Security “Red Zones” in Haiti Preventing Large Aid Groups from Effectively Distributing Aid

[Political Heretic]

Security “Red Zones” in Haiti Preventing Large Aid Groups from Effectively Distributing Aid

As thousands of well-equipped US soldiers pour into Haiti, there is an increasing concern about the militarization of the country, supporting the soldiers and not the people. Or, as one doctor put it, “people need gauze, not guns.” We take a look at aid distribution in Haiti and the effect on Haitians fighting to survive in the aftermath of the earthquake.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/22/security_red_zones_in_haiti_preventing

The militarization of Haiti is disgusting and no one can responsibly argue that it is necessary. But it sure does pave the way for some good ol' Disaster Capitalism in the days to come...

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Naomi Klein actually admited that hte IMF and WB pardoning debt

has short circuited this already.

And given the ICRC had to make a hasty retreat the other day....

from a distribution point.

[Political Heretic]

7. We'll see. I hope so. But you'll understand if I want to wait more than two weeks to see.

Given my familiarity with history.

I'm referring to the disaster capitalism part - the rest of the Democracy Now report stands on its own.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Well it does not.

One of the red zones is the Soleil district. Well guess where the ICRC has been working for days?

Here you go, their OpReport for today

Haiti earthquake: ICRC aids 3,000 survivors living in desperate conditions
While the more affluent are leaving Port-au-Prince for the countryside, hundreds of thousands are camping out in squares, sports fields and other open areas transformed into makeshift camps. Yesterday, some 3,000 camp-dwellers in Primatur received much needed aid.

Distributing aid between the aftershocks

The residents of Port-au-Prince endured several more aftershocks on Thursday, and people are currently living under very difficult conditions in more than 250 open areas. These areas include Primatur, where some 3,000 people are living in makeshift shelters. On Thursday evening, an ICRC team supported by thirteen volunteers from the Haitian Red Cross and a number of people living in the camp distributed blankets, soap and jerrycans for storing drinking water. They also handed out plastic sheeting with which families could set up temporary shelters and regain some privacy in a crowded camp.

"Things are tough for the people here. We will do our utmost to deliver additional aid in the coming days," said ICRC nutritionist Ana Gerlin Hernández.

The ICRC is working closely with the Haitian National Red Cross Society, and the international Red Cross and Red Crescent relief effort is being coordinated and led by the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies. For more details on the overall Red Cross Red Crescent response to the earthquake, please visit the Federation website at www.ifrc.org.


Medical supplies for field hospitals

The ICRC provided additional medical supplies on Thursday to a 70-bed field hospital from the Norwegian and Canadian Red Cross and the Israeli National Society, the Magen David Adom. Doctors there have been treating over 80 seriously-injured people a day and had run out of supplies. The ICRC also delivered much-needed supplies to a clinic in the Carrefour neighbourhood run by Doctors without Borders (Netherlands).

The Haitian Red Cross, supported by the ICRC, opened a new first-aid post in the Carrefour sports complex, where thousands of people have gathered. Red Cross volunteers treated 23 casualties in the first few hours. Meanwhile, doctors from the Finnish Red Cross started work at another new first-aid post in Carrefour Feuille.

For the second time in a week, the ICRC delivered first-aid supplies to the Haitian Red Cross first-aid post in Cité Soleil, a shantytown with a population of around 200,000 where very few other humanitarian organizations have been active so far.

In the Bel Air area of Port-au-Prince, an ICRC health team evaluated the needs of a hospice for the elderly, which had suffered heavy earthquake damage. People there need first aid, and there are neither latrines nor water. Owing to the dire conditions at the hospice, the ICRC intends to support the facility for the next few days.

ICRC forensic specialists provided body bags to the morgue of the Hôpital Universitaire de l'État d'Haïti (HUEH), one of Port-au-Prince’s two referral hospitals.


Restoring family links

Teams helping people to re-establish contact with their relatives are operating in four camps and on Thursday facilitated almost 300 phone calls between residents in Port-au-Prince and relatives living abroad. Over the past three days, the service has allowed almost 900 people to make such calls. The joint ICRC/Haitian Red Cross teams also registered the names of 193 people eager to let their loved ones know that they were alive and well on the ICRC family links website (www.icrc.org/familylinks).


As of Friday, the family links site for Haiti contained over 24,100 names. The site has been revamped since the start of the emergency and is now accessible in four languages including Creole. Over 1,900 of the names are people reporting that they are alive and safe, and by Friday the ICRC had been able to remove 564 names because the people concerned had been traced.


For further information, please contact:

Simon Schorno, ICRC Port-au-Prince, mobile: [phone] or [phone],
satellite tel: [phone]

Marçal Izard, ICRC Geneva, tel: [phone] or [phone]


Follow the ICRC on Twitter for regular updates on relief efforts in Haiti:
http://www.twitter.com/icrcnews

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/haiti-earthquake-update-220110

As to Disaster Capitalism... I have the sneaky that they will try... but the people that they have consulted on this are Keynseian, not Chicago Boys.

Oh and if she came to a few of my scenes she'd have screamed as well...

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

49. Interesting, thanks for posting this.

[Leopolds Ghost]

231. Red zones? What have we been worried about all along? Why are no other groups in Cite Soleil?

Sounds like...

...exactly what we've been worried will happen.


And of course we de-prioritized first responder flights, only 6 teams of American search crews got in to rescue under 100 Haitians, but had plenty of troops positioned to evacuate 3,000 Americans. I side with Sanjay Gupta on this...

[nadinbrzezinski]

239. That is because technical confined space rescue is not

easy... it is TECHNICAL for a reason

And did you miss the other 49 teams that CAME FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD?

If this was just SIX teams, given it takes an average of four hours for a technical rescue, you do the math over the number of rescues... and some take longer by the way...

You truly believe it is ONLY the US doing this?

Of course you do. that post was far more than revealing.

but only six teams would not have been able to pull out 127 people from the rubble.

[Goldstein1984]

254. Confined space entry and rescue is one of my areas of expertise

Half of all fatalities in confined spaces are rescuers.

I've been impressed by film footage of confined space rescues in Haiti. I see a lack of "cowboys" and an abundance of well-trained, well-equipped emergency personnel.

[TxRider]

247. 6 teams of 70 people each

And that was only at that time, as in old news.

Not to mention teams from many other countries.

[EFerrari]

2. Nobody wants to know this. After all we have been through

it's not surprising.

But kudos to Amy, who just lost her mother a few weeks ago, for going there and doing that.

:kick:

[tabatha]

3. That is an overblown and invalid report.

The red zones existed before the earthquake, and were in place thanks to the UN.
The red zones probably are not valid anymore, because people are both fleeing out of Haiti and are being transported out of Haiti by the Haitian government - to be set up in tent cities where they can get food, water, shelter, etc.

The military is using large C16 airplanes to avoid the logjam at the airport and dropping food and supplies to people that otherwise would be without.

The USS Comfort is doing stellar work, and is at full capacity for the very first time.
Se Rachel Maddow's show tonight.

There is NO militarization of Haiti - there is only the military helping where no-one else could help.

If they were not providing enormous assistance, you would be bitching how disgusting it was that they were not helping.

The port is now open thanks to the military and supplies are moving faster.

Yeah, damn the military and their fine work.

[EFerrari]

4. Amy Goodman spent a week in Haiti. You?

[tabatha]

5. I watched that video and as far as I could tell there

was nothing to support her claims.

[EFerrari]

9. What part of the video didn't back up her claims?

She and her producer when to Leobane, which has been redlined and where people are still digging out their dead with their hands and where there are no Marines, no UN, no food, water or medical supplies.

Her report is backed up by other independent reports, including this evening on CNN.

And, btw, there is a week's worth of filming posted to her website. It's all there.

[tabatha]

13. There were many places that did not receive aid.

You can make up all sorts of fancy reason why - but there were only claims of red zones.

[EFerrari]

17. No, there are no "claims" of red zones. The UN has said

it will not go anywhere that it can't "secure". Which is complete cr@p because the Haitian people have been amazing and strong and largely sharing what they have with each other.

That's not a claim. That's a fact. Call them and ask. :)

[Political Heretic]

19. Yep. It's a fact. Their definition of what's "secure" needs adjusting.

[EFerrari]

26. The "insecurity" seems to be very much a manufactured meme

that someone or something will capitalize on. Bet me.

[tabatha]

27. YES !!!

It is the UN as you stated.

Not the US military.

I am looking at the video again.

The security risk areas were there before the earthquake, and designated by the UN - not the US miltary.

[EFerrari]

32. The problem with that is that our State Department

has wrestled control away from the Brazil-led UN mission.

So now, the UN and the US military are speaking off the same page.

I hope you know I'm not dissing our service people. They are not making these decisions. They are doing the job they have been given. But I am strongly objecting to this policy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Again show me this in the MINUSTAH site

http://www.un.org/en/peacekeeping/missions/minustah/

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

40. And again, I'll ask you to cite EVIDENCE that the U.S. has pushed Brazil aside.

[Political Heretic]

149. I know you are responding to someone else, but just to be clear I don't care who designates them.

My OP wasn't about blame the US or blame the UN or whatever.

It was about three things:

Many many people in some of the worst hit areas in Haiti, including the very epicenter of the earthquake, are not receiving aid, and one of the reasons they are not receiving aid, according to officials, is that its not "secure."

That's just tragic. This was an informational OP, not a "I know who to blame!" OP.

Second, I don't think the US should be sending a bunch of soldiers, military weaponry and military machinery into Haiti. I'm aware that the ratio of soldiers to support personnel completely disproportionately favors support personale. But that doesn't matter to me. I think we're sending too many soldiers, and I fear it will escalate rather than deescalate tensions and complicate relief efforts.

Those are all just personal fears and personal opinions. I'm not out to make a larger point than that.

Third, I'm very, very nervous about what powerful interests (corporate, governmental, transnational) will plan to do with Haiti. I fear a disaster capitalism attempt just like we had with Katrina. It makes me even more wary of US troops and military equipment on the ground. Wary - not certain.

I'll even go as far as to grant you, my fears about this third point may be oversensitive and turn out to be unfounded. Early in the thread it was pointed out that so far, IMF and World Bank are behaving well. But I will worry about what's going to happen in Haiti for at least another year before I start relaxing.

(Please forgive grammar, I'm fighting medication.... )

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

204. I mean, that's fine

There are legitimate reasons to be concerned when people in need are not getting the aid that was rushed to the country. I think the reason a lot of folks (myself included) assumed you were playing the "the U.S. is always wrong!" game is because, frankly, some of the other people in this thread have done so throughout numerous threads in the past, including other large threads on Haiti. One, in particular, continues to insist that the United States is in charge of coordinating aid and is therefore the problem, without providing evidence, of course, because the info. being put out by the U.N. still clearly states that they're the ones in charge of coordinating. Sorry you got lumped in with that.

