Navy moves to allow women on submarines

[ampad]

I must of been out of the loop for a while. This story is pretty old.


(AP)Submariners sleep nine to a bunk room. There are four showers and seven toilets for the roughly 140 enlisted men. The passageways on board the vessel are so narrow that crew members can barely squeeze by each other without touching.

And that's on the roomiest submarines.

The Navy is considering allowing women to serve aboard submarines for the first time, 16 years after bringing female sailors onto surface combat ships.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/13/ap/national/main5382429.shtml

[Craftsman]

1. The Love Uboat

[Robb]

2. What's long and hard and

...I'm not going to tell it, I'm just going to say if women want to serve on subs, they should.

[ampad]

4. I agree

My husband is a sub sailor. I just don't understand what took so long to allow this. We have three girls together. I think it is great that our girls have the option to follow in their father's footsteps if they choose to. The concern over affairs and what not have to do with the people who decide to go that route. I have no concern whatsoever.

[Captain Hilts]

6. I was really pissed when I learned I couldn't follow dad into the sub service.

As you know, accountability for behavior is MUCH higher in subs.

[ampad]

27. I decided against the navy and joined the air force

for that very reason. My father was a sub guy as well.

[Captain Hilts]

31. We should have joined the Coast Guard. nt

[Dappleganger]

33. Serving on a sub straightened out my brother-in-law.

He had dropped out of college so he joined the Navy to serve on a sub. His smart ass was straightened out very quickly when he learned they don't put up with anything! That was the best thing that ever happened to him, IMO.

[NNN0LHI]

3. I thought we had this one all worked out in 1959 with Operation Petticoat?

I seen it.

Don

[Captain Hilts]

7. That one's second only to "Down Periscope," which is a documentary.

Tony Curtis as the completely corrupt supply officer is BRILLIANT.

[Lasher]

15. My dad was aboard a WWII diesel boat that actually did rescue some women.

She was USS Nautilus (SS-168) on War Patrol 10 during June 1944. Seventeen evacuees from Negros Island in the Philippines included 4 women, one child, and 12 male adults including 1 German prisoner of war.

I think my dad said they kept the 4 women in officers quarters and there were few among the crew who saw them. In those days they hot racked and sailors often wore nothing but undershorts due to heat and humidity.

Today's boats are relative luxury liners, so maybe it's time for the US to have female submariners. I noticed in the article that other navies had tried this. I wonder how that's working out for them. I know I would be all for it if I were a submariner, particularly if everybody still runs around in their underwear.

[Captain Hilts]

20. Friend of mine's grandfather was on NAUTILUS 168! Dad was a diesel captain...

who told Rickover to stuff it.

They only ran around in their underwear in the engine and maneuvering rooms because they were so hot. That's just not an issue today, unless you're waaaaay down in an aircraft carrier engine room or near their screws.

[verges]

28. They do. And hotracking is still a common practice.

At least it was in '96 when I got out.

[Captain Hilts]

32. Yes. It still happens. Even on missile boats folks put mattresses between the tubes.

[Lasher]

35. A couple of friends of mine say the junior enlisted men hot rack in the torpedo room.

Hmm, that looks like a double meaning there but none intended. Anway, these 2 guys served aboard nuclear boats probably into the early nineties. They are both against the idea of having female submariners aboard. One said they already have problems aboard surface ships on account of this.

I emailed the linked story to them this morning and this was their reaction.

[Captain Hilts]

36. Their argument would have more validity if submariners were like skimmers, but they're not.

And the younger folks are much more socialized to the idea of women on ships.

Will there be some problems? Oh yeah. But there always have been. The sub force had to deal with alcohol problems, drug problems, cheating scandals, etc. Women on boats will generate some issues, but they can deal with these as they have dealt with the others.

There are just not enough willing and capable men signing up for sub service. It's not a social experiment, it's dealing with the talent pool. The USN is short 400+ nook-trained officers and 900+ enlisted. It's not everyone's cup of tea and a lot just can't cut it or don't want to make the commitment.

[Lasher]

39. Yes, I was already aware of the concerns about a personnel shortage.

And I have noted that these concerns have been communicated in this thread. As I believe I've said, I think we're probably ready to try co-ed subs. But I wanted to include their input in a pretty good discussion here. Their anxiety is not mild. One said, "This is asking for trouble and the kind of trouble you don’t need on board a submerged nuclear vessel. They should run a test case of this on a sub tied to a pier and simulate it being underway for 6 weeks."

[Captain Hilts]

42. Yeah, I get that. They are taking it incrementally for the reasons your friend outlined.

A friend of mine who is, frankly, a sexist jerk, has come back from tours in Afghanistan and Iraq as a corpsman a real convert to working with women under adverse circumstances. He says it's just not an issue for him or anyone else. Yes, he was surprised.

