Why focus on Security Rather than Helping Haitians?

[maryf]

PLEASE go to the link, I had to edit and the article should be read in its entirety...hope its not a duplicate...eh, worth a repeat if it is...

Slate

FOREIGNERS
Why Did We Focus on Securing Haiti Rather Than Helping Haitians?
Here are two possibilities, neither of them flattering.
By Ben Ehrenreich
Posted Thursday, Jan. 21, 2010, at 1:39 PM ET

By the weekend, it was clear that something perverse was going on in Haiti, something savage and bestial in its lack of concern for human life. I'm not talking about the earthquake, and certainly not about the so-called "looting," which I prefer to think of as the autonomously organized distribution of unjustly hoarded goods. I'm talking about the U.S. relief effort.

For two days after the quake, despite almost unimaginable destruction, there were reasons to be optimistic. With a few notable exceptions—Pat Robertson and David Brooks among them—Americans reacted with extraordinary and unhesitating generosity of spirit and of purse. Port-au-Prince is not much farther from Washington, D.C., than, say, New Orleans, and the current president of the United States, unlike his predecessor, was quick to react to catastrophe. Taking advantage of "our unique capacity to project power around the world," President Barack Obama pledged abundant aid and 10,000 troops.

Troops? Port-au-Prince had been leveled by an earthquake, not a barbarian invasion, but, OK, troops. Maybe they could put down their rifles and, you know, carry stuff, make themselves useful. At least they could get there soon: The naval base at Guantanamo was barely 200 miles away.

<snip>

The TV networks and major papers gamely played along. Forget hunger, dehydration, gangrene, septicemia—the real concern was "the security situation," the possibility of chaos, violence, looting. Never mind that the overwhelming majority of on-the-ground accounts from people who did not have to answer to editors described Haitians taking care of one another, digging through rubble with their bare hands, caring for injured loved ones—and strangers—in the absence of outside help. Even the evidence of "looting" documented something that looked more like mutual aid: The photograph that accompanied a Sunday New York Times article reporting "pockets of violence and anarchy" showed men standing atop the ruins of a store, tossing supplies to the gathered crowd.

The guiding assumption, though, was that Haitian society was on the very edge of dissolving into savagery. Suffering from "progress-resistant cultural influences" (that's David Brooks finding a polite way to call black people primitive), Haitians were expected to devour one another and, like wounded dogs, to snap at the hands that fed them. As much as any logistical bottleneck, the mania for security slowed the distribution of aid.

<snip>

The much-feared descent into anarchy stubbornly refused to materialize. "It is calm at this time," Lt. Gen. Ken Keen, deputy commander of the U.S. Southern Command, admitted to the AP on Monday. "Those who live and work here … tell me that the level of violence that we see right now is below pre-earthquake levels." He announced that four—four, in a city of more than 2 million—aid-distribu tion points had been set up on the sixth day of the crisis.


But the danger of hunger-crazed mobs never came up after the 2004 Pacific tsunami, and no one mentions security when tornados and floods wipe out swaths of the American Midwest. This suggests two possibilities, neither of them flattering. The first is that the administration had strategic reasons for sending 10,000 troops that had little to do with disaster relief. This is the explanation favored by the Latin American left and, given the United States' history of invasion and occupation in Haiti (and in the Dominican Republic and Cuba and Nicaragua and Grenada and Panama), it is difficult to dismiss. Only time will tell what "reconstruction" means.

Another answer lies closer to home. New Orleans and Port-au-Prince have one obvious thing in common: The majority of both cities' residents are black and poor. White people who are not poor have been known, when confronted with black people who are, to start locking their car doors and muttering about their security. It doesn't matter what color our president is. Even when it is ostensibly doing good, the U.S. government can be racist, and, in an entirely civil and bureaucratic fashion, savagely cruel.
Ben Ehrenreich, a journalist and novelist based in Los Angeles, is the author of The Suitors. He reported from Haiti in 2006 for L.A. Weekly.

Article URL: http://www.slate.com/id/2242078/

[dkf]

1. I thought the troops were there to provide aid and not provide security.

This article gets it all wrong. What shoddy reporting

[maryf]

11. Wait until Doctors without Borders

Makes its statements...Did you go to the link and read the whole thing? My editting might be affecting your reading...

[dkf]

14. I did read the article and it goes opposite of the early reports I heard.

They said doctors were leaving because there was no security and there was no security because the military was there NOT to provide security but to distribute aid only.

That report pissed me off because I thought they should do both. But the military was told to not engage the public.

Now you say they were ONLY there for security.

One of these reports is incorrect.

[maryf]

16. Not ONLY for security...

but its a top priority...

[dkf]

18. Early reports said it was NO priority. They weren't allowed to provide security.

[EFerrari]

30. One team of Belgian doctors left one hospital because of security concerns

that turned out to be unfounded. Gupta reported on that one from the clinic where there was no "security" and where he worked unbothered all night.

Do you know of other instances?

At the PaP General Hospital, the staff did not leave. They stayed right there among the people and set about clearing spaces to treat patients.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. Oh you didn't hear about the US ships sitting there to keep anyone from escaping?

[TxRider]

20. And dismissed it

As the garbage it is.

[maryf]

21. Oh, but wasn't that helping?

Thanks!

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. No. They were sitting there to catch anyone who tried to leave

and come to the US illegally.

[TxRider]

46. Baloney

Of course they are going to stop anyone heading out to sea to die.


But their purpose is humanitarian aid, which they are providing the best they can in a big way.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. Where are you getting your information?

[TxRider]

50. From a wide variety of sources

But this is just simple common sense.

1) Nobody is trying to escape by boat to the U.S. 600+ miles away in the first place.

2) Doing so is suicidal, they would almost surely die at sea, and stopping them would be saving their lives.

[maryf]

68. Let's say we post a couple? nt

[TxRider]

128. Ok

And here's a the first doctor who showed up at the abandoned hospital (500m from the palace) with his wife and father in law (both doctors) and 2 nurses and got down to work there.

He has an online journal he's updated on what has been happening there.

http://www.ultrawellness.com/blog


Here's a news team that flew out with the 82nd airborne. They started arriving Thursday and Friday, and got orders to set up a forward base Saturday the 16th at the palace to distribute food and water there.

http://www.wral.com/news/national_world/world/haiti/blog/6816684/?s=40


That could start you going.

[EFerrari]

135. Except by his own acount, he wasn't the first doctor at the hospital.

You might want to reread what he says in the first link about him that you posted. Dr. Lyon was already there.

"The first day we arrived at the abandoned hospital save for Dr. Lassegue and Mrs. Thompson, the director of the General Hospital and his administrator. Our small group of seven, the first to arrive, built five operating rooms and with the help of a few other small groups who arrived the next day, we created a functional, if primitive, surgical hospital. We have now seen every one of the 1000 or so patients that were strewn about the hospital grounds under the hot sun, amidst flies and maggots, and we have operated on about 200 of them."

Dr. Lyon, the doc interviewed by Goodman, is the director and he was already there.

[TxRider]

142. Umm...

"Dr. Lassegue and Mrs. Thompson, the director of the General Hospital and his administrator"

"Dr. Lyon, the doc interviewed by Goodman, is the director and he was already there."

That would tend to state that Dr. Lassegue is the director, and Mrs. Thompson is his administrator.

Watch this video...

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6108550n&tag=related;photovideo


Dr. Lyons bio...