Secondly, considering how the majority aren't combat troops, and that the military equipment you're upset about is being used directly to aid the relief efforts (whether it be planes, ships, helicopters, trucks, or bulldozers) I still don't see that as a very valid criticism. At the end of the day, the fact that the police essentially disintegrated in Haiti tells me some structure and security were needed, especially if we're sending in massive amounts of unarmed aid workers. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the U.S. is in a lose-lose. If they didn't send in security forces and something happened to an aid worker thus prompting aid organizations to shut down their work we'd be getting slammed just as much, if not more so.

Third, I share this fear of yours, though to me, that doesn't change the fact that the U.S. military was the best equipped to get things moving quickly in Haiti.

[nadinbrzezinski]

236. I will take the time to answer these concerns for you

My OP wasn't about blame the US or blame the UN or whatever.

It was about three things:

Many many people in some of the worst hit areas in Haiti, including the very epicenter of the earthquake, are not receiving aid, and one of the reasons they are not receiving aid, according to officials, is that its not "secure."

----

These sections are GETTING HELP, not as fast or efficient as we'd like but they are. I posted about Jacmel, for example, since that is the CANADIAN sector, which is UNDER MINUSTAH. They are part of MINUSTAH by the way. Things like this should tell you that perhaps somebody did not get it right.

Same goes for Cite Soleils, WHICH WAS a red zone, and is being serviced by the ICRC, and the ARC incidentally.

I went into the fact that ALL reporters are doing front of the nose reporting. If they did not see it, with their own eyes, it did not happen. Not just Amy Goodman, and I actually get it, having been to a few of these shindiqs...

----

Second, I don't think the US should be sending a bunch of soldiers, military weaponry and military machinery into Haiti. I'm aware that the ratio of soldiers to support personnel completely disproportionately favors support personale. But that doesn't matter to me. I think we're sending too many soldiers, and I fear it will escalate rather than deescalate tensions and complicate relief efforts.

-----

Given the actual rifle slingers are securing LZs for help... well then and that many of those other miltiary personnel brought the HEAVY equipment to clear the roads and NOT just the US... the actual ration of combat to non combat, when taking into account all eleemnts on the ground is lower. I could keep posting the info, but it does not matter.

Those are all just personal fears and personal opinions. I'm not out to make a larger point than that.

Third, I'm very, very nervous about what powerful interests (corporate, governmental, transnational) will plan to do with Haiti. I fear a disaster capitalism attempt just like we had with Katrina. It makes me even more wary of US troops and military equipment on the ground. Wary - not certain.

I'll even go as far as to grant you, my fears about this third point may be oversensitive and turn out to be unfounded. Early in the thread it was pointed out that so far, IMF and World Bank are behaving well. But I will worry about what's going to happen in Haiti for at least another year before I start relaxing.

----

Actually they are not, part of RECOVERY phase. Given the UN is now hiring the locals to do some of the recovery work, that is a good sign

On the down side, we have some rumblings on private building companies. This leads to back door disaster capitalism and a long letter tomorrow to my reps about the fact that they should let the UN and the ICRC handle this... That is separate as well, to a point and where your eyes should be on target. Read any Spanish though? A lot of this crap will not be on your US Paper...

(Please forgive grammar, I'm fighting medication.... )

Take care..

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

29. This isn't anything new with the U.N.

It has a tendency to cower with its tail between its legs in situations where it feels its workers might be in danger. Sometimes it is perhaps called for, other times its utterly shameful. However, how do we rectify that? Simply by-pass the U.N.? You're already all over these boards hollering about imperialism.

[Political Heretic]

38. I think we know this. However, it highlights a critical, critcal problem.

Part of the excellent reporting I watched tonight, including Amy Goodman traveling into one of these "non secured" zones that people refuse to deliver aid too.

It was one of the worst hit provinces, with 90% of buildings destroyed, and NO ONE had been there to help them. No One. Was there trouble with security? Nope. Nothing but lots of dead rotting people and children bawling in dispair. Huge security threat... :(

This is a big, big problem that needs both REPORTED (why people are trashing Goodman for reporting it I'll never know) and also addressed.

[EFerrari]

43. She went there because it was the epicenter of the quake. n/t

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

44. I don't think anyone is trashing Amy Goodman for covering it

However, I do ask that this information be relayed accurately, which seems to be a problem with those who are eager to throw blame at the feet of the United States for each and every shortcoming in this relief effort.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Cite Soleil... you DO KNow the ICRC is working there?

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/haiti-earthquake-update-220110

[readmoreoften]

10. "As far as YOU could tell." Well, hey! YOU are the expert!

:crazy:

[tabatha]

33. I am looking at the video again.

I saw a UN truck.

I heard that the security concerns were there before the earthquake, and were largely as a result of the UN.
The UN had problems interacting with the people.
She even admits that the UN has been hampered because they lost a lot of people in the earthquake.

It is not the US military.

Please tell me what I missed.

[sabrina 1]

110. You are right about the UN in Haiti having problems

before the earthquake. They have been accused of killing Haitians and it was a huge, though largely unreported problem. I had just seen video of Haitians demanding justice for family members killed by the UN. So, if they were worried about security, it was more likely because of their own actions.

You are however, wrong about the U.S. Gates claimed that the country needed to be 'secured' before distributing aid. The UN has had the backing of the U.S. in Haiti, they were sent in after the coup that removed Aristedes and the country devolved into violent political unrest.

I have no doubt that the UN and the U.S. are working together and are the only groups who fear the Haitian people. Everyone else has refuted their claims that security is an issue.

And like it or not, the U.S. has never been a friend to Haiti, but rather a friend to the special interests that profit from Haiti and I am sure that it will be revealed that part of the mission of the U.S. military is to secure the interests of the wealthy there. In fact, the media has reported on UN troops working to remove money from private banks there.

None of this has anything to do with the troops themselves, who are probably frustrated that they cannot do more for the people. Several of them have stated that they prefer humanitarian missions to war as they prefer to be helping people which they can do very effectively if they are allowed to do so.

[Political Heretic]

42. As oppossed to you.

:eyes:

[readmoreoften]

45. Did I say I know? I'm just saying I trust Amy Goodman more than the opinion of some poster on DU.

I'm saying I support your OP!!!!

[Political Heretic]

54. I know, I'm sorry.

This whole thread is just unbelievable and it makes me so angry.

Sorry about that.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

56. Take a breath.

[readmoreoften]

68. No problem!

:hug:

[sabrina 1]

88. Even the MSM are supporting her claims

CNN's Anderson Cooper and Sanjay Gupta among others, have gone off the usual MSM script of 'we are the best country in the world' and to their credit, criticized the claims coming ONLY from the U.S. military, Gates himself actually, that the country needs to be 'secured' before it can be given humanitarian aid.

They have done an excellent job of debunking that myth stating plainly that there is no security risk to anyone bringing aid to Haitians, including the media. Over and over they have shown their disgust, in as polite a way as possible, with this erroneous claim to try to excuse the huge miliatry presence there.

They showed footage of marines screaming at Haitians for no reason at all, people who had organized themselves and were trying to help people who were in need.

It's clear that many people from many countries are very concerned about the huge U.S. military presence in Haiti. Before they got there, aid organizations were getting in and working hard to get to those in need. Since they took over the airport, there has been a huge delay in getting desperately needed supplies to those who need them.

If they were there primarily for humanitarian purposes and not for their own stated and manufactured reason, security, I'm sure we would long ago have the troops at the hospitals where every night the media has practically begged for help. Others have managed to get to those places.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

109. Sigh,

You seem to be confused on the basic facts of this story. The U.S. didn't set up the Red Zones, the United Nations did. So even if this story were entirely accurate, you should probably be placing your blame on the people in charge and not on the United States. Secondly, as Nadin has repeatedly pointed out in this thread, aid is being delivered in at least some of these Red Zones, so it seems rather unlikely that the U.N. is, in fact, denying aid groups the ability to go into these areas.

[sabrina 1]

126. I think the problem is that people do not know much about the

UN presence in Haiti. Anything they are doing they are doing with the approval of the U.S.

They were sent to Haiti AFTER the U.S. backed coup of Aristedes which cause political upheaval and violence which took the lives of over 5000 Haitians. The U.S. did not want to be a visible presence there, so it was decided to send in a UN peace-keeping force. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the UN troops there have been implicated in the arbitrary killing of Haitian citizens and just before this earthquake, demands for justice for those deaths were still falling on deaf ears.

The UN troops because of this history of violence against the Haitian people before the earthquake, are not exactly likely to be seen as 'humanitarians'. I'm sure they coordinated with the U.S. military since it was the U.S. who made their presence there necessary by removing Aristedes.

The UN troops have been seen by the media emptying out money from the banks eg. The interests of the wealthy are being taken care of it seems, while the poor are still waiting for life-saving provisions.

I doubt that the UN does anything there without the knowledge of the U.S. So whether it was the UN, used by the U.S. to control Haiti before the earthquake, or the U.S. who are responsible for the red zones, makes very little difference. This country's presence in Haiti will always be viewed as suspect and the UN troops there are seen by the rest of the world, as a U.S. proxy. I'm sure Amy Goodman is fully aware of all of this, as she has covered Haiti for several years.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

136. It does make a difference though, doesn't it?

To me, it very clearly makes a difference if we're obeying the wishes of the United Nations or completely bucking it whenever we feel we know what is best.

Secondly, what interest would the United States have ever possibly had in seeing the Red Zones drawn up by the U.N. peacekeepers in Haiti? To me, that seems just a wee bit far fetched.

Third, it's interesting to me that you feel we'd be to blame no matter which is the case. It honestly seems like some people in these threads will sit there are harp on the United States no matter what it's doing. Had the military not been sent, and aid distribution areas not secured, they'd be throwing an absolute fit if an aid worker had been injured or killed. Since that's not the case, they've found something else to hammer on ("not fast enough!" "not EVERYONE has gotten aid yet!". Don't get me wrong, some of these criticisms are valid and are things we should be concerned about. But some of them aren't and are being made by posters I've had more than a few discussions with in the past - the "America can do no right" crowd.

[sabrina 1]

185. You want to believe that when people state facts it is because

they want the U.S. to be blamed for everything wrong there. Nothing could be further from the truth. I eg, posted an OP when the first U.S. plane landed and said nothing about the history of the U.S. there hoping against hope this time, that we were there only to help the people.

I am not interested in covering up facts for any reason. Anyone who cares about this country will never back away from speaking the truth. This government for nearly two hundred years has been a primary source in keeping the Haitian people from being an independent nation.

Even now, in the midst of this horrendous tragedy, as they have in the past, they are telling the Haitian people they are not welcome in the U.S.

When Haitians fled the brutal, U.S. backed dictatorships there, they were treated differently in this country to policital refugees from other country. They were detained like criminals in places like Guantanamo Bay and some were sent back to their deaths in Haiti.

For decades people have tried to change these policies and free that country from oppression.

