Little beasts: The untouchable Mean Girls

[cali]

By Kevin Cullen


Like a lot of kids her age, Phoebe Prince was a swan, always beautiful and sometimes awkward.


Last fall, she moved from Ireland into western Massachusetts, a new town, a new high school, a new country, a new culture. She was 15, when all that matters is being liked and wearing the right clothes and just fitting in.

She was a freshman and she had a brief fling with a senior, a football player, and for this she became the target of the Mean Girls, who decided then and there that Phoebe didn’t know her place and that Phoebe would pay.

Kids can be mean, but the Mean Girls took it to another level, according to students and parents. They followed Phoebe around, calling her a slut. When they wanted to be more specific, they called her an Irish slut.

The name-calling, the stalking, the intimidation was relentless.

Ten days ago, Phoebe was walking home from school when one of the Mean Girls drove by in a car. An insult and an energy drink can came flying out the car window in Phoebe’s direction.

Phoebe kept walking, past the abuse, past the can, past the white picket fence, into her house. Then she walked into a closet and hanged herself. Her 12-year-old sister found her.

You would think this would give the bullies who hounded Phoebe some pause. Instead, they went on Facebook and mocked her in death.

They told State Police detectives they did nothing wrong, had nothing to do with Phoebe killing herself.

And then they went right back to school and started badmouthing Phoebe.

<snip>

http://www.boston.com/community/moms/articles/2010/01/24/the_untouchable_mean_girls/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed2

[bluestateguy]

1. This is why we need tough new anti-bullying laws

Jailtime and permanent expulsion of school bullies.

[Captain Hilts]

3. We really do. nt

[blondeatlast]

8. Damn the naysayers; I completely agree. nt

[Initech]

21. As someone who was a victim of bullying, I completely agree.

Lock em up and throw away the key.

[Robyn66]

30. absolutely!

Lock em up for a week in big girl jail to learn what real bullying is and maybe they will learn

[reggie the dog]

214. kick them out of school for one

and put them in juvie for a while too.

[D23MIURG23]

121. self-delete

[WriteDown]

137. This is why we need better parenting...

I'm seriously leaning towards requiring a license to procreate.

[dotymed]

167. Just watch FOX tee vee

they show these kids how to bully...

[WriteDown]

169. Or E....

When Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian are considered role models or "stars" then you can pretty much figure it out.

[reggie the dog]

215. shit they learn the same from watching congress

[JerseygirlCT]

348. Better parenting, and better supervision at school

there really ought to be absolutely no allowing that sort of bullying in a school. And the adults around need to quit looking the other way and hoping it disappears and start speaking out about it to the bullies.

Actually, ditto the other kids. The only good way to make it stop is to make it socially unacceptable at every level - starting, as you say, in the home.

[CreekDog]

193. bullying is the way our country works

bullying made America great.

:sarcasm:

[Luciferous]

219. Agreed. I think it's disgusting that these girls are actually

proud that they drove this poor girl to suicide, and they should have to suffer some kind of consequences for their actions. If the death of the girl that they bullied isn't enough for them, maybe some jail time would shut them the fuck up.

[RB TexLa]

342. Hate to use the phrase but "enforce the laws we have." Throwing an energy drink can is assault

try the criminal as an adult and put them in jail for 10 to 8 months. That will get some attention.

[flakey_foont]

2. how tragic

heartbreaking, a young life wasted for this

[reggie the dog]

217. dad was waiting to see her, and she came home in a casket

he is devastated, so is the mom, and the sister....and the bullies are PROUD of contributing to all this pain..... I guess in a country where Rush Limpbarf is so popular this kind of shit is to be expected.

[hlthe2b]

4. I don't know if this has gotten worse than I remember or ....

if they are just better organized and thus more "lethal" in their tactics. How can the community tolerate this after all that has happened? I hope the police are able to do something, but I don't hold my breath. They are raising an entire cohort of sociopaths.

[Lorien]

14. The internet makes it far worse, I think

I was bullied nonstop through my grammar and jr. high years. But back then there was no internet, photoshop or even digital photography. Bullies can take it to a whole new level now. And they don't feel shame for it like they once did; eight years of BushCo taught them that no action-even causing another's death-is shameful, and that punishment is for the weak.

[DeschutesRiver]

256. I agree

I too was bullied without mercy by two girls, but from 6th to 8th grade. I was shy, but with a seriously feisty streak, so I fought back. But there was no stopping them, and even then, I was the one who got in trouble for it, because I would skip classes where I knew the teacher was so lax that I would be pummeled with some of the nastiest stuff imaginable. I was a smart kid, so I could keep up but I hated going to school back then because of these nasty pieces of work. I recall only mild bullying in high school, none of course in college or grad school, and by the time I hit grad school I was back to throughly enjoying learning.

Now, as you say, with the advent of the internet, it must be unbelievably hurtful to be assaulted on such a level. Because of my memories of bullying, stories like this make me cry again just thinking about what this kid must have gone through. To be so young and unfinished, and driven to such an act is totally understandable to me, and totally abhorent that the perps should still be allowed to walk on the earth that they denied to her.

[haele]

18. It's not gotten worse, it's gotten "acceptable".

Mean Girls have always been around. But since being "outrageous" is now no longer unacceptable - in fact, pretty much glorified as "Independence" in the mass media the kids model their lives after, and public authority over children has effectively been neutered, they're pretty much free to run roughshod however they want and not face any consequences.
Especially since mommy, daddy, and/or step-parents want to be "unconditionally loved" and for whatever reason - time, oblivious self-centeredness, exhaustion, willful ignorance, don't enforce the self-control and discipline needed to keep the balance between healthy self-confidence and being a selfish bully.
It's easier nowadays to just let a girl self-raise herself to be a privileged manipulative, and eventually perpetually angry bitch rather than take the time and effort to work with her a confident young woman.

Oh, and boys do it to. They just tend to be more physical than mental about it.

Haele

[Odin2005]

74. And if schools try do do something about it the parents of the bullies have throw a hissy fit.

Blasting the school for "singling out their little angel" and calling the victim of bullying a liar.

[Kajsa]

113. Screw that!

Just have those loud mouth parents deal with THIS
parent of a son who was bullied and I'll give them something
to think about!

As a parent and a teacher, I'll stand up to anyone,
loud mouth bully parents included.

I've done it and I'll do it, again.

[reggie the dog]

223. damn right I am a parent and a teacher and I do the same

I see the kids afraid to stand up to the bullies. I see the bullies scare the kids. I constantly remind the bullies that they lack respect for other kids, their teachers, their school and for themselves. Just 2 weeks ago a kid stood up to a bully in my class and the bully pushed him and was about to punch him when I stood up, bear hugged the kid and told him "fuck off, just fuck off asshole, not in my class, not in my school". The bullied kids mother called me up (I gave the kid my phone number to give to his mom if he had any further trouble with the bully) and thanked me. Luckily the bully's dad knows his son is acting up, thanked the school for suspending him for 2 days, and told his son to apologize to me and the bullied kid in front of the whole class when he came back. His dad is police cheif, perhaps the dad told his son where he could end up for beating people up..... when the parents defend truth, and what is right, our job as teachers is so much easier than when they defend their kids at all price....

[BuelahWitch]

129. Hit 'em in the wallet where it hurts

The victims parents should sue the bully parents. Then maybe they won't think them so angelic when their pocketbook is affected!

[crikkett]

145. It won't bring back the dead girl.

I was stronger than the dead girl. Or weaker. Depends how you look at it.

[SemperEadem]

172. the issue is not what you were stronger than

or Phoebe (she does have a name) can't be brought back from the dead.

The issue is that severe consequences need to be applied to the girls, their parents and the school administration because if they're grown enough to engage in what they did, then they're grown enough to pay the consequences for their actions.

[CrispyQ]

148. I disagree somewhat.

I think because our society has become more accepting of bad behavior, we are seeing a rise in bullying. We had eight years of a president who's a classic bully & many interpreted that as a sign of strength. We have sports stars who rush into the stands & assault the fans & the worst that happens to them is a fine & they sit out a few games. Road rage is apparent almost every time you drive. Civility in our society is breaking down.

[raccoon]

159. Great post. nt

[raccoon]

161. Many in our society think being an asshole is being assertive. nt

[abelenkpe]

178. I agree.

Doesn't help when the news always shows one person shouting down another either. Cruelty is definitely on the rise.

I was bullied a bit in school for standing up for another against a cruel clique of upper middle class spoiled girls. I mostly ignored them when they would taunt me. They ruined my fifteenth birthday, literally calling everyone invited and telling them not to go. I had a hard time explaining to my family why only a few showed up. I did get to find out who was truly my friend though. One day the mean girls gathered around the girl I had defended previously in the lunchroom and pantsed her exposing her completely from the waist down in front of the entire 10th grade. I lost my cool jumped a table and beat the heck out of the girl who was the instigator. We all ended up suspended. I remember vividly holding a hand full of her hair as I sat shaking in Mr. Wilson's office. I was bad, ashamed of my rage. It was a long time ago. Today that would merit an arrest.

Civilized society has always been a thin and tenuous thing. Easy to accomplish during times of prosperity. The true test of who we are comes in times of want which does not bode well if the economy continues to slide.

[tblue]

183. You're a Hero!

You've got guts. And I love guts. Never ever regret what you did. I'm so proud of you.

I was bullied a bit. I got beat up by a bigger, older girl who said I wasn't her color. She was black and I'm half black. Talk about mean! And yes we both got in trouble because I had the nerve to try to defend myself. But my best friend intervened, tried to stand up for me and she got threatened, too. I ended up with a black eye. The mean girl I don't think had a scratch. This was soooo long ago, but I will never forget that my friend tried to protect me. I found her on Facebook recently and I told her I never ever forgot what she did and I will always love her for it.

You are a hero, too!

[CrispyQ]

196. Your final sentence is spot on!

"The true test of who we are comes in times of want which does not bode well if the economy continues to slide."

[reggie the dog]

233. why were you ashamed? That was good healthy rage

nothing bad about it, you used violence to defend someone against violent injustice. That is justified. You did nothing wrong. Even if you would get arrested today I still say there is nothing morally wrong with what you did.

[joeglow3]

179. And I bet you think oral sex among kids increased because of Clinton

ONE thing has caused this: lazy ass parents.

[CrispyQ]

194. No, I don't think that & your conclusion isn't logical.

:eyes:

The rudeness in our society is more than just bad parenting - it's ego run amok - it's the result of a society that idolizes hyper-individualism at the expense of community. We all have a voice in how we behave as a collective & when good people stand silent while bullies attack their victims, it leads to more bullying. Yes the parents of these monsters definintely hold the brunt of the blame, but we are all responsible for speaking & acting out when we see abuse like this.

What stuns me is how many on this site have recounted stories where school officials turn a blind eye to this horrid behavior & often times, blame the victim. Unfuckingbelievable.

[joeglow3]

225. I was simply relaying something I have heard plenty of people say about Clinton

While I agree with what you say, I believe THAT also comes down to parenting. My oldest is a first grader and I constantly emphasize the importance of standing up against this type of behavior. Additionally, I make sure my son knows I will certainly not tolerate him perpetuating it. While I and disappointed with the teachers and admins turning a blind eye, it is sad that the responsibility even falls on them to deal with it.

[wolfgangmo]

224. Let's be clear on one point.

Yes the schools are responsible for their part. The parents are responsible for guiding their kids. And the media in the US which is mostly gossip and hyper -egos is also responsible.

But at the end of the day, it is the mean girls themselves who decided to act the way they did. They are responsible and they should be held accountable, if not by the authorities, then by their peers.

In my day we would have tossed them in the back of a pick-up, drove to the countryside and had a little come to Jesus meeting about their behavior. Call it negative conditioning.

