I am not surprised it has come to this. Flying while Jewish.

[pepperbear]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703699204575016914233645050.html?mod=WSJ_WSJ_US_News_5

A US Airways Group Inc. flight was diverted after an Orthodox Jewish teenager began praying and using a box which contains verses, setting off concerns among skittish crew members.

*snip*

Just before 9 a.m. EST, the crew on a US Airways Express flight--operated by Republic Airways Holdings Inc.'s Chautauqua Airlines and bound from New York's LaGuardia Airport to Louisville, Ky.--decided to land in Philadelphia to address their concerns. J.J. Klaver, a special agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, said the 17-year-old unveiled a phylactery, a leather box worn during certain Jewish services and also known as a tefillin, early in the flight. The teen was accompanied by his 16-year-old sister.

I am speechless.

[cali]

1. why? I think it was stupid of the kid not to clear his

intention to pray in this manner with the flight crew.

[Skittles]

2. yup

like it or not, you have to take reasonable measures on airplanes now to avoid being perceived strangely - it is sad that the entire world has to jump through hoops because some people on this earth do not know how to behave but it is what it is

[noamnety]

7. Why are you blaming the victim of bigotry instead of the bigots?

Maybe this is like Jordan Miles who the cops just beat up for walking while black. Was it stupid for him to assume he had the same rights in public as anyone else? Knowing that cops are racist, should he have called the police station ahead of time to inform them that he was a black teenager and was going to walk to his grandma's house - nobody should panic?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

9. I am sure the "victim" here would have been cool with it...

if some dude started theatrically chatting with allah and this was the crew response,

[noamnety]

13. Why the scare quotes around "victim"?

Why the assumption that he's a bigot? and why the implication that the flight crew is justified acting in a bigoted way, so long as their target has prejudices as well?

[invictus]

21. +1

[harkadog]

130. Blame the victim. Hmmm, I wonder why?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

144. getting kicked off the plane for making a scene doesn't make you a victim

[harkadog]

148. Following your religious beliefs is creating a "scene"?

He wasn't interfering with anyone. I have been on flights and seen orthodox Jews praying. No big deal. You have another agenda here which is pretty obvious.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

149. a public nuisance is a public nuisance

My agenda is secularism,

[harkadog]

152. Religion is now a public nuisance

Yes we all know what your agenda is.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

155. When you religion requires screaming, flailing and props in a public space

it is a nuisance.

[harkadog]

156. Of course none of that took place

You apparently know nothing about Jewish religious practices. I suspect willful ignorance instead of just ignorance.

[cali]

11. the kid strapped little boxes to his hand and head on an airplane

in this day and age, people are wary of anything out of the ordinary on a plane.

[noamnety]

12. In this day and age people are still wary of black people walking in public.

Who's fault is that? Who's responsibility is it to check themselves?

[stray cat]

16. Would it change your mind if he had a knive out or (but was going to use it for something peaceful)

[noamnety]

28. Yes, if he had a prohibited weapon on a plane I would feel differently.

I would expect the crew to handle it by peacefully requesting that he hand the knife over to them. If he handed it over without incident, there shouldn't be any reason to divert the flight.

Likewise, if he was doing something the crew didn't understand like strapping a prayer box on, I would expect the crew to ask him what was up, not freak out huddling in the corner. If they had time to land a plane, surely they had time to ask "So, what's that thing there?"

As for people panicking because of prayer, I haven't yet seen a plane that could be brought down by praying. People need to recognize that praying isn't itself a threat.

[tavalon]

103. Last I checked, nail clippers are prohibited "weapons"

I'm really quite done with the silliness that surrounds air travel.

[noamnety]

123. Well, I'm not afraid of someone with nail clippers.

And I should clarify knife, I guess the way that was phrased, I'm thinking big knife, but a small pocket knife, heck I used to carry one to school in junior high - we all did.

My daughter got knitting needles confiscated once. But pencils are okay. Damned if I can understand the difference.

[tavalon]

125. Here's the thing

The TSA isn't really there to make you safer, they are there to make you think you are safer. That's why few of these rules actually make any real sense. It's a show. The rubes have become very, very scared though, because the show is very, very convincing to them. So, they freak at the slightest unusual anything.

[KittyWampus]

24. there is a difference between being a black person and being a person of any color engaging

in behavior outside the norm.

The behavior and accouterments exhibited by this individual was outside the norm.

It is not outside the norm in certain areas of Brooklyn. But in general, it was definitely unexpected. I feel for the fellow but do think he'd have been advised to be more aware of others around him.

[tavalon]

105. You haven't heard of driving while black, etc.?

It's not so different at all. Culturally sensitive is a subset of racially sensitive and the ugly American could do with quite a bit more of both.

[montanto]

66. I'm still trying to find the black guy in this story.

[noamnety]

67. It was a reference to Jordan Miles

another case in the news this week of authorities going off the deep end because not everyone is a white christian upper middle class male.

[tavalon]

102. Best answer yet

We are so culturally insensitive in this country that we don't even know such customs. It would behoove us to get over ourselves, the sooner the better.

And we need to stop acting like scared little ninnies.

[surrealAmerican]

19. In this kid's world, what he did was completely ordinary.

He probably didn't know that the flight crew would not understand what he was doing.