Evidently, they're going to start with officers and work their way from there.

They're just going to have to make it work.

We could be surprised in many ways by this experiment.

[Lasher]

44. An important point just occurred to me.

The article linked in the OP says that Australia, Canada, Norway, Spain and Sweden already have women serving aboard their subs. But none of these nations have nuclear subs. As such, tours are probably 1 to 2 months long compared to 6 months for one of our boats. And with nuclear armament the stakes are higher.

My point is, we can't just assume we'll be OK just because these other countries already have co-ed subs.

[Captain Hilts]

45. I agree.

And the whole idea of diesels that cruise specific areas - Caribbean, Med, etc. is a whole other issue as well!

[GreenPartyVoter]

40. Not all navies have rules against fraternization, do they?

[Captain Hilts]

43. It's not a good idea within a unit to permit fraternization. nt

[Captain Hilts]

5. There are not enough men who are willing and capable. The sub force has lost

part of its talent pool to eye surgery. It used to be smart guys with vision inadequate for aviation would go into subs, now, they have eye surgery.

The USNA is, for the first time, assigning grads to subs for whom subs is not their first choice.

It's a decision based on the supply of people for subs.

[ampad]

10. You are right about that

My husband says that the quality of people they are getting nowadays is not doing the crew justice. I think it is a reasonable decision from the Navy. Of course there is always going to be push back. Just as there was when they allowed women on war ships. I think they are doing a test run with an all woman sub crew. If I heard correctly that crew has been out to sea already.

[Blue_Tires]

17. i would probably go insane on a sub within a week

the thought of being that deep underwater makes me cringe personally...

[Captain Hilts]

21. I'm claustrophobic, but it didn't bother me on my ride. I get how they work, unlike airliners ! nt

[FarCenter]

26. Why does it take good eyesight to fly

a Predator or other UAV from a terminal in some office building?

[eilen]

8. Those subs are very tight

as far as space goes. I have been on both types-- diesel and nuke (to visit). I can't imagine coed subs. The joke used to be that a sub went underway with 20 men and came back with 10 couples... or something to that effect. I know the people I met that were assigned on the subs often had to be treated after WestPacs for STDs acquired in ports of call such as the Philippines (as so with other ships (not subs) -- not limited to submariners).
And to consider the stank was high after such a long tour.-- I was told it was significant, they had to wash everything on return.

Granted this was over 20 years ago.

Anyway, I would not want to be a female assigned to this duty.

[Captain Hilts]

18. There is FAR more esprit de corps in a sub than on a surface vessle. Just wanting to be on one

makes the population very self-selecting. Submariners don't care, for example, about crewmates being gay. They really don't. If you can do your job, you can do your job. It's that simple.

The missile subs are pretty roomy, actually.

I've been on diesels, an older missile sub, a PERMIT class and the SEAWOLF. I've not been on an LA class, oddly enough.

[ampad]

24. Thank you for pointing that out

And not to sound elitist but the sub community and the surface community are two different animals. As you said they really do not care if their ship mates are gay. My husband says that every sub he has ever served on there was at least one gay guy. They have too much to worry about than to worry about sexual orientation. Also because the sub community is so small and selective, they do not have the "bigoted luxury" of turning away someone because of their sexual orientation.

The sub community is pretty small and pretty tight. If there is any infidelity, pregnancies, then those people do so at their own risk. It is not like a surface ship where you can diddly around with someone and no one will ever know and or care. If you embarrass the cobb with that type of behavior you will get the hammer dropped on you. Not to mention everyone will know.

[Captain Hilts]

30. The COB will kick your ass. nt

[Dappleganger]

34. SEAWOLF

Dh's first job out of college was working on it's bow plane design.

[Captain Hilts]

37. Cool! I sat in the driver's seat. Very cool. nt

[eilen]

54. Honestly, I don't (and didn't) have any issues about crewmates being gay

on the ship or anywhere else. I am just repeating the scuttlebutt that was tossed around back in the day. I had friends who served on subs and we sometimes would board to hang out, talk and play cards or board games on the mess deck. The on base club was not a place a girl could hang out with her buddies at any time of day without a hassle.

Duty on the sub was very sought after and probably still is. However I am a little claustrophobic and would not want to be stuck on there for long periods of time.

[Ganja Ninja]

9. Modern subs aren't all that cramped.

I do think they might have to designate a separate head and a section for bunking.

[Captain Hilts]

22. SEAWOLF was every bit as cramped as a diesel sub. The missile subs are roomier. Equipment takes

up so much room now.

I'm due to get a tour of a VIRGINIA class soon, so I don't know how they compare.