I had real hopes that this tragedy, so much bigger than all the others that have afflicted the country, would be seen as an opportunity to start supporting Haiti's democratic leaders rather than 'take them out' as has happened in the past.

I am still hopeful that now with the world there and no way to hide their activities, there will be enough pressure to, as has been suggested, let Haiti's friends in South American countries participate fully in the reconstruction of the country. Not give out contracts to Bush's private contractors, as happened in NOLA.

But I will not close my eyes to the history that was ongoing right up to before the earthquake. And yes the UN and the U.S. are seen as allies who fear the Haitian people by the rest of the world. In fact, the recent letter which is now in an OP on this site, signed by many people, mentioned that fact. And it is a fact whether you like it or not. I know I don't like it, so I can understand that. The UN is meant to be impartial. Look up its history in Haiti and you might begin to understand.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

205. No, frankly, I don't want to believe that, but I know from experience with some posters

that that's the unfortunate truth.

Secondly, I too fully support the truth of the matter, which is why I think it's important to remind people, as Nadin has consistently done, that aid IS in fact flowing into some of these Red Zone areas, therefore the story in the original post is inaccurate.

[sabrina 1]

207. Well, then we agree ~ as far as the red zones

as I said, and probably should have added, the UN in Haiti is seen as being in collusion with the U.S. Of course we don't know whether those decisions were made independently or not, and if food and other necessities are getting to the people, for now that is the most important thing.

However, it is not hard to understand, considering the history of the U.S. and the more recent hisotry of the UN, that people would be suspicious. I don't think that's a bad thing. Keeping an eye on anyone who may have bad intentions in that country is probably very necessary right now. And maybe the people of the U.S. as they learn more about their government in Haiti, can start to put pressure on them to start right now, changing their policies there.

If that were to happen, then this tragedy would have produced some real hope for Haitians. If it doesn't, then before long the news media will leave, and the vultures waiting in the wings, will be back to business as usual.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

209. There is some agreement here

While, until there's evidence to the contrary, I think it's fair to assume the decision on where to draw the Red Zones was made independently by the United Nations, that may be something we'll have to agree to disagree on. This is one that you clearly see one way and I see another.

Secondly though, I do agree with you that there's reason for people to be suspicious of the U.S.' long-term intentions in Haiti and I definitely think that reconstruction there is something we all ought to keep a very close eye on. With that said, however, that seems to have little bearing on what's taking place within the country right now. The focus these last few days has been short term: fix the airport, build construct new landing fields, fix the port, clear the roads, get aid into the country and get it to those that need it.

[sabrina 1]

221. I think the only disagreement regarding the red zones is

I really don't know whose idea they were, as I said, but I'm leaning towards the decision being co-ordinated with the U.S. That's just my opinion based on what I have learned about their presence there.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

222. Well, hey!

Glad we could reach some understanding here! :)

[Kaleva]

11. That doesn't mean her reporting is accurate.

[EFerrari]

24. It's not only accurate, it's on film and posted to her site

so you can fact check it.

She's an award winning indy and yesterday, Thom Hartmann thanked her for her brilliant reporting.

:)

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

46. Of course, we're still waiting on you to provide evidence that the U.S. has pushed Brazil aside

with regard to security. With is the crux of your condemnation of the United States. Any day now, please.

[TxRider]

160. Accurate? No, This is accurate

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7553406&mesg_id=7553406

[Political Heretic]

53. She's standing at the cite of a "red zone" talking to people directly

It doesn't get much more "accurate" than that.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

58. It's but one aspect of a rather large issue

As I said, within the limitations she has, Amy Goodman sometimes does some really good work. But Amy Goodman isn't going to sit down with a U.N. official to get confirmation that the Red Zones are still in place, why they're still in place, and what is being done about it. It's beyond her scope. Sorry you find that so incredibly disheartening, but it's the truth.

[Kaleva]

62. But what they say doesn't support her opening comments.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

20. Amy Goodman also has extremely limited access, even compared to many other reporters.

[Political Heretic]

25. You base this complete bullshit on what exactly?

Nothing.

Zip.

Nada.

Too bad I've watched here reporting, video of which you can easily view for yourself, and her access has been anything but "limited."

In fact, she's frequently reporting from provinces where NO ONE ELSE IS GOING.

What the fuck is up with the concerted attempt to trash basic journalism? It blows my mind. It's Democracy Now! Genius...

Trying to discredit Amy Goodman is like trying to say that Bill Moyer's is a closet neo-conservative or that Edward R. Murrow was Joe McCarthy's secret lover.

It's upslide down day on DU! :party: :crazy:

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

37. Off hanging out with her in Boston in '04

She hardly has the access of a major news figure which is why she covers stories in the way that she does. Sometimes that can be to her credit. She was right there with us when we were getting clubbed by riot cops at the DNC. Other times? Not so much. Her scope is limited and she's hardly a news source I'd trust to give us a decent overall picture of something on this magnitude.

[Political Heretic]

48. Ah. Brilliant. That's some amazingly credible basis for generalizing.

She's the only reporter reporting from the epicenter of the quake.

You and I see things quite differently. You think somehow that your getting accurate reporting from corporate media because they have "access?"

I think I'm getting accurate reporting on the people's issues (kind of like Zinn's a People's History of the United States telling history from a perspective never captured in the mainstream) that cuts to the heart of matters with precision and courage.

In this instance, her willingness and ability to report from unsecured zones gives her something that few (if any) corporate media wankers can give you.

I'm still sort of reeling at the fact that you're backing up your statement on reporting in haiti based on purely antidote evidence from a completely different context and situation from more than FIVE YEARS AGO.

Just fucking brilliant man. Well done. :crazy:

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

55. It's common sense, friend.

Yes, it is noble of her to report from one of the hardest hit areas. With that said, that doesn't change the fact that her low profile only gives her a limited amount of access in the stories she covers. Sometimes she does fine working within those limitations, other times not. Someone with a higher profile, for instance, might do a little follow up on these reports and seek some comment from the United Nations on this matter. After all, they're the ones who drew up the Red Zones and are also the ones enforcing those restrictions so you'd THINK you'd want to find out what they have to say on the matter. If you'll notice, she didn't do that, probably because few people know who she is. Frankly, I think even she would acknowledge the limits placed on her by her lower profile, but hey, if you need to pretend otherwise, who am I to intrude on your version of reality.

[No Elephants]

257. You're assessing her reporting in Haiti in 2010 on the basis of having "hung around" with her in

Boston in 2004?

:eyes:

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

258. No, I'm assessing her reporting in Haiti in 2010 off of seeing first hand the limitations

she faces as a fairly unknown journalist.

:eyes:

[Dappleganger]

244. One cannot possibly see all of that area in one week

prior to the earthquake, much less afterwards.

[WolverineDG]

8. Don't confuse the 404th Chairborne with facts

it gets in the way of their anti-anything American whining. It's all America's fault because the US can't work around the laws of physics & the space-time continuum. In their minds, relief planes are capable of landing, offloading& taking off by themselves & the supplies can get themselves exactly where they're needed. No need for unnecessary things like ground equipment, trucks, supplies, & personnel to run them.

dg

[EFerrari]

12. Amy Goodman spent a week in Haiti. You can hardly call her chairborn.

But I hope you're all warm and snuggled up in that flag of yours.

[Political Heretic]

16. Yeah knee-jerk idiocy abounds. :(

Sigh.

USA! USA! USA!

:patriot:

[readmoreoften]

35. It's the center-right "Democrats", those folks we welcomed when they abandoned Bush in 2004.

These people are fools.

[WolverineDG]

153. I see you had your ass handed to you earlier on the hospital thing

why didn't Angelic Amy cover the story from THAT angle? OH! It would have made the US look GOOD, that's why.

dg

[TxRider]

163. Yeah here is a report from the first doctor to show up at that hospital

Not looking good for Goodman's credibility. She missed the whole real story being so preoccupied with her bias.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/progress-catastrophe-to-s_b_433420.html

[WolverineDG]

164. EFerrari is ignoring the part that says the military had to get permission first

As is usual for the anti-US anything crowd, she ignored the work done by the forces that the doctor mentioned (& was appreciative of).

dg

[EFerrari]

189. I'm just going to start posting this as #3.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7550942&mesg_id=7554144

But thanks for continuing to misrepresent my position. :)

[Dappleganger]

245. I'm sorry but a week in Haiti

is NOTHING, timewise.

[Kaleva]

14. +1

[EFerrari]

18. You didn't watch the video, either, did you?

[Kaleva]

50. None of the people interviewed expressed concern about the...

militarization of the country. The Red Zones were initially set up by the UN prior to the earthquake which Mz. Goodman doesn't make clear in her opening comments but those interviewed do say that.

[Political Heretic]

52. Um, the PEOPLE INTERVIEWED ARE NOT REALLY IN THE POSITION FOR POLITICAL ANALYSIS RIGHT NOW

are they?

Jesus Christ.

Yes my arm's blown off, and my children are dead, and I haven't seen any of the rest of my country in days, but let me tell you right now what I think about whether things are too militarized or not.....

Unbe-fucking-lievable.

[Kaleva]

60. So who is expressing concern about the militarization of the country?

The people she interviews say nothing about the US or the military. They talk about the UN and the large international aid organizations who failed to develop connections with the local communities prior to the earthquake.

[EFerrari]

81. Here. This is the director of Partners in Health, the org that has

the biggest network of clinics in Haiti and who is running the General Hospital, the biggest one in Haiti:

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/20/devastated_port_au_prince_hospital_struggles

[Kaleva]

98. The people interviewed are not Haitians.

"Amy Goodman: And the US soldiers have also just arrived, more than 10,000 of them. It’s causing chaos, because people who are taking care of their families, who have been operated on, who are waiting to be operated on, who go to get their only means of sustenance, perhaps food or water, they’re trying to get in. And now, for the first time, they’re not able to, or they’re having trouble.

DR. EVAN LYON: That was not a mandate from anybody, but we do—we do need crowd control. There’s no insecurity. We need some crowd control so that the patients are not kept from having access.

To this point, the military has not been here. They showed up about half an hour ago for the first time.

We have a thousand people on this campus that are triaged and ready for surgery, but we only have four working ORs without anesthesia and without pain medications. And we’re still struggling to get ourselves up to twenty-four-hour care."

Amy Goodman says the presence of the military at the hospital is causing chaos but Dr. Lyon says they just arrived and the hospital does need crowd control. He goes on to say the hospital does not have the supplies needed.

[EFerrari]

104. Selective perception on skates.

I have read the transcript and have seen the video. Lyon says that this does look like an occupation and that this presence could be very destructive. He also says that these Marines haven't brought him anything.

Oh, and they tried to keep the press out.

Again, these Marines bear no blame. They are doing the job they were given.

Whoever planned this clusterf#ck bears a lot of blame.

[Kaleva]

133. But where is this chaos that Goodman says the troops are causing?

Dr. Lyon says quite clearly they are providing crowd control. Dr. Lyon also responds to Goodman's question about Hugo Chavez calling it an occupation by saying it looks like one (which doesn't mean it actually is one) and this presence could be destructive which implies that so far, the presence hasn't been destructive.