[stray cat]

15. The bigot name doesn't apply if the basis for the fear is not bigotry

[noamnety]

45. In this case it applies.

A prayer isn't going to cause a plane to crash. The ONLY reason to assume someone praying is a threat is bigotry.

If they were afraid of a gadget used in the prayer, they should have asked what it was. It's not that hard. If the flight attendants opted not to ask, that's their fault. They clearly had time. I can't see any reason for them to divert the flight - unless the passenger became belligerent, but I didn't see that in the article.

[Tailormyst]

50. No sorry it is not bigotry

It wasn't the praying, it was the boxes stapped to the kid that caused an issue. Lay the blame where it belong, with the child's parents for not telling him not to strap boxes onto himself during the flight because it might cause alarm.

[tavalon]

110. It actually fits rather well

From Wikipedia:



A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.

The correct use of the term requires the elements of obstinacy, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing devotion.

The origin of the word bigot and bigoterie in English dates back to at least 1598, via Middle French, and started with the sense of "religious hypocrite". Forms of bigotry may have a related ideology or world views.



Now, if a person or persons had asked him what he was doing and he refused to explain, then there might (only might) be a reasonable fear but it doesn't appear that either happened. Perhaps it wasn't bigotry but just pansy assed fear from a bunch of scared ninnies, but it has quite the odor of bigotry.

[Tailormyst]

31. He is not a victim

The flight attendant had no idea wtf the boxes he was strapping to himself were. 99% of people would have no fucking clue what the black boxes he was strapping to his body were.

[noamnety]

46. Yes he is a victim

He was prevented from going to his destination on time because of discrimination.

He's a victim every bit as much as Raed Jarrar was when he was prevented from flying because he had arabic text on a tee shirt. The courts recognized Raed as a victim of illegal discrimination, and jetblue and the TSA were ordered to pay $240,000 for that discrimination. People have constitutional rights - even if OTHER people are scared by them using those rights in public.

[Tailormyst]

48. No sorry- in this case he was not a victim

If he had used an ounce on common sense and explained the boxes BEFOREHAND to the attendants then the whole fucking thing would have been avoided. He is lucky that in these times that that was all that happened.

And you are wrong. I can't strap a bunch of shit on me, that looks like they might be bombs, in this day and age, and then expect everyone else to realize that they are part of some pretty unknown religious practice.

I can't fly with my Athame either. Common fucking sense.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mrbarber]

100. Going to have to agree with tailormyst here.

Hell, I was raised Jewish, and I've never heard of this particular practice.

There's just some shit you don't do on airplanes.

[tavalon]

116. There's just some shit you don't do on airplanes

Like wanting a blanket in the last hour of travel or wanting to use the lavatory in that last magic hour or worse yet, wanting to know how close you are to your destination? These are things that the TSA wanted to institute in the wake of the panty bomber. Nope, sorry, this was cultural insensitivity at the very least and more likely bigotry based on fear, which is what bigotry is based upon anyway.

I'm well past the point where I don't want to travel by air anymore. Today is the first day that it is more about the moronic behavior of too many fellow passengers rather than the Dog and Pony show perpetrated by the TSA in this "post 9/11 world".

[tavalon]

113. Just as communists in McCarthy's times were lucky not to lose their jobs

and their freedom.

"In these times" is a mighty slippery slope and I for one, am damn sick of hearing about this "post 9/11 world".

[BoneDaddy]

65. Time to wake the fuck up

pal and stop with everything being racist.

[REP]

111. I raised with a Reform father who ate bacon in the Midwest and even I know what a phylactry is!!

[noamnety]

131. I'm confused.

You want me to wake up and start being afraid of people who don't pose a danger to me?

I don't see that happening, sorry.

[immoderate]

70. Flight crew: "There's a Jee-ew on the plane. Let's get 'em!"

Is that what you're saying happened? They decided to bring down this flight so they could stop this Jewish kid from praying? :shrug:

--imm

[tavalon]

117. No, it's about the flight crew being too immature and easily frightened

to just ask. Would that a few of them would behave like adults instead of terrified toddlers.

[Flaneur]

58. Flight attendant: "Say, what are those black boxes on your arms?"

Kid answers. Issue resolved.

[immoderate]

71. Not if you don't believe what he says.

--imm

[Tailormyst]

90. It's just not that simple really.

[tranche]

55. done

[BoneDaddy]

64. What?

Wow way to confuse issues. The point is this is not racism, it is a misunderstanding of culture. For many who are unfamiliar with Jewish culture, this may have been a scary experience, not knowing the differences between cultures. Considering a more recent plot to blow up a plane occurred a month ago, give people a break and stop calling everything racism.

[cherokeeprogressive]

77. "in public..." You are comparing apples and honeydews here.

Walking down the street is one thing, and I agree with you that Jordan Miles was sorely mistreated.

However, sitting in an airplane owned by a company who is in the business of moving people from one place to another doesn't qualify, at least in my book, as a "public place". The "public" doesn't have ownership of the company's airplane, as do the general public have ownership of a street.

[dysfunctional press]

127. the kid isn't a victim, and the flight crew aren't 'bigots'...

had he informed the crew beforehand, and explained what he was going to be doing...and they still responded in the same manner, then he MIGHT be a victim, and they MIGHT be bigots.
as it stands- the kid is a moran, and the crew were just doing their job and showing due diligence.

sheesh...:eyes:

[alcibiades_mystery]

27. Totally agree

This is in the order of common sense, awareness of your surroundings, and general decency towards others who may be worried.