Dr. Lyon received his MD from Harvard Medical School in 2003 and completed residency training in Internal Medicine at Brigham and Women's Hospital in 2007. He is currently a hospitalist on the faculty of Brigham and Women's Hospital, an Associate Physician at the Division of Global Health Equity and an Instructor in Medicine at Harvard Medical School. Dr. Lyon is also an editor of the journal of Health and Human Rights.


And his first e-mail, apparently on the 17th, about his first 12 hours in the city since arriving. The day CBS aired the video from the hospital on 60 minutes...

Reached by this link....

"An email from Dr. Evan Lyon:
In an email sent very early this morning, Dr. Evan Lyon documented his reaction to the catastrophe in Port-au-Prince.

Read more about his first twelve hours in the city....

http://standwithhaiti.org/haiti/news-entry/the-city-is-changed-forever-evan-lyon/


So the only people there were the director and his administrator in an empty hospital. Dr Hyman and his small team set up operations by flashlight.

Dr Lyons came on a later plane as backup.

[EFerrari]

146. I checked this out and you're right. Evan Lyon didn't get there until Sunday.

http://www.radiorounds.org/?p=239

[Hannah Bell]

163. haitians in fact do go to the us in small boats. you haven't been paying attention.

[TxRider]

187. And thousands die a horrible death at sea doing so.

In case you haven't been paying attention.

Now if they were going to Cuba 50 miles away it might be different, but Cuba is likely stopping them as well.

600+ miles to the U.S. in a crowded rowboat is far more likely suicide.

[Hannah Bell]

191. i didn't deny it. but they do go. your contention was, they didn't.

"Nobody is trying to escape by boat to the U.S. 600+ miles away in the first place."

The first reports of Haitians' arriving in the United States, by boat and without documentation, occurred in 1972. Between 1972 and 1981, the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) reported more than 55,000 Haitian "boat people" arrived in Florida. The INS estimated that because as many as half of the arrivals escaped detection, the actual number of boat people may have exceeded 100,000. An unknown number of Haitians are reported to have died during their attempts to reach the United States by sea.

http://countrystudies.us/haiti/22.htm

[TxRider]

195. My contention was I haven't seen any trying to since the earthquake

[Hannah Bell]

202. well, they reportedly are. & you didn't specify a time frame anyway.

"A mass exodus in tiny boats began yesterday - fuelling fears thousands could perish in the seas around Haiti.

Families dying of thirst and hunger EIGHT DAYS after the Caribbean disaster killed 200,000 - five of them feared to be Brits - scrambled aboard leaky tubs in a final desperate gamble.

US troops rushed in vain to seal off the capital's wrecked port as the wretched armada set sail - destination America."

Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2816149/Haitian-families-exodus-from-earthquake-hell.html#ixzz0dfoGBnri

[maryf]

62. I'm sorry, I knew what you meant...

I should use the sarcasm tag... :)

[Hannah Bell]

162. uh, no, one of the reasons given for the slow pace of us aid was that they were waiting for troops

to land to provide "security". so there wouldn't be big riots when they handed out the food, etc.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stray cat]

3. Without security the strong or cruel brutalize the weak - would you give corporations free reign

because they are basically kind and considerate.

[EFerrari]

26. That is exactly what our government has done in Haiti. n/t

[stray cat]

4. Naive if one thinks all people are basically kind and good to all - particularly without laws

[maryf]

9. If you read the article...

You would see that this is the exact point made...

[TxRider]

23. I did read the article

And it very poorly written and factually incorrect.

You don't even have to get past the first few paragraphs.

"The Cubans, at least, would show up quickly. It wasn't until Friday, three days after the quake, that the "supercarrier" USS Carl Vinson, arrived—and promptly ran out of supplies. "We have communications, we have some command and control, but we don't have much relief supplies to offer," admitted Rear Adm. Ted Branch. So what were they doing there?"

First, the Cubans had 450 people there running a mobile hospital before the quake, and rode it out, and started working again immediately afterward. They didn't need to show up quickly as they were already there.

Second the USS Carl Vinson, after running out of supplies, immediately sent helicopters, including the extra ones it picked up on it's way, to Guantanamo Bay to pick up more supplies there and ferry them back as U.S. military planes landed them at Guantanamo. The same Guantanamo the author said is only 200 miles away and doing nothing in the previous paragraph.

The rest of the article is similarly as incorrect, and simply builds to the authors final conclusion, that the U.S. response has been cruel and racist.

[maryf]

17. Exactly what the elite want all to believe, nt.

"human nature" is a social construct often used to defend oppression...

[babylonsister]

5. Did you see some of the locals running around with machetes, and not

afraid to use them? I'd say security was necessary.

[EFerrari]

27. No, I didn't see that. I saw a few instances of looting.

The only killing I've seen is two teenagers who got shot in the back for picking up a few bags of rice that fell off a truck.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. You mean you MISSED the machete wileding gang that ran the ICRC

team out of Cite-Soleil?

There were incidents... and there are places everywhere in the world that are more dangerous than others.

Security comes in with any disaster... like it or not.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

133. Quite true.

[WolverineDG]

31. Children are disappearing from hospitals

& on the Hope for Haiti program, Anderson Cooper spoke with the director of an orphanage that had to fight a group of armed bandits trying to break into the orphanage.

But the Anti-US brigade insists there is no need for security. None whatsoever. Nope.

dg

[Name removed]

38. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbolink]

104. "Anti-US Brigade"

:rofl:

VEry nice job imitating the RW meme of some of us being "unpatriotic".

Congrats on learning it well from them. It helps the cause of peace so much.

[EFerrari]

106. Yeah. apparently merely observing the US policy failures on the ground

= unAmerican.

Who knew Americans were just supposed to write checks and stfu?

[bobbolink]

108. Seems like this could possibly be a good use for a Department Of Peace.

But, whadda *I* know... :shrug:

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

110. With all due respect

most folks have no problem with observing U.S. policy failures, but you've misrepresented facts about this relief effort on numerous threads and when you were called out on it, you simply placed the people who criticized you on ignore and went right on repeating those untruths.

Secondly, you have a track record of being extremely, extremely critical of the United States, which is fine, don't get me wrong, but it's a track record that doesn't seem to be balanced by a willingness to praise the United States when it does things that are actually positive in the world. Every little move our government makes seems to be part of some grand master plan to dominate the rest of the hemisphere in your eyes. Understandably, people are very put off by that. Perhaps if you simply dropped your shields and talked openly about this it could clear up some of the misconceptions people have about you...?

[WolverineDG]

111. You're not "observing" "failures"

you're repeatedly discarding facts that don't support your views & continuing to spread lies that have already been debunked.

Keep on truckin'

dg

[EFerrari]

116. Well, no.

Trying to make this about me won't stem the tide of observation and rightful criticism that is coming the way of this US operation. That is already here, actually.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WolverineDG]

181. I don't find that lying, exaggerating, misrepresenting &/or

ignoring inconvenient facts helps the "cause of peace." Makes the people who do it no better than Faux News & those who watch it.

dg

[Hannah Bell]

166. i saw one clip of 6 kids with machetes played over & over & over.

[LARED]

6. It's pretty difficult to provide food, medical treatment , etc

if there is looting, chaos, and violence all around you.

Haiti is a quasi lawless country prior to the earthquake, do you honestly think all the thugs became altruistic saints after the quake?

[maryf]

8. Did you read the article?? nt

[TxRider]

7. Why make overblown false accusations?

Ben Ehrenreich is being an idiot.