[reggie the dog]

236. perhaps, it also showed that Clinton's ego

and individualistic desires were more important than his responsability to his family. I think is is far worse than lazy parents anyway. I think it is parents teaching their kids a morality, through actions, words, or both; which is at odds with the morality we seem to be talking about. In their morality it is completely moral to pass judgement on others, taunt them, push them around because only the fittest survive. The morality I think you and I partake in involves mutal respect at a minimum if not having care for other people. 2 moralities from 2 groups of people who are both mostly native born members of their own country. Whose morality will prevail? be it in the USA or over here in the European Union......????? This is about so much more than politics our little left wing right wing stuggle, to me it is a matter of saving our human spirit, our souls, or descending back into the barbary of animalism.

[joeglow3]

242. Amen!

[reggie the dog]

227. I see the same thing happening in France

am I getting old? I dont think so. Incivility is a sign of virility, of a real go getter today.....we need another hippie revolution

[Threedifferentones]

276. Where do you live?

I've done plenty of driving in the past few years here in TN, seen plenty of road rage but hardly "almost every time I drive."

[susanwy]

309. +1

...

[Guilded Lilly]

190. Worse, acceptable AND much easier...

thanks to anonymous outlets such as the Internet, as well as *reality* TV that promotes aggressiveness. It's all a vicious cycle...accent on vicious.

Great thoughts, Haele.

The loss of any kind of accountability starts in the home, spreads to the school, into the workplace and of course was reinforced for eight years with the highest positions in a very thug oriented government. Oh yeah, it has always existed in all those places for various reasons and in various degrees. But never with such lack of personal accountability or common decency.

Females can be horrid creatures. The mental anguish and full-blown ugliness of *Mean Girls* syndromes can far outlast any round house punch from a bullying male counterpart.

No matter the source or the reason...and there are MANY, not only clueless or bad parenting...the rest of society has to ironically, develop an intolerence for this kind of intolerance. And it won't be easy, because the letter and rule of the law in recent years has protected bastards and wretches and liars and bullies.

I do feel that standing up to any type bullying behavior is the beginning. But it is incredibly tough when you are a kid. Shame on ALL of us for allowing this continuing ugliness to exist so easily.

[Posteritatis]

44. It's gone from something that just happened, to acceptable, to actively encouraged. (nt)

[depakid]

112. It is indeed- anyone listening to AM hate radio or watching Fox "news" sees it every day

relentlessly.

[Posteritatis]

114. Or reading bullying threads on DU half the time. (nt)

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

46. I can't speak to the "mean girl" aspect, but bullying was a huge problem at my high school

I was not bullied myself but many were, most of it revolving around worthless white trash harassing the "terrorists" and "gooks" - who incidentally were predominantly the children of South Vietnamese and the Shaw's military officers who were granted asylum and resettled in Orange County. Not that such a detail was of any interest to them...

It wasn't tolerated so much as the approach to fighting it was naive and ridiculous.

There were no suicides when I was there but the problem was enormous and while well intentioned everything the administration did only made things worse, of particular concern was a no police involvement policy in ANYTHING that happened at the school (just imagine that today) they didn't want to do ANYTHING to the bullies because at any minute they could smarten up, ace their SAT's and goto Yale.

Although, ironically some of those who were the worst bullied at my high school are the most successful. Including a supermodel, now photographer. one of Hollywood's top film editors, and a rockstar, while the worst of the bullies are just fat, balding unemployable losers.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

76. My theory is that the bullies know deep down that high school is going to be the high point

of their lives, so they pick on the kids who have potential for better things.

[Mopar151]

212. That's part of it, for sure.

For guys, school sports is a big factor. In regional schools, there are opprutunities for new alliances among the cliques, and team sports can be a catalyst for that.

[haele]

5. Look at the homes, and you'll find out why those girls think they're untouchable.

Bored, priviliged, angry little princesses who probably never did a lick of actual work in their lives and who's parents "sheltered" them from any sort of resistance or negativity and bought their love and self-esteem.
They were also probably pretty much raised by TV, magazines, and other mass media - where all problems are solved by the "40 minute fix".

Poor Phoebe.

Haele

[lukasahero]

17. South Hadley demographics

"The median income for a household in the town was $46,678, and the median income for a family was $58,693. Males had a median income of $42,256 versus $31,219 for females. The per capita income for the town was $22,732. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Hadley,_Massachusetts

Not really a demographic I would consider typical of "Bored, priviliged (sic), angry little princesses"...

I agree, poor Phoebe. But your uneducated generalizations and stereotyping will do nothing to solve the actual problem of bullying.

[haele]

33. You can be raised by working parents and still be a "princess"

It's not a rich kid/poor kid problem.

Some of the kidlet's schoolmates are being raised just above the poverty line and still think they're princesses, and pull that "Mean Girl" clique crap all the time. They think it's cute to be a Brat, and have no problems talking back to adults, bullying, lying to and about, and stealing from their school-mates (as well as shoplift) with impunity.
Heck, one of her former friends, now apparently a mortal "enemy" regularly bullies her mom and grandparents into buying her new "Southpole" and "BabyPhat" clothes pretty much every other week - "I can't wear the same outfit twice". And she apparently still just throws them away if one of the clique she runs with hasn't expressed an interest in the clothing item. She, her mom, and male siblings live at the grandparent's house, every able-bodied adult works multiple jobs, and the whole family is on Medicaid and other aid programs. Yet this girl, a now 17-year-old middle child of three, is "the princess".

The princess attitude comes from whomever is raising the child and allows the girl to act that way. Not some economic generality.

Haele

[Odin2005]

77. Your "Friend" sounds like a walking personality disorder.

:puke:

[MattBaggins]

50. You can live in a trailer park and have the princess types

they live in the double wides

[Hello_Kitty]

176. And the princes too.

In many households it's the boys who get to loll about the house all day while their sisters are expected to help out.

[cali]

36. as someone else pointed out, that's wrong

this is not a wealthy town. I think we have to look beyond "privilege"- at least financial privilege.

[haele]

42. Sigh. Okay, I should have clarified it. Emotional Privilege.

Poor parents try to buy their children's love and shelter them from any hard work or "unpleasantness" too.
I've seen it happen too many times amongst the kidlet's friends - and "enemies" - who are not well off - and her mother did the same thing to her regularly when she had custody of her - try to buy her love, and keep her from the real world.

Haele

[Dorian Gray]

135. South Hadley

isn't a poor town, either, though. It's a rural Western Mass town, but close in proximity to Northampton and Amherst.

That doesn't mean that I believe the bullies' backgrounds are those of wealth and privilege. Like many others, I was bullied by people in school, and I don't think my bullies were financially superior to everyone else. I don't think Bullies fall into any financial class. They are who they are because of how they were raised by their parents. It's sad.

[Gormy Cuss]

166. It's the home of Mt. Holyoke college.

According to the wiki page, the high school has champion lacrosse and golf teams and marching band. Those aren't attributes of public schools in principally poor or even principally blue collar areas.


South Hadley has around 6% poverty rate, less than half that of the Springfield MSA.

Economically, South Hadley is diverse. While residents generally have an income above that of the Springfield Metropolitan area, some neighborhoods have median incomes exceeding that of the state yet other neighboroods have incomes below the Springfield area. With a household poverty rate of less than 6% in 2000, the community does not have chronic poverty issues.

source: http://www.southhadley.org/Pages/SouthHadleyMA_WebDocs/about

I used to visit the area frequently on business. South Hadley is like the other Pioneer Valley college towns, with some low income people, some high income people, and lots of middle class people.

[Dorian Gray]

244. One of my best friends

from college lives there (love the Hadley corn and asparagus in the summer!), so I've been there quite often. It's a nice town. Sad, however, that it's inundated with bullying girls in their high school system.

[-..__...]

79. Prepare to rip your eyes and ears out.

I'm not a violent person by nature, but I'd love to see this entire family receive a Mike Tyson
pile driver to the face...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYNymvtbWw4

Original, unedited version...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYNymvtbWw4

[reggie the dog]

246. You have got to be kidding me

I am from Illinois and all but I would prefer being married to, or having as a mother, the woman from Indiana.

[alphafemale]

287. I had to see that through to the end...lol

I like how the feminist family ended up embracing the one little girls "girlyness."

It was wrong that they had been suppressing that part of who she was.

I think "beauty queen" learned a good bit and expanded her comfort zone.

I don't think the "geek" did that as much, except for a first knowledge that she actually was very pretty. I think she felt really great at first but then her dad really cut her down after returning from the makeover. The crossed leg body language was sad.

That was just as hurtful as the other dad denigrating the first attempt at a meal.

Encourage your kids in their sometimes clumsy attempts at uniqueness.

They are not extensions of you.

[WriteDown]

138. Spot on. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

6. Expulsion. No second chances.

I don't understand why we can have "zero tolerance" for a kid who brings an advil to school, but not this shit.

[blondeatlast]

9. True that. The reason may be what motivates parents to get involved.

Drugs? BAAAD. Threats/mocking/abuse? That's just "kids being kids; and I had to tough it out."

[DBoon]

26. jail is more like it (nt)

[dugaresa]

7. that is just so sad

kids are always mean and the girls that tormented Phoebe should be punished, I only wish she had gotten some help before taking her life. makes me so sad.

those mean girls will one day pay, either now or later in life. being a mean person eventually catches up with you. sadly their parents apparently fostered this behavior.

[cap]

11. bullies have their own issues

not to try and get sympathy for the Mean Girls... but they should definitely see a psychologist.

If that were my daughter involved in something like that, I would be in for some very heavy family counseling.

I would also be asking myself what I did wrong to turn out a daughter like that.

[dugaresa]

24. typically bully kids have bully parents

i had a neighbor who was a first class ass and bully. his eldest was a chip off the ole block. i had to laugh when his little bully kid started making nasty pornographic phone calls to his fellow bully friend's mother. apparently when this woman became the target of her son's friend it started to dawn on her that she didn't much like it.

sometimes it is a sign of abuse or other factors when kids bully but to be honest there are a lot of kids who have assholes for parents but who are smart enough to be better than them. counseling would be great but sadly i think there is a point where it does no good. sometimes they only learn when they get burned by their own game or they are punished by the law.

if it were my kid i would be ashamed beyond all measure but sadly I don't think these kids have parents that much care and parents that care don't raise bullies.

i have done some volunteer sports stuff with kids and the reason i don't volunteer anymore is due to the problem kids. they and their parents make it a miserable experience

[Robyn66]

34. too bad

I don't have any sympathy for the bullies they should have some real issues if they have to spend time in jail for causing someone to commit suicide!

[cap]

54. yeah.... but they continue to spread the toxicity

I know what you mean though... this is not saying that you don't impose limits and punishment as well.

[Schema Thing]

10. shitty parents raise crappy kids

[tblue37]

12. Not necessarily. They might become president (W) or a

surprise VP pick (Palin) who then mkes a lot of money because she has gotten national exposure. Often these nasty people are very successful in life, because they have parents who will make sure that everything goes their way, or else they can use their looks to win advantages that others cannot access.

[azurnoir]

20. Sarah Palin came to mind while I was reading

these girls have already learned the "advantage" of privilege and yes unless they are stopped they will become the new "leaders"
I also agree with person who commented of article that these girls need to be stopped now and by almost any means necessary, they should be ruined and the net can be a two way street part of the reason they get away with it is that the other kids are too afraid to act

[montanto]

165. Absolutely!

And Great parents raise Great kids.

And Great parents raise crappy kids.

And Shitty parents raise Great kids.

And so we arrive where we began.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aikoaiko]

15. Jeremy spoke again.

terrible news.

I'm open to bullying laws. I'd like to see an example of such. I'm surprised harassment policies don't already cover it.