[Lasher]

38. Have you ever been through a U-boat?

I guess it was in the '80s that I went through the U-505 at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. Boy was that ever a Spartan existence! I don't think they still let you actually get in the boat now since they seem more concerned about preservation. From their website it looks like they've built a mockup as a substitute:

Aboard a re-created sub environment, climb through the hatch and experience the sights, sounds and feel that was reality for the U-505's 59 sailors during wartime.

http://www.msichicago.org/whats-here/exhibits/u-505/the-exhibit/interactives/life-on-board/

Later I went through USS Becuna (SS-319) at the Independence Seaport Museum in Philadelphia. She seemed like a floating palace compared to U-505.

OK I know you were comparing US navy boats. I just felt like rambling a bit since we obviously have a common interest.

Edit: Accounted for extra blank lines that occur when you end the unordered list HTML tag.

[Captain Hilts]

46. I was horrified by how small U505 is. A 3rd shorter than ours of that day and it was clearly

not made for the cross-ocean mission.

BECUNA certainly is a floating palace in comparison. A third longer.

I'll tell you what. I toured an OBERON class in Toronto and was also shocked by how much smaller and cramped it was compared to our WWII-era diesels. But the OBERONs were certainly built right, unlike the U-Boats.

How man WTDs in U505? I can't remember, but I remember it was not enough for me. I also was surprised by all the wood. Something our boats never had. I've actually been musing about seeing 505 again now that I'm more knowledgeable.

[Lasher]

48. I don't remember how many WTDs she had.

But I do remember the tiny racks.

Thought I was gonna one-up you with my firsthand experience with U-505. Shoulda known better.

My dad was aboard a U-boat once, when one surrendered at the end of WWII he was part of the boarding crew. We still have a few things that he took off that boat.

[Captain Hilts]

49. Cool!!!

[GodlessBiker]

11. There's a joke somewhere in there about a man in the boat, but I'll restrain myself.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

14. What's long and hard and full of seamen?

Somebody had to go there.

[scheming daemons]

12. Then they better start putting lots of OB/GYN's on them too... because pregnancies will be epidemic

It's just the truth.


3 months underwater at a time... close quarters.... there will be LOTS of infidelity. Biological human fact.

[Captain Hilts]

23. If this were a 'normal' workplace under the water that might be case. nt

[ampad]

25. It probably would happen

Just as it happens on surface ships and war zones. As you said it is human nature. However, those who choose to give in to that type of behavior do so at the risk of their own careers. It is not like they can hide their behavior. Not like they could in a normal workplace or a surface ship.

[verges]

29. Subs don't even carry a real doctor.

They only get a senior corpsman.

[MUAD_DIB]

13. That's a bad idea.

Women and Seamen don't mix.


:evilgrin:

[ampad]

16. LOL

I shall slap your hands for that one. Women and seamen do mix. They mix and make a baby. Or do you still believe in the stork? LOL, thanks for a good morning laugh!

[TankLV]

19. Queue the SEAMEN jokes in 3...2...1...

OK - so I'm late to the table...

[jmowreader]

41. What do you think, SSBNs first?

The Virginia-class SSNs MIGHT have enough room for sex-segregated heads, female-only sleeping quarters and so on, but on a Los Angeles-class? Yeah, they HAVE the room, but it's full of canned goods most of the mission.

[Ezlivin]

47. Damn. This will spoil all the fun.

Once we'd been out to sea for a several weeks, guys would get bored and we'd end up having a "dress up" night where a few of the sailors would dress like women and serve food in the crew's mess.

And I agree with a poster above: There will be an increased incidence of pregnancies. Regardless of how you may feel about submarines after a walk-through or a tour, serving aboard one is a different experience. Even aboard my boat there were nooks and crannies where "stuff" happened.

My wife is a Navy veteran and she was very, very glad not to have to serve aboard ship. You have to be a pretty tough woman to serve aboard a ship.

[Captain Hilts]

50. Those photographs are MOST undignified!!!

Cool you served on a boat named for a critter!

[Captain Hilts]

51. In this photograph, where's SKATE?

That looks like SAILFISH with the long conning tower on the far right.

Where's SKATE?

In the boneyard. The link doesn't work.

[Lasher]

52. Hit the link again, works fine from here.

I knew the nuke boats were bigger but I didn't know they were big enough where you could skate on board.

[Captain Hilts]

53. I could see it, but there is a 'forbidden' warning when I tried to post it.

Yes, those nukes are much bigger.

SKATE and NAUTILUS are the two best-looking subs ever. Love the way they look.

But I still think that's SAILFISH on the far end by the large ship, which was MIDWAY at some point.

[Orsino]

55. One day, we're going to realize that there's no such thing as cooties...

...and finally get down to serious work alongside our fellow citizens.