[treestar]

10. The people going in to help deserve to be reasonably safe

It should not be demanded that their lives be sacrificed or that they be put in danger. They are trying to help. We are sitting here at a keyboard.

[maryf]

12. I thought people would be applauding the obvious people helping people

aspect of this article vs. the military aspect/security aspect...what will folks be like when security over help rules again within our borders, as it did in New Orleans? Remember the rants here against the racism during that time?

[TxRider]

19. Then don't make the title of the post

An accusation that the military is focusing on security rather than helping the people.

As if it is an either/or choice or a true statement.

The whole point of the linked article is an accusation that the U.S. response in Haiti is both cruel and racist. Stated clearly in the summary at the end of the article.


"New Orleans and Port-au-Prince have one obvious thing in common: The majority of both cities' residents are black and poor. White people who are not poor have been known, when confronted with black people who are, to start locking their car doors and muttering about their security. It doesn't matter what color our president is. Even when it is ostensibly doing good, the U.S. government can be racist, and, in an entirely civil and bureaucratic fashion, savagely cruel."


Taking all the confusion, chaos, lack of coordination and communication, the time it takes to get those issues tackled and the rest of the fully expected issues when trying to make a relief effort of such massive scale appear out of thin air and ascribing racist or political evil intentions to them is a cheap shot in my opinion.

[maryf]

22. I used the title the author used

and I do think the military were there to stop the "chaos" that did not ensue...very little violence has occurred...

[TxRider]

25. And you and the author are incorrect.

They were there because they can move more supplies into the country than anyone else.

And they have done exactly that.

[EFerrari]

28. LOL. Everyone is incorrect but the Pentagon according to you.

If the best we can do it take 8 days to BEGIN to move a meaningful amount of aid into the capitol only because we had to militarize the mission first, that's a pretty bad show all around.

[TxRider]

37. Not at all

The U.N. some NGO's and red cross are all quite correct as well.

That you seem to think 300+ distribution points to feed and provide water for 2.5 million people, fuel for transporting supplies to those points and manpower to do this can happen spontaneously in a destroyed island without electricity, fuel or infrastructure in under a week is a bad show.

It shows complete lack of understanding of the scale of the problem.

[WolverineDG]

33. So who got the airport back up & running? The Tooth Fairy? nt

[WolverineDG]

32. There you go again

trying to focus on facts & logic.

Keep up the good work, maybe one day it will sink in.

dg

[bobbolink]

105. Damned right! Those tanks on the streets of NOLA helped bring about order so VERY well.

:silly:

[MiniMe]

15. So the author reported from Haiti in 2006, is he there now?

The airport needed to be fixed and the port needed to be fixed. Without the US doing those things, supplies wouldn't be there now. And you have to provide security to the rescue crews. Unfortunately, without security, the relief supplies would go to the fittest and strongest, not those who need it most. The roads from the airport and the port were closed by debris, somebody had to clean it up. Unfortunately, the prisons were emptied during the quake because of the quake damage. There were so many who were injured and killed, that the Haitian police couldn't control things. To me, the security isn't about the color of the people, it is about the desperation of the people.

[EFerrari]

29. Except that isn't really the situation.

When the US took control of the airport, they prioritized military flights over aid flights during the window of opportunity to save the most lives. Many entities involved protested that.

There is a middle way between turning away aid flights at the airport and enabling a free for all. That middle way was not found.

The prison we have heard so much about held prisoners about 80% of which had not even been charged with a crime and many of whom were political prisoners, not rapists and murderers.

The people have been desperate and overwhelmingly peaceful and cooperative.

In addition, the US rescue effort was largely confined to the capitol, not out in the provinces where the epicenter of the quake was as prioritizing security has prevented rescue teams or aid from getting very far from PaP. Or, it had by Day 9.

[TxRider]

40. Really

"When the US took control of the airport, they prioritized military flights over aid flights during the window of opportunity to save the most lives. Many entities involved protested that.

There is a middle way between turning away aid flights at the airport and enabling a free for all. That middle way was not found."

Actually that middle way was found, and you have shown zero evidence it wasn't. About 25% were military flights, every single one also bringing aid supplies.

The 82nd airborne plane for example, had to circle for 5+ hours, and refuel in flight, waiting for a slot to land.

The problem wasn't getting flights and supplies landed and unloaded.

The problem was no fuel for any trucks that weren't damaged in the quake, and no ability to move goods from the airport once unloaded off the planes due to no fuel, blocked roads, lack of communications infrastructure.

Surprisingly, exactly what the military spent the next few days using 3000 men and heavy lift equipment to tackle.

[EFerrari]

41. That's your story. Stick with it. n/t

[EFerrari]

52. I have *zip* interest in arguing with repetitive Pentagon talking points.

May want to save it for a more receptive audience.

[TxRider]

53. Or apparently U.N., Red Cross, Partners in health...

Reports..

Because you have no facts to argue against the reality of the situation.

[EFerrari]

55. The Red Cross ran out of supplies 36 hours into the situation.

And I've already posted the interview with the director of Partners in Health about five times.

But, here it is again, the day the Marines showed up with their weapons and nothing else 8 days into this disaster:

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/20/devastated_port_au_prince_hospital_struggles


You might also go read Laura Flanders, Thom Hartmann, The Black Commentator, Randall Robinson, MSF, The Nation, MotherJones. There have been plenty of posts to this board documenting this problem. If you are interested in this situation and not just in covering Robert Gates' @ss, you'd know about them already. :hi:

[TxRider]

61. Ahh the interview.

Where he says the troops are needed and helping.

Where they showed up because they were asked to show up.

The doctor in fact, says "We need some crowd control so that the patients are not kept from having access."

Note when asked if the soldiers had brought supplies, he said, "not yet". Which says he expects them to, but they had only just showed up after being asked by the doctors, and waiting on permission from the Minister of Health's office to be able to help.

And if you follow up, gain more information, the supplies did come, in a big way, as evidenced by the daily blog of the partners in health doctor that was first on scene. Within 24 hours of contacting the military and asking for help, and getting permission from the Haitian government. Supplies flooded in.


Here is an excerpt from the blog of the first doctor to show up at that abandoned hospital.

"After the setback from the second quake, yesterday we made progress. Claire Pierre and I and Dr. Benjamin from Mount Sinai, met with the Minister of Health and the head of disaster relief. There are poor communication systems all across the country, most destroyed by the quake, with email or cell service often down. So we drove to their new headquarters in an automotive parts building to explain the needs of the patients and hospital. I have been coordinating with General Keen and Colonel Gibson and the Joint Task Force Surgeon, Dr. Ellison, to get support from the military for medical evacuation and logistics and support. I explained to the minister that the military was willing to give their full support but needed a helicopter-landing zone near the hospital and approval for full logistical support for humanitarian aid.

I pulled out my iPhone and gave the General's email address to the Minister of Health and he composed an email giving him full permission to help. I read the email and wept with relief, knowing we could save hundreds more patients."

And the result?

"But yesterday was a watershed. There were no drapes, supplies, gloves, masks, and surgical bandages when we started in the morning two days ago. But yesterday we received a flood of supplies and people."

Including military evacuating the most critical patients and flying them out to the hospital ship as he asked for. As evidenced by the daily blog of another reporter daily blogging riding along with the 82nd airborne watching them work.

Or as the doctor put it...