Just as a note to God-folks: People praying look CRAZY to those of us who don't pray.

[noamnety]

44. This is offensive to me: "People praying look CRAZY to those of us who don't pray. "

and I'm not even religious - always been an atheist, raised that way.

General decency toward others includes respecting their beliefs. It should not include hiding that you are religious because that offends some people - just like general decency should not include pretending to be straight because some people are afraid of or offended by gay people.

If people are scared of someone who is different, that's not the fault of the person who is different. One of the best things for the bigots is to be exposed to the differences, not shielded from them. In that sense, I think the overall effect of this passenger's actions are positive if they bring more awareness of customs so people learn not to freak out.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[smirkymonkey]

59. +100

[alcibiades_mystery]

62. Oh please

Where does everyone else's right to a stress free airplane trip end and this numbskull's rights begin? How sheltered do you have to be in your ethnic enclave before you realize that strapping shit to yourself and reciting whispered words is likely to lead to a bad result on an airplane in flight? C'mon. Maybe this dickhead violated the general *ritual* of not causing a fucking commotion on a public airplane.

[Gormy Cuss]

69. It's an overly broad statement, but apropos in this case.

The kid was doing something that was perfectly normal and routine to him and probably never considered that it would set off an alarm. The crew, seeing something that made no sense from their religious backgrounds, assumed crazy terrorist.

Orthodox Jews and adherents of faiths other than main stream Christianity are now on notice -- your religious practices may subject you to special treatment at the airport. Based on the responses here and on previous threads about this incident it appears that most people WILL blame the religious for the disruption rather than the TERROR! hysteria.

[spoony]

68. Bigots look crazy to me. nt

[Gormy Cuss]

63. Xenophobia, pure and simple.

The kid explained what it was and what he was doing to the flight attendant. It was the crew that acted stupid.

[tavalon]

118. I was trying to remember that word!

Exactly!

[tburnsten]

84. You have got to be kidding me

The first time I saw someone praying with a phylactery it was a pretty wild thing to me, but certainly not frightening and definitely not something that would cause me to land a plane.

Isn't there an Illinois Nazi meeting you could be running right now?

[Warren Stupidity]

96. filed under no shit - perhaps

People can put aside their odd rituals for the duration of the flight. It says so right in the bible.

However, most likely the kid was not naive or stupid, but was instead a putz pushing his religiousity on everyone else.

[MisterP]

137. putting on tefillin hardly constitutes "pushing religion"

unless one is a French politician kowtowing to "teh Mu-SLIMES are taking over" LePen, of course...

[Warren Stupidity]

139. Yeah it does, in this set and setting.

Look it says right in the bible, right in the old testament, that while flying one does not have to perform any rituals. There simply was no excuse for this.

[MisterP]

146. he didn't need an "excuse," Scripture or no--and that still doesn't mean it's "imposing religion"

he wouldn't be "imposing" even if he were in a church

[Warren Stupidity]

150. Clue: unusual and alarming behavior on airplanes is stupid and/or obnoxious.

For example, strapping a box on your forehead while bobbing and mumbling. Justifying this crap under 'religious freedom' is idiotic.

And yes, behaving this way is imposing your religious practices on others.

Just sit in your fucking seat and behave normally. The normal normal, not 'normal' as defined by fundaloon religous nutcases.

[MisterP]

153. phylacteries aren't "fundaloon" or "nutcase"

and who defines "normal normal"? I mean, the majority of humans abhor wearing monotone fabric, but I can't call people in suits freaks who must be made to conform. furthermore, is "normal normal" even good? and how's prayer unjustifiable crap, even if it's in a *gasp* Middle Eastern language.

[Warren Stupidity]

157. yeah they are. Putting boxes on your forehead is looney.

It is also unusual and non normal unless you are cloistered in an orthodox jewish community. That is why the flight crew freaked out: it is odd unusual and quite literally abnormal. It was completely outside their experience of normal. The falsification of your assertion is this episode itself.

[MisterP]

158. how many times have phylacteries set off such a hysterical reaction?

if there were no previous incidents, how can he be blamed: if something has provoked no reaction before, how could he judge that a custom (which is part of everyday life for him) is so egregious? putting on phylacteries is absolutely not abnormal to him! the position that it's objectively wrong and bad is an odd one--as is the assertion that anything "unusual" on a plane is either lunatic or religously imposing/intolerant. and the blame for an overraction falls on the overreactor: that's why the "gay rage" defense is off the books.

furthermore, a man kissing a man is unusual and not normal outside the ~3% homosexual community (I even heard somewhere that gays will only have sex with other gays): it is thus looney--right? redheads are also "literally abnormal," and the strong reaction of ginger bashing proves it. Q.E.D.! the hairdye companies are supporting deviant lifestyles!

whoops, forgot some links to impose on everyone:
#5 at http://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/01/top10_2001_37.html (don't worry, John Cooksey's running for Senate this year!)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2449472

[Warren Stupidity]

159. about as often as anyone has done this on an airplane since 2001. nt

[Tim01]

3. I'm not surprised people got a little freaked out.

People are not used to this kind of thing on a plane. I'm sure nobody had any idea what praying over the box on a plane was all about. It isn't surprising people on planes are a bit jumpy.