[EFerrari]

151. No, he says the hospital could use crowd control. And at the time

of this interview, the Marines had been there for a whole 20 minutes. Lyon also says that there had been no problems before the Marines show up.

And he also says, if that's how many troops are here, yes, it is an occupation.

What do you expect Lyon to do? He didn't call for these troops and now his hospital is surrounded. Do you think he should have picked a fight with them? He's probably hoping to work well with them and eventually get some of what he needs.

As far as chaos, when armed men move into there crowds and start shouting at people in English, it's not helpful. When they occupy the hospital grounds and start denying people access to those grounds without checking with the hospital admin, that's not helpful. I don't know what else Amy meant but those are the two things I remember from this and other tape that she put up. Anderson Cooper has clips of people on the street saying they need food and water, not guns and they obviously feel insulted.

[TxRider]

161. What a pant load

The military was called for.

One of the first doctors asked for the military support, talked to the general and military surgeon in charge, and even had to go to the Haitian minister of health to get him to grant permission for the military to respond.

Here it is in the doctors own words.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/progress-catastrophe-to-s_b_433420.html

[EFerrari]

165. Aid was called for, obviously. You continue to conflate

aid and security.

And the account of this team mate of Dr. Lyon is in no way a contradiction of what Lyon says.

[TxRider]

179. Of course not, Lyon said the troops were needed and helping.

And quite frankly seemed a bit puzzled by Goodman's persistent questioning about "occupation". Especially after he said the troops were helping, and he's unaware of any U.S. troops being violent.

You kind of knew what was coming when she said 10,000 us troops had just arrived, saying they were "creating chaos" when Obviously thee were just a few troops that just showed up, with the military setting up an helicopter landing zone and organizing supplies to deliver and Dr. Lyon said they were needed and helping.

[FedUpWithIt All]

108. Dr. Lyon also said...

DR. EVAN LYON: I think it has real potential to be an occupation. If there are 12,000 soldiers here, it is an occupation. I’ve not known of any violence at the hands of the American military. We’ve also just barely had the beginning of collaboration with them, literally within the last thirty minutes. General Keane, their operations person, finally showed up here after some time. And the military is helping us secure the grounds. But of course this is an occupation. It’s not a—this is a disaster area. Warm bodies help, but military is potentially very destructive in this environment.

AMY GOODMAN: What do you need? What would be constructive?

DR. EVAN LYON: What we need right now is electricity, water, nurses, surgeons and materials. We have on site right now—we have seven operating rooms up and running. We need about fifteen or twenty within the next twenty-four hours. We have materials to keep the operating rooms going for maybe another twelve hours. Once that runs out, then we’re stuck.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

113. Of course it "could" be destructive

Say, if the military were gunning down looters or beating people in the streets, but that's not what they're doing. Seems to me, you all are stretching Dr. Lyon's words to try and make them fit your cause.

[FedUpWithIt All]

117. They are not doing those things WHY?

Could it be that the reports of rampant violence and need for excessive security are inaccurate like the people on the ground have been saying? :think:

Perhaps the runways would have been better served as portals for NECESSARY AID.

Damn, this is not hard.

[EFerrari]

122. Why do these posters have to defend the Pentagon run by Bush fixer

Bob Gates?

Against the reports of our best journalists?

It's unreal. :crazy:

[FedUpWithIt All]

127. It is unreal.

The funds are available, the manpower is available, the supplies are available and people are dying, ALL OVER HAITI, because of a lack of these things. It sickens me.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

138. While I understand your frustration

that doesn't change the fact that the initial post was inaccurate.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

137. Your best journalist's claim has been debunked numerous times in this thread

which you've incidentally chosen to ignore, over and over again.

[SidDithers]

180. And again, apparently...nt

Sid

[TxRider]

174. It's called being objective

The evidence is clear.

Goodman blew it.

[EFerrari]

176. Keep digging.

:)

[TxRider]

181. You mean keep burying Goodmans hack piece

Here is a more objective piece. A bit more professional piece about the real issues, and the real progress, not a hack piece about some "potential" U.S. nefarious secret intentions.

Talking directly to the doctor who first arrived, Dr. Hyman, who with his wife father in law and two nurses set up at the hospital and later called on the 82nd airborne for help.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6108550n&tag=api

He also talks to the 82nd airborne officers.

[EFerrari]

191. This is my last response to you. That piece didn't even mention

Partners in Health, the outfit that doctor works for and whose director Amy interviewed.

The piece supports Goodman's report, not the other way around.

Seriously, do you even look at the material you post here?

Whatever your agenda is, it's not objective, it's not even careful.

[TxRider]

203. Copping out...

The interviewed people say that the issue is that because long before the earthquake hit, the "red zones" kept the U.N. and NGO's from developing a network of communication and contacts in these areas, that now the areas cannot communicate to the U.N effectively what aid they need now after the quake, and that the U.N. and NGO infrastructure being hevily damaged is also a factor.

Nothing about -current- security getting in the way, only that repercussion of a -past- security having an effect, and even then that's only an opinion.

Best summed up with this quote from your link.

"One reason is, to be fair to MINUSTAH and a lot of the larger organizations, a lot of their buildings were destroyed. And the UN, in particular, lost a lot of staff. So for them to be able to get their logistics machinery set up and rolling has been difficult for them. So that’s one reason. But another is that they don’t have the connections within the community to be able to get things out quickly. And I think that’s a major failure of the way that larger aid organizations comport themselves, in general."

They don't have those connections, because due to the existence of "red zones" over many previous years the NGO's do not travel to those areas and they have not been able to build those connections.



To post here implying the U.S. military jumped into Haiti, imposed security red zones and in doing so is hampering aid, or as you yourself put it in your original post..

"The militarization of Haiti is disgusting and no one can responsibly argue that it is necessary. But it sure does pave the way for some good ol' Disaster Capitalism in the days to come..."

Is inaccurate at best.

[inna]

200. Unreal indeed.

I mean, I keep shaking my head in disbelief as I'm reading this thread. :crazy:

Thank you (and PH, too) for being objective and standing your ground. :yourock:

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

131. They flew in with aid, you realize, and the initial forces were used to both get the airport up

and running AND to build two new landing fields (thus dramatically increasing the number of flights into the country each day). You should really keep that in mind when making such a criticism. Frankly, you seem to be overlooking this, which is weird, because "this is not hard" either, my friend.

While the fears of violence may have been overstated, perhaps instead of being outraged, we ought to be relieved? Just a thought. Governments are always going to err on the side of caution in such situations because they know that if an aid worker had been killed the situation would be even more dire - aside from our government being blamed for not securing the area, other aid organizations would have halted their operations out of fear for the lives of their own people. Think big picture here, will ya?

[FedUpWithIt All]

139. So the UN was wrong and the aid agencies are wrong and the doctors on the ground are wrong and ...

other nations are wrong an some of our own military personal are wrong and our search and rescue teams are wrong and the media is wrong, and the local Haitians are wrong and the church groups sneaking in all over the country are wrong...

I got it. Thanks.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

143. If you'd like to discuss something in particular, I'd be more than happy to do so

Keep me posted.

[WolverineDG]

154. and all those people coming & going

might have had something to do with the Haitian children who have disappeared from hospitals. Might have been prevented had there been some kind of crowd control, but remember, according to the anti-US brigade, there are NO security concerns.

dg

[EFerrari]

166. By the same logic, we should have Marines guarding all our hospitals.

Anti-Us brigade, my bald headed granny.

[WolverineDG]

169. Haven't been to the maternity ward lately, have you?

there's already security in place.

But in Haiti, there isn't, so children are disappearing from hospitals. But you keep on insisting there is no need for security forces because there are no problems with security.

Anti-US, yes you are. You completely ignored whole portions of the doctor's report from the General Hospital which stated precisely why the "Marines" showed up for 30 minutes with no aid because it doesn't fit with your anti-US bias.

dg

[EFerrari]

171. No, that's not my position no matter how many times you misrepresent it.

My position is that there was no need TO DELAY AID IN THE CRUCIAL HOURS AND DAYS after the quake by prioritizing security when there was no mass insecurity.

Bookmark this post for the time you manage to forget what I've posted so many times.

There is no need for me to reprise the doctor's report when THE LINK TO IT WAS PROVIDED and when I was ONLY SPEAKING TO MY OWN POSITION which you keep misrepresenting and now you're adding this "anti-US bias" bs. I'm anti stupid preventable deaths. Even you should be able to tell the difference.

[WolverineDG]

195. And you blamed it all on the US

despite the fact that the US forces on the ground were up to their asses in alligators at the airport & at the port, getting them up & running. You blamed it all on the US despite the laws of physics which state that if you only have ONE runway and ONE ramp, you can't fucking land every damn plane that wants to land. You blamed it all on the US despite the fact that there was NO support equipment on the ground to offload cargo and get it out to the hospitals & clinics, so those had to land first.

You constantly ignore these facts because you are only looking for ways to blame the US for everything you think has gone wrong. And when given the opportunity to say you were either wrong or to say something positive about what the US has done, you always chose to ignore it.

Sounds anti-US to me.

dg

[inna]

201. what low and pathetic bullshit.

:thumbsdown:

:puke:

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

208. Since you're a newcomer to this discussion, I'll assume you're simply unaware

The poster getting slammed has quite a track record. Frankly, I think Wolverine's remarks are spot on.

[WolverineDG]

224. And now yet ANOTHER disaster response expert is heard from

:eyes: :puke:

:thumbsdown:

dg

[EFerrari]

57. None of the people interviewed expressed concern

because there is no military there. There is also no UN. And for that reason, there is no food, water or medicine.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

59. And your immediate solution is....? What? By-pass the U.N.?

You're already all over these boards claiming the U.S. has gone too far.

[Political Heretic]

21. It's Democracy Now! for fucks sake. You can't ask for more journalistic integrity.

Amy Goodman is reporting ON THE GROUND IN HAITI.

Where are YOU at?

Oh... that's right. In your fucking chair.

[WolverineDG]

152. And she's conveniently ignoring things that interfere with her

"US is always bad" bias.

And I'm in my fucking chair, just like you're in your fucking chair, except I'm looking at the situation realistically.

dg

[EFerrari]

177. LOL. You're realistic and Amy is unAmerican.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

196. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. And on carriers no less

[tallahasseedem]

75. +1

and don't forget! You make baby jeebus cry everytime her credentials are questioned.

[Political Heretic]

15. I'm sorry but Amy Goodman is on the ground and her reporting is impeccable.

I just watched Democacy Now tonight and she was walking through one of the areas that has received zero aid of any kind, because it's designated as a "security risk."

There was no security risk there, just 90% buildings collapsed, people rotting in the street and desperate people in need. That's a tragic failure of the organization of relief.

As far as the military goes, there is no reason to be flying in massive amounts of troops, guns and equipment for a humanitarian crisis. But its the way the United States things about everything....