"The next morning a man came in with a traumatic head wound and with the new team from Mount Sinai headed by Michael Marin, he had 3 intravenous lines started and his head wound covered and then we quickly transferred him to the waiting FLA (front line ambulances) from the 82nd airborne. I jumped in the back of the dark, hot sweatbox of the ambulance carrying 4 stretchers and loaded with patients, continued to help him breathe with an ambu-bag. We made our way 500 yards to the Palace grounds and offloaded him to the helicopter. I hung his intravenous fluids on a carabineer and kneeled over another patient trying to hold on the door as the helicopter lifted off and whisked us off for the 5-minute flight to the USS Comfort hospital ship."

"After making a quick assessment of the ships surgical capabilities, I jumped back on the chopper, a bag of peanut covered M&M's in my pocket, given to me by a sailor who thought I looked hungry."

Yup the military is bringing zero to the equation.

Guess Amy wasn't paying attention to the palace grounds 500yds away, where the 82nd was feeding a growing tent city of 50,000 people. There are however pics of it all over the net.

[EFerrari]

82. You can't rewrite history no matter how hard you try.

:)

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

89. The only one I see attempting to do that is you...

[maryf]

125. Seems your posts are general statements? without much substance?

any articles?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

157. I prefer to articulate my arguments myself

rather than fill the board with unnecessary copy and pastes.

Was there something in particular you were seeking a source to? If so, I'll provide one. If not, I'm not going to waste the space.

[maryf]

158. who was it who said

"He who defends himself has a fool as a client and an ass as a lawyer?" Not saying that you are either, but a lack of backing makes your posts insubstantial, especially as you insist I give more backing? Another saying "what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander"

[TxRider]

130. I don't need to rewrite anything

There were reporters that flew out of the U.S. with the 82nd on Thursday/Friday, landing and regrouping on the 15th, and delivered food and water with them starting on Sat morning the 16th 500m down the road from the hospital Dr. Hyman was working at.

You can read their ordeal of packing up, flying out, getting their orders, packing up aid, landing at the palace, handing out food and water with medics delivering aid.

No luxury at this country club

By Bryan Mims

Jan. 16, 2010

Members of the 82nd Airborne have set up their forward operating base outside of the Haitian capital at the Petionville Club, a country club that boasts the only golf course (a 9-hole course) in all of Haiti.

Soldiers here distributed 2,000 humanitarian MRE's – meals ready to eat – Saturday to locals gathered on the hillside.

Children were put in the front of the line. Soldiers were there to keep everything orderly. For the most part, they were – but they were understandably eager to get their hands on food.

It was quite an emotional scene: soldiers handing boxes of food to little boys and girls, many of them with precious smiles on their faces. One little girl even approached a couple of us reporters and said "Thank you." Of course, they were thankful to all the soldiers.

As the sun set, the hundreds of people gathered on the hillside were whipped into a spiritual froth by a local pastor. He thanked Jesus for all of the food and water...

http://www.wral.com/news/national_world/world/haiti/blog/6816684/?s=40

[Hannah Bell]

165. DR. EVAN LYON:

This question of security and the rumors of security and the racism behind the idea of security has been our major block to getting aid in. The US military has promised us for several days to bring in—to bring in machinery, but they’ve been listening to this idea that things are insecure, and so we don’t have supplies.


I’m living here in the neighborhood with a friend. I’m staying with some of my Haitian doctor colleagues. We’ve been circulating on the roads to 1:00 and 2:00 in the morning, moving patients, moving supplies, trying to get our work done. There is no security. The UN is not out. The US is not out. The Haitian police are not able to be out. But there’s also no insecurity. I don’t know if you guys were out late last night, but you can hear a pin drop in this city. It’s a peaceful place. There is no war. There is no crisis except the suffering that’s ongoing.


The concern for militarization, the concern for occupation is very real. There is capacity that we don’t have that the military will help us with, and that is urgently needed, because we’re losing patients minute to minute. But the first that listeners need to understand is that there is no insecurity here. There has not been, and I expect there will not be.

DR. EVAN LYON: That was not a mandate from anybody, but we do—we do need crowd control. There’s no insecurity. We need some crowd control so that the patients are not kept from having access.


To this point, the military has not been here. They showed up about half an hour ago for the first time.


This is the main General Hospital for the country. This is the main academic hospital for the country. This is the most important medical center in Haiti. It has been given very slow capacity. We have been improvising for the last four days on the ground with the Ministry of Health, under the direction of the Haitian director, and with our own meager capacity. The international volunteers are doing good work, but this place has been largely ignored. You see the infrastructure as it’s been destroyed.


And in terms of supplies, in terms of surgeons, in terms of aid relief, the response has been incredibly slow. There are teams of surgeons that have been sent to places that were, quote, “more secure," that have ten or twenty doctors and ten patients. We have a thousand people on this campus that are triaged and ready for surgery, but we only have four working ORs without anesthesia and without pain medications. And we’re still struggling to get ourselves up to twenty-four-hour care.

[bobbolink]

176. Please do NOT disturb their erroneous opinions with your FACTS.

You notice just how much attention your fact-bringing receives.

That silence speaks volumes.

Thanks for trying to bring some sanity.

[TxRider]

204. And your point is?

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. A nuke went off in that city

plain and simple. You think we would not have run out of supplies in the LA Basin either? Clueless...

Hell bad me. I ran out of supplies in a few MCIs too... and it took a little time to get them in.

<-------- Bad, bad paramedic. you ran out of gear since shit, that never ever happens.

:sarcasm:

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. Wrong and you keep repeating this

the military flights that were prioritized were the Forward Air Controllers kind of needed to operate this place. The Planes with the Cargo Loading capacity, again so you can UNLOAD the damn things... and of course one company of the 82nd for perimeter security.

The rest of the flights were rescue, medical and supplies...

By the way... you do know the Mexican AF also brought some plane unloaders because theere were NONE.

Keep repeating that mantra by the way...

Oh and if the US prioritized military personnel, did I imagine the 55 rescue teams? What about the three field hospitals? Now more by the way.

Oh and I realize that you have me on ignore, but this is to answer the idiocy any more... clueless.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

182. Do you have a non biased link that supports what you are saying?

[WillowTree]

24. "autonomously organized distribution of unjustly hoarded goods"

I may puke.

[Waiting For Everyman]

34. It's hard to justify aid coming in, and then sitting in the airport for days.

Nobody has been able to justify that. Sanjay Gupta had to go there and get some himself... and MIRACULOUSLY, that was POSSIBLE! Wow! How about that? He drove over there, and drove it back to a hospital!!!

Now the relevant point is, why he had to go and do that himself, and then suddenly so much more aid starting going out to "distribution points" after that.

Was our military unable to drive? Was the UN unable to drive? Were the NGOs unable to drive?

Maybe we should let reporters run disaster relief, then.

I'm not faulting our military, I'm faulting whoever's in charge of dictating the obvious standstill that existed all last week. Obviously, it was NOT unavoidable, that's clearly nonsense. And yes, people did die because of it...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100120/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cb_haiti_fighting_for_lives

And... don't let the schmexperts bother you, maryf - they've disrupted every thread about Haiti since it happened.

[TxRider]

42. It's terribly simple to justify

The first people in were a crack team whose sole specialty is bringing up a highly efficient airfield from scratch.

The did this within 24hrs and had the maximum amount of aid landing and unloading as humanly possible.

Now what is going to happen next, when there is no electricity, no gas stations, no fuel, blocked roads, no communication infrastructure, NGO's and even the U.N. still digging themselves out of rubble.

You guessed it, the planes will be unloading faster than it can be delivered.