[tavalon]

120. Perhaps not surprising

but very embarrassing. People are so easily manipulated. Be scared, be very, very, very scared because it's a totally scary place in this post 9/11 world!!!!!!!!

Or, perhaps, we could just grow up. A person is far more likely to be hit by lightning than to be in an airplane that crashes because of a terrorist. Does that mean we should all hide under our dining room table every time there is a storm or worse yet, we should establish a national brownshirt group to make thunderstorms safe for all of us?

[aquart]

4. Well, I'm not. Lots of people have never seen an Orthodox Jew.

We're barely 2 percent of the country as a whole and we're very divided into Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox, and Atheist But Still Jewish Because of the Culture like my mom.

If it made them nervous, they were perfectly right to do something about it. I'm pretty sure that all flight staff will now be given information on what religiously rigid people look like and which ones are scary.

[undeterred]

5. There was an incident in Georgia where a military guy

attacked an Eastern Orthodox priest who was asking for directions because he thought he was a terrorist. I put the blame on the people who so are uninformed about religion that they do not recognize the major world religions in their traditional dress.

[cali]

6. attacking someone is a little different.

and orthodox Jews are a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage.

[stray cat]

17. I don't think anyone cares if its a little different -only if it looks dangerous

[tavalon]

122. So, if only a tiny percentage of our nation's populace

was black, would it then be okay to be frightened and bigoted against them?

It isn't as apples and oranges as people would like it to be. As a nurse, it is an expectation that I will know as much as I can about the differing cultures of my patients, not only so I can give culturally sensitive care but so I won't be bigoted. Given that airlines cater to as wide a range of different cultures as nurses do, I would expect the same kind of cultural sensitivity from them.

[Heddi]

73. not Georgia--Tampa FL nt

nt

[old mark]

20. My wife's jewish family ranges from orthodox to jewish in name only - my MIL

used to tell me I was more jewish than half her family. Most people would not know a thing about Orthodox jewish prayer rituals.
There are also several varieties of orthodox catholics who are well outside of the mainstream. My home town in PA had Russian, Greek and Ukranian rite catholic churches, and I am sure I missed a few.

But, you are right - If I saw someone bowing and mumbling over a black box in his lap on an airliner, I'd jump on him quick!!!!!

It's easier to apologise if you are not scattered over 15 miles of landscape.


mark

[arcadian]

54. In New York City?

If you haven't seen an orthodox Jew in New york City you aren't really living in New York.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

8. Can't you wait to talk to your imaginary friend till your on the ground?

I don't know which I have less patience for religious idiots or airline security paranoids.

[invictus]

22. +1

[SoCalDem]

61. At least he was not of the fundamentalist snake-handling sect

Snakes on a Plane, indeed:rofl:

I'm with you though.. pray at home and take a valium & a nap :)

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

78. I'm theoretically jewish, these are the snake handlers in our world!

[CLANG]

133. That would be a great solution, but how do you get the valium?

I doubt I can convince my doc to give me a script. Maybe the airline could provide two blues per customer?

[SoCalDem]

135. Perhaps a Valium Smoothie bar, just inside security

Mellow, well behaved passengers:)

[Fire1]

87. Glad I found you out in time. Thank you. "Ignore."

[malaise]

10. You shouldn't be surprised

They do this to Muslims for nothing more than their names.

YOu know "If they come for...in the morning..."

[stray cat]

14. I guess you live on the east coast?

I know many in the rural midwest and south who would not know what he was doing.

[KittyWampus]

25. in NY, there're only fairly small, insular enclaves where these orthodox Jews live-

So you'd have to venture into some areas of Brooklyn to ever get a glimpse. And those areas really are pretty closed-in. And even in those areas, men don't pray like this out on the streets.

The only place I've ever seen those prayer boxes in public was on tv at Wailing Wail in Israel.

[MineralMan]

30. I've never seen phylacteries in use. But, I learned about them

when I was about 12, reading a book about the religions of the world. I guess my curiosity about things like that isn't typical.

While I understand the alarm amongst the passengers on that plane, the boy using his tefillin should have been asked what he was doing. His explanation should have been sufficient to calm things down, in my opinion. Had I been nearby, I would have done the explaining for him.

I find it sad that we don't know more about the religions that are all around us. Here in the USA, we have practitioners of every religion currently practiced on the planet, and a few novel ones that exist only in some small part of the US.

Education is a wonderful thing. I've always thought that a sequence on world religions should be part of our normal education. Maybe once in grammar school and once, again, in high school. There are some cool books, fully illustrated, that would make for a fascinating couple of weeks in a history or other class.

Then, perhaps, we wouldn't mistake Sikhs for Muslims or patriarchs of the Orthodox Christian denominations for...well...I don't who.

Not everyone will seek out this information, so perhaps it should be learned in school.

[spoony]

76. You're right.

It's embarrassing to see this sort of thing happen when a little education could have so easily prevented it.

[spooky3]

126. the problem is, there are many, many things one could spend time learning about

I think it is a very unrealistic expectation that people in general should be curious about religions, myths, beliefs, etc., adhered to or practiced by a tiny minority of the population and take the time to learn about them. The same time could be devoted to many other endeavors. One could argue that the time would be much better spent studying 4th century Greek architecture, or promising new physics theories, for example.

