Haiti, Lifeboat Ethics, and priortization of planes landing.

[WeDidIt]

The priorities for planes being allowed to land in Haiti from the beginning of the US Air Force taking control of the airport was as follows:

1) Water

2) Food

3) Medical Supplies

4+) Everything else

People bitched and moaned on this site over some planes with Doctors without Borders being turned away.

I'm here to tell you now, people died because of that decision.

I'm also here to tell you that in the long run, more people will live because they stuck to the above priority.

Water was the key. Clean fresh water being moved into the island immediately did more to save lives than ten times as many planes from Doctors without Borders would have.

Clean water keeps disease from spreading in the aftermath. Clean nutritious food does more to stop infections spreading, too.

Yes, people died because of this priority, but ultimately, fewer people died than would have.

It's tragic.

It's terrible.

But lifeboat ethics demands prioritizing resources in a way to insure the most people survive.

[Statistical]

1. Exactly. Triage is never fun.

It is a job I could never do. Knowing your decision will save some people and doom others to certain death.

Allowing water & food ahead of medical supplies guarantees some people will live it also is signing the death warrant on that kid who was crushed by concrete and needs an operation.

When I was in the Army the one MOS I never had the slightest interest in was a combat medic.
These days I will stick with databases. Nobody ever died because of a bug I didn't catch in a database.

[LakeSamish706]

2. Makes perfect sense to me, as hard as it seems... But water is first and formost. n/t

[Fumesucker]

3. A plane full of doctors is not going to take as long to unload as a plane full of water..

Even allowing for medical supplies and equipment with the doctors..

I see your point and agree with it to a degree but turnaround time on the planes also makes a difference since parking is apparently strictly limited.

If *no* other planes were allowed to land other than those with water I think your point would be stronger but I don't believe that is the case.

Not trying to be argumentative just for the sake of argument but nothing in this world is perfect and that goes double for anything in which humans are involved.

[WeDidIt]

6. There were already doctors and rescue workers on the ground

when those planes were turned away.

I stand behind those decisions.

[Fumesucker]

8. Not enough doctors and not enough workers..

Just like not enough water and not enough food.

[WeDidIt]

9. So water and food took precedence

Lifeboat ethics.

You must keep the strong going because the strong are needed to save the weak.

[Fumesucker]

10. But strength is not the only thing needed..

Also need knowledge and skill..

Like doctors for instance.

[WeDidIt]

11. And the planes were allowed to land in time

Because strong Haitians were able to help workers to open the port back up and help expand the airport capacity.

Now the capacity to move in supplies and workers has dramatically improved.

Lifeboat ethics suck because people WILL DIE. It's a brutal reality in situations like this.

But it's still the reality.

[Fumesucker]

13. Not in time for everyone..

And I think you know that.

I must say that I'm glad I didn't have to make those decisions.

[WeDidIt]

16. That is the reality of lifeboat ethics

People will die.

It's a fact in these situations.

Limited resources dictate those hard decisions.

[Fumesucker]

18. But we all know that it wasn't *only* water that was allowed to land..

The calculations were more complex than you state, it wasn't just water only over food or medicine..

[TxRider]

12. And if that plane didn't have enough fuel to fly back out?

And there's none at the airport..

Maybe they should be bumped by a fuel tanker, and fueling equipment so empty planes can be refueled after landing so the whole airport doesn't fill up with stranded planes.

Hard to second guess people doing the best job they can, without knowing the facts.


What we do know, is that the military is stuffing planes in and out of there at an amazing rate, and regardless of who lands and who doesn't, it's still just a drop in the bucket as you simply cannot stuff enough into one runway to relieve a large scale disaster.

Fortunately one port is now 30% capacity, another operating in daylight hours already, and the trickle of supplies flown in has turned into a river of supplies brought by ship.

I say well done U.S. and Canadian Navies.

[Fumesucker]

14. To the Dominican Republic?

The plane would not have necessarily have to have flown that far on the way out.

As I said, if only water were allowed to land I would have agreed with the OP, but that was not the case.

The OP was overly simplistic, which was what I was objecting to.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. Not necessairy true

Per other posts here, the MSF aircraft are side loaders. They take the longest time to unload. A C-17 with 5X or more time the supplies can unload much more quickly.

[Fumesucker]

20. Only end loaders were allowed to land?

I really have no idea but I'd be surprised if that were true..

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. Your prior post said that docs w/gear could unload faster than water

I was pointing out that depended on the aircraft more than the cargo.

The military cargo planes are designed for quick load/unload, by drag chute if need be. In a situation like Haiti, more of them get in and out faster than any commercial aircraft could.

What has not been clear is if the US military flights have been loaded with anything other than US military based supplies. It would have been the smart thing to do, but it would also have required coordination in the US. Another question is if other nations used military transports or if any of the NGOs leased any of the civilian owned military style transport aircraft.

[Fumesucker]

23. But you have no proof that only end loaders were allowed to land..

On the same plane water is going to take longer to unload than medical supplies.