So what next? You send in 3000 men, who bring ability to move the goods with them in a big way, and let them start doing their job. Setting up hundreds of distribution points and organizing from scratch a large scale distribution system.

And what do ya know? They actually did just that!

From scratch, building supply network that gets enough food and water to feed 2.5 million people from thousands of miles away to a destroyed nation up and running from ashes in under a week. And all they get is insults.

[Waiting For Everyman]

56. That "explanation" didn't address the point.

The aid came in and it sat there. The military guy who Gupta got the aid from at the airport didn't like it either, but he couldn't say what he wanted to about it.

Refusing to face that a problem exists, means that it doesn't get solved. And there's not even any valid reason for so much denial about this aid distribution issue. Adults should be able to hear criticism if something isn't working - especially when lives depend on it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. What part of heavy lift not available and distribution network

are you purposely missing?

Here is a clue... Sanjay has a SMALL vehicle and as a one man team with security he can be a little more agile... than if he had to move, I don't know one ten ton pallet.

Now you'd see how well Sanjay would be able to do this.

[Waiting For Everyman]

66. And what prevented that same bagful of aid from being delivered before he showed up?

Again... nobody can drive except Gupta?

Or is a mere bagful of life-saving supplies not worth bothering about?

That's the point. Unaddressed. The one you're "purposely missing".

Get a clue, yourself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. You want them to distirbute this

in the most inneficient manner ever?

Okie dokie... then the howling would never ever end.

[Hannah Bell]

167. so it's most efficient to wait days for heavy lift equipment v. mobilizing smaller

vehicles & bringing aid immediatetely to priority sites? like hospitals?

[TxRider]

188. The smaller mobolizing was being done.

It simply wasn't a drop in the bucket, not even a fraction of a drop.

Even the combined capacity of the heavy lift equipment and the thousands of troops that have now deployed, plus the U.N. troops there, plus the NGO's there is -still- not enough.

[Hannah Bell]

190. that's not the impression i get when reading the blogs & interviews of the docs on the ground.

i get the impression they didn't receive anything until a week into the crisis.

[TxRider]

92. Nothing

Besides nobody from that group going in and grabbing a bag like he did.

Gupta could do it, as could others, and others were doing just as he did.


Who do you expect to do it? Magic pixies that telepathically know where every aid tent in the city is and what they need before they even arrive?

Someone has to go out and find them, find out what they need, and go back and get aid. Either Gupta, or an NGO person, or a soldier. In that case it was Gupta.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

84. It actually very clearly addressed the point.

You simply didn't like the answer so you're choosing to ignore it.

[EFerrari]

85. Er, there was no need to build a supply network from scratch

when there are more NGOs per square foot in Haiti than anywhere else in the world.

You should change your user name to WhirlingDervish.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

87. Surely you realize who severely disrupted the networks that existed in Haiti pre-quake were when

relief efforts began? Or maybe you don't?

[TxRider]

118. NGO's who were already stretched before the quake

And were victims themselves.

Surely you aren't maintaining that these NGO's were prepared with enough fuel, trucks, helicopters, manpower etc. to deliver food, water and medical supplies to such a massive disaster, much less after being hit hard by the quake themselves?

ROFL..

[EFerrari]

138. Spin. There was already a network in place.

Seriously, what are you defending? Why do to the trouble to deny the obvious.

[TxRider]

145. Your serious?

You actually believe there was an intact network in place capable of handling a catastrophe of this scale?

Enough to deliver daily food, water and shelter for 3 million people?

There still isn't enough even with what's been flown in so far including military on the ground.

[EFerrari]

148. The word is "you're" . And I have to wonder why you'd go to all the trouble

to so distort what I'm saying.

What's in it for you?

I said there was a network in place and there was not only one but many. There are more NGOs in Haiti than maybe anywhere in the world.

PIH alone have not only the General Hospital but ten other clinics.

So no, there was no need to build a network from scratch. Good grief.

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. If the roads were not damaged

hospitals did not collapse or were damaged in other ways, and other little details, you'd have a point

by the way, the big one in LA will do similar damage... though for other reasons, like we're connected to a continent and shit, it will be EASIER to move things in.

Now before the quake calling an ambulance could take over four hours... to respond that is.

I am familiar, actually more than you are, with these kinds of conditions.

And no, there was no network... not a functional cooperative one...

I need some pixie dust to repair roads by snapping fingers though.

[Hannah Bell]

168. it was reported the second day out that there was "heavy traffic" and many roads were still

functional.

[TxRider]

201. Was also reported that with no electricity there was no fuel

And gas was selling for hundreds per gallon. Basically people had what was in their tank before the quake just like we do down on the gulf coast after a hurricane.

[Hannah Bell]

205. some kind of contradiction between "no fuel" & "heavy traffic," wouldn't you think?

[TxRider]

206. No

People get out in their vehicles to leave and burn the gas that's in them.

Gas stations don't tend to operate when collapsed and with no power for the pumps. They don't operate after hurricanes either, but we have the advantage of a warning and ability to fill up before they hit.

"While the Haitian capital remains devastated, anyone who managed to stash extra food, petrol or cigarettes can now get rich, quick.

"I had several cans of gasoline at home for a factory on my property and I have been selling them little by little" said Ludovic. Now the canisters he sells disappear in minutes.

"Its 400 Haitian gourdes, no haggling," he said pricing a can at around ten US dollars. Before the quake a gallon of gasoline (four liters) fetched 200 gourdes."



"On Sunday, Jan. 17, the morning she departed, Karen forwarded me a note she had received from Jared Nikkels, a CCH staff member on the ground in Haiti. Nikkels wrote about the devastation he had seen in Port-au-Prince:

I saw firsthand the destruction and loss of life and it is incredible. I cannot fully describe the scene and I am still trying to process it all myself ... Four large hospitals destroyed, and all hospitals damaged ... I saw two working gas stations but each had run out of fuel by the time we left."



And though gasoline shortages are easing a bit as things come back on line that can there are still issues..



"But problems persist bringing in diesel fuel, hobbling efforts to gear up aid distribution, Edmond Mulet, the chief United Nations official in Haiti, said in a videoconference with reporters.

Although enough food is on hand to reach many more people, only 100,000 received such aid on Thursday because of a lack of trucks and fuel, he said.

“We have the food to be distributed,” he said. “We just don’t have the vehicles.”

The United Nations needs to bring in 10,000 gallons of diesel per day from the Dominican Republic just to keep water trucks circulating, Mr. Mulet said."

[maryf]

63. Thanks!

Why don't people want to know the truth? :hi:

[Waiting For Everyman]

72. That's a good question, maryf.

:hi:

[EFerrari]

35. It's remarkable. The very same priorities that we roundly condemned

during Katrina no one wants to hear or to believe when they're implemented in Haiti.

[TxRider]

43. Because they weren't.

They were learned from and avoided here.

Some people just refuse to see it.

[EFerrari]

51. Nope.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

78. Than perhaps you should present your case? n/t

[maryf]

67. Different presidents...

same folks in charge, however...Gates still heads the military, for one...:fistbump:

[EFerrari]

79. Yep. Unless you believe Obama is a super hero

none of this can be much of a surprise.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

81. It's one thing to SAY the State Dept. and Pentagon have botched things.

It's a very different thing to prove it. Still awaiting your case.

[TxRider]

103. No Amy Goodman is the superhero

Nobody else counts, right?

