NOW,...Kill THIS mutant monster Republican HCR Bill,...And then...

[bvar22]

Split off the BEST issues and work to pass them as Clean, Stand Alone Bills, one at a time.


*A Clean, Stand Alone bill for Pre-Existing Conditions

*A Clean, Stand Alone bill removing the Anti-Trust exemption for Health Insurance Corporations

*A Clean, Stand Alone bill dropping the age limit on Medicare to 55


Keep these bills short and simple.
Easy for Americans to READ and Understand.
Then insist on Roll Call votes.

Let The Republicans publicly oppose these very popular reforms.


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[jgraz]

1. And push medicare extension and public option through with 50+Biden.

[sandnsea]

2. And fuck everybody under 55??

Honestly. And how are people going to pay $400+ a person for Medicare anyway.

I'm relatively sure Pelosi has a better idea than this, at least she better.

[laughingliberal]

5. $400+ per person for Medicare. Score!

We were paying a lot more than that before we turned 55.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laughingliberal]

14. I have no insurance and no money but the premium you mentioned was less than we paid when we had it

Actually for the 2 of us it would be a savings of $400 per month. We had to drop what we had when we went broke.

For people who don't qualify for a subsidy and are over 55 this could be a lot less money. A couple making over $58,280 per month will not get a subsidy and our premiums were $14,400 per year. A premium for Medicare for both of us at $400 per month would be $9,600 per year. And I would say that a couple at $60,000 per year would find $1200 per month a stretch. It is over 25% of their income.

It appears, at times, you think anyone who does not see it your way should shut the fuck up. I do get it. I've worked in health care in some of the poorest populations in this country. I was also once middle class and made poor by health care costs. I get it about both groups and they all deserved better than to have the corporatists in our government sell us out on a blow job to the for profit health care industry.

[sandnsea]

24. That's $400+ per person

That's what it costs a senior to buy into Medicare if they don't have enough quarters in.

The subsidies are part of the insurance plan. If that isn't in the bill, there's nothing that say Medicare will get a subsidy.

I don't even know what it's like to raise a family on $60,000 a year, let alone just me and hubby living on that. That would be the jackpot to me. I could surely pay my fair share of health costs making that much money too. I sincerely hope that isn't what you're calling "broke". I know some people are.

Like I said, most people are looking out only for themselves and when they have to choose between their pocketbook and the uninsured, they choose their pocketbook every time. No different than Republicans and that's the real reason Republicans win.

[laughingliberal]

26. Yes, it's $400 per person

Check my math. For a couple that is $9600 per year. We were paying $14,400 per year before we had to drop ours. Our income this past year is well within the poverty levels that the Senate bill would expand Medicaid to but I will say that in this part of the country $60,00 a year for a couple who have worked for 30+ years does not provide that high a standard of living. YMMV.

Considering it is generally accepted that a mortgage should not exceed 25% of income it becomes obvious that a premium which is 25% of income, especially if already paying said mortgage of 25% of income would render these people somewhat poor. A mortgage of 25% of income added to a premium of 25% of income means shelter and housing is now 50%of income. These people may not be broke now but they will be once housing and health insurance costs half of their income. May sound like easy street to you but out in these parts it's not so cushy.

This is not the first time I have noted that I am not looking out for myself. I would get Medicaid under the Senate bill. If I only cared about myself and my pocketbook I would support it. Those who support it and minimize the effect it would have on those they perceive as having hit the jackpot are just as culpable and are ignoring the greater effect on the real economy which is downward pressure forever more on working and middle class Americans. I don't consider it worth it. The anger at those who oppose this bill would be better directed at those who could have written legislation that would have done more good than harm and chose to fellate the corporate interests.

Most people at 55 do have their quarters in. I've had 40 quarters in since I was in my 30's.

[bvar22]

10. No.

Take care of that next year.

The age group between 55 and 65 are the most at risk today due to health concerns at that age and the extreme difficulty for the age group to find employment.
Don't even call the bill "Medicare Expansion", but something like "Emergency Help for Working Americans". Almost everybody has family members in this age group.



Make this as CLEAN and SIMPLE as possible.
Little, clean, digestible steps will make it easier to sell to America, and harder for the Republican screamer to obstruct.

"how are people going to pay $400+ a person for Medicare anyway."

ANSWER: Raise taxes on Wall Street Banks and the very RICH.
This is an easy sell to America today.
When Obama promised to pay for Health Care by raising taxes on those who make over $200,000/year, America LIKED that and voted FOR him.