People who behave in unusual ways in airports and other places requiring high security these days -- for whatever reason, not necessarily religious -- are quite naive, if not presumptuous, if they expect others to know why or to ask for and accept a stated explanation as to why they are doing it. Unless there are medical reasons or something similar that prevent someone from controlling unusual behavior, I say the responsibility lies with the practitioner and not with the observer. I hate all the hyper-security BS travelers have to go through these days as much as anyone else, but that is a separate issue altogether.

[Stevenmarc]

38. I live in NYC and it's not uncommon to see orthodox Jews praying with the Tefillin at the airport

If a NYC based flight crew were on the plane I doubt there would have been an issue.

[spoony]

72. You know, I've never seen a crocodile in person.

But you can learn things even if the subject isn't local and staring you in the face. There really isn't any excuse for the stupidity of the flight crew.

[ThomWV]

18. If he had been wearing a turban they would have shot him.

[cali]

33. ridiculous. there have been numerous cases of Muslims

(and some cases of Sikhs) being alerted on. None have been shot. Why do this? Why the silly hyperbole that is so easily refuted with facts?

[hobbit709]

23. that was more a case of flying while stupid.

[MineralMan]

26. This incident seems to argue for a class in

world religions for high-schoolers. Knowing about the religious practices around the world might help minimize the prejudices.

[FarCenter]

29. You can't expect everyone to be familiar with all forms of religious nuttery

[MineralMan]

32. Oddly enough, though, the tefillin the boy was using is

described in the Old Testament, a book common to both Judaism and Christianity. I guess Sunday school doesn't get into it in that level of depth. I imagine that few Christian kids learn about animal sacrifice, either, in Sunday School, even though it illuminates the whole "lamb of God" thing pretty dramatically.

Our willing ignorance of the practices of others never fails to surprise me.

[FarCenter]

35. Christians use the Old Testament Cliff Notes; Jews use the 2 DVD director's cut

With all the supplementary materials.

The boy in your picture below doesn't appear to be wearing tefillin? Just the Hasidic dreadlocks and the funny hat.

[MineralMan]

37. Tefillin are used during prayers, if I understand correctly,

for the most part. I think there are some ultra-orthodox who wear them more often than that.

Orthodox kids get their tefillin at their Bar Mitzvah. I'm not sure about other aspects of Judaism.

I'm an atheist, so my knowledge of this is just based on general background information about religious practices. I could find out more details, but it's not a high priority for me today.

[Art_from_Ark]

128. My Christian church basically ignored the Old Testament

Psalms and the occasional Proverbs verse were the extent of Old Testament citations during regular church services.

[CLANG]

134. There are quite a few atheists in this country too.

I would never clutter my mind with something as absurd (to me) as religion. I try to clutter my mind with information I find interesting and/or useful.

[MineralMan]

34. Here's a photo of an Orthodox Jewish teenaged boy:

If this kid was using tefillin on a plane, odds are he looked something like this kid.

[TexasObserver]

36. Anyone who starts any kind of religious chanting on a plane should be routinely removed.

If they can't fly without making their religious rituals part of it, let them take a train.

What if they want to sing "Onward Christian Soldiers"?

People who can't fly without emoting regarding their religion should find a different mode of travel. We can't help it every nut who blows up an airplane is a religious fanatic. It's quite normal to be suspicious of people who so lack control of their emotions that they can't fly without invoking the Flying Spaghetti Monster to protect them.

[LeftishBrit]

40. That's silly

I am an atheist and not into religious rituals of any sort - but I'd much rather sit on a plane next to someone praying than someone complaining loudly; or someone with a cold, etc.

'People who can't fly without emoting regarding their religion should find a different mode of travel'.

People who can't fly without being upset by other people's different practices should find a different mode of travel. Being in a plane is all about being cooped up in a crowd of very diverse people. Consideration for others requires that people who wish to pray, or speak at all, do so as quietly as possible. Singing loudly on a plane, whether it's Onward Christian Soldiers or Old Macdonald Had a Farm, is inconsiderate toward those who want to read or sleep. But so long as people tone the noise down, they have a right to engage in their own religious, cultural, or just personally preferred practices.

[TexasObserver]

41. Your comments are silly.

I'll say it again. People who can't fly without going into their religious chants should be removed from the plane. Eventually, they'll learn to zip it.

[LeftishBrit]

47. I might find it annoying to be next to someone eating when I'm feeling a bit airsick

People who can't fly without eating on the journey should be removed from the plane. Eventually, they'll learn to wait till they get to the next airport.

One statement is about as reasonable as the other.

Do you think that people should be banned from *talking* on a plane? If so, I suppose you're consistent, but good luck trying to enforce it. If it's only praying that you object to - then, sorry, but you have no right to demand that others conform to your non-religious preferences, any more than others should have the right to demand that you join in their prayers.

And I'm as non-religious as they come.

[TexasObserver]

56. Sounds like a personal problem, and irrelevant to this discussion.

Anyone who engages in any strange behaviors on a plane should be removed. Period. I don't care if they're singing Opera, chanting a football cheer, or praying to the fantasy figure of their choice. If they can't keep it in their head, if they must engage in such behaviors, let them do it somewhere else. There are many people on the plane, and they just want to get to their destination. They shouldn't have to tolerate the handful of idiots who think their need to emote is without limitation.