[State the Obvious]

16. The precedent for bullying, name-calling, mocking... WITHOUT accountability

.....has been set.

How many other stories can you think of where a young person who has been ruthlessly mocked and bullied commits suicide? (Or in the case of Columbine....taken others down with them, because no one was held accountable for causing pain to another human being.)

This is ONE very sad story.....and my guess would be be that each of us could add at least two other sad stories like this to the scenario.

[AngryAmish]

174. Columbine killers were not bullied

It is just one of those urban myths.

[reggie the dog]

247. ??????

fill me in. I am sure I saw reports where kids said they were picked on

[JHB]

301. The main references would be...

...two books: Columbine by Dave Cullen and Why Kids Kill: Inside the Minds of School Shooters by psychologist Peter Langman.

Excerpts from a USA Today article on this, and a Langman article in Psychology Today below:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-04-13-columbine-myths_N.htm

Their rampage put schools on alert for "enemies lists" made by troubled students, but the enemies on their list had graduated from Columbine a year earlier. Contrary to early reports, Harris and Klebold weren't on antidepressant medication and didn't target jocks, blacks or Christians, police now say, citing the killers' journals and witness accounts. That story about a student being shot in the head after she said she believed in God? Never happened, the FBI says now.

A decade after Harris and Klebold made Columbine a synonym for rage, new information — including several books that analyze the tragedy through diaries, e-mails, appointment books, videotape, police affidavits and interviews with witnesses, friends and survivors — indicate that much of what the public has been told about the shootings is wrong.

In fact, the pair's suicidal attack was planned as a grand — if badly implemented — terrorist bombing that quickly devolved into a 49-minute shooting rampage when the bombs Harris built fizzled.

"He was so bad at wiring those bombs, apparently they weren't even close to working," says Dave Cullen, author of Columbine, a new account of the attack.

So whom did they hope to kill?

Everyone — including friends.

What's left, after peeling away a decade of myths, is perhaps more comforting than the "good kids harassed into retaliation" narrative — or perhaps not.

It's a portrait of Harris and Klebold as a sort of In Cold Blood criminal duo — a deeply disturbed, suicidal pair who over more than a year psyched each other up for an Oklahoma City-style terrorist bombing, an apolitical, over-the-top revenge fantasy against years of snubs, slights and cruelties, real and imagined.

Along the way, they saved money from after-school jobs, took Advanced Placement classes, assembled a small arsenal and fooled everyone — friends, parents, teachers, psychologists, cops and judges.

"These are not ordinary kids who were bullied into retaliation," psychologist Peter Langman writes in his new book, Why Kids Kill: Inside the Minds of School Shooters. "These are not ordinary kids who played too many video games. These are not ordinary kids who just wanted to be famous. These are simply not ordinary kids. These are kids with serious psychological problems."



http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/keeping-kids-safe/200905/columbine-bullying-and-the-mind-eric-harris
With the recent passing of the tenth anniversary of the Columbine attack, there has been considerable discussion in the media regarding the role of bullying in school shootings, particularly at Columbine. Though I addressed this issue in my book, it continues to generate a lot of discussion, and further comments may help to clarify some points. There is such a massive amount of information on Columbine, that it is possible to find evidence for numerous different views of the attack. The preponderance of the evidence, however, indicates that Eric Harris was a disturbed young man who had other motivation for the attack than retaliation for harassment.

How did I arrive at this conclusion? I spent a couple of years wading through approximately 20,000 pages of Jefferson County Sheriff’s Office (JCSO) documents related to Columbine. I created a guide to this material by organizing references to specific themes and noting who said what and on what page it can be found. This document, “Jefferson County Sheriff’s Office Columbine Documents Organized by Theme,” can be found on my website, www.schoolshooters.info (other documents mentioned below are also on my website). In the article, “The Search for Truth at Columbine,” I looked at both the JCSO information as well as that from other sources and tried to arrive at a balanced, comprehensive view of Eric, Dylan, and the attack. In “Eric Harris: The Search for Justification,” I examined Eric’s various statements of blame and responsibility he made regarding the attack, noting his frequent changes and self-contradictions and trying to make sense of them. I gathered quotes from Eric in “Themes in the Writings of Eric Harris,” and organized them by theme.

Based on this research, I concluded that Eric had a disturbed personality with prominent antisocial, narcissistic, and sadistic traits. To understand his personality is to understand his motivations for murder.

This doesn’t mean that Eric was never picked on, but based on my review of the evidence, the initial reports in the media exaggerated the severity of Eric’s harassment. There were students at Columbine who endured truly abusive behavior from several problematic students, but Eric does not seem to have been one of them. Besides, these prominent bullies graduated the year before Eric. Thus, the attack could hardly be retaliation against these kids when they hadn’t been at the school for a year. There was one incident in Eric’s senior year in which he was pushed into lockers, but this would hardly explain his desire for mass murder, especially because he had already been planning the attack for months when this happened.

[backscatter712]

297. True. Eric Harris was a psychopath. He WAS a bully.

[Robyn66]

19. I am just waiting for the "kids are wimps now-a days"

posts to start. Like they ALWAYS do when there is a topic like this.

My daughter, who has Aspergers has been a victim of bullying and pardon me if I don't give a shit about the "mean girl's" problems.

Those little bitches belong in jail for doing what they did. They are just as culpable as if they murdered her with a knife or a gun.

There is NO excuse for that going on. It us UNACCEPTABLE in ALL cases.

[cali]

23. I disagree about jail

I do think they deserve to be expelled and for their behavior here to be placed in their permanent records.

[seeinfweggos]

104. expulsion yes but

more than that. I do believe they should be criminally charged with at least harassment. I don't recent jail either but probation and community service designed to develop empathy.

[renate]

230. harassment most definitely, and it should be on their record too

Like someone upthread said, I don't understand why kids aren't allowed to bring Advil to school but they can behave like this and maybe get a slap on the wrist. Whether their victims commit suicide or are "merely" scarred for life, bullying should be a CRIME. It has repercussions that can last decades, or in Phoebe's case, forever.

:cry:

[seeinfweggos]

331. good point. advil = zero tolerance

bullying = tolerance

[Withywindle]

337. I really think child-on-child CRIME, because it is, needs to be taken seriously.

It's not like the CHILD victims of CHILD criminals are any less dead or traumatized than any other victims of any other criminal.

[backscatter712]

304. Ooooh, in the permanent record!!! What a joke!

Does anyone look in a person's "permanent record" containing a person's junior high school transgressions after he's graduated? I don't think so.

Stronger means are necessary against bullies. Expulsion's good. Imprisonment's better.

[Mopar151]

313. Should we have "Betty Ford for bullies"?

To break up the cliques, at least for a short time, and confront the little monsters with what they've done? They need to see life outside their comfort zone, learn about consequences, and deal with some folks who ain't buyin' their crap. Their families likely need some releif, from them, too.
The liquor bill for the staff lounge will be brutal.

[hlthe2b]

39. I remember incredible cruelty by these types decades ago...

I do think internet and social media makes it far more malignant... I remember being shocked at girls behaving every bit as violent as the male bullies, yet often far more manipulative in getting others to follow and cover for them.

[Odin2005]

80. This Aspie agrees with you!

:hug:

[Robyn66]

168. Thank you Odin!!

I absolutely ADORE you! So would my daughter!

[asdjrocky]

22. God fucking damn it!

Don't be mean, just don't be mean. Tell your kids every single day.

[seabeyond]

29. smack in the middle of the kid thing.... the parents that inforce, and reinforce and

discuss some more, dont have the kids that are mean. the few times my kids have run into children that behave like this is the clear evidence of the parent that believes... just part of being a kid. all kids do it. part of growing up.

i hear ya

[renegade000]

52. exactly

many of the problems we face in society boil down to the fact that people do not realize how important proper parenting of their children is. i think we have a culture in this country that holds fantastical notions regarding free-will and good vs. evil. people don't realize how much the environment and guidance (or lack thereof) they provide their children when they are growing up basically DETERMINES what kind of people their children will be. people ought to view parenting as the most important task that anyone could possibly undertake. you're basically in charge of programming another human being and releasing them into the world to do good or evil! it's a hard task, obviously you can't supervise your kids 24/7, and i have tremendous sympathy for people who are stuck in bad neighborhoods just trying to get by (which is why i support progressive economic policies - REAL FAMILY VALUES)... but as a culture we really need to think about these issues more.

[seabeyond]

100. just being a teenager. terrible twos, .... boys will be boys. we use these cliches as parenting

tools.

my kids are now 12 and 15 and i am seeing each and every one of those quirky little comments are false, unless that is our expectation of the child. and our expectation will always be met.

to ignore what your child is doing, to not put effort and connect with child, to talk and discuss, to set an example for child instead resorting to, .... that is what teenagers do, or mean girls do set child up to do exactly that. every step of the way in my kids development i have faced parenting head on and those cliches have become meaningless. and now my children are teenagers and i am hearing teenage stuff from society and i tell kids bullshit. that is not what being a teenager is. and it isn't what my boys are.

the bottom line in all that. geeez, do a little parenting and the family unit, the home is less work, less stress, let problems and is EASY. (comparatively, lol)

[renegade000]

110. i'm sure your kids will appreciate your thoughtfulness

and pro-active involvement in their lives in the end, even if they aren't as receptive now. i know that the adolescent and teenage years aren't exactly an easy period when it comes to parent-child relationships. heh, maybe it'll even happen sooner than you think. i'm 22, and i've come to see clearly (after all the hormonal imbalances of puberty :P) just what a lucky son-of-a-gun i was in the great cosmic lottery to be born to the parents i was born to.

[seabeyond]

136. nah. what i am saying is the kid thing becomes very easy if the time is put in

all the woes of raising kids dont seem to be there if connected with kid, if there is a flow of respect back and forth, if a foundation is created for the children.

parents that easily dismiss behavior with quaint comments like terrible two, teenagers, boys will be boys instead of addressing the actual behavior create much more of a mess for themselves.

it may be more work at the time, but being connected and respectful to the child ends up creating an environment of a hell of a lot less work.

[RaleighNCDUer]

154. Well, the 'terrible twos' has some truth to it -

a former toddler who no longer toddles but RUNS absolutely everywhere, and has no notion of self control or appropriate behavior yet IS the definition of terrible twos. It isn't the kid that is terrible - the kid is just doing what all kids that age do naturally (and I'd be worried about a kid that was not explosively curious at that age) and short of regular beatings they are not going to do otherwise - it is the parent having to be on high alert 24/7, and keeping an eye on the kid every second, because that is exactly how long it takes for a kid to decide to give the wall outlet a drink, or to go pet that dog across the street.

Terrible twos is not a description of the child, but of the wear and tear on the parent.

Other than that, I agree.

[seabeyond]

162. i think we are defining terrible twos differently. the tantrums.... the no no no no

the inability for reconciliation.

i had two totally different children. and in addressing the time of independence and exploration and anonymity we had to address the terrible two behavior differently with each child.

yes it is a 24/7 watch, but that is just a parent doing the job. it is the parent that doesn't give the time, and then when the child goes into the explosive, dismissing it with terrible twos, that continues to have the problem with the child. as opposed to the parent that is doing the 24/7 and the child goes into mine mine mine and addressing that patiently, calmly and thru example and other means gets beyond that.

only to move on to the next stage and address that. help guide them to take each stage, live in it, be in it and go beyond, in the higher

[reggie the dog]

248. when kids are 2 they begin to assert themselves

as an independent entity. They cry, throw fits ect. more than before. We have to ignore the fits and teach the kid to follow our rules but you cannot truly believe that the terrible 2's dont exist. They are just no excuse to give in to the kids whims.