Flood the TV with videos of Working Class Mother and Father struggling to keep the family together.
Let the Republicans TRY to attack THAT.

This would be a much easier sell and and easier fight that the nightmare we have now.

AND, unlike the current 2000+ page indecipherable labyrinth of Corporate Welfare,
This small step WILL open the door to Single Payer.

[sandnsea]

12. "take care of that next year"

In other words, fuck everybody under 55. Let me guess, you're close to or over 55.

[bvar22]

20. Offering a way for everybody to get there.

If The Democrats DON'T change their strategy, nobody gets there for a long, LONG time.

QED in Massachusetts.

or do YOU support trying to "ram through" the current Plans which don't kick in for 4 years at the earliest.
.
.
.
What IS it you want?
and HOW do YOU propose we get there?

[sandnsea]

21. Subsidies for whatever people have now

and expanding Medicaid is a lot faster way to get to single payer than pacifying the old people who will quit caring as soon as they get theirs, as we've seen from their demands to protect their Medicare even if everyone else dies. That's exactly what will happen if the only thing we do is expand it to those over 55. It's the damn dumbest idea I've ever heard. Who votes? Oh yeah, the people over 55. we also saw with Mass that when people get theirs, even Democrats, they quickly tell everybody else to pay for their own.

We've got to bring everybody in so they even know what it is to have medical coverage. That's the only way they'll fight for more in the future.

[bvar22]

25. Then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I will never be able to support "subsidies" for people to hand over to the For Profit Health Insurance Cartel. That is nothing more than a massive transfer of Public Wealth to Corporations who manufacture NOTHING, and produce No Wealth (value added). That way only entrenches, enriches, and strengthens those who have caused the problem.

Your attack on the Boomers appears to be more of a personal problem than a good political strategy.

IMO, incremental steps every year is an easier "sell" to the American People, and a much harder concept for the Republicans to attack, especially if the first expansion is framed as an "Emergency Measure". The Reality IS that it is much harder for members of this age group to find employment and Employer Based Health Care. Almost every American family has a member or a neighbor in this category. We can address that specific problem, AND open the door at the same time.

The first little step would in fact open the door to Single Payer, and valid arguments at further expansion to younger people as a "cost effective" way of expanding the risk pool would be an even easier way to sell "Saving Medicare" in subsequent years.

The MAIN problem I have observed so far has been a fear based objection to "government taking over Health Care".
An Everybody or Nobody approach would STILL have to deal with that irrational but very REAL fear.

I'm not a huge fan of "incrementalism", but in this case, especially after the failure of the last year top produce Health "Care" reform, I believe that it is the BEST approach to actually take a step in the right direction, and have a BEST chance of achieving "Medicare for Everybody".

Again, agree to disagree, but thanks for posting a rational alternative plan that does indeed have some merit.

[sandnsea]

27. I *am* a boomer

I've just observed the number of people, right on this board, when all the tales of woe of the poor and uninsured go to the wayside, what they want will only benefit them. I've seen it over and over and over. If you pass the 55 and up, it will NEVER get expanded to everybody because those are the people who vote. That is just human nature. I've come to accept it, not approve of it.

If we can get young people accustomed to being able to see a doctor whenever they need to, then they're not going to accept these ever increasing premiums and pre-existing bullshit. As long as we lead them to believe health care is accident care, then they'll continue to live at risk. Again, human nature of the young.

I just paid a $75 water bill today. $75. Okay, $73.63. Water and sewer. To some private enterprise?? No. To the city. It doesn't hurt my pocketbook any less that it went to the government. And ultimately, where does that money go? To some private contractor who has an in with the city. So what the hell is the difference really?

I long ago gave up on the idea that there was any way to keep government money and corporate money separate. One way or another, the 1% will get it all. I'll fight like hell where I can, like with that horrific SCOTUS ruling today.

But when it comes to regular people seeing a doctor?? I'll be damned if I split hairs over whether a doctor has more right to be a millionaire than an insurance agent, or a pharmaceutical researcher is more corrupt than a mri salesman. There is piles of money made in medicine. I didn't make the corporate capitalist system. I sure as hell am not going to get in the way of any plan that allows everybody to see a doctor and I do not give a red rusty fuck who gets rich from it.

[bvar22]

28. There is a BIG difference paying your money to The City...

The City then bids out contracts for Corporations to produce the actual work....competition.
The City, and The People, THEN can hold those doing The Work accountable.

Corporations that deliver water and sewer services ALSO produce "wealth" in the community by providing a "Value Added" Service. Health Insurance Corporations provide NO such Value Added Wealth.