[nosferaustin]

75. people shoulen't be allowed..

to engage in "strange behaviors?" I find it strange that a grown man would where the jersey of another grown man who plays some professional sport - should sports fans be removed? I find it strange that people allow themselves to become grossly obese, should fat people be removed? I find it strange that anyone would still smoke - should the guy next to me who smells like an ashtray be removed?

Who decides which behaviors are "strange?"

People shouldn't be allowed to do unsafe things on planes. If you're unsure what someone is doing, ask. You might learn something. We are all guilty of flying while paranoid. So, be watchful if you must, question when you don't know, watch when you're suspicions. But to divert an entire planeload of passengers because you don't understand what someone is doing, when there's nothing bad happening is just stupid paranoia.

And yes, I know that sometimes by the time the bad thing happens it's too late; it it's a bomb, waiting may not be the thing you want to do. But guess what, if it's a bomb, by the time the plane lands, it's too late anyway.

[TexasObserver]

79. "Strange behaviors" is purposely broad.

What constitutes "strange behaviors" would be up to the airplane crew, and ultimately, the pilot, who would decide whether someone should be removed. Because it is common and acceptable for grown men to wear sports jerseys, your complaint would fall on deaf ears, as it should. If you complained about it, however, it might get YOU removed from the plane for strange behaviors. You might try it, and see how that works out.

[onenote]

81. what about people who can't fly without singing out loud to their ipod?

Or who have watch movies on their laptops? Or read books?

If someone is watching a movie in a language other than english on a US flight should they be removed?

[TexasObserver]

82. They should be taken directly to Gitmo.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasObserver]

86. I'm not an atheist.

[Romulox]

42. I like to sing songs and play guitar. Why can't I do those things in coach?

Act Kabuki? Practice Tai Chi? Didgeridoo? Nope. Can't do any of that on a plane.

Your analysis simply doesn't stand up to any real world analysis regarding "diverse practices" other than loud religious chanting. One is simply not allowed virtually any room to "express oneself" in the cabin of airplane whether one's muse is religion or love.

[TexasObserver]

43. Why can't I sing "Bad Romance" on the tarmac?

It comforts me and I worship Lady Gaga!

[LeftishBrit]

49. I said already...

that people should not be loud about their activities on a plane. Loud religious chanting is not acceptable; but soft praying is as acceptable or unacceptable as any other form of conversation.

If you are prepared to ban ALL talking on a coach/plane, then fair enough, though you're going to find it hard to enforce. Otherwise, any low-decibel speech practice is just like any other.

In any case, the problem here was not the decibel level, but that staff didn't recognize his tefillin and thought (apparently) that it might be an explosive device. Typical in the present situation; but they should still have had the training to recognize it.

[LeftishBrit]

39. Not surprised either; that's what you get when you combine paranoia with lack of proper training

It's worrying on several grounds: the paranoia and prejudice about anything remotely unfamiliar; and also that if the air crew are so uninformed, they might well miss *real* signs of something going wrong.

Yes, as some have said, in the real world of flying these days, the boy should probably have told the staff in advance - but the staff shouldn't have *had* to be told; they should have better training about such issues.

[Tailormyst]

51. So they should have to know the religious practices and implements of every religion?

That's just absurd. Some of my religious implements would not be well received in an airport. Therefore, I don't fly with them ! Common sense people.

[spanone]

52. how about flying while muslim?...a non-denominational fear-fest

[LeftishBrit]

74. Very true!

[Sebastian Doyle]

60. Well, if this is what a Tefillin looks like

Then it's clearly Jewish, from the big Star of David and the Hebrew writing on it, and only an ignorant fool would mistake it for Muslim.

Not that Muslim prayers in and of themselves should scare anybody either.

[Iggo]

80. How dare this kid not take into account....

....the ignorance and cowardice of the flight crew and the other passsengers!

He's lucky they didn't string his ass up!

[Hekate]

83. It's IGNORANCE, not anti-Semitism. Ultra-orthodox Jews, Muslims, and Christians...

... (the three "Abrahamic" religions, basically) are small in numbers but make up for it by distinguishing themselves from the vast majority of the rest of us by dressing differently (Roman Catholic priests and nuns come to mind), and in the case of orthodox Jews and orthodox Muslims, interrupting their lives several times a day by dropping whatever they are doing and praying wherever they are. The lifeway is rigorous and all-encompassing, especially for Orthodox Jews.

The Orthodox Jewish community in New York City tends to live together in its own neighborhoods, sending children to religious schools, and in general reinforcing each other's behavior and appearance much as small towns do elsewhere in the US. (Garrison Keillor's fictional Lake Woebegone is one such small town, where "diversity" is having both a Lutheran and a Roman Catholic church, and the population is nearly all of Norwegian descent.)

It looks as though the kids (age 16 and 17, brother and sister) were leaving their "small town" and venturing into a world not acquainted with men who "lay tefillin" several times a day according to religious observance. They may genuinely have been that innocent of understanding the implications of behavior that looks strange to others on an airplane. Or, at his stage of adolescence he may also have been making some kind of statement to the wider world about how people are "really" supposed to behave. I've certainly known any number of adolescent boys who felt they had to push their differences of opinion in their parents' and neighbors' faces, such as by wearing offensive t-shirts or back in the 1960s and '70s, by growing their hair really long.