OMG SECURITY!!!!1!!11ONE!!!11

Tragic.

[EFerrari]

22. On Anderson Cooper tonight, one of his sidekicks says the same thing.

He said, there's some improvement in PaP but nothing in the provinces.

But, I must have seen that with my chairborne, anti-American eyes. lol

I'm glad you posted this, PH. People will watch it, even if they don't post about it. Thank you.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

47. It's strange to me that you blame the United States for what is a United Nations set up.

[Political Heretic]

51. I "blame" the united states for dumping soliders and military equipment into Haiti.

I'm not blaming the US for the set up of the situation.

But you are betraying your own preset bias... you came into this thread with your own knee-jerk assumptions about what was being said and thought, and have taken ridiculous lengths to try and discredit using pathetic five year old anecdotal evidence and twisting the words of others.

If you have substantive, evidence-based objection to the reporting, then produce the evidence, and I would fully expect Goodman to issue a correction, since shes the only journalist I've ever seen who is willing to do that much anymore.

Until then, that whatever chip it is you've got on your shoulder and carry it somewhere else. Seriously.

Like I said, I can't believe the BLITZ of talking points brigage people who charged into this thread to use every cheap trick and dirty argument tactic to discredit it.

I didn't even have any idea that anyone would find anything controversial! It's Democracy freaking NOW! for fucks sake! It doesn't get much better journalisticly than that.

Of course... I guess there's been some bitter haiti thread wars that I haven't been a part of going on, so I suppose strident sides are being formed.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

63. I did not realize that the US sent the 1st Armored and the 25th Infantry divisions

Take time and think about this for a little bit...Most military are not blooded combat troops. Yes the US sent the ready units, because they are set up to deploy on 2 hours notice. After that they diverted units already afloat. However many of the uniformed first responders were logisticians, ATC, transportation, engineering. Amphibs are carrying supplies, not an invasion force.

There are people here with varying levels of experience in this kind of thing...you might want to consider their expertise.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

64. The increased flow of aid is a direct result of those soldiers' actions.

The U.S. "dump(ed)" soldiers and military equipment into Haiti to do what, though? To repair the airport, build two new airfields, clear streets, repair the port, etc. And you're mad about this?? Honestly? I tell you, my friend, the aid flowing into that country would be at a trickle if they hadn't.

Secondly, I recommend you sit down and chat with the woman you've put on such a pedestal. As I've said, I'm sure even she would be quite frank about the fact that she has to work within certain limitations due to her low profile.

Third, most of the complaints seem to be carry overs from EFerrari's claims on every other thread about this topic and are not directed towards you, or your source - not entirely anyway. I think it is fair to say some sides have been formed (unfortunately).

[Kaleva]

73. The ratio of support personnel to combat personnel is about 2.5 to 1

That's in an actual conflict. I imagine a majority of the troops in Haiti or being deployed there are support personnel and not combat troops.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. We got a WINNAH

Except that it is closer to any deployment. 10:1

[Kaleva]

79. The ratios vary depending on the source.

If one looks at one particular unit, especially a combat unit, the ratio is small but if one looks at the Army and Marines as as a whole, the ratio becomes much larger.

[Political Heretic]

148. That doesn't matter to me.

What matters to me is that, in my opinion, the hard numbers of troops in haiti are too many.

We can argue about that, and I'm quite sure reasonable arguments can and will be made to disagree with me. But it's certainly not about ratio. I don't think the US needs to be bringing soliders and military equipment into Haiti at all, at the very least not in the numbers that they are brining. The ratio to me doesn't matter.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

210. Still got to disagree

When you consider how the police force in Port-au-Prince disintegrated and the Brazilian mission was in complete disarray, some level of security was needed. As I've said before, for as much as people are condemning the U.S. over sending troops, just as many people - if not more - would be screaming on the sidelines if we hadn't done so and something had happened to an aid worker or the aid itself was looted. It's one of those wonderful lose-lose situations nations find themselves in when they try to help folks out.

And again, that military equipment was used to get things moving in Haiti. They have the equipment available and were able to get it into the country quickly. Still fail to see the problem on that one.

[nadinbrzezinski]

241. So do show me a civlilian helo with the heavy lift capacity

or for that matter show me why Engineering batalions should NOT bring engineering equipment...

Some times MIC products are actually needed.

Speaking strictly as a disaster worker, I KNOW that heavy lift choppers come mighty useful. They do exist in teh civilian world Usually they are used by companies doing very specialized construction, or logging. Mind you finding out what these choppers started their lives as?

[FedUpWithIt All]

77. According to a WH release as per CNN yesterday...

6:20 p.m. -- U.S. medical assistance teams have treated 7,000 patients in Haiti, the White House said in a statement. A total of 160 U.S. missions have been flown carrying 2,600 tons of relief supplies and more than 2,500 military and relief personnel into Haiti, and will be delivering 50,000 hand held radios to Haitian, the statement said. The U.S. has also evacuated approximately 10,500 people from Haiti so far, including 8,300 American citizens, the White House said.

50,000 hand held radios :wtf: While 20,000 estimate people are dying EVERY DAY from preventable infections and other preventable conditions?!?! Surely they meant to say painkillers, antibiotics, surgical kits, food and water.

How many times were the experts at MSF turned away?

The truth is that the American doctors, nurses and firemen will all be coming home at some point. They will have stories to tell of their actual experiences. They will cry to their loved ones while they battle the PTSD and word WILL travel. They will tell fellow Americans the same stories that they have been telling the media. The difference is that word of mouth cannot be accused of having "media bias". The apathetic :patriot: waving will then be seen for what it is...blind allegiant BS during one of the most horrific disasters in anyone's memory.

Time will possibly tell in other ways as well. We will all see how long it takes the US to remove it weaponed hand from Haiti.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. You also did know the UN is in charge of food distribution

and that the FOOD world Program has given out a few rations... like in the hundreds of thousands, and expects to ramp up to a million...

Oh you mean you didn't know that?

I have been posting their OpReports every morning.

Oh and the Red Cross, no, not the American Red Cross, the ICRC, has also given out like oh 200,000 rations too...

Oh never mind.

I am sure people are just sitting on their hunches.

oh and if rescue personnel come with stories relating to the food situation, I will be shocked. Not like they had time to go look

[FedUpWithIt All]

82. So more than a week and a half after the quake, only 2,800,000 will potentially be without food.

What a relief.

But you know, we have plans to get those radios in. We also have LOTS AND LOTS of security now. Whew. Soon, with all those starving people kicking, we won't even need security. They will all be too weak to cause trouble (not that anyone on the ground is really complaining about widespread violence, in fact they are saying violence in Haiti is DOWN since the tragedy but i digress)Thank Gods too because we have to protect those damned aid workers from themselves, they think they can just go walking into Haiti and delivering aid to dying people!?! We cannot allow the expert aid groups, and the nations that support them, to decide for themselves whether they are willing to take those risks (like they have been doing since before my grandmother was in diapers). They will all be killed i tell you!

Little tidbit from the Satan CNN...

7:10 p.m. -- About 4 million pounds of food are being sent by barge from Puerto Rico to Haiti, CNN's Mike M. Ahlers reports. Puerto Rican authorities say that when it arrives in Haiti on Monday morning, it will be the single largest shipment of aid to arrive there to date. The food is said to be enough to feed the people of Port-au-Prince for a week. Organizers say it would take 150 planes to carry as much cargo.

Wow, 150 flights eh? That's almost as many flights as the US had done in more than a week and 1/2. Puerto Rico must not be following Standard Operating Procedure.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. I know I am still lookign for the pixie dust

and the teleporters.

You were still saying this is not done.

Oh and the UN is in charge of actual humanitarian relief

Oh and dime on dollar this was LA Basin, due to the extent of this, we'd be having a very similar conversation. Just remove the Malaria and Dengue from the picture, and we do have the National Disaster Hospital Network which would be overwhelmed by day three.

By the way, they've gone from zero to these many EMRATS, meaning high energy bars, MREs... not rice and beans... you were making fun of kitchen kits weren't you?

[Kaleva]

83. Only one organization is making the claim that 20k Haitians are dying daily.

"Despite all the incoming help, Partners in Health, an organization that has been providing health care in Haiti for two decades, estimated that 20,000 Haitians were dying daily from lack of surgery. But that figure was not backed up by other aid organizations in Haiti and appeared to be much higher than other estimates of the continuing death toll from injuries. The W.H.O. said it was just beginning to gather epidemiological data to assess how much the quake’s toll, which is still uncertain, might rise."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/21/world/americas/21haiti.html

[EFerrari]

84. Right. And that would be the one organization that is the best established

and that has the most clinics and biggest network.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. And the number is still high for the second wave

by orders of magnitude.

That does not mean 20K might not die... overall, with expected data in the past, taking into account the death toll high number floated (200,000)

But a day? You got to be fucking kidding me.

[FedUpWithIt All]

86. Partners in Health (who are in the thick of it) said 20,000 for "lack of surgery"

I added the addition of other potential killers to buffer the (very respectable) organization's claims. Things like not drinking clean, or any for that matter, water for 10 days will also kill you. ;)

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. That is a VERY HIGH number given historical data

by ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE.

Second waves happen though, they are a reality.

DWB and planes come to mind... and marketing to raise funds 101 for NGOs.

Sorry... seen this before.

[FedUpWithIt All]

91. Are you questioning the experts? From your armchair no less? n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Actually yes, I am

there is a historic background to this. Not the first time this happens you know. Or is this the first quake in modern history?

Yes some thousands of people will die, but 20K per day is a little steep...

As in orders of magnitude steep.

Most casualties come from things like Acute Renal Failure, due to crush injuries... and secondary infections.

So yes, I am calling them on it.

People ARE dying... but this is orders of magnitude too high.

And if they are telling us the truth, we are taking of a historic level of casualties nobody has seen in the worst earthquakes ever.

[FedUpWithIt All]

105. I guess time will tell if you are more knowledgeable than Partners in Health

I dare say, if you are wrong, it means that your error caused you to be blase about the unnecessary deaths of a staggering number of people, all while you defended the incompetence that led to their demise.

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. I am not blasse, if they are right

there are a few books that need rewriting.

What if they are wrong? I am hoping that the books are right and they not just off, but WAY OFF.

What if like usual in second phases, high numbers are scaled down when the actual epidemiology is done.

They are like just starting with that. PIH are not experts. The Panamerican Health Organization and the WHO are.

But historic data usually places secondary casualties from 5-10% of initial deaths.

So... 200,000 death, 20K\day is very high.

Now if we take into account two year data on higher deaths, add another 10% on the high end.

Thousands are still going to face that... but that is because of the SIZE of this disaster.

In fact, recovery for this, is NOT five years, but a generation.

[FedUpWithIt All]

119. You are so determined to ignore the possibiliity that less people might be facing life or death

if more aid and less guns had arrived in Haiti on those limited runways.