Subsidies to BUY For Profit Health Insurance go directly to the Corporations with ONLY the individual consumer providing any oversight, and THAT through very limited choices. No collective bargaining Power or collective accountability is possible with this method.

If "The Boomers" can understand that expanding the risk pool to the younger ages will make THEIR costs less (and it WILL), this should be an easy SELL.

I am also a "Boomer". I will be 60 next month, and haven't had Health Insurance for 8 years.
I live on a LOW "taxable" income, and WOULD qualify for a NICE "subsidy" under the Senate Plan.
I STILL strongly OPPOSE the current plan on principle.

We CAN do better.
We MUST do better.

[sandnsea]

33. Ack

Family came over and I got sidetracked. Then I wrote out a big long post, and got the dreaded lost my cookies error.

To the point, here. Medicare Administrative Contracts. I do not see anything that says they have to be nonprofit.

This one was created by BCBS of Arkansas.

http://www.pinnaclebsi.com

They get us one way or the other.

[bvar22]

32. Absolutely agree on the "horrific SCOTUS ruling today."

Also:
"I long ago gave up on the idea that there was any way to keep government money and corporate money separate. One way or another, the 1% will get it all. I'll fight like hell where I can,"


My wife and I came to the same conclusion you expressed above, and moved to The Woods and planted a Big Garden in 2006.
We live on a low "taxable" income
We buy almost nothing NEW.
What we can't make ourselves, we buy or barter 2nd hand or salvage and make it work...
or do without.

We are no longer "Good American Consumers".
Next year, we will consume even less.

WE agree in principle on the BIG stuff.
Our disagreement is a relative minor one concerning implementation which is a rather subjective crystal ball gazing proposition.

Thanks for your substantive replies, and good luck on the rocky roads ahead.
:hi:

[Nite Owl]

3. This time make sure

pre-existing conditions is with a community rating, they can't charge more than for anyone else. The Senate bill was a bad joke.

[laughingliberal]

4. +1000 nt

[asdjrocky]

6. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Just imagine what it would be like if we had a President and a Congress that would support these simple measures that would save and improve so many lives.

Too bad big business will never let it happen. And too bad our President and Congress will let the corporations run the table.

[sandnsea]

8. Are you kidding me?

You've done nothing but piss and moan for months about subsidies to bring monthly premiums down to an affordable level - but you think $400+ premiums for Medicare is a good idea? That will leave most of the country still without a doctor?? How can you think that is wonderful????

[asdjrocky]

9. Who are you talking to?

[inna]

11. KR+5 and off to the Greatest!

:kick:

[bvar22]

13. Thanks!

There IS a way out of this nightmare.

* Would you favor or oppose the national government offering everyone the choice of a government administered health insurance plan — something like the Medicare coverage that people 65 and older get — that would compete with private health insurance plans?

Favor 82%

Oppose 14%

Not Sure 4%

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010010320/poll-shouts-message-massachusetts-voters-were-sending

LESS than 35% of ALL Americans support Mandates without a Public Option.
It is suicide to keep pushing the Senate Bill.

Who could have foreseen that letting Joe Lieberman and Olympia Snow dictate the HCR Bill would PISS OFF so many Democrats? :shrug:

MUCH better to just call it a "bad idea", trash can it, and get as FAR away from that Republican/Corporate Welfare nightmare as possible, and NEVER mention it again.

"When given the choice between a Republican, and a Democrat who acts like a Republican, the voters will choose the Republican every time." ---Harry Truman

QED

[laughingliberal]

15. +1000 nt

[cali]

16. that would be nice. all will be filibustered.

[Jennicut]

17. Should have changed the filibuster rules a long time ago.

Rethugs just abuse it to obstruct to begin with.

[bvar22]

18. Let them filabuster.

If the individual bills are kept CLEAN and SIMPLE,
let the Republicans go on record as OPPOSING these popular ISSUES.

It will be much harder to proselytize bogus claims about a 3 page bill that Americans can read for themselves.
It will no longer be Republicans opposing "Massive government takeover of Health Care".

It WILL be "Republicans favor letting Health Insurance Corporations DUMP Americans."

OR

"Republicans don't want YOUR Mom & Dad to BUY Medicare."

[bullwinkle428]

22. Exactly - let these bastards get up there and read the phone book

for 4 days, 5 days straight, and let the American people decide whether their actions are HELPING or HURTING them!!

[invictus]

19. K&R

[slipslidingaway]

23. knr nt

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Faryn Balyncd]

30. K and R

[jannyk]

31. Yes!!! k&r