As for the crew and passenger reactions, the times we are living in are both dangerous and absurd. When it comes to traveling by air, tolerance for difference is low to nonexistent. Ignorance isn't bliss, it's bloody dangerous for all concerned.

Hekate

[Tailormyst]

92. I would never have known what they are.

As a parent of children in religious minority I have raised them to be cautious around people who most likely do not know or understand our religion. For that reason I would not take my Athame on a flight. Taking it as a carry-on would not go over well at security and if I packed it in my checked baggage there is always the chance someone might check my bag and, in doing so, touch it.

It is ignorance, or lack of knowledge, but people need to also use common sense. There are a few different ways this could have been handled that would have ended up in a postitive result for all involved. Simply letting the boarding crew know, or the flight crew know, ahead of boarding could have:

1) given them a few minutes to examine it
2) calmed any fears
3) taught the crew something they didn't know previously.

[Hekate]

94. I agree with you completely. And your caution about your Athame is commendable.

It must be challenging indeed to teach your children suitable discretion--the vast majority truly don't have a clue, and a subset of those listen to Pat Robertson (shudder).

Hekate

[pink-o]

88. Wow! The not-so-veiled anti-Semitism in this thread is amazing!

You would defend the Muslim child with the prayer mat, because you see the discrimination and ignorance in this country that would immediately have the crew branding him as a terrorist. And rightly so. I would too.

Yet, some people here seem to think this Jewish kid doesn't deserve the same righteous defence. Why is that? Do you think he's privileged or rich or maybe his family are killing Palestinians? Just wondering!

And as for the kid having enough common sense to alert the crew: are you kidding me? How many of you deal with 17 year old boys? None of them, regardless of culture or religious insular upbringing, think their innocent gestures are gonna be misinterpreted.

But somehow, it's the kid's fault for not warning the crew? I find it unfortunate that the crew didn't understand what was going on, but this country doesn't encourage anyone to learn outside of the mainstream. In the event of erring on the side of caution, the crew probably did exactly what they were supposed to by diverting the plane.

What distresses me is the tone of the posters here! Sorry, but to me it sounds like a total double standard--and I find anti-Semitism on the left to be just as distasteful as when it comes from the Klan or the Neo Nazis. Knock it off!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

95. It isn't anti-semitism, it is expecting religious fanatics to behave in public

An airplane, or any other public space is not the appropriate venue for a theatrical display of your faith - would a jesus freak speaking in tongues be treated any differently?

If you can not move about the world without engaging in a disruptive conversation with your imaginary friend, air travel probably isn't for you.

[pink-o]

99. And that would be an ADULT decision, made by a mature person

who's seen the world from someplace other than a Yeshiva.

I don't think the INCIDENT reflects Anti-Semitism, but some of the posters are certainly showing their true colors.

And for the record, I'm an agnostic--I have no use for fanatics of any stripe. This child isn't a fanatic, he's an insular Orthodox little boy who's never known any other life. It's time to pray, whether on the airline or on the ground. The Tefillin is a religious artifact, not a bomb, and it would never occur to a LITTLE BOY that anyone could consider it differently.

Once again, if this were a Muslim child instead of a Jewish one, I bet all the "liberals" here would rally round without a second thought.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

143. It depends on the circumstances

Then this little boy has very stupid parents,

Muslims have been kicked off planes for doing absolutely nothing, while this kid was making a scene.

[pink-o]

147. "Making a Scene"?

Once again, I state that I'm an agnostic, I think it's all fairy tales and cold comfort for low-information humans when they get scared. But in our culture, prayer and all that ritual is considered "normal".

And for this CHILD, he had no sensibility that anyone would be offended or frightened by what has surrounded him in his insular Yeshiva and home. Teenagers are all stupid, how can you expect him to know what he did would effect such a result?

Anyway, the article I read said that he was very cooperative once he was questioned about it. You people expecting so much from a kid like this just amazes me!

[invictus]

140. +1

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

89. Idiots. For them, exotic looking + praying = terrorists.

Shit like this makes me want to hit somebody with a blunt object.

[Obamanaut]

91. It is interesting to me how so many posters get up in arms about

various religions coming to their doors, or become upset with the Tim Tebows of the world for wearing bible verse inscriptions on his face during games, or with various other displays of other christian type religions - but are perfectly fine with this kid on the plane displaying his religion.

The same posters will say we must become more tolerant and try to understand muslims and their beliefs.

Is it just an anti christian thing?

[whatchamacallit]

93. There was a thread here recently praising Israeli airport security methods

a key component of which, is ethnic/religious profiling. I feel bad for this kid, but if our post 9/11 paralyzing paranoia is going to extend to any group, it should extend to all.

[Bonobo]

97. This thread is fucking sad...

To see the contortions that even liberals will go through in order to excuse this kind of small-minded, xenophobic, cowardly behavior on the part of the airline, is really sad.

All of this rationalization and blaming of the victim who did NOTHING WRONG -it is shocking and a true testimony to how far YOU ALL have been affected by America's plunge into madness. Like Stockholm Syndrome.