[seabeyond]

250. neither kid was so terrible. what happens if you understand and allow the independence

with boundaries. the children want need insist on the boundaries. it is when they are allowed to be without boundaries that all hell happens. understanding the independence and exploration and providing that for the child, which again, takes the time and patience, kinda skips the battle of it.

drama and trauma of teenage years exist too. there is no denying. and allowing the teenage, in all the turmoil yet still with those boundaries that the kids even then still need, allow the kids an anchor in that turbulent time.

it is when there are not the clear boundaries and the child is out of control at any age and stage, and the parent reduces their parenting to, terrible twos, teenager, is when they do the children a disservice.

[reggie the dog]

265. ah I see, it is true that once my daughter realized

that she cant always have her way she threw less fits. She also sees that when it is free time she can play with any of her toys, but when it is bath time it is bath time. I think she is starting to understand what "after" means so she understands that she can play after her bath.

[seabeyond]

278. my niece, with her two year old.... so out of control

she is a good mama (way young, works hard as a parent) but.... as parents they were always asking the girl. are you ready to go? NO. will you put on your coat? NO. no no no no. for a couple months this child was so unenjoyable to be around and not at my house that often. then there was a period she was around more and i started implementing the boundaries in my house for the child. she readily accepted the boundaries. and.... she was allowed freedom, and independence and all the rest. i finally told niece, quit ASKING. two yr olds cant handle that. they need to be told, ...on some things.

my son at 13 explored disrespect for a small amount of time. first time ever. not once did i allow disrespect and didnt take long for him to decide that wasnt the way to go. he had learned that that was how teenagers proved their independence. on the other hand, i recognized the need he had for more independence and things he wasnt allowed to do or never afforded to do, i started giving to him. but a big part of that getting off the hip was me giving him more responsibilities along with freedoms.

[CoffeeCat]

122. Not just the parent...the principal...

My two daughters attend an elementary school with a principal who does NOTHING about kids
being bullied. My daughter was bullied in kindergarten--yes, kindergarten--by a girl who
clearly had some deep, emotional issues. My daughter would come home with bite marks on
her forehead, her clothes soaked in mud and bizarre cards from this little girl.

I went to the principal and I was told that my child "needed to be more assertive". She
was afraid to go to school, and this went on for three months. I tried to work with her,
as best I could, but she is naturally shy and she was only five!

She's in forth grade now, and is doing well. However, she will never entirely feel safe at
school because this went on for so long. I tried my best to get it stopped, but I couldn't
be there with her every minute.

It's impossible, when the principal won't even do anything. He is a bully himself--I have
deduced, during the past few years of dealing with him.

It's very hard when it happens to your own child.

I can't even imagine how these sociopathic girls use social media, such as Facebook and Twitter, to harass and bully. That's frightening.

[JerseygirlCT]

350. Yup. Either they participate themselves -

as your principal did - or they hope if they ignore it, it will soon be someone else's problem or it will go away.

And the thing is, that bully probably needed help. And won't get it so long as blame is placed elsewhere.

Sounds to me like you could have pressed charges...

My son was bullied by a teacher in 5th grade. And after elementary school was over also told us about being pushed into his locker and having the door closed on him. He brushed that sort of stuff (the kid on kid) off, but I wouldn't have been so fast to do so had I known then.

We did what we could about the teacher - the principal was quite supportive, but had her hands tied because the union scared the school board and they wouldn't allow her to be fired.

[JerseygirlCT]

349. Oh yes

or the parent doesn't want to seem "mean" or "not cool", so goes along. Or refuses to see their little darling is the one behaving badly.

I think empathy is a learned behavior. If you don't teach children to think of others, how will they learn?

[abelenkpe]

182. And don't hang out with people who are mean.

Honestly, I had a friend in school who so wanted to fit it with this mean clique of girls. All they ever did was be mean to her. She would get upset and still the next day try to be friends with them. They finally went to far in their meanness and I lost it.

I am imperfect. :(

[treestar]

25. I would love to know what is wrong with these bullies

they ought to be psycho-analyzed and investigated. Something has to be wrong with someone who acts like. Society does not seem to see them as the ones with the problem.

[ShortnFiery]

28. They are like "a gang" when together ... they get strength from each other.

Break up the clique, correct the problems with the individual girls.

The solution is simple but evasive as nobody wants to make the hard choices of splitting up this group of "mean girls."

However, separation is the ticket.

[distantearlywarning]

27. Wow...20 something posts in and no "blame the victim" speeches yet?

I'm amazed.

[seabeyond]

31. though one poster finds the girls death amusing. nt

[Name removed]

35. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[enlightenment]

32. My child was horribly harrassed from 7th to 9th grade by a

posse of girls who sound identical to this bunch of thugs. She was awkward and a bit overweight, not sporty at all and uninterested in 'girlie' stuff. They were the perfect, favored princesses of the school; pretty, sporty, involved in all the 'right' things . . . and three of the nastiest monsters I have ever had the misfortune to meet.

After my kid came home in tears, with a note from the principal telling me she had been suspended for stealing, I reached my last straw. Questioned my kid, who said that one of the girls had accused her of stealing a bottle of make-up out of her gym locker; the teacher, who was also the girls basketball coach (and all these little angels were her star players) opened my kid's locker without her even knowing about the accusation - and lo and behold - found the makeup bottle positioned in full view. The lockers, by the by, did not lock.

My kid denied knowing anything about it until the teacher descended on her, full of accusations and righteous rage. She was sent home immediately.

I went to the school and requested to speak to the girls. Denied. I asked that the principal at least ask for my kid's side of the story. Denied. That evening, as I contemplated my next move, the phone rang. It was the parent of another child, who had told her parents that she had overheard the three girls laughing and joking about getting the 'fat freak' kicked out of school. The child - and I hope she has gone on to great things in her life - offered to share that knowledge with the principal, which she did the following day. Once she stood up, several other student's also came forward and admitted hearing the girls talking about the set-up. Faced with the numbers, the girls folded and confessed that it was "just a joke".

The principal told them they had to tell my kid they were sorry. I told him that was insufficient and unless he wanted to face a lawsuit, he would call an assembly of the entire school and the girls would admit their guilt - and offer their apology - publicly. That's how it ended - that year.

The following year, in their first year of high school, my kid arrived at her locker to discover that 'someone' had poured oil through the ventilation slits in the door - and written 'Die you fucking bitch' on the door in red marker. The high school principal was not impressed and immediately called in the three girls. After interrogation, one confessed to the 'prank'. She was expelled.

A couple of years later, another one of the girls called my kid and apologized - they eventually became friends, of sorts. I give her credit for that. The other two? They probably married their male counterparts and are in the process of raising another generation of monsters . . .

I have NO tolerance for bullying. None.

[coyote]

40. Thanks for sharing.

As a parent of a now toddler, I hope I never have to go through this.

[hlthe2b]

41. One thing I have found in life...

is that there are often many cowed, yet honorable people that will come forward to do the right thing, if only given the chance. I'm glad that your daughter found that to be the case as well.

[enlightenment]

48. My kid learned a lot from the experiences of bullying -

all things that have made him (he's trans) a better person. As someone above noted, there really is something to be said for teaching your child that meanness is never the solution. Because we (as a family) had little recourse until things escalated - nasty comments and such don't seem to register as bullying for school administrations - I had to teach my child to learn to let things go, like 'water off a duck's back'. We talked about possible reasons why these girls acted the way they did, and I worked on keeping his self-esteem from tanking.

As an adult (he's 29 now), he is a patient, loving, giving young man. I don't take credit for that, because he is the one who had to learn the lessons and decide to use them in a positive way - but I am very proud to know him. He's not flawless - no one is - but he's a nice person.

This was in Grand Junction, by the way - West Middle School and GJ High School. I sometimes wonder if smaller communities bred more of these disfunctional brats - or if it just seems that way . . .

[hlthe2b]

57. Thanks for the rest of the story, so to speak

It is good to hear he has moved well past this trauma. Your skillful parenting, no doubt, was the critical factor.

Grand Junction.. Well, I think there is concentrated "intolerance" in smaller communities, but having been the product of larger suburban schools myself, I don't think most communities are immune.

I wish all young children who suffered at the hands of bullying had such loving and intelligent supportive parents to fall back on. I know that I never confided in my own parents incidents that I faced--which were pretty pale in comparison to many kids, I guess. I really don't think my parents would have known how to handle it, but then, again, I never gave them the chance. Yet, to this day, when I read stories like this, it brings those horrible feelings right back... That's the thing with bullying--no matter how seemingly transitory or mild, it leaves scars.

[Edweird]

101. Good for you. Way to stand up for your kid. I hope she learned from the experience.

[Number23]

108. I'm sitting here clapping and cheering for you

I told him that was insufficient and unless he wanted to face a lawsuit, he would call an assembly of the entire school and the girls would admit their guilt

HELL YES! Your daughter is lucky to have you. I'm the mother of a three year old with another on the way, and the idea of having someone treat my children this way is one of my greatest nightmares. Thanks for giving me some ideas on how to handle this if it ever happens.

[WriteDown]

140. AWESOME. nt

[raccoon]

164. Good for you!

"The principal told them they had to tell my kid they were sorry. I told him that was insufficient and unless he wanted to face a lawsuit, he would call an assembly of the entire school and the girls would admit their guilt - and offer their apology - publicly. That's how it ended - that year"

[Jennicut]

37. I went to a high school where the mean girls ruled.

It was in CT, not really different then the school in Mass.
Snobby attitudes and money dripping out of the parent's pockets.
I couldn't wait to get out.

[Arugula Latte]

153. Me too. It was horrible.

I came across an old yearbook this weekend and made the mistake of flipping through it. It's hard to describe the feeling of being kicked in the gut that washed over me -- 26 years after graduation. The sick feeling lingered with me the entire day. It's amazing what power that time in our life has over us.

[State the Obvious]

38. I was always irritated at the way Bush got away with his "childish" bullying...

...without his base demanding more adult-like behavior from a president. (Didn't Bush have a nickname for everyone he worked with? including world leaders?)

Do you have any idea how much "mocking" is despised in the Bible...and yet the party that claims to have "Christian values" embraced this despicable behavior in their president!

I understand more and more what Obama meant in his inaugural speech about "now that I am an adult, I must put away childish things." Bush never did.

[Craftsman]

43. FIGHT BACK!!!!

I was the fat zit faced kid in high school and was tormented from the beginning of 6th gradeto high school graduation. One of my gretest regrets is I did not end it early. I was afraid of punishment for fighting back, now I wish I would've just laid into them and let it fly. Bullying is not fun if the it becomes work. They move on to other victims. My advice to all who are bullied: FIGHT BACK!!!!!! Don't get mad or depressed, get even. ;)

[cali]

45. it's different in situation like this one.

how do you fight back against vicious lies that are spread via the internet?

[Craftsman]

47. Find what the treasure and take it out.

Slash their tires, write in bleach on their parents grass the same remarks they made just to name a few. Everyone has a pressure point, find it and squeeze. And I guaranty if this were my girl I would be hunting now.

[distantearlywarning]

55. I agree fully.

If there is one lesson I learned from my own junior high experiences with bullies, it's that nothing will ever change if you ignore it or get visibly sad about it (like gasoline on a fire to people who get off on causing pain). And that lesson carries over into adulthood, because high school bullies become 35 year old bullies later.

If this were my kid, there would have been serious consequences for the mean girls the first time anything happened. A lawsuit is certainly one possibility. But there are other options, some of which you have named.

Bullies like to bully easy targets. And they're often terrified of having their BS perpetrated on them. Sometimes they're just terrified of having their behavior exposed, so simply making a giant public scene is enough to solve the problem.

The one thing I would NEVER advise a parent to do is tell a kid to ignore the problem. Bullies just get more determined if they think they're not getting through to a target.