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. 600 planes last time I saw

26 planes with military personnel, including Forward Air controllers and cargo handling personnel, Very few rifle sluggers actually.

The rest supplies

You do the math.

Oh and no cargo handling equipment it would have taken five times to unload those planes.

[FedUpWithIt All]

129. "A total of 160 U.S. missions have been flown"

From a WH report YESTERDAY.

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. My last number was 600 planes

now that is 160 US Missions. Tell me who else has flown missions then?

Or you think this is just the US?

I think 15 of those are from Mexico. The IDF hospital was at least three... Colombia has come with a few too, Spain, the UK, DWB... I could go on.

See the picture now? This is a GLOBAL effort.

[TxRider]

184. That's 160 -a day- on a runway that usually supports 30

[lostnfound]

145. perhaps 20k per day for just a few critical days

seems possible, like for the 7th, 8th, 9th day.. hearing the reports of so many thousands trapped under the rubble or standing in line at every clinic waiting for surgical supplies or doctors using saws purchased in the market. I'm sure the people who made that statement are exhaustedand overwhelmed, as well, so who knows.. If they are looking at one area and seeing 100s of untreated compound fractures and open wounds, and extrapolating to other parts of the city as well as villages close to the epicenter, I can see getting to that kind of number.
Port au Prince is a densely populated city with a lot of cheap construction. What does it compare to in terms of earthquakes?

No sense making enemies out of people just for minor differences of opinion. Maybe its "only" 5K per day..who knows, only God I think will ever know. Maybe PIH is wrong or maybe they are right. Whether they are right or wrong, they are still a fantastic group and deserve respect to be heard. I was a little puzzled at the DN broadcast yesterday myself but it certainly gave a more in-depth and interesting report than what has been on mainstream. I trust DN's reporting more than any other broadcast, and if it isn't perfect on occasion, that's life. Selavi.

God help us all.

Did you ever read Shock Doctrine? I don't believe that Obama's response to Haiti has been as skewed as what was done in Aceh..but don't fault people here for being concerned because certainly there are always background stories that are going on of people trying to profit financially or ideolically from disasters. People are frustrated and they recognize the pretty-p.r.-bubble of the mainstream news for what it is, so they question the ever-popular America-on-a-white-horse fairy tale whenever they see it. The fairy tale has been so oversold that many aren't buying it anymore. There's nothing unique about 'American generosity' -- people all over the world are trying to help.

[nadinbrzezinski]

157. Even Naomi Klein has said the actions of the IMF and WB

short circuit it, and yes I read it

And you are telling me that since the quake happened the casualties doubled?

The 200,000 number INCLUDES those buried under the rubble

[lostnfound]

206. No, I'm not.

I'm just saying that on the day that the PIH made a comment that as many as 20,000 a day could be dying who might be able to live if they had surgery, that estimate might have been so far off. "20,000 a day right now" does not mean 20,000 a day for 10 days.. The wound infections might have been more deadly on day 7 than they were on day 3, right? How many were still trapped but alive on day 7 and how many were standing in line and dying due to lack of treatment. Day 1 had to be the highest death rate, but couldn't there be a second peak (far smaller) when the untreated infections take their toll?

[nadinbrzezinski]

232. That's the second wave, and that is

anywhere from five to ten percent of total casualties.

The Haitian government has floated a high number of 200,000 in the initial incident, with confirmed of 75K last time I checked.

It will probably be bellow 200,000, but if you use that number that will give you the high number of second wave, and they will peak about week two of this.

[WolverineDG]

155. Radios= reliable means of communication

you know, so that they can let people know where to go for help? It's not like the Haitians are able to watch CNN or call 911.

:eyes:

dg

[Dappleganger]

246. Yes, answering questions such as where are food drops and medical centers?

Those radios are essential to survival of people who need to be moving the hell out of there to safety!

[Merchant Marine]

140. I dunno about you,

But a crumbled urban environment with a desperate population and no rule of law is a textbook example of a security risk, especially for unarmed persons distributing food and water. You need a security element for crowd control and to prevent a riot or panic. Otherwise the trucks are rushed by young, strong males and the weak are trampled in the confusion.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

142. Exactly.

And there have been reports of incidents of violence already. How the security threat eludes some of the people on this board is beyond me.

"A stick-wielding gang have attacked Haitians waiting for aid at a food distribution centre on the outskirts of Port-au-Prince.

Over a thousand people had been waiting for the distribution of food when the mob of men attacked."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8474534.stm

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Political Heretic]

23. My God I had no clue I was posting something "controversial." It's DEMOCRACY NOW!

Like.... sort of the GOLD STANDARD of independent journalistic integrity...

My god. DU just needs to be renamed OwellianUnderground I swear to Christ.

Black is White, Up is Down.

We've always been at war with Democracy Now!

:eyes:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

61. I did not realize anything on Democracy Now was holy writ beyond question

Goodman reported what she saw. Others have reported things differently. That's perfectly fine. Different views of the elephant in an astable environment.

Saying anyone or any site is above reproach is pretty damn silly. Open your tent a little.

[EFerrari]

66. Amy Goodman is the gold standard.

And far from being above reproach, she posts her work to her site so it can be critiqued.

And, "others" who aren't reproducing Pentagon faxes tend to agree with her, btw.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

67. Well, look

Nadin has provided several examples of aid being distributed in Red Zones in this thread, so it appears Amy Goodman didn't know the full story on this one. This, again, goes back to the limitations she faces as a reporter of relatively low profile...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

69. And many do not...

Goodman is not treated as a "real" journalist, and has no network style support team. She reports what she sees filtered through her own viewpoint. Nothing wrong with any of the above, but there are others doing the same thing and producing different results. That is to be expected under the circumstances.

Gold standard is a silly term...each report should get evaluated on its own merits.

[EFerrari]

80. Nope. There is no one on the ground that disputes her report.

:)

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. Nobody was at Jacmel

except the Canadian DART team...

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

116. I see EFerrari is STILL ignoring your evidence

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. So how do you deal with the Canadians and the Jamaicans

BEING PRESENT in Leogane and Jaqmel? Yes even she makes mistakes.

[Political Heretic]

95. I listen to the Haitian people SAYING they aren't and take their word for it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. Somebody is lying then.

And I am fed up with people, for different ideological blinders, not seeing that things are moving

Now at the MICRO level, quite possible... hell in the floods there were a few colonia Perdidas my people never reached... does that mean that happened because there was an ulterior motive? Or perhaps I did not have like the resources in place to do that?

I guess we really did not want to reach them... yeah that must be the answer... and for the MSM it is because government is inefficient, and for the left it is because well, shit they want to (insert reason here, ranging from genocide to others).

Nah, lack of actual resources on the ground YET, for valid logistical reasons could not be it.

Here is a shocker. Mark my words. There are areas in the Zone that will NOT see help at all, not now, not in six months.

And we will have this conversation in six months...

[Political Heretic]

111. I agree, someone is lying and I'm gonna go ahead and stand with the Haitians

[Political Heretic]

115. And I'm fed up with ideologically blind people not accepting that there are problems

We actually shouldn't be arguing.... but you have to come in on your fucking crusade - I've watched you across multiple threads now... shitting all over this thread because you are PROJECTING.

And you're seeing what's pissing you off everywhere you look now, overreacting, trying to beat everything down everywhere.

This is like, I think, the second thread I've ever started on haiti. And it will most certainly be the last. The one who look like they are ideologically blind right now, aint me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. No PH... I am talking form ACTUAL EXPERIENCE doing this

you know like for real and shit.

And what I told you is REAL. There are people that will NEVER see any aid... PERIOD.

That is a sad reality. Unlike you, I am not willing to ascribe evil motives.

THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT.

So unless you show me where people have ordered that aid is stopped... a WRITTEN ORDER... I am sorry if I am not willing to jump off that very short pier.

And in reality what you are seeing on ALL reporting, is what we call the in front of your nose syndrome, because reporters do NOT have the full picture.

Don't worry. Concert's done... Haiti is gone.

[TxRider]

159. How about the first doctor to arrive at the main hospital?

Would he be a better source than any Goodman?

He is still there. Sorry Goodman blew it on this one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7553406&mesg_id=7553406

[EFerrari]

167. You are blowing this one. This doctor works for Partners in Health

whose director is the doc Amy interviewed.

Geezus, read your own posted link.

[TxRider]

173. Exactly

And while you go on and on about saint Goodman, who insinuates the military wasn't asked for, and insinuates they are not welcome...

Both your doctor and the one I linked to say they were asked for, they are welcome, they are needed, and they are helping.

Goodman did a hack piece for sensationalistic purposes, she should be ashamed.

[EFerrari]

175. You're still conflating aid with security.

And calling Amy a hack is beyond laughable.

[TxRider]

190. I'm not conflating anything

Read the transcript.

The people interviewed says the problem is the local communities not able to communicate their needs to the U.N. and larger aid organizations, because there is no communication history between them and the aid orgs, and that a lot of their delivery infrastructure was destroyed.

The "red zones" they are speaking of are zones that existed before the earthquake. Nothing to do with why aid isn't getting delivered, according to the people interviewed. Only to do with why there isn't a network of communications existing before the quake.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

211. Then how do you explain the discrepancies between her report and these others?

[readmoreoften]

28. God forbid anyone who's ON THE GROUND should report anything you don't want to hear.

Anything that conflicts with the center-right worldview is automatically false.

http://www.standwithhaiti.org/haiti

[EFerrari]

34. We're just so brittle any more. And gawd knows, I am, too.

But, sheesh.

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. Yeah here is some reporting on the ground

More on Jacmel, one of hte red zones, not getting help

:sarcasm:

Canadian aid efforts focus on town linked to GG
Juliet O'Neill, Canwest News Service: Monday, January 18, 2010
Brigadier General Guy Laroche (centre) tours Jacmel, Haiti, Sunday, January 17, 2010
Brigadier General Guy Laroche (centre) tours Jacmel, Haiti, Sunday, January 17, 2010
Photo Credit: Tyler Anderson/ National Post, Tyler Anderson/ National Post
RELATED

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* How YOU can helpHow YOU can help
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* Canadians being airlifted out of Haiti; relief arriving to troubled Caribbean nationCanadians being airlifted out of Haiti; relief arriving to troubled Caribbean nation

* Rescue teams arrive to find survivors trapped in Port-au-Prince devastationRescue teams arrive to find survivors trapped in Port-au-Prince devastation
* Bodies pile up as Haiti quake toll risesBodies pile up as Haiti quake toll rises

OTTAWA - Canadian military forces are going to base a big part of their Haitian earthquake relief operations in Jacmel, a southern port city where Gov. Gen. Michaelle Jean spent her summers as a little girl.

The plan was outlined Monday by Brig.-Gen. Guy Laroche, commander of Canadian Forces in Haiti, and Canadian ambassador Gilles Rivard in Port-au-Prince, Haiti's capital.

