think the situation is drastic and requires drastic action. The play book they are using is the same one that was used against the Weimar Republic in Germany when they were elected after WWI to correct the abuses of the right They all out obstructionism the right employed against them as they tried to correct the problems of the country the right had brought about themselves worked and led to the rise of Hitler. Here is a link to an article from March that details it. There is no way to read this without seeing it is, exactly, where we are sitting right this minute. Capitulation and playing nice is not going to fight this force. Our only hope at this point is for the Democrats to stand up to their corporate donors, quit bailing out the fat cats, and pass some legislation that will get the help to the people quickly. If we fail to take whatever steps we have to in order to get that done, the country is done for.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/03/15

Educating the public would be good but would, likely, require the cooperation of the MSM and we are not likely to see that. We do need to keep trying but getting our message out has been difficult, at best, for the past 20 years. That is partially due to the fact that our message is muddled by the triangulation with the corporatists. A clear populist message with policy stands that help average Americans would be easier to push but we aren't getting that. Once the people get some help it will be hard for the MSM to convince them they aren't getting help and the spin will not have the power it does.

[Beetwasher]

57. Actually, I Don't Think The Dems Even Used The Fillibuster At All

During Bush's terms. I think they threatened to use it to block extremist judicial nominations, and in response to the mere threat, the Repubs were going to nuke it. I don't believe it was ever even used once. I could be wrong, but that's my recollection.

That being said, I don't agree w/ nuking the fillibuster, although I do agree w/ you on it's extreme abuse by Repubs.

I would opt for THREATENING nuking, but compromising by tinkering with it in some way so it can't be used to obstruct indefinitely.

[laughingliberal]

65. That would be okay if it works. If not we really need to do it. The stakes are grave at this point.

Course if I keep seeing the same types of ineffective and/or wrong direction legislation coming from our side, I don't guess it would matter much.

[Arkana]

41. Maybe.

It means we'll get a much stronger candidate in 2012 for Kennedy's Senate seat.

And next time we're gonna win.

[lapislzi]

42. I'll bring the vodka

And we can have us a party.

[LynneSin]

43. Will, in 2012 Massachusettians will see what a nutjob they elected

He'll be long since gone by then.

[pipi_k]

62. I think so too, and for anyone who mistakenly thinks that

Massachusetts has "gone red" they should know that the people of Mass can be an ornery bunch.

If 2012 rolls around and Scottie Brown hasn't done shit to improve the political landscape, then we'll be just as quick to kick him out on his ass as some of us (not me!) were to vote him in.


er...that's if he doesn't get caught in some big sex scandal or something...

:evilgrin:

[TomClash]

44. Well . . .

. . . Truck Day is February 12th.

Wishful thinking - I think No. 1 is the big one and we'll find out in the SOTU. Lieberman isn't up until 2012, that's 3 long years.

[quabbin]

45. Good points Will

Big fan of your writing on this here blog. Also fellow MA resident. I'm feeling sucker punched today like everybody else. Anything that diminishes Lieberman's stature is a plus for our side. Brown is going to be under intense scrutiny in DC. I don't think he really is ready for prime time. MA Dem's must start working on finding a very strong candidate to unseat him in 2012. I think by then his behavior in Washington will have pissed off enough folks here in MA.

[TexasObserver]

47. What was the little boy's name in The King and I?

Whenever I feel afraid
I hold my head erect
And whistle a happy tune
So no one will suspect
I'm afraid.

I'm FOR whistling.

[Edweird]

51. If he actually moves to the left and fights, he could pull out of the political tailspin.

[KonaKane]

52. Only if Obama actually acts on his intentions

If the MSNBC story is correct, he is sufficiently swatted with what happened in Mass. to turn left - as he should have done from the beginning.

I still support Obama, but at this point I'd need to see some action on that threat before any possibility that your silver lining will see the light of day.

[PVnRT]

53. You're presuming Harry Reid is anything but a spineless prick

who, by the way, is also up for re-election this year, so he's got that going for him.

[ibegurpard]

55. Let us hope so

I await Lieberman being kicked out of the Dem caucus and stripped of his chairmanship...if those two things happen I will begin to take them seriously.

[grahamhgreen]

58. Agreed.

[Hello_Kitty]

59. From your keyboard to Congress and the Admin's ears. eom

[rucky]

61. And since it's 60 to get anything, expect to get nothing. n/t

[morningglory]

66. Thanks for the "chin up!" And thanks for your blog yesterday, I read it

all day while at work. You have always meant a lot to me and I appreciate your posts.

[wordpix]

67. +1