The airline industry MUST aim for a higher level of professionalism than this. F-15 escorts over Gilligan's Island references, police intervention over tefillin? What's next?

Why didn't they just ask the kid what it was? Why would a crazy bomber do it in front of everyone? Why a 'black box' on the forehead and arm if it is a bomb?? Are we fucking stupid now as well as cowardly?

Makes me puke. All of you fucking apologists. I hope you are happy with the fascist society you have a role in accepting.

[mrbarber]

104. Your right Bonobo, obviously everyone should be allowed to do whatever they want on a plane..

..as long as it's done in the name of religion.

And to deny anyone this right just makes us "fucking stupid" and "cowardly", because obviously it's to much to ask that people sit down and quietly read on a plane instead of turning it into a goddamn pulpit.

But hey, condescension really works for you, so keep it up.

[Bonobo]

119. Not condescension, no. It is disgust.

"because obviously it's to much to ask that people sit down and quietly read on a plane instead of turning it into a goddamn pulpit."

You sound like a real thinker. I'd love to see the kind of shit you read.

[dysfunctional press]

129. if you're so disgusted with this board...or the human race in general...

there's nothing stopping you from leaving either. :eyes:

[Gormy Cuss]

114. They did ask the kid what it was. They didn't like the answer.

So the plane was turned back, the kid was frogmarched off in cuffs and questioned just because of an acute case of terror hysteria.

Anyone blaming the kid needs a reality check.

[spoony]

136. Right on. Very well said. nt

[noamnety]

151. Thank you - and to everyone who brought some sanity to this discussion.

Up at the start of the thread, for a while there I thought I was going to be the only one who didn't think a boy praying was cause for panic.

Yes, the thread is fucking sad, the more so coming from this website. But it's been at least somewhat redeeming to see some voices joining the thread arguing for knowledge and acceptance of people from other cultures.

I hope people who first looked at this story and thought "I'd be scared too" came away from it smarter, understanding that the problem wasn't the ignorance of the boy but the ignorance of the people around him. And I hope if they come across someone praying in that manner in the future, they can recognize it for what it is and not be one of the ignorant ones.

[rucky]

98. The ignorant have waaaaaaaay too much power.

[KonaKane]

101. If a Muslim on the plan had begun to pray, there would have been a riot

just a little perspective.

[mrbarber]

107. If a crazy Christian had taken out a "prayer box"..

and started speaking tongue over it, there would have been a riot.

If someone had stoop up, and declared their love for the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and put on a pirate sash and start singing "A pirates life for me", there would have been a riot.

[invictus]

141. +1

[MadMaddie]

106. I wonder if it were a blonde blue eyed Christian saying a loud

prayer would be treated the same?

I understand the apprehension but the day they don't check a Timothy McVeigh type then what?

Just pointing out the obvious!

[mrbarber]

108. Any proof to back that claim up?

There have been "rowdy" passengers-either drunk or stones or both-who have caused planes to land early. Not sure what their color was, but you made the claim that if they were white, they'd have gotten a free pass.

[MadMaddie]

112. Rowdy passengers are one thing you are absolutely right

but in this thread we are specifcally talking about loud praying by a Timothy McVeigh. That is my question? Do you think that individual would be treated as this Jewish individual was?

[mrbarber]

121. Someone pray loudly over a box and than strapping it to themselves?

Yeah, I'd say they would be treated just the same.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

145. Jesus freaks get kicked off airplanes too

I have no doubt he would be treated the same way, when the religions don't learn how it is acceptable to behave in public these things happen.

[Obamanaut]

109. Might depend on whether/not the blonde blue eyed christian had

little boxes affixed to his person.

In any event, the people here would strongly suggest that he be biblical and pray in the closet.

Which begs the question, why didn't this little boy keep his prayers in the closet?

[REP]

115. Phylactery boxes are tiny

Not that I'm surprised that not too many on a Kentucky-bound flight were unfamiliar with Jewish practices, but these things are very small - about the size of a loup in a case. It looks more like the person is getting ready to shoot up, not blow up his face and hand!

[unblock]

124. doing something "different" is not automatically a SAFETY THREAT to others.

while i'll agree with some others on this thread that it shouldn't be overly surprising that other passengers and/or the crew might have been made uncomfortable by someone doing something (apparently) unusual, that is NOT, in and of itself, reason to divert a plane.

[KonaKane]

132. It is if you are the wrong color or religion, these days.

Don't kill the messenger. That's the sad state of reality.

[bridgit]

138. Maybe a Holy Roller should go on a flight to Tel Aviv and start handling snakes...

They could make a movie of it no wait...never mind :dunce:

[howard112211]

142. The other day there was a thread on profiling here. And profiling had lots of fans.

This is a case of profiling. "If it kneels and mumbles on a plane it might be dangerous."

I think religious profiling is wrong. However, you cannot advocate religious profiling against one
religion and then complain that it somehow accidentally extended itsself to other religions.

[Mass]

154. We live in an era of total stupidity, that is all.

This remembers me of somebody my husband met when he went to graduate school. The person told him that he was the first Jewish person she met and she was really looking at him as if she was expecting him to have horns and hooves. For him, who had lived all his life at and around Boston, it was a new experience.

It is probable that these people on the plane had no idea that there were Orthodox Jews.