"Jacmel is cut from the world," Rivard said.

http://www.globaltoronto.com/Canadian+efforts+focus+town+linked/2455796/story.html

And photos too

http://www.globaltoronto.com/Canadian+efforts+focus+town+linked/2455796/story.html

[Political Heretic]

96. One. One example. And suddenly all reporting on help hindered by "security" is invalidated.

I see how it works.

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. It is not just Amy Goodman playing the game

for different reasons the same report was filed by Snyderman on MSNBC... like she found no evidence of help.

THINK!

And it is not just one report, Jacmel IS THE CANADIAN area of responsibility.

It is called SECTORS. This is standard in a disaster.

[Political Heretic]

106. You're not getting it.

First of all, read the entire fucking transcript. Until you do, we're done here.

Tonight I watched the video reporting from Haiti, and this wasn't speculative or making inferences. These was a reporting crew walking to places where no aid is coming and no aid has been. Some of the worst hit places on the island. Why would I say no aid is coming and no aid has been? Because the people freaking sobbing into the camera fucking said so.

Part of the reason for no aid? It's "unsecure." It was so "unsecure" that this small team could stroll around without a problem.

Now, you come in, and your primary point seems to be examples of places designated as unsecure or "red zones" where aid is being given. Great. There are also places where NO AID is being given and one of the reasons being cited, when officials are asked, is the lack of security.

Okay, so you can post 5 billion more articles about how some places aid workers are kicking ass and working miracles in places classifed as unsecure. That's great. It has little to nothing to do with the problems being described in this piece.

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. Yes I KNOW, and I also know WHY

i could try to paint pictures but that is not going to help

This is NOT on purpose.

[Political Heretic]

147. I didn't say it WAS on purpose!

But it sucks, wouldn't you agree?

Please see my post just below this one (#146). Hopefully my response to the other gentleman or gentlewoman will help explain that what you apparently think my intentions were are not my intentions at all.

Basically, thanks to all of you guys I pretty much regret that I ever even posted anything on Haiti.

As I've said, I know there are mass flame wars going on about Haiti, but I haven't been involved in any of them. I don't know what baggage or assumptions you brought to my thread based on whatever arguments you've been fighting out with others for days and days - but I do feel you brought a whole sack full of them.

But not to worry, I don't think I'll be posting anything about haiti ever again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

158. My baggage or assumptions are those of a

rescue worker that did this shit for real like in a third world country.

[Political Heretic]

192. I meant baggage from other threads,

[nadinbrzezinski]

233. No I have been trying to correct the many misconceptions

that have been floating around, and how this works.

As I said, my baggage is actual knowledge of this, at the actual field level.

The politics are important, and trust me by day four you saw them... but my baggage is actually trying to educate people

This is the worst disaster at multiple levels in a long time... and the worst I have seen.

And I did not mean anything against Amy Goodman, but the in front of my nose reporting is a common problem, not just affecting her either.

It is an across the board problem... and does not just include the US press. BBC has a little less of a problem, but that is why the actually asked a few people how this works.

I have not just being critical of Goodman... I slammed the RM show for missing the Canucks at Jacmel for example. And truth be told, don't expect a correction either.

[Political Heretic]

237. The point you are trying to make, misses other points.

I get your point. I "got" your point before you ever tried to make it. I wasn't "uneducated" on this particular subject, and yet feel no reason to compare relief-effort dick sizes.

In your passion to make your point, you've missed mine.

Failures to get aid where its needed, be they large scale sweeping problems, or small scale isolated problems - SUCKS.

It's sad. It's sad that the worst hit region of haiti still hasn't gotten aid, in part according to officials, because of its security designation.

That has nothing to do of the countless other places where aid is getting into places designated as security risks. It has nothing to do with the broader complexity of relief efforts. It has nothing to do with the challenges of on the ground reporting and generalizing from particulars.

You can't read the transcript - which I swear to christ I don't think either of you two have done yet - you simply can't get to the counter-point you are trying to make from the report that was cited.

You can take issue with MY comments, that I don't think we should be dumping guns, soldiers and armored vehicles into Haiti at all and argue with me, "educate" me on what I don't understand about the complexity of relief efforts in high-risk ares in the world. But that doesn't really challenge anything being said in the transcript, does it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

238. Logistics, now that the port is open, at 30% last time I chekced

the airport at Jacmel has been added and the base as San Isidro in the DR that bottleneck is more or less gone.

That is the part that people keep missing here.

I wish they could do it faster, but it is physically not possible.

There was close to zero infrastructure before the quake, after it there was zero.

You may want to think these are excuses, but even in the LA basin you'd see pretty much the same issues if the quake hit in certain areas... and with certain characteristics.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

212. Nah, hang in there man. It's better we hash this stuff out, even if it does get ugly sometimes.

Frankly, the numerous sources being posted always seem to ensure that a more well-rounded understanding of what's taking place is reached by the end anyway. Don't lose faith!

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

121. No, you're not getting it.

Your initial post made the claim that people in the designated Red Zones are not getting aid dispersed to them due to fears of a lack of security. Now that evidence to the contrary has been presented you're attempting to move the goal posts. Suddenly your argument is no longer that aid is not being dispersed to be people because they're in the designated Red Zones, but instead that aid isn't reaching ALL of the people in the designated Red Zones. Those ARE two different arguments, you realize. Or perhaps you don't?

[Political Heretic]

146. Hmm.. I dispute that my initial post says what you say it says.

I have one sentence of personal comments, and for the life of me I can't find anything that suggests that 100% of all people in red zones are receiving zero aid.

However, I can make this really simple, because I don't want to let ego or pettiness get in the way:

IF you think I said that, or if I said that, that's not what I meant. That's not what I intended when posting. That's not what I took away when I read the transcript.

The fact that this was nowhere in my thinking or my intentions when I posted probably explains a lot of the rancor - because a significant number of people flocked to my thread in a matter of minutes to argue against something I wasn't even intending to say.

So if this is all my fault, because I chose words poorly, then I was wrong and I apologize.

But again, I can't help but say I'm not sure what sentence you would point to in my post to substantiate the claim that I argued that all people in any red zones anywhere were receiving zero aid.

I feel simply that, security designations are creating serious problems in distributing aid in some of the worst hit areas where aid is most desperately needed and also that I'm unhappy with the amount of guns and military equipment being dumped into the country.

On that latter point, without trashing the military or the US, I feel like this is a mistake we often make - believing that the need for security requires a level of military "support" presence far beyond that which would actually be most helpful.

That's just an opinion. I don't know what all you've read people saying in other haiti threads because quite honestly I could feel the flame fest from miles away and I've largely avoided most of them.

But I made this post tonight because the reporting moved me - the transcript and the actual hour long report from on the ground in some of these worst hit areas where aid is not being received. So it prompted me to post.

Never in my wildest imagination did I dream it would have devolved into this hyperbolic mess of ideological flame warring.

You think I'm moving the goal posts. But *I* think that you came in from warring it out on fifty other threads about haiti and read into my post what you wanted to read into my post.

Either way, what you say I said was not what I wanted to say when I made my post. It would never occur to me to be foolish enough to think that I could authoritatively claim that zero aid was getting to anyone in Haiti that was outside of a designated secure zone. How would I possibly know that?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

214. Actually, anything I read into your post had more to do with Amy Goodman's story

which is the piece you cited for us, after all. I mean, watching the video makes it pretty clear, the assumption she's running with is that aid is being intentionally withheld from the designated Red Zones because of security concerns. Turns out, that's not an accurate depiction.

With that said, I see you're considering no longer posting these threads, so let me just say that I don't think you should stop doing so. Even though this was proved inaccurate (it seems my criticisms of Goodman proved fairly valid on this one, eh?) the ensuing discussion allowed the truth to come out - even if things did get ugly sometimes. And the truth is what matters in all of this.

[Political Heretic]

235. I don't think you accurately describe the reporting - in the slightest.

Those seem to be your assumptions, not connected to the facts reported.

In the areas where Goodman was reporting from, on the ground, those people have gotten no aid, and one of the reasons for this was, according to officials, "Security."

You can extrapolate from that all you want, but nothing in the report said that zero aid is getting to anyone in any red zone anywhere.

It simply wasn't said.

"Even though this was proved inaccurate" - where "this" is a straw-man you created...

"It seems my criticisms of Goodman proved fairly valid on this one, eh?" It seems the straw-man you concocted in your effects to discredit one of the last true independent journalists operating in this country proved to be fully transparent.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

250. But she didn't cite officials, did she?

If you watch the report, it seems she didn't even bother attempting to ask those in charge of coordinating the aid. She asked random relief workers who gave us their best guess-timate. That's the problem with relying too heavily on a reporter whose access is as limited as Amy Goodman's. At best, she can only give you one part of the story. Sometimes that might prove useful in fully understanding a situation. Other times, like this, it simply leaves the viewer with a complete misunderstanding of what's going on.

[TexasObserver]

30. Recommend

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Here you go, aid in red zones

Haitians crowd outside embassy as Canadian efforts continue in Jacmel, Leogane

By Jonathan Montpetit (CP) – 1 day ago

PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti — Crowds continue to gather outside the Canadian embassy in Port-au-Prince - Haitians hoping to escape the city more than a week after it was rocked by a massive earthquake.

Authorities says a staggering two million people are homeless while thousands are still without a steady supply of food and water. Outside the capital, members of Canada's Disaster Assistance Response Team are in the quake-ravaged town of Jacmel, while Canadian soldiers in the town of Leogane are continuing efforts to help.

With heavy equipment coming from Port-au-Prince, Canada and Jamaica, DART hopes to be pumping potable water in Jacmel within the next few days.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jPLeKwge7SQOrXOJFhCVdfSHSxYg

[ProgressiveProfessor]

70. If Amy Goodman did not report it, how can anyone claim its happening?

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. My problem is that everybody has pretty much reported

what is in front of their nose. Which for the record is normal in a disaster.

I got an idea of what the hell is going on there because I scour international press and I am not THERE, so I can get a strategic view of the disaster... add a little actual on the ground knowledge of how this works... and I can actually do real analysis...

I actually offered to do some of this to the networks, but I'm not in their rolodex!

:-)

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

103. It's bizzare that people don't even seem to know who Amy is

what her history is or what her body of work is.

[TxRider]

134. People know exactly who she is.

[Mudoria]

162. And some of us are unimpressed...

[EFerrari]

182. That's okay, Mudoria. I don't think you're her audience anyway.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

215. I'm not sure what that means, but...

it's pretty clear that Amy Goodman didn't do a very hot job on this story.

[EFerrari]

172. I'm taking what you say with a pillar of salt

because apparently you don't even read the articles you yourself link to.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

125. Oh nonsense. If the point were simply that aid hasn't reached everyone, everywhere

the Red Zones wouldn't have even been mentioned.

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

90. Many of us thought as much when on day three and four

Gates emphasis was on security, not aid. This is what the American military is best at, occupation.

I wish they would just get out of the way and let others handle the distribution. The reports state

there are probably enough medical personnel if they could just get supplies.