[EFerrari]

141. What's the frequency, Kenneth?

[TxRider]

153. FM 92.4 MHz and 104.1 MHz and AM 1030 kHz

At least for the solar powered radios the military is handing out to Haitian survivors so they can get timely aid information.

Oh snap!

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

80. Which is relevant how, exactly? n/t

[maryf]

90. The comparison between Katrina and Haiti

has many similarities, but folks refuse to look as they believe its a critique of Obama to say so...

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

93. I'm all ears.

[maryf]

94. Be all eyes and read some articles

http://www.google.com/search?q=Haiti+and+Katrina&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

good places to start...

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

98. I would prefer you articulate your arguments yourself. Or is that asking too much?

[TxRider]

99. I'd rather

Read from people on the ground there..

http://www.ultrawellness.com/blog/haiti-beyond-horror

[maryf]

126. Thank you, great piece! Partners in Health is a fantastic outfit!

As is Doctor's without borders...

[TxRider]

132. Your welcome

He was also interviewed by CBS in the first few days.

There are also a few media hitching rides with military and NGO's reporting on their daily activities.

[Hannah Bell]

170. day 9:

It is nine days after the quake, and last night three gaunt Haitian medical students, their school destroyed, came up to me in the dark as I walked past the nursing school with 150 nurses still buried in the rubble, the smell of rotting flesh floating in the hot, heavy evening air. They have helped out for the last week at the hospital but had no food to eat and only a little water to drink. Their homes were destroyed and most of their families were dead. Yet they showed up to help. They came to me to ask if they could get a job, a way to feed themselves and what family they had left. But the hospital's personal system is not functioning yet. Our first priority has been saving lives.

I went to get them food; high-energy biscuits (dry cookies) that were dropped off by the World Food Program too feed 5000 people on the hospital campus for five days. The food has been dropped off, but is locked behind three doors and there is no clear distribution system yet. It took me two hours to get them food and then find some more food for the new group of surgeons, doctors and nurses that arrived from Children's Hospital in Boston for Partners in Health. The three medical students slept out on the ground, with home to go back to, and with food in their stomachs for the first time in a week.

[maryf]

203. Unbelievable...

The truth often is...thanks..

[EFerrari]

95. Katrina was the first time, afaik, that an American city was treated

the way the US has always treated Haiti.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

101. Please, elaborate.

[TxRider]

96. Any large scale disaster will have similarities

But objectively digging for facts shows the U.S. doing a reasonably good job here.

I don't remember there being 300 food and water distribution points set up and operating this soon after Katrina.

Or hundreds of thousands of tons and food and supplies shipped in and being delivered this soon after Katrina.

[EFerrari]

107. You're right. After a week in NOLA, the solution was to bus black people out

so that real estate could be repurposed.

Whereas in Haiti, the Coast Guard is trying to keep Haitians on that island.

That's the major difference.

[TxRider]

115. ROFL

N.O. was flooded in toxic water, leaving people there was not really an option now was it?

We gladly took them in here in Texas, where many have better lives now.

[EFerrari]

117. That's what Barbara Bush said, too.

Oh, and the public housing that has since been demolished was never flooded. But, you knew that, right?

[TxRider]

119. Yes

And I also know Katrina refugees who came to my small town, and decided to stay here. They seemed to like the place and the greater availability of jobs.

Then there's that whole above sea level advantage...

[EFerrari]

121. That doesn't speak to the unnecessary and wholesale

de-blackification of NOLA. On the other hand, maybe The Netherlands would like to relocate to Texas.

[leftstreet]

36. K&InvisibleR

Interesting article!

Thanks for posting

[maryf]

58. Thanks for reccing...

Its the people of Haiti I worry about here...

[spanone]

39. we are helpling haitians.

[madmom]

44. Why are people trying to turn Haiti into Obama's Katrina? .......

It seems to me that so many here and else where want so badly for this to be Obama's Katrina moment that they are unable or unwilling to see anything or any reason for things being the way they are. Just my observation.

[EFerrari]

57. If you want an honest answer, I have one.

Obama's response to Haiti couldn't be more different that the torture president's response to Katrina. He did not go to a birthday party. He did not eat cake and play the guitar. He got on it immediately.

But Obama is not the sum of the US response.

What happened in Katrina has been duplicated in Haiti pretty exactly because the massive structure that is our State Department and the Pentagon, that is our relationship with France and Canada and Haiti can't be turned around by one man in one year not matter how well intentioned. He didn't empty out the Pentagon leadership and neither did Hillary empty out State.

Maybe on the right, the freakers are frothing at the mouth for this to be Obama's Katrina. Those of us who support the president and who want him to succeed aren't doing that.

But if you look carefully, the response to Haiti is pretty much the same response -- and I don't think that's something this president could change on his own in the time he has had given that he's dealing with an entrenched establishment and and hundred years of US Haiti policy.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

77. With all due respect

how has the Pentagon or State Dept. botched anything with regard to this relief effort? Specifics would be greatly appreciated.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. No it is not, but you keep repeating that

perhaps if you repeat it often enough...

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Ideology... on the right it is the government cannot do anything right

on the left, in this case, it is the US cannot do anything right in the Third World...

Far right and far left are serving the same goal and they cannot see why this is so damn fucking funny.

By the way, there is a reason why the Administration is doing what it is doing and it goes beyond our shores... and these guys, on both sides, can't even fathom it.

[SidDithers]

48. Unrec...

as I'm doing to all of these idiotic articles about the humanitarian relief effort in Haiti.

Sid

[bobbolink]

65. thank you for your idiotic censorship.

[SidDithers]

69. Calling an unrec "censorship" even more idiotic...nt

Sid

[bobbolink]

74. You actually made it clear that is exactly what it is. I thank you for that idiotic assessment.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

76. You're only digging yourself in deeper, buddy.

It's pretty clearly not "censorship".

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

70. How in God's name is that "censorship"?

[whistler162]

120. Nice attempt to highjack the thread with

a whine about someones unrec!

[bobbolink]

175. You're welcome. Enjoy your false accusation. Says a lot about you.

[Robb]

197. Perhaps I can help, with a small graph.

[Kaleva]

49. unrec'd

[bobbolink]

54. WHAT??? You want us to put down our FEAR???

Whaddryu.... one of those commies?

:hug:

[maryf]

59. People helping people, not fighting...

I guess the military didn't expect that; wish more folks realized how very close we are getting to the same situation...hope folks finally learn to help each other then, thanks Bobbie! :pals:

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

75. Considering how there have been some incidents of violence

and how its wise to ensure that some semblance of order exists in the areas where massive amounts of aid are being brought, I think your comments are a bit off base. The military didn't come there to kick Haitian ass. They came because they were the best equipped to get things moving in a timely fashion.

[maryf]

91. the level of violence that we see right now is below pre-earthquake levels.

"Those who live and work here … tell me that the level of violence that we see right now is below pre-earthquake levels." He announced that four—four, in a city of more than 2 million—aid-distribution points had been set up on the sixth day of the crisis."

I wish folks would read the article before they speak...

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

97. Considering the lawlessness of the country prior to the quake

I'm not sure that's saying a lot.

Oh, and for the record? The fact that I still recognize the need for security when, say, massive amounts of equipment and supplies are being funneled into a country doesn't mean I failed to read the article. This may surprise you, but people CAN read the same articles and come away from them with entirely different opinions of the situation.

[EFerrari]

100. maryf, do you know when our rescue teams hit the ground?

A factlet I'm looking for in view of the fact that the UN called off the rescue effort yesterday. I think I read we began on Thursday but after all this reading, that could be wrong.