My bullying stopped entirely the day I woke up at age 14 and decided that the next person who fucked with me was going to seriously regret it. I never even had to put any physical action behind that decision - something about my demeanor after that time was enough of a deterrence that the assholes went elsewhere.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

59. Fight bullying with bullying, eh?

If the bully commits suicide, do you turn yourself in for murder?

[Craftsman]

63. No you fight back, By the best means possible

make it know if left alone they will be left alone. If not what is good for the goose is good for the gander. It is the only way to stop it.

[Craftsman]

66. School bullies like targets of opportunity. If they see that their target has teeth, they generally

[reggie the dog]

252. sometimes you need to fight fire, with fire

fight fire with fire fight fire with fire fight....or so said some heavy metal band that used to be cool but should have retired a few albums ago....

[Craftsman]

60. Always fight back. It does not matter if you loss or win, if you become work to bully

they move on to easier pickings.

[TxRider]

73. Always worked for me

[hlthe2b]

61. So, you'd have the child risk being arrested for vandalism?

in the name of "fighting back?"

[Craftsman]

64. You have to do what you have to do

Ideally it is best just of get behind then in the hall and sucker puch them in the kidneys as you kick their knee out from them, but if you have no other options beats killing yourself.

[LanternWaste]

220. I have few doubts you are both clever enough and wise enough...

I have few doubts you are both clever enough and wise enough to realize that physical retaliation is among the most weakest and inefficient of ways for a person to dissuade others from bullying them.

If nothing more than a wished-out, visceral fantasy response, no problems. But applying your method in the real world often creates more problems than it solves.

[ohheckyeah]

235. I'm going to disagree.

I have found that standing up to bullies is the only way to deal with them. I remember a gang of girls from high school who roughed my youngest sister up. There were three of us sisters at school and all of us were really small. The gang started harassing us one night leaving a football game and the three of us turned around and told them to go ahead, but even though they might kick our butts we were going to make them feel some pain first. As a matter of fact, one of those girls is married to a guy who is a good friend of my husband.

They walked away and were nice to us the rest of our time in high school. That's just one example.

I don't like violence and wouldn't have enjoyed a fight but I didn't like being bullied either. The experience taught my sisters and me a great lesson that served us well....one sister had a husband who thought he would smack her around. He found out real different, real fast.

[reggie the dog]

254. it actually worked for me 2 times

once when I was making fun of a kid for being a chink and he knocked out a tooth (lucky for me I was 11 and it was not permenant) and another time later on when I was being bullied.

[NashVegas]

210. Grow Up. Take Risks

And take control of your life.

[reggie the dog]

253. sure and teach them not to say anthing to the cops

and I would bail them out, and pay for their lawyer too. So long as my kid is fighting for what is morally just I will back her through any legal problems she gets into.

[reggie the dog]

251. find the author of them

and punch them in the mouth.

[krabigirl]

88. I fought back. The bullying didn't stop for quite a while, but I fought those fuckers.

I wasn't going to let them take me down.

[CBR]

102. Me too. Noone picked on me for a long time. My Dad just told

me to "hit em in the mouth." I did not often (maybe once or twice) resort to "hitting them in the mouth" but I always told them to STFU and turned it right around on them.

[proteus_lives]

92. Yep.

It's the only way it ends.

[Initech]

93. Exactly - don't get mad, get even.

[tabbycat31]

111. in my school it was not possible

I was bullied to the point where I was scared to go to school from 4th grade- HS graduation. Small school, impossible to change your reputation. When I fought back, it was ME who got in trouble for everything.

My school's policy towards bullying was similar to telling a rape victim "you shouldn't have worn that dress."

[bluestateguy]

124. Pissant school administrators don't let kids fight back anymore

and that is a shame.

I hate public school administrators.

[Craftsman]

147. If no matter what happens you face the same punishment as the attacker

make it worth your while. After all freedon is another word for having nothing to lose, and if you must pay the band enjoy the dance to the fullest.

[HughBeaumont]

181. Yes, because as we all know, EVERY bullied kid is physically able to defend themselves.

:eyes:

No trouble to the victim or revenge by the bully or his pack will ever result from it either. SURE thing.

:eyes:

Did anyone ever stop to think that some kids just don't WANT to fight? Did anyone ever stop to think that no matter how much self-defense advice you take from well-meaning adults, it isn't going to matter if you're 5'8" and weigh 135 and the bastard picking on you is 6'1", sociopathic, doesn't care, is likely high on cocaine and is likely a way faster and better fighter than you are?

Did anyone ever stop to think that some kids just want to live their lives?

More importantly, does anyone ever stop and think that the perfect situation where the bullied kid can just fight back, beat up his tormentor (which often doesn't happen) and not get into any trouble for it whatsoever just does not exist? Eyes are everywhere. There's NEVER a situation where you're fighting and no one sees it. That's part of the bully's M.O. . . . an audience for his domination.

I mean, HELLO!! Did the thought of grabbing a chair or a bike chain or a bat or any other weapon to blast these fuckers' grills with until they couldn't talk anymore ever cross my mind? I'm pretty shit sure it did.

It's just that I knew all too well about how school administrators work. Most of the people who bullied me were teacher's kids. Who's word are they going to take? Who's the community, the herd, going to believe? The "four eyed marching band fag" or the exemplary honor student, son of the teacher?

I'd have gotten sent to juvie in a fast heartbeat, the school would have been glad with one less psychopath on their hands, my life would have been ruined even worse than it already was and the assholes would continue . . . to be assholes.

That's reality, kiddies.

[reggie the dog]

258. a gang of bullies jumped my buddy in high school

and stole his gold chain, whith a pendant on it given to him by his mother, just before she died. These bullies were bigger than us, atheletes, we didnt give a fuck because old Tom was hell bent on getting his gold. We rounded up a dozen people to go up against their half dozen, they fled, we hunted the fuckers down one by one at their houses, showing up with 6 or ten of us on bmx bikes, wearing leather jackets hiding baseball bats inside, with kids with saggy pants hiding bike chains, and we just let tom take the fuckers on one by one until he got his gold back. Then he went for the leader. they brawled to a draw one on one with all of his and our friends watching. We saw them at a party later that night and THEY NO LONGER FUCKED WITH ANY OF US INVOLED IN THE WEEK OF SHIT

[backscatter712]

292. I willingly took detentions and suspensions to give bullies their come-uppance.

Fuck it. It's worth it.

Detention for punching a bully in the mouth? IT'S WORTH IT!

Suspension from school for a week for getting in a fist-fight? IT'S WORTH IT!!!

Expulsion, time at juvenile hall for grabbing a baseball bat, breaking their fucking kneecaps, and seeing to it that they'll never bully ANYONE ever again? IT'S WORTH IT!!!

Bullies are subhuman fucks. Violence is justified for stopping their cruelty and barbarism. Yes, including lethal violence. You can't work with them when they'll resume their destruction the moment people's backs are turned. You have to make them fear you. Or you have to make them physically incapable of bullying.

That's what it takes, and it's damned well justified.

Go ahead. Hit your alert buttons. I don't give a shit.

[backscatter712]

303. If the bully's bigger than you are, ambush the fuck with a baseball bat.

Do what it takes.

[Mopar151]

315. Yeah - that's the ticket

That ADW rap won't keep you out of the Ivy League - much. (Assault with a Deadly Weapon)

[Craftsman]

329. I preferred pick axe handles

Had one guy give my grief and I pulled that and he backed off.

[Siyahamba]

234. "Ignore them and they'll go away"

The problem is, the advice bullied kids get when they report the problem to teachers, principals, any authority figure, is "ignore them and they'll go away." When you're a kid and have nowhere else to turn, you believe that. At least I believed it. "Ignore them and they'll go away" really means "I don't want to be bothered with your problem."

All this does is make victims quiet and reserved, and bullies see that as an even greater target, someone they can pick on who won't fight back. As a result of all that, I now have severe problems with self-esteem, and social anxiety that has led to problems with talking with people, even keeping a steady job, years into adulthood. I fully endorse your advice on fighting back. When no one else will stand up for you, you have to stand up for yourself.

[Withywindle]

338. Sounds nice and easy, but I tried that, I fought back--and I lost.

And that made me even more of a target than I had been before. Because of that failed attempt, they KNEW I was a failure at fighting. (which, duh, obviously -- I was a bookish kid with no interest in anything physical, so my first desperate punches born of out nothing but rage and fear were bound to achieve nothing special).

Are you really implying that only the physically brave and physically fit kids have a right to not be harrassed, beaten, and raped?

I say BULLSHIT. I don't think any kid should have to defend him/herself against bullies physically - that is what the school administrators, or in the hardest cases, the juvenile penal system should be doing--defending the mild, the weak, the studious, the nerdy, etcetera, against the bullies of the world. Because, news flash, if you're, say, 12 years old and REALLY ENJOYING the rush of power that violence and abuse gives you? You're on the fast track to be a burden on society, not the victim that so many people endorse blaming!

[jmowreader]

49. You guys want to END school bullying? There's a way but it will cost you plenty.

Get rid of school sports. All of them.

No more football. No more basketball. No more volleyball or wrestling. And no more cheerleading. Get rid of them all. Sell the equipment, plow under the football field and turn it over to the Future Farmers of America. Put the athletic trophies in a warehouse and forget your school ever had a sports program.

I can guarantee every bully, in every school in America, is a jock. Remember the wisdom of Mr. Garrison: "We treat star athletes better because they're better people." Get rid of the "they're better people" mentality that keeps the school from really punishing a bully, and they might realize these people aren't "better," they're just thugs.

[Scout]

53. and spend all that money wasted on sports on EDUCATION....

if communities are adamant that sports are so great, then they can be community-based, in the rec & ed department, or church-based, whatever.

i've long wanted to get the varsity, jv, sports out of the schools. they can have sports, but it would be more along the lines of gym class than varsity teams.

[Robb]

56. Hm.

I learned a great deal from team sports, and I never excelled in any of them. I also never bullied anyone, nor was I bullied.

...No bullying in the FFA? :rofl:

[jmowreader]

67. I'm certain there IS bullying in the FFA

My intent was to have the football terrorists stand there and watch as their beloved football field is turned into a wheat field.

[reggie the dog]

260. and the majority of the team

who are really nice guys and confident enough in themselves to not bully others get punished for the errors of the few dipshits on the team? I got fucked with by jocks in high school, but only a few of them. Most were regular nice kids who happened to be good at sports.

[dysfunctional press]

62. "I can guarantee every bully, in every school in America, is a jock."

that's absolutely untrue.
there are definitely bullies that have nothing to do with sports. a lot of them might belong in juvenile hall, and will probably make it there at one time or another. they're little more than thugs that have as much use for organized sports as they do for anything else school-related.

[reggie the dog]

261. the worst bullies at the inner city school I did my student

teaching at were gangsters, not jocks by a long shot.

[CBR]

65. Oh good grief... thanks to excelling at sports, my husband and I

both received partial collegiate scholarships. That is just ridiculous. I was also in the marching band in high school and I can tell you the band was also full of cliques (mean and otherwise). Alot of people in high school play sports -- 99% are not bullies.

[blondeatlast]

68. I can guarantee every bully, in every school in America, is a jock.

Not even close to accurate.

[Craftsman]

70. I was bullyed by a bunch of pot heads, not all are jocks.

[krabigirl]

87. wow, really? :(

[Craftsman]

109. They stopped when I used a history book to knock out teeth

This was 7th grade.

[WriteDown]

142. That's what I call hitting the books. nt

[Craftsman]

146. I ran towards me in a Wendy's parking lot just off campus

so I let him have it.