And if you're parked in the soft soil you might not get water off an end loader any faster than you can get medical supplies off a side loader, water is damn heavy volume for volume and unless you can roll the pallets off onto a hard surface or straight onto a vehicle you're going to have to shift it all by hand anyway.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. Far from it...there were commercial aircraft as well, and it was noted that they were much more time

consuming to unload.

Its a trade for for commercial aircraft. The low threshold capability comes at a cost in several areas. If the plan is normally operate from commercial airports, sticking with the industry standard cargo pods etc makes economic sense. Its not a choice militaries can make.

If you want to view an extreme cargo carrying aircraft, look up the Guppy series.

[Junkdrawer]

4. Food before medical supplies? In a situation of limited lift capacity?

I don't think so....

[Robb]

5. Why not? nt

[WeDidIt]

7. I do think so

You need help from the indigenous people in order to continue the resuce work. You simply will never be able to move enough people in for all the rescue work to be done.

Unfed people cannot work.

[Junkdrawer]

15. Somebody fucked up....

Doctors Without Borders Plane with Lifesaving Medical Supplies Diverted Again from Landing in Haiti
Patients in Dire Need of Emergency Care Dying from Delays in Arrival of Medical Supplies

Port-au-Prince, January 19, 2010 – A Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) cargo plane carrying 12 tons of medical equipment, including drugs, surgical supplies and two dialysis machines, was turned away three times from Port-au-Prince airport since Sunday night despite repeated assurances of its ability to land there. This 12-ton cargo was part of the contents of an earlier plane carrying a total of 40 tons of supplies that was blocked from landing on Sunday morning. Since January 14, MSF has had five planes diverted from the original destination of Port-au-Prince to the Dominican Republic. These planes carried a total of 85 tons of medical and relief supplies.

“We have had five patients in Martissant health center die for lack of the medical supplies that this plane was carrying,” said Loris de Filippi, emergency coordinator for the MSF’s Choscal Hospital in Cite Soleil. “I have never seen anything like this. Any time I leave the operating theater I see lots of people desperately asking to be taken for surgery. Today, there are 12 people who need lifesaving amputations at Choscal Hospital. We were forced to buy a saw in the market to continue amputations. We are running against time here.”

More than 500 patients in need of surgery have been transferred from MSF health center in the Martissant neighborhood to Choscal Hospital with more than 230 operated on since Thursday. MSF teams have been working since the first hours after the earthquake and these cargo shipments are vital to continue their ability to provide essential medical care to victims of the disaster. In five different locations in the city, MSF has given primary care to an estimated 3,000 people in the capital and performed more than 400 surgeries.

...

http://doctorswithoutborders.org/press/release.cfm?id=4176&cat=press-release&ref=news-index

Later reports show improvement. That's good. The task ahead is huge and there's no time now to examine who fucked up and why.

But don't sit there and tell me that was a rational decision. I'm not buying.

[WeDidIt]

17. It was the RIGHT decision

Yes, people died because of it.

Long term, more people survived.

It sucks, but it's reality.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. Most likely it was MSF...

[Fumesucker]

24. Depends on who gave the "repated assurances" that they could land..

Port-au-Prince, January 19, 2010 – A Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) cargo plane carrying 12 tons of medical equipment, including drugs, surgical supplies and two dialysis machines, was turned away three times from Port-au-Prince airport since Sunday night despite repeated assurances of its ability to land there.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. Assuming that they had them to begin with

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7550826

NB is too cynical for some here, but anyone with experience will tend to support the position taken

[northzax]

25. Without knowing what was on the planes that did land

We can't say. And posting a press release from an involved organization isn't neccesarily even handed. Maybe the plane that did land was carrying gear that saved ten people crushed under a building? Maybe it was carrying gear that restored running water to the main hospital? Maybe it had the air traffic control system to allow ten additional planes to land the next day? Maybe it had a cargo of spies and rifles? Maybe it was baby formula?

But in this case, I'll say the same thing to msf as everyone else: this is not a battle to be fought in public. It is not a battle for egos.

[lostnfound]

28. Is that true? I hadn't read that. And where do soldiers / security fall on your list?

Before or after water?

[KharmaTrain]

29. I Wish We Could Save 'Em All...

But the scope of this disaster is so vast and the infrastructure so poor that every plane could have landed and it still wouldn't immediately help those who are suffering. While the survivors need food and water, the overwhelming number of injured have needs that would overwhelm an well set up American city. Imagine 300,000 casulaties...all trying to get into your local hospitals...and not to mention all the doctors needed to truly care for that amount of people.

Imagine the ramifications of this tragedy had it occured 50 or 100 years ago...without all the heavy transports and advancements in communications and medicine...the toll would have been far greater.

Inversely, this country's destitution may be a positive as we're seeing how resilliant the Haitian people are in light of all the bad that's happened...yet they're finding ways to hang in there.

So many are quick to condemn...and many for their own agendas unreleated to the tragedy at hand. Shameful.