If you run into the start date, I'd be grateful for the info.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

102. Do you really have numerous people from this thread on ignore?

If so, this board must be pretty boring for you.

[TxRider]

114. Thursday

Teams activated Tuesday, assembled and started loading by Wednesday and flew in and deployed Thursday.

Here's one team from California's story...

"MARCH AIR RESERVE BASE, Calif. -- March Air Reserve Base became a hub for Southern California's Haiti earthquake relief effort when a team of approximately 75 U.S. Agency for International Development personnel and their rescue equipment reported to the base for transportation to Port Au Prince, Jan. 13.

The deploying personnel, who will be operating under the Office of U.S. Foreign Disaster Assistance's USAID, are members of the Los Angeles County Fire Department, as well as several doctors from Los Angeles area hospitals. The C-17 Globemaster III that is scheduled to transport the crew and their equipment to Haiti is from Travis Air Force Base, Calif.

"This is what March Field is here for," said Brig. Gen. James Melin, 452nd Air Mobility Wing commander. "We support every aspect of this country's global support, whether it be military, humanitarian relief or disaster response."

Matt Levesque, an information officer with the Los Angeles County Fire Department said the responders are all certified in urban search and rescue, with specialists including paramedics, structural engineers and experts in communications and hazardous materials.

"They are trained to help people. For them, it's a once in a lifetime opportunity to respond quickly and make an impact saving lives," Levesque said. "March's high degree of professionalism really makes the deployment go smoothly."

The USAID team was ready to deploy from Los Angeles as soon as they received official notification. They arrived at March ARB in a chain of chartered busses and semi trucks of rescue equipment and supplies. After arriving, the group held a series of briefings, then prepared their equipment for transport."



Who knows they may have even bumped a DWB plane to land... ;)

[maryf]

122. Hi, sorry to be so long, maybe as early as Wednesday...

Most the info I read indicated Thursday the 14th, but I found this article from Florida that says some went on Wednesday...hope this helps!

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/south-florida-based-soldiers-firefighters-among-first-relief-177194.html

[EFerrari]

123. Thank you very much.

:hi:

[maryf]

124. Of Course!!

Thank you for all your support! :yourock:

[nadinbrzezinski]

139. 16 hours into the incident

[EFerrari]

86. Our fear and our slavish credence to every Pentagon fax that comes our way.

:puke:

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

88. I know that SOUNDS really striking, like it gets to the heart of matters

but you've still yet to prove your case regarding the State Dept. or Pentagon.

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TxRider]

129. Interesting article

But I find the basis for many of it's claims of hidden agendas rather dubious and without sufficient evidence.

Especially in light of people on the ground having to scramble to get Haitian ministers to grant permission before troops were cleared to help them, like the doctor for Partners in Health that was trying to get the abandoned hospital supplied.

While concern long term implications of military presence are appropriate, the immediate need to supply food water and shelter asap for millions is a bit more important. And they are doing a big job there.

[maryf]

131. "the immediate need to supply food water and shelter asap

for millions is a bit more important" absolutely agree on this point.

[EFerrari]

134. Except the Haitian government is our puppet

so the argument that we have to wait for their permission to to anything is a little flimsy.

[TxRider]

136. Just reporting what the doctor with Partners in Health said

That the general couldn't come bring supplies and aid without permission from the government, and the doctors story of going to get that permission from the minister of health.

You have a problem with facts as relayed by Partners in health? Maybe he's lying.

Then there's the TV reporters who flew into Haiti with the 82nd, who blogged day by day as they came into the airport, then deployed to the Palace down the road from the hospital with 2000 meals and water to pass out as soon as they hit the ground.

Probably some of the same guys who were in the video in front of the hospital later.

[EFerrari]

137. And you're right. He did say that. But the point is,

it's not as if the Haitian government is going to deny access. They're in no position to do that.

[TxRider]

143. Point?

You have one?

Like Dr. Lyons being at the hospital, when he clearly flew in a day or two behind Dr. Hyman?

I'm struggling to see your point.

Why would anyone turn down aid and supplies? Why would the military wait for permission if they didn't need to?

[EFerrari]

147. Maybe you should reread my post.

If you are struggling. :)

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

155. Well, what I assume was once your post is now missing so forgive me for my confusion.

I'll second the other poster's question, why would Haiti turn down the aid? It's clearly needed, even if the U.S. military is playing a large role in providing it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

140. Not under international law

not that this matters to you.

If Haiti was a US Protectorate or colony you'd have a point. Last time I checked they were not.

[Hannah Bell]

171. last time i checked, the us installed preval.

after taking out aristide.

apparently we can only act unilaterally when it comes to installing or overthrowing govts.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

154. In other words, it didn't matter how the U.S. proceeded

whether they got Haitian permission first or simply rolled in and did whatever they felt like, with no regard to what Haitian officials felt was appropriate. In your eyes, we're being, what? imperialistic?, either way.

So, I've got to ask, how does the U.S. win you over on this one? If obeying the wishes of Haitian officials won't do it? I'm really lost as to what standards you're using to judge these events...

[maryf]

159. Of course.

Thanks for pointing that out. :)

[Merchant Marine]

144. Canadian Troops swarmed at food distribution point

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2479905

"We've been the lucky ones who have been able to complete the delivery," said Maj. Frederic Pruneau, 32, of Asbestos, Que. "Most of the time they have to close the truck and leave because the crowd is too massive."

US Marines move full speed ahead
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j3dQEF13BACd5wpm6sHFQrz3JoKw

Sitting on a pile of food rations, Lieutenant Michael Fee explains how the aid distribution system works.
US marines offload relief supplies and secure the area and then give the aid to the United Nations, he says. Non-governmental organizations then take charge of aid delivery while the United Nations and Canadians secure its distribution.
"It's a web of people to get the aid out," Fee complains. "It is too complicated. That's why there is this backlog."

Some marines feel sorry not to be able to distribute the supplies themselves. But there are reasons behind this order.
"If I give a woman a bottle of water and a guy shows up and hits her, I can't engage him or detain him," argues Corporal Nicolas Hefley. "I don't have the right to."

Securing the peace, post-quake
http://www.nationalpost.com/related/links/story.html?id=2448315

"All of the effort is in saving lives right now and that's as it should be. But even while you have all your attention into saving lives, you've got to be planning for a much larger security apparatus for weeks and months to come," said Kara McDonald, a Haiti expert with the Council on Foreign Relations in Washington.

The earthquake threatens to undo the fragile gains the UN force has made in recent years in providing Haiti a modicum of political stability and reducing the strength of street gangs in the most impoverished Port-au-Prince slums.

Violence and looting hampering rescue effort
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2445160

"Our biggest problem is insecurity. Yesterday they tried to hijack some of our trucks. Today we were barely able to work in some places because of that," said Delfin Antonio Rodriguez, Civil Defense chief and rescue commander for the Dominican Republic.
"There's looting and people with guns out there, because this country is very poor and people are desperate."

[EFerrari]

149. You guys are hilarious. Why are we only getting these dire reports

from the Pentagon?

Damn, I feel the ghost of Donald Rumsfeld in the room.

[Merchant Marine]

151. Three of those articles are from a canadian newspaper

It should be obvious to you that crowd control is needed for food distribution.

I've read multiple reports of crowds on the verge of riot driving off food deliveries from canadian, sri lankan and brazilian troops.