[abelenkpe]

189. Really?

That's the one crowd I'd think wouldn't bully anyone. The stoners I knew in school were a merry band of misfits too happy and high to cause trouble. Well, except the time my brother blew up a toilet with a bottle rocket. Or wrecked the car when he decided it would be fun to go 80 and then open all the car doors to find out how much the drag would slow down the car. He was a fool. But never a bully until he discovered Rush Limbaugh. Now all he does is yell and grumble. I wish he'd go back to smoking....

[HughBeaumont]

232. The druggies and potheads were some of the biggest DICKS in my school.

Only a scant few of them were OK to hang around. Most of them were assholes.

It sort of dispels the myth that "Marijuana" = "mellow, cool, accepting of others, laid back", etc. Smoking weed isn't going to make a dickface not be a dickface. He/she is going to still be an asshole no matter what they do.

The cokeheads were the worst motherfuckers. Those were usually the rich kids who could afford it and it exacerbated their meanness more than it needed to be.

[reggie the dog]

262. plenty of nice kids smoked grass where I went to school

plenty of assholes too. I was a dealer for a while and I found out that many cheerleaders, jocks etc. smoked plenty of grass. It is like alcohol, kids from nearly all the cliques do it.

[Rabrrrrrr]

281. It's funny how schools can be so different - in mine, the jocks and rich kids were bullies,

the stoners were very mellow, cool, and friendly.

Of course, I don't mean ALL jocks and rich kids were bullies, but I'd say 99% of the bullies came from that group. And many of them were the same.

But I also grew up in a community which worships sports and fears intelligence, and so the jocks were raised from an early age to know how totally important they are, and many of their actions were overlooked because they're the ones who brought home the state basketball, football, and softball trophies year after year.

So the stoners were probably so cool because they were at the bottom of the pecking order, along with the geeks, nerds, and people with brains.


(one caveat - we had two or three jocks in my grade who were actually quite smart: one to Harvard, and one to Green Berets that I remember... but they were not known mostly for being jocks. Our highest ranking jocks all failed out of colleges they got full ride scholarships to because a) they were really fucking dumb, and b) being the very cream of the crop of humanity in our small town they weren't ready for finding out they were shit and got into drugs). I laughed each time I heard of yet another of our City's Greatest Heroes Ever failing out of college and throwing everything away. Ha ha!! Fuck 'em.


Other schools it can be the top musicians who become the bullies - I have a friend who's school was like that.

Every school is so different, and so depends on the community. I've met many jock kids from communities that don't worship sports anywhere near like my hometown does, and they're pretty normal, functional, and quite friendly, and some have complained about being teased by the other kids because they're good at sports.

I'd say that's a rarity in the US, though. We are a sports worshiping country (as is, it seems, much of the world).

[Odin2005]

71. I agree. Youth sports should be the responsibility of the local government, not the school district.

I was brutally bullied by my school's top football player. he never got punished because if they punished him he would not be allowed to play football.

[Mopar151]

222. My story is something like that.

The irony is, once I left that world behind, I've gone far further in sport than these losers ever have.

[krabigirl]

86. +1,000!! Seriously, enough with the school sports!

So tired of the jocks running the schools. No money for education? Bullshit!!! Cut the sports! If those parents whine, let them find a private school.

[reggie the dog]

263. why punish kids for the few assholes?

punish the assholes even if that means the team will probably lose. Kids should learn that from sports anyway, that you have to play by the rules or be sanctioned and should also learn that it is better to play clean and lose than play dirty and win. I played soccer for 16 seasons (8 years spring and fall) and was a pretty good midfielder and some years on some teams the de facto team captain. It taught me confidence, leadership, how to read other peoples' intentions....how to lead without letting my ego run amok, how to organize a team based on the strenghts and weaknesses of the units. How to help even the weakest units succeed where they could and help to boost their self esteem. How to stand for what is right even if it means denouncing your own teamate for racist taunts, intent to break an opponents leg etc.

[tranche]

89. I get it. The jocks gave you atomic wedgie after atomic wedgie...

but calm down. Sports programs don't create bullies, and taking them away from hundreds of thousands of kids across this country is not going to help anything.

[Mopar151]

228. But school sports enable bullies

Because it gives school administrators added incentive to protect the bully, and gives a feeling of privilege to the wrong kids.

[fishwax]

90. no, not all bullies are jocks, and getting rid of sports won't get rid of bullies

Not even close on either count.

[proteus_lives]

91. That's bullshit.

Some of the worst bullies I knew in school had nothing to do with sports.

You've got quite a chip on your shoulder.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

94. Of course.

It's collective punishment.

Bullying at a Nazi level.

[reggie the dog]

266. exactly

playing sports has a positive role in the lives of most kids who play them, and most kids who play sports are nice.

[Throd]

95. I was bullied by stoners for the most part.

[bullwinkle428]

191. Delinquent stoners, in my case.

[JI7]

98. what crap, many bullies have nothing to do with sports and aren't even always popular

kids.

[anonymous171]

103. I'm sure these girls were all quarterbacks. nt

[jmowreader]

149. From the article:

"The Mean Girls are pretty, and popular, and PLAY SPORTS.

So far, they appear to be untouchable too."

- - - - -

"What kind of message does this send to the good kids? How many kids haven't come forward to tell what they know because they see the bullies walking around untouched?"

I think you'll find that ALL bullies are members of one clique or another. Sports team, pot-smoking club, whatever.

[progressoid]

155. AND they are pretty. Maybe we should ban all the pretty girls too.

[LisaL]

107. Well that's ridiculous.

A lot of kids are already overweight, and you want to get rid of sports?
Playing sports doesn't make someone a bully.

[Kievan Rus]

118. I agree 110%. And I'm a pretty big sports fan

[ibegurpard]

123. Nah

people, especially unevolved neanderthals like teenagers, will ALWAYS find a way to put a pecking order in place.

[bluestateguy]

125. Oh please

I knew plenty of bullies who wouldn't know how to play a sport to save their life.

And I also knew some athletes in high school who stood up to bullies on behalf of their weaker classmates who were being pushed around.

You don't know what you're talking about.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

127. Wrong

I was bullied by a few kids, and not one of them was a jock. As a matter of fact, more than once a jock was the one who stepped in to back me up. Most of the bullies in my school wouldn't be caught dead participating in any extra curricular activity.

[mistertrickster]

130. I beg to differ. As a four year letterman in wrestling, it is the anti-bullying drug.

You never find wrestlers who are bullies or who bully.

When you basically fight for 3 hours a night, you don't feel the need to prove anything to anybody.

[HughBeaumont]

173. Boy, could I win money from you.

EVERY wrestler in my high school was a hot-head violent dick. EVERY SINGLE one.

. . . and so were most of the football team, basketball, baseball, the popular stoners, intramuralists, drama people, show choir, etc.

Small-town Ohio is no place to grow up if you're not tall dark and handsome, inclined to music and just want to be left alone.

[mistertrickster]

201. The wrestlers were tall dark and handsome? Usually, they're short and skinny. nt

[WriteDown]

141. And all art supplies!

Look at what a freak Van Gogh was!

[TheCML]

187. ugh.

I can guarantee every bully, in every school in America, is a jock.


No you cannot, I was bullied to a certain extent in high school and the only thing that saved my ass was being friends with a 300 offensive lineman who also played dungeons and dragons and listened to Rush. There were plenty of bullies at my school who weren't jocks, and there are plenty of coaches who wont stand for that sort of thing and enforce good attitudes and community service. As a matter of fact I got tackled and punched in the hallway one time and the coach of the varsity football team heard me talking about it, he pulled me aside and said if I didn't want to get them in trouble he understood but if they did it again and I fought back he would be on my side if I got in trouble. He was a good man and kept his players under control.

[Rabrrrrrr]

216. I disagree with "every bully is a jock", but I wholeheartedly agree with tearing down the sports.

Spend the money on educating the kids and getting them involved in activities and programs that ANYONE can be involved with, not just some elite few.

And if people really want to have school sports for kids, let them start up independent fundamentalist Christian sports schools that teach Creation Science and that Jesus loves jocks and finds it hilarious when jocks beat up smaller/weaker people. They can all grow up to work in some shitty business or as janitors or whatever worthless, shit job the vast majority of ignorant jocks grow up to work in.

There really is no legitimate, compelling, pedagogical reason for schools to focus so much money and time on sports at the expense of stuff that actually matters.

[Rabrrrrrr]

218. But on the other hand, I wonder if the sports things is a conspiracy of the intelligent and mature.

That is, that people who are actually intelligent and mature decided long ago "Hey, our schools should have sports teams - that way, the fucking ignorant and worthless will have something to focus all their energy on so that they'll grow up to be stupid and incompetent and forced to work the factories and do the shit jobs that we, the smart and capable people, don't want to do."

Could be. If we cut out the sports, then who's gonna fill all the shitty jobs that the failed, ignorant, miserable, uneducated jocks currently fill?

Maybe we should pump even more money into the sports programs!

But, no, we shouldn't, because the downside of the whole thing is that, while creating a hefty labor force for the elite to exploit, it also creates a huge demographic of imbeciles who think Palin is great, Rush Limbaugh is Christian, and Pat Robertson speaks for Jeebus.

[reggie the dog]

268. you are so full of yourself

as if there are not informed, intellegent people who play sports. Brian Urlacher? do a google search if you never heard of him or what he has done for the community he came from. and he is just one example. Sports are fun, they offer a place where we can be competetive without hurting others economically. People who play sports are not worthless, they just happened to be better at their sports than the kids who did not make the team, so be it, there was park district sports for those of us not good enought for the school team (i played park district basketball in high school because I was not good enough for the school team.)

[reggie the dog]

267. health, fostering school spirit, creating a sense of community

I teach in France where there are no school sports. People think it is strange that I run the school debate team (12 kids in the international section, mostly from the USA and the UK). It is sad that kids come to school just to learn, then go home. Sports and clubs create a sense of community, a little world for teenagers.

[Rabrrrrrr]

270. Clubs, maybe; but the "sense of community" via sports is a rather exclusive (and closed) community,

and rarely one that fosters good mental health or social adaptation - mostly it sets of a community of hierarchies (based on nothing more valuable than "sports skill") or utterly ludicrous geographical tribalism, and usually both.

When your debate team (and the orchestra and drama guild and chess team and forensics team and etc.) gets daily full page coverage in the local newspaper and the kids playing sports get a token quarter page once a semester, then I'll start thinking about changing my mind. When the community comes out in droves to listen to a debate (or hear a concert or see a play or watch a chess tournament) and the football players have to sell candy bars because so few people come to their games and the school doesn't finance their uniforms, then I'll begin rethinking my position.

This country values crap and crapifies everything of real value, and anyone with their eyes open knows it.

[reggie the dog]

275. it is not the sports, or the kids playing sports

it is the fact that sports are the news people would rather follow because, I think, most people think politics is corrupt and that sports are the last honest thing out there. At any rate the football uniforms are paid for by ticket sales. Some kids are good at chess, some at football, some at both, we should have clubs and sports after school. Why exclude kids who may be horrible at debate, but who are great at soccer? What is wrong with girls learning teamwork and self confidence by playing softball? What is wrong with letting kids who play sports well make the team and play for their school? It is taken as an honor by many, as is playing for ones city at the pro level. Most kids take it seriously and are not assholes.

[apocalypsehow]

238. As a former starting linebacker in high school, I sense the reeking envy through the pixels.

It's easy to paint all "jocks" as bullies, but I doubt there are any more "bullies" in the world of jockdom than there are in the school populations as a whole.

What I suspect most of this ranting on "jocks" is about is that partly thanks to their accomplishments on the field, they are better known, i.e., more "popular," and also very few people tend to "bully" them in turn thanks to their athletic ability. Don't even get me started on the more numerous trips to the back seat "jocks" tend to undertake. This stimulates even more envy which often smolders for a lifetime, I reckon. My 20 year HS reunion had some notable instances of it.