I listened to a Haitian man tonight from a neighborhood he described as "bad." He said, " we usually might

be bandits, but now we just need help. There are no bandits here."

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. The UNITED NATIONS is handlign distribution

have from day one.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

97. With all due respect...

you haven't gotten this right since day one.

The supplies at the airport are being distributed by the US.

A military spokesperson at the airport said as much during an interview.

You can try to do all the damage control you please, but this is turning into a pr

nightmare and it could have been avoided.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. If I pointed to you to the actual documents it woudl not matter

and if the US did not come it you'd be screaming anyway.

[TxRider]

178. With all due respect

You are completely wrong.

The supplies at the airport belong to the organizations who brought them in.

Some to NGO's, Some to the military, Some the other nations. Each is organizing it's own distribution, or trying to.

What would make you think the military is distributing the supplies from planes like DWB or other NGO's? Those NGO's have to find a way to move those supplies, or ask the military to help them do it.

The airmen at the airport is simply trying to maximize how much cargo can be landed and put off the planes onto the ground. That is their mission, and their specialty.

[FedUpWithIt All]

100. And the US is controlling the airport. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. They are in charge of logistics, add the seaport too

if you really want to do the full job.

You could like go look for the documents. They are on the web.

[FedUpWithIt All]

124. Yes, and doctors still are complaining that things like antibiotics, painkillers and supplies...

are not getting out from those places. The military and their semi-automatics are.

[nadinbrzezinski]

128. You do realize they are going out wiht rifles with empty magazines

and no helmets?

And those things are getting out... I will take the world of the ICRC on this.

Are they up and running as well as they should in a perfect world? No, but they are.

But they I guess the ICRC is also lying.

[FedUpWithIt All]

135. You don't know what you are talking about.

If you had watched the video the OP spoke about you would have seen the ammunition.

Second there is THIS from the NYT

Under the memorandum, Haiti maintains overall control of the aid and rescue efforts, though the United Nations is in charge of coordinating the work. But the memorandum does not put American soldiers or other personnel under United Nations command.The Americans remain focused on delivering aid, while the United Nations handles peacekeeping.

This is NOT what you claimed above.

The UN and the US had to have a memorandum because the UN said that the US was slowing the World Food Program deliveries.

The United Nations had complained about the American military’s handling of flights at the airport here, saying critical deliveries of food from the World Food Program were being unnecessarily delayed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/23/world/americas/23haiti.html

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

141. You seem to be misunderstanding

All that is meant by statement is that some American forces are distributing aid - however, the United Nations is the central organization in charge of coordinating it. If you don't believe me, go to the United Nations itself.

"The central coordinating role of the United Nations was accepted by all, including the United States..."

http://www.un.org/News/briefings/docs/2010/100120_Holmes.doc.htm

[nadinbrzezinski]

156. Seen plenty of video with troops who have no helmets

and you can see inside the rifle to make sure they have ammo? WOW

Again the ICRC is lying too.

Oh and as to claim that 20,000 are dying every day... try some math. That means that the same number of people who died in 36 seconds, (high number) have died...

Jesus age, there are some who I cannot help, you hate the US. If the US sat this one out, you'd be screaming for not helping. If they do, you scream...

No pleasing some people.

Oh and where I grew up we had a name for folks ...

And you think I am not aware of US LatAm relations? At least the young cadres screaming Yanquee go Home actually are trying to live that dream...

[Merchant Marine]

144. Do the numbers

25 US Navy and US Government ships. Of those, 5 are warships, a carrier, a helicopter carrier and 3 DDGs. 5 are Coast Guard cutters, though the USCG Grasp is a buoy tender. The remaining 15 ships are a mixture of Military Sealift Command Oilers and Dry Cargo transports and Maritime Administration cargo vessels.

13,000 military personnel. Of those, 10,000 are navy crewmen, airmen, coast guardsmen and merchant mariners who remain shipboard. 3,000 are ashore, and are a mixture of airborne, shipboard marine detachments and forward air controllers.

Percentage wise the Canadians sent a more militarized force than the US did. Both of their vessels are warships, and their armed troops form a higher percentage of their relief mission.

Hell, the Italians are sending a helicopter carrier as their only vessel.

Actually out of all the ships on station or en-route to Haiti, only the vessels of the US Maritime Administration are not specifically military owned or controlled, though MARAD has a long history of sealift support for the US.

[EFerrari]

168. The result is that the State Department has taken over control

of the UN mission away from Brazil, numbers not withstanding.

Do you believe your numbers or your lying eyes?

[TxRider]

186. Wrong

The U.N. mission wasn't earthquake disaster relief.

The U.N. and Brazil's mission remain, and Brazil is sending thousands more troops.

[EFerrari]

188. No, not wrong. The Pentagon has command and control. Try again.

Yes, Brazil is still there and will send in more people. So? They have been effectively elbowed out of the way.

[TxRider]

193. No they haven't been elbowed anywhere

And you have nothing to show that they have been but your rhetorical accusation.

They are in charge of security, and have been.

[EFerrari]

255. And I have some swampland you might want to look at.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

256. Your comment is a poor substitute for EVIDENCE that would support your case...

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

217. Again, you're wrong.

"MINUSTAH was also maintaining law and order in Port-au-Prince, with the assistance of some 2,000 personnel of the Haitian National Police."

http://www.un.org/News/briefings/docs/2010/100120_Holmes.doc.htm

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

216. You're incorrect.

Check with the U.N. itself sometime.

"MINUSTAH was also maintaining law and order in Port-au-Prince, with the assistance of some 2,000 personnel of the Haitian National Police."

http://www.un.org/News/briefings/docs/2010/100120_Holmes.doc.htm

[Kaleva]

253. +1

[EFerrari]

132. PH, as an antidote to all this stuff, I'm going to watch Randall Robinson

doing a Q&A with Brian Lamb. Peace.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/199550-1

[EFerrari]

170. Danny Schechter: Bungled Aid Hurts More than it Helps

By: GRITtv Friday January 22, 2010 10:00 am


Haitians woke up before we did Wednesday, with 6.1 earthquake-strength aftershocks adding more insult to their ongoing injuries. Those aftershocks were bad, but there’s been a failure, a massive failure, on the part of the Obama administration’s response to the disaster. This is a worse aftershock worth commenting on.

The aid program has become a disaster in itself, promising relief but delivering so little so that so that, despite some improvements after a week of bungled, uncoordinated, understaffed and poorly executed relief operation, Haitians are dying from preventable diseases, infections, dehydration and starvation.

The supplies are there—they are not getting them. Why?

This is negligence wrapped up with benevolence and good intentions. Yes we are seeing the horrific pictures. This shocking display of a people’s misery has become nighttime viewing with a small number of euphoric miracle moments of people being saved. But that’s a handful, relative to the hundreds of thousands who have gone without because of so-called bottlenecks and troubles. Clearly these people had no plans or knowledge of Haiti.

Also, clearly the US military doesn’t have the skills to run the airport. Imagine not allowing a plane of medical supplies from Doctors Without Borders to land a week into this debacle. Imagine, soldiers preparing for urban warfare and massive insecurity just because of a few looting incidents.

http://lauraflanders.firedoglake.com/2010/01/22/danny-schechter-aid-haiti/

Video, transcript at link

[Pavulon]

187. No the US has no idea how to run an air port

Edwards AFB, Elgin, Kadina, and the other HUNDREDS of places the US Military conducts flight operations of all types. Have you lost your fucking mind. Do you know how many planes the US landed from all over the world? One flight delays and turns back short fuel and the whole thing is a failure. You know that fucker could have carried a bit more jp5 or just flown into the ocean. One fucking plane out of hundreds of aid flights.

Do any of the other organizations you list maintain airlift capability? How many c-130s?

Imagine if people were actually stupid enough to believe this horse shit.

[WolverineDG]

197. Conveniently ignoring the facts again I see

and again, going out of your way to bash the US effort in Haiti. Yet you're not anti-US? Riiiiight.

dg

[inna]

202. Jesus Christ, will you stop with your malicious ad hominems already??

Discuss the issues and arguments on their merit, don't personally attack and slander other posters.

:thumbsdown:

[WolverineDG]

223. I have tried with this poster

but her blatant anti-US bias prevents her from comprehending that the US forces can't ignore the laws of physics.

:thumbsdown: to you too. :eyes:

dg

[inna]

226. you just can't stop, can you?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7550942&mesg_id=7555307

[WolverineDG]

228. neither can she

nor apparently, you.

dg

[inna]

229. Neither myself nor she are engaging in personal attacks.

You, on the other hand, are, and this is why your posts, as you might have noticed, are getting deleted.

I'm done reading/responding to your bullshit though, it's a complete waste. :hi:

[WolverineDG]

230. Sorry you think that facts are bullshit

:hi:

dg

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

218. Who's in charge of coordination again? The United Nations. n/t

[SidDithers]

183. Unrec...nt

Sid

[itsrobert]

194. Unreccing out of the Greatest Page

Hopefully more people will unrec this and keep if off the greatest page. Just a bunch of bullcrap bitching that the people of Haiti do not need right now.

[inna]

198. -1 to you, +1 (and back to the GP) to the OP.

[itsrobert]

199. Fine with me

You are free to your opinion. No matter how warped it is.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

219. Despite the fact that the story was inaccurate?

[G_j]

213. suddenly the military can do wrong, I don't know about Haiti

but being brow beat into not questioning the military doesn't work for me.


guess we forgot Iraq already

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

220. Considering how the two situations aren't remotely comparable...

[G_j]

225. there is one common denominator

the Pentagon

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

251. Yes, and...? I'm wondering how that's useful in understanding how the relief effort is taking shape

If you wouldn't mind explaining...?

[sl8]

227. Maybe both sides are correct, from their respective points of view?

If Amy Goodman says that she didn't feel the need for additional security forces, I tend to believe her.

The folks at the food distribution point that were overrun by a gang this past week probably felt the need for more security forces.

Maybe the folks distributing food, who are in possession of a lot of food, need a lot more security than does Amy Goodman.

[nadinbrzezinski]

234. DING, DING. DING. DING we got a winnnah

[Robb]

240. Oh crap...you've absolutely nailed it.

Well put. :D

[uppityperson]

242. Sounds like a very reasonable thought. Those distributing food felt they needed the security, AG not

so much

[Dappleganger]

248. And had she been reporting from those

distribution centers who were becoming overrun, her opinion may have been very different. Once again, she could not possibly see what was going on in those areas, ALL of it in only ONE week's period of time. There is so much disorder and so many variables that all of the reporting coming out of there at THIS point in time needs to be taken in a huge degree of skepticism (and that goes for aid being given by the US as well as foreign).

[Kaleva]

252. Interesting way to look at it!

[inna]

243. back to less than 5?

wow, that's pretty fucked up.

[uppityperson]

249. What is fucked up, that people are unreccing an inaccurate story? Yeah, we're odd that way