Hell the airborne has been dealing with riots in the refugee camps when they try to hand out vouchers for aid. They're facing a massive problem with setting up a fair and efficient distribution system.

[EFerrari]

152. I hope the people on the ground stay safe.

This clusterf$ck is not their fault.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

156. Well, I think we can all agree there. However, I'm left wondering if you're still disregarding

the evidence Merchant Marine was kind enough to provide us? And if so, why?

[TxRider]

160. It seems rather touch and go

No dangerous riots yet but as tent cities grow so does the potential.

The 82nd supposedly ceased handing out food for a while due to problems.

The commanding officer is looking for private NGO's to take over the military distribution points. He says food distribution cannot remain this way handing out daily rations, not enough men to handle the people in need this way and it's preventing them from getting outside the city and helping outlying areas.

They are trying to switch to handing out two week food supplies. And trying to get more distribution points up in more areas.

Some questionable reports appearing..

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2010/0125/1224263036790.html

[dajoki]

161. K&R

Thanks for posting this Mary!!

[maryf]

184. Thanks!

I'd like to know how far down I got in unrecs!! :hi:

[Hosnon]

164. Without security, nothing else is possible. nt.

[EFerrari]

172. There was no war in Haiti. There was an earthquake.

[Hosnon]

173. War isn't the only thing that creates a need for security. nt.

[EFerrari]

174. So, how is all this focus on security working out for us?

Haitian police shoot scavengers indiscriminately
January 26, 2010 - 5:29AM


Haitian police on Monday shot indiscriminately at scavengers and looters in Port-au-Prince, hitting two in the head as post-quake security deteriorated, an AFP photographer reported.

A group of police, pushed to keep control among a desperate population after the January 12 tremor which killed or injured many of their number and destroyed the city prison, opened fire on a warehouse from a building opposite.

An AFP photographer inside the scavengers' building said two men were hit in the head, one of whom received medical attention. Two others were lying prone on the floor, one lifeless. The other was treated for a serious head wound.

A Haitian man in the street outside said he saw police pistol whip a man.

http://news.brisbanetimes.com.au/breaking-news-world/haitian-police-shoot-scavengers-indiscriminately-20100126-muu7.html

[Hosnon]

177. The title of the OP frames it as either security or aid. The two are connected in that

aid is not possible without security.

And the effectiveness of either is a separate question.

[EFerrari]

178. The two should be connected and deployed thoughtfully in tandem

even while they may be in tension with each other. That didn't happen here. ETA: there are still active posters that believe that Haitians have been taking machetes to each other when that simply hasn't been the case for the most part.

[Hosnon]

179. I agree they should be deployed together. And the international community should

be able to do that without much procedural difficulty (i.e., the "book" should have already been written).

But any suggestion that aid can be deployed before security is in place assumes human nature is better than it is.

[EFerrari]

180. Or, it's inflexible hamfistedness. We've seen reporters wander around

not only PaP but also the provinces and they've encountered no violence that I have seen, in any case. The people have been patrolling themselves for the most part. If any populace knows how to make do with little or nothing, it's Haitians.

Security is situational. It doesn't always mean automatic weapons or tanks. It's a judgment call. And I guess (obviously) I disagree with the judgment used in this situation.

[Hosnon]

183. I've seen what Americans do to each other over the Christmas toy du jour.

The cynic in me knows what could have happened had we simply started dropping aid (e.g., a few of the stronger, opportunist types would have taken it all).

Perhaps the response wasn't swift or effective enough but security is first among equals when it comes to what is needed.

[EFerrari]

185. The problem is, it's also used as a dodge.

The people of Leogane have had to wait for all this time to get any relief at all, even though they were at the epicenter. There was no excuse but "security" for no one to attend to them and most of these people were either dead, buried, wounded or trying to dig out their relatives with their hands and handtools.

All security situations are not equal. And I have to wonder how many people died in Leogane because the UN nor the US or anyone could deploy troops there when a rescue team and some medical supplies might have made a big difference. I'm sorry if I'm tiresome on this topic and promise to go do something else now. lol

[TxRider]

194. Question is

Were there any medical or rescue teams free to go there. Seems like as many as could get in country did so, and they still have more need than they all can fill. The first I have heard of an account of there being any doctors anywhere that weren't overwhelmed with wounded was yesterday.

[EFerrari]

196. There was a story here last week, maybe Thursday, about teams (edit)

being called up here in the states, kept waiting for days, and then told to go home.

ETA link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=151x7336

[TxRider]

186. From what I have seen

Many reporters sole goal in Haiti was to go out looking for any sensational violence to report back home. And some were able to find it in a few places.

Meanwhile the military was reporting no security issues, as they spread out from the airport finding and securing landing zones and passing out aid when they landed, setting up shop to ferry more aid to the locations and doing a good job. Even Sean Penn after staying with the 82nd Airborne was quite moved by their efforts.

Since then the distribution points they set up have attracted tent cities, estimated to have grown to over 100,000 at the distribution point by the Palace/hospital, that is only now starting to become a security issue.

The military is trying to get NGO's to take over the distribution points they have set up, so they can expand out and set up more points outside the city. They are concerned the current distribution points are becoming too crowded but the military is stretched to capacity as it is.

[EFerrari]

189. Apart from all the stuff you and I disagree on, I'm worried

about where we're getting bodies to put on the ground in Haiti.

We know that a lot of folks have been deployed too many times to combat zones. Being deployed to a disaster zone of this magnitude must be almost as traumatic except you have a better chance of coming home in one piece.

I heard or read this morning that UNICEF is asking for smaller camps than the ones that are being proposed because bigger ones are a seedbed for trouble.

[TxRider]

192. Yes

The 82nd commander is calling for it too.

But the Haitians are congregating to their drop points so fast, they are now at capacity keeping them fed and have no free resources to open up more camps.

Hopefully more troops will arrive soon, from U.N. nations as well as the U.S., in time to get ahead of the situation.

There just aren't enough people on the ground there to keep up yet it seems. How many people does it take for a logistics chain to unload food, move it, distribute it to feed 100 people in for one day? Ten? That would be what, 300,000 people needed?

They need to start hiring Haitians by the thousands and putting them to work, like right now.

[EFerrari]

193. Enlisting existing community networks and putting out a week's rations,

not daily ones.

Yep. This is unsustainable.

[TxRider]

198. That's what the Military is working towards

Getting two week ration packs handed out.

Getting NGO's to take over the existing distribution points.

With some success.

But with Haitian men asking every single reporter I have heard from yet for a job, I have to wonder why the U.N., WFP and even the military isn't hiring them and putting them to work for cash money.

Maybe they are and I just haven't heard yet.

[EFerrari]

199. It's really hard to see grown men begging for work.

But the thing is, US interests have never been exactly to help Haitians but to help business. And that means Bill Clinton restored Aristide over a promise about the tariff on rice. So, their ag sector went belly up and we dump our product on them. And that's just one example and Bill Clinton was one of the good guys.

This month is the 100th anniversary of our screwed up policy in Haiti.

Haiti was the jewel, the richest colony in the New World. :shrug:

[TxRider]

200. BTW

It is my understanding the 82nd airborne was diverted from deploying in Afghanistan as part of the new surge and were deployed to Haiti instead, and will be going on to Afghanistan when this is done. First deployment for many of the soldiers.

Got to be a huge life changing experience for all those young kids. Certainly would have been for me at that age.

I wonder if they will send the Marines now leaving Iraq to Haiti?

[fascisthunter]

169. because meatheads are in charge