This is what drives much of the resentment of "jocks," I've noticed over the years.

Edit: grammar.

[reggie the dog]

269. yeah, it was easier for the football players to get laid

but I really didnt know what they hell i was doing in bed anyway in high school. College on the other hand......

[Rabrrrrrr]

273. I'm confused - what does "more numerous trips to the back seat" mean?

Do you mean that it's the high school jocks who experience more than others a metaphorical trip to the back seat of no longer being the center of attention once they're out of school?

Or do you mean that jocks get more sex, the fabled "back seat of the car"?

Or something else.

I followed everything else you said, but am stymied by that sentence.

[reggie the dog]

277. i'm leaning to the jocks getting laid more

I think that may or may not be true depending on the position they play. It could just be that more people heard about it.

[apocalypsehow]

294. You'd be leaning correctly, also on the "position" business. By my (admittedly anecdotal) recall,

it went like this:

1. Tight End.

2. Running Back.

3. Right & Left Tackles.

4. Linebacker Crew ( :thumbsup: Heh.).

5. Defensive Ends.

6. Quarterback.

That was the order of "star" to "backseat" ratio at my High School. A former classmate of mine actually worked up a chart of this and posted it on our FB "homepage" for my HS. I would provide a link, but since I started both my junior and senior years and my name is attached, that would be the end of my anonymity at DU.

Also note that, contra the cliche, the "Quarterback" didn't make the top five. I don't know if that says something about the cliche, or something about my High School, or a combination of both. :shrug:

But the bottom line I return to is: there were no more "bullies" that I can recall on my squads, all four years from JV on, than in the regular percentage of the population of my High School. Not that you were making that argument, but I thought I'd throw it back out there.

[susanwy]

310. lol

funny...swimmers never got laid, even though they ran around mostly naked all the time.....

Susan :rofl:

[apocalypsehow]

312. Well, uh, we *had* a swim team at my HS, and uh, I dated one of the female members whose speciality

was the backstroke, and we uh...see, I had this Cutlass Supreme with a big backseat and we got to swapping spit and clambered over it and...*ahem*...:blush:

Never mind.

:evilgrin:

[susanwy]

316. ha!

:rofl: :rofl:

Did I know you about 25 years ago? I was a backstroker....

Susan

[apocalypsehow]

290. #2, though there definitely is something to #1, now that I think about it. I had to compensate for

not being a "star" linebacker in my medium-sized town high school by morphing into a Frat Boy once I got onto the big, bad campus in the wicked city.

Come to think of it, there were a bunch of former "jocks" from all sports in that pledge.

[Mopar151]

317. An awful lot depends on the coaches

And by high school it may be too late.

[GreenPartyVoter]

255. No, they aren't all jocks. I was bullied by some kids who didn't really do much of anything.

[reggie the dog]

259. school sports are not the problem

have the sports but point out that they are not better people that they are just better atheletes. Sports are really good tools to teach humility, class, and fairplay.

[susanwy]

289. oh, BS

Are some bullies jocks YES, but not all. That is just an absurd generalization.

My son was a star athlete, swimmer, he WAS never a bully and actually stood up to the ENTIRE team and coach when, in his senior year, a fellow swimmer came out and admitted he was gay. He gave the most incredible speech I've ever heard about respect for all and how it isn't our job to tell someone else who to love and how he would remain this boy's friend.

The biggest bully in my son's senior class - a poor kid with bad grades and nothing to feel positive about so he set out to make every one else miserable. He about took my son's arm off one day at lunch, ripping it across the table because he thought it was funny my son's shoulder hurt after swimming 10,000 yards. We ended up with medical bills, physical therapy and a really scary few days where we thought all my son had worked so hard for, in that aspect of his life, was lost. The administration DID nothing....oh it was just boys being boys. His mother (a single Mom) flew at me in a rage and told me I always took things too seriously. We have known this kid since grade school - it is obvious where he got his behavior patterns. I actually feel kinda sorry for him, he did not have the advantages my son had in many ways. His Mom was a right-wing, born again type, and a bitch. A few weeks later a swimmer got suspended for jumping up in the hall and hitting an exit sign and cracking the plastic - destruction of school property. the message, school property was more important than the students.

Plus - things HS sports taught my children:

1. Hard work
2. Commitment to team work
3. Respect for authority (referees, coaches)
4. How to get up in the morning (5:30 am practices, ouch, I had to drive them)
5 The joy of winning and the agony of defeat (seriously)
6. How to move past defeat and try again
7. Friendship and doing something for the good of all, not just your self.

I was bullied as a child and young adult - by jocks and by tough girls (who were most definitely NOT jocks). I most definitely was not an athlete (a shy nerd who found drugs and alcohol "helped" me cope - took me years to figure out that does not work). You just can't generalize like that, it is far too complex a problem. Kid's bully because they are looking for validation, even if it is negative validation. Gangs are an out-growth of bullying - are all gang members athletes? This is a logical fallacy.

BTW - are HS sports emphasized too much? Absolutely, but it is wrong to eliminate them entirely. A good administration will put academics over athletics every time. But we don't always get good Administrators. I would not trade the time I spent traveling to meets and competitions with my children for anything. These are some of my fondest memories as a parent. My son finished All State in all four of his events at the State championship his Senior year (and the team won the State title) and turned down two scholarships for swimming. After HS, he knew his priorities lied elsewhere.

Cheers,

Susan

[distantearlywarning]

51. Like others in this thread, I went to a high school with a "Mean Girl" clique.

It had a "Mean Boy" clique too. From the outside, it looked like a great highschool - in a wealthy tax district, full of white kids, good football team, high test scores, etc.

On the inside, there was a horrible, poisonous atmosphere. Everybody was unhappy, even the mean people, who had to watch their backs too lest other mean people take advantage of any momentary weakness. There were daily fights between rival cliques, and verbal and physical harrassment of weaker students was a daily occurrence in the hallways and locker rooms. It was awful. The school administrators were totally in denial about everything. It was like a beautiful shiny apple with a rotten core.

I transferred to the "bad" (read: lots of brown faces, a vocational program, and a mediocre sports program) high school in town after my sophomore year. It was one of the best life decisions I ever made. All students were valued there, not just the jocks and the princesses. Cliques were minimal, and inter-clique rivalry was almost non-existent. Football jocks said hello to the brainiacs, cheerleaders partied with the theater geeks. My junior year, a guy with a green mohawk was elected Homecoming King, and he got to sit up there next to that years reigning pretty princess. It was awesome and fun.

Interestingly, my grades went way up the year I transferred (from a C- to As and Bs), and my attitude about school and life improved tremendously. Creating a positive social atmosphere helps some kids academically and psychologically - who knew?

But hey, that's just one person's anecdotal experience. This post certainly shouldn't deter anyone from blaming victims of bullying, or denigrating anyone else's criticism of the cultural status quo in American high schools. Please, continue to ignore the Mean Girl problem. I mean, jeez, why would America need kids to succeed and be happy in public schools or anything?

[MattBaggins]

106. Full of white kids you say... Sounds great

[Eric Condon]

171. If you don't understand the point she was trying to make,

then you obviously don't know much about the psychology of stupid, ignorant snobs, many of whom (not coincidentally) turn out to be the parents of these kinds of bullies.

[HughBeaumont]

207. Sounds a lot like Vermilion, OH in the 80s.

Loaded with either drug-addled suburban white kids, rural racist white kids, rich condescending white kids, athletic asshole white kids . . . I'm not even going to get into the shittiness of the females . . . and an ignorant administration and staff to either turn their backs on it all or worse yet, join IN.

[badgerpup]

58. A wish for all Mean Girls (and Boys)...and it's a dangerous one.

"May you grow. May you evolve enough as a human being to realize and understand the consequences of your actions. And may you live long, that you have adequate time to contemplate them."

Can you imagine the horror of realizing that YOU ARE DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for pushing an innocent person over the edge into suicide?

Knowing when you look in the mirror (both the one on the wall and the one in the soul) you will see your self...the shallow, malicious, death-causing self...the self you cannot get away from because IT IS YOU, every day for the rest of your life?


Yeah, that really IS a nasty wish.
Especially since it can rebound.

[renegade000]

75. This is why we need a criminal justice system based on rehabilitation and not retribution.

If someone is truly "rehabilitated" and instilled with a functioning moral sense, they'll feel remorse and agony proportional to the heinousness of their crimes for the rest of their lives. We'd release people accused of violent crime only after they've reached this point. Then they can choose to either hide-away from the society they've wronged or go out and try to educate the next generation and steer them away from destructive paths. It would certainly be more productive than just treating prisoners like vicious animals in a zoo for our own short-sighted sense of self-righteousness (and then sometimes releasing them as even more disturbed individuals!).

[brettdale]

272. I agree

Its an awful thing to say, but I hope when they elave their high school and as an adult they releaize what they did.

[Odin2005]

69. DUpe.

[Odin2005]

72. I have PTSD from bullying and I am furious that NOTHING is done about it.

I go into a panic attack if I see someone waving a towel around because I got whipped so much with wet towels in the locker room, among a lot of other things including flashbacks and nightmares.

Those "mean girls" should be charged for manslaughter or something similar.

[lpbk2713]

78. Seems like there should have been a safety net of some sort.

A young girl coming from a different culture should have had someone to look out for her and protect her from the predator types. I doubt that this all happened in the blink of an eye. Students and teachers have always seemed to find out through the 'grapevine' about what is going on. This poor girl died because no one was concerned enough to protect her IMHO.

[Mopar151]

231. Her parents probably trusted the school to keep her safe.

[rasputin1952]

81. What a sad story...

and those responsible for her suicidal thoughts have no shame...this is sad...:(

[dugaresa]

82. I was bullied in school until the day I beat the living shit out of the kid doing it

i was on honor roll and a big time girl geek.

I put up with a lot of bullying. Kids would hock luggies in my hair, they would torment me to no end.

One day I am getting ready to get off the bus to go to my house and this girl assaults me.

Something in my head snapped and I beat the shit out of her and her friend. I was screaming every obscenity on the planet and the locals who lived at the bus stop corner stood in shock as I was the "nice quiet girl".

I couldn't sleep that night. I remember not wanting to get on the bus the next day, but I did.

My mother called the school, the bully's mother called the school.

Three of us got detention but I tell you this, I never got teased again and they gave me my space.

Only had one other problem with a kid and I took off my shoe and whacked him across the face with it. He had a bad reputation in the area and later after graduation he went to jail.

Now that is how I handled it as a kid of 14, but by high school I moved between groups, Jocks, Geeks, etc. and enjoyed the experience.

on edit, i just can't help but read that article over and over again and it just brings back those old memories. I just feel so bad for her parents and for her.

[grace0418]

83. This story made me sick to my stomach. I was the victim of a lot of bullying growing up

and all those feelings came rushing back when I read this story. I never seriously contemplated suicide, but I definitely used to fantasize about horrible things happening to the guys and girls who did this to me. I also used to fantasize about moving to a different school and starting over. I finally got that chance in college, and those four years were the first really happy ones in my whole life up to that point.

And people wonder why I don't go to high school reunions or want to friend people from grade school and high school on Facebook. It was not a time I wish to think about if I can help it.


RIP Phoebe. I wish I could've been there to tell you how much better it gets after high school, and how all those mean girls peak in sophomore year and end up losers who never make anything out of their lives.

[krabigirl]

85. Same here. Hugs to you.

I was beaten, called names, everything. Why? Because I was unpopular, but a popular guy liked me. The mean girls couldn't have that.

I remember being at a party (even though I was bullied, I did have plenty of friends and we still went to parties), and was ganged up and beaten by 4 girls and ONE GUY. I punched a bunch of them in the stomach, and I showed up to school the next Monday. They were all in shock. I guess one of them stayed home, because I hurt her pretty badly. I had a bruised lip, but was too proud to stay home.

And the worst of it? My parents punished ME for being bullied!!!

[grace0418]

105. Thanks. Same to you.

No kid should have to endure this. It affects you for the rest of your life.

[krabigirl]

84. :( This is so sad. It pretty much happened to me...I did fight back though.

No, they didn't stop bugging me, but I wasn't going to let them make me want to kill myself. :( I feel sorry for this girl. If it happens to my kids, I will homeschool them. Not everyone can fight bullies and keep their sanity. I am not even sure how I was able to do it.

[Jkid]

96. Just disgusting.

These functional sociopaths need to be in a real woman's jail. Not only the harassed and tormented this girl to the point of suicide, they spoke ill of her after her death. And for what for being a freak?

This is a good example of why bullying exists, intolerance of difference.

[flvegan]

97. I beat the shit out of our neighborhood bully after he beat up my brother.

Neither I nor my brother were ever bothered again.

Nevertheless, this is a horrible tragedy and in the wake of her death what those little monsters did by mocking her. Someday, punishment will hopefully find them.

[TxRider]

115. Yeah I got a few for my younger siblings as well

I learned to respond to bullies with out of proportion psychopathic levels of violence at the drop of a hat.

[flvegan]

116. My brother was older

If someone beat up my little brother, I'd probably have killed him.

[JI7]

99. these girls must be really messed up

to continue it even after she died ? this is not the usual bullying people are used to from before the internet.

[Kievan Rus]

117. I've said it once and will say it again: the high school "in crowd" is a lot like the KKK

[mrbarber]

119. THis nasty little hitler bitches need a first class beatdown.

Here's hoping there's a nice helping of cancer in all their futures.

[Sultana]

120. :(

RIP, Phoebe

[mistertrickster]

126. We don't need laws. We need family. Where was the girl's parent(s), siblings?

Anybody treated my kids this way, they'd be talked to.

If that didn't work, they'd be dealt with.

[mistertrickster]

128. BTW, anybody got any names of the bully girls. Once the cyber-punks get ahold of these wenches,

they'll find out what bullying really is.

On edit--I hope they like pizza. They'll be getting 200 delivered pizzas every night. And once they get that cleared up, they'll never get another pizza delivered to their houses in their lifetimes.

[FedUpWithIt All]

131. Usually there is a "Queen Bee". They can be cold little animals.

It is scary having an adolescent these days.

My second daughter was one of the kids that the main "mean girl" liked to keep as a satellite. My daughter was the new girl and this girl decided, because they actually do decide these things for those around them, that she was allowed into the group, so to speak.

From there, as we got to know the people around us, things started to become very concerning. This girl kept her friends in line through the most unbelievable type of psychological manipulation. She would mock her friends and encourage the other girls to do the same. If the mocking caused the girl to begin to pull away she would sort of turn her undivided attention to that girl, the girl would become her "favorite" but only for as long as it took to bring her back into the fold, then she would remove her attention, causing confusion and near pleading from the ignored girl as to the cause of the sudden change. This went on repeatedly and with nearly all the members of this group in their turn.

Getting angry about the things i saw happening i began to seriously confront the situation with my daughter. Word got back to the girl, and from there her mother, that i had reservations. Her mother called me to confront me. She told me that she could not understand my feelings about her daughter. She told me that the girl is sweet and kind. I explained to her how my own daughter had been mocked and insulted by her daughter and how it had been happening to many of the kids. I explained that this was enough for me to feel that they should have less contact. The mother seemed shocked and asked that i allow the girls to remain friends. I relented to her and when i got off the phone i explained to my daughter that contact would have to be only under certain conditions. The first and foremost being that she tell me if she continued to see people being manipulated and especially if anyone was attacked in any way.

My daughter was from then on relegated to the fringe of this group. I was pleased with that turn of events but the problems got worse before they got better. Time and again my daughter would have "discussions" about it. My daughter, having ALWAYS been taught by me that i will never tolerate hurting others, was feeling torn.

As a side note, it was around this time i was offered a position as one of the parent counselors for the 6th grade camp. The parents were placed in a cabin that was not the same as the one their child was staying in. My daughter was placed with many of the girls that we had been having the issues with. I was with a different set of girls. It was incredibly shocking how little regard some of these children had for authority. They would deliberately do the exact things they had previously been told not to do and with no concern over the fact that an adult knew it...when they were in their "group". When confronted by school staff they would simply lie. By the end of our time together things had changed a bit but i remain stunned at the level of disrespect these kids had.

Meanwhile, over the course of the next year or so, my daughter was seeing things that she knew were wrong (things like snubbing, laughing at people...)and so she would come to me about it. She came to me and told me how some of the girls were forming groups that were sneaking diet pills and refusing to eat(7th grade and i called the school). I was relieved that she was telling me things but the moment i would suggest that i wanted her away from this group she would flip out. She would go into a sheer panic. It was really scary for me to see. She insisted that her life at school would be over. She said she would be a total outcast. I would suggest that she find a different type of group to hang out with and she would cry that i just didn't understand.

At some point, she had a mini breakdown, for lack of a better word. It was then that she had an epiphany. She said to me that she was tired of being an object that revolves around the whims of the "queen bee". She had seen the way the girls treated others and did not like it. She also began to take to heart my advice that other kids might be more open to her once they stopped associating her with this girl and that it might open up new, more pleasant, friend opportunities. The girl did not stop being a part of my daughter's life, mainly because she would not have it, but she did play an increasingly limited role. After a time, and after four suicides in a year and a half (mainly due to bullying) at the high school my older daughter attended, we moved.

My middle daughter, she is 12 now, was recently the subject of some mistreatment from an old acquaintance online. She showed me what the girl said, told me that she didn't understand what the girl's problem was, told the girl that she was done speaking to her and promptly removed the girl from her list. It was an improvement.

These years can feel like a minefield. The cruelty can be deadly and the kids are so vulnerable. My heart breaks for the family of the girl in the OP.

[winyanstaz]

132. Those girls need about three years in a girl's school.

and about ten in an adult prison.

[AsahinaKimi]

133. I think I was lucky

That my dad put me into a Kendo class when I was young. later on in high school, I was amazed to see our school had a Kendo team and I joined and improved my skills.

But because I was short, I was picked on by a few, including this one kid, who had it out for me. One day, while I was walking home from a late Kendo class, he jumped in front of me and told me, he was going to take my Shinai away from me and beat me up with it. (**Shinai is the bamboo sword used in Kendo.)

Well he tried, but I simply whacked him on the nose with it, and broke it. Fortunately there were witnesses. I was suspended a day, he was suspended a month. My father was not to happy about it, however later I found out though my mother he was telling all his buddies about how he was proud his daughter had "The Samurai spirit."

[Dorian Gray]

134. Some human beings are rotten to the core

the lack of empathy after poor Phoebe's death is truly horrifying to me.

[StreetKnowledge]

139. Good Lord.

How about we get some juvenile hall sentences for these witches?

And mocking somebody in Death, after directly causing it? These girls deserve to be slapped hard enough to rattle teeth. :mad:

[Jefferson23]

143. This sort of channeled group stalking is a crime, or should be considered one.

RIP dear child.

[Dappleganger]

144. Our 13 yr. old daughter is homeschooling because of bullies from last year.

This is an A-rated school (we've had two older kids go through there). We thought we were going to move from the area but the position fell through, so instead of putting her back into a bad situation she's doing the virtual school online from Florida. She's returning in the fall, however, and we hope that things will have settled down by then.

One girl found our daughter's character online in a popular rpg site and was harrassing her, but we got her IP banned from the site when we turned in the chat logs to their owners.

[havocmom]

150. Queen Bees, Wanna Bees, now Killer Bees seem to be increasing

and they ain't just on campuses. Hell, they ain't all young either.

[LeftinOH]

151. Among those mean girls is a ringleader - just one girl- and even her entourage won't dare

cross her. Whoever she is, whatever her name is -she's there, in school today, and her circle of meanies is right there with her: Her second in command, the fawning chorus, etc- there's a whole pecking order. All the kids there knows exactly who she is, too.

[undergroundnomore]

152. We just had

a facebook incident at our school which involved three girls jumping another girl for something she wrote on Facebook. While this happened off school grounds, we had to bring the girls into counseling to try to make sure the victim was safe while at school. None of the girls were in my class and even if they were I couldn't give too much in the way of specifics.

I will say that cyber-bullying bumps the playground bullies up a few notches. More people have access to what is being said about the victim and some try to garner popularity by agreeing with the bully.

I'm not saying that MySpace of Facebook causes bullying. What I'm saying is it really increases the impact upon the victim as it's quicker and easier for the rumors and threats to get out into the community.

This is a very sad situation and the world has lost a young woman whose goals and dreams will never become a reality.

[grahamhgreen]

156. It is critical to ask if the child was on anti-depressants that can cause suicide.

"On Sept 14, 2004, an FDA panel voted 18 to 5 to require manufacturers of all antidepressants to add black box warnings to their product labeling. A month later, the FDA adopted the panel's recommendations. The warning reads in part:

"Antidepressants increased the risk of suicidal thinking and behavior (suicidality) in short-term studies in children and adolescents with Major Depressive Disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders. Anyone considering the use of or any other antidepressant in a child or adolescent must balance this risk with the clinical need. Patients who are started on therapy should be observed closely for clinical worsening, suicidality, or unusual changes in behavior."

[Jester Messiah]

157. Retribution.

If it were my kid who ended up hanging herself, there would be some. Just saying.

[earcandle]

158. Listen to what the Grannies say about bullying!

Noodling About in San Francisco 2005

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8yxbEGAauc

[Dappleganger]

160. A bunch of links to articles with more information on the story

including updated info on two of the teens who are being displined for incidents related to Phoebe's bullying. One student actually assalted another student just after she gave an interview to a news crew! These parents and school admins are in so much denial it's beyond believabe.


http://topics.masslive.com/tag/phoebe-prince/index.html

[Johnny ramone]

163. What a horrible story !

Those "Mean Girls" are total sociopaths !

[RubyDuby in GA]

170. That poor girl -

"Phoebe’s family decided to bury her in County Clare. They wanted an ocean between her and the people who hounded her to the grave."

And that is probably still not far enough. The depravity of some pathetic, jealous individuals is astounding.
Also, turnabout is fair play. It's time for those little bitches to be hounded everywhere they go. I'm thinking a billboard with them on it and their crime would be a good start.

[distantearlywarning]

180. I think someone should send this story to 4 Chan.

They might be interested.

[Posteritatis]

185. Interested in supporting the bullies, maybe. (nt)

[distantearlywarning]

192. I dunno.

Last year they went after that asshole who filmed himself beating the shit out of his poor cat.

Sometimes they do seem to find the desire to point their weapons at deserving individuals.

[StreetKnowledge]

296. And these witches deserve it, but.....

4Chan is about as predictable as a F5 Tornado. I wouldn't want to introduce them to this case.

As for the poor girl, this should have the parents going to the school board and demanding explusions and criminal charges, or they'll go to the media and blast this case nationwide, preferably complete with the names of the girls responsible. How fast would the school board cave in to that threat? Milliseconds, tops. I don't blame the parents for wanting the girl buried back in Ireland, far away from the people who caused her death.

[NashVegas]

175. The Newspaper Doesn't Dare To Name Those Girls

That's your first reason why they get away with it.

[Dappleganger]

186. Because their parents are attornies and at least one of them

has a father who's a cop. Money and power will get you everywhere.

[NashVegas]

203. You Have to Stand Up

At some point, people have to take the risks and name the fuckers, and shame them.

[ellie]

245. Somebody will

squeal their names. Give it time.

[benld74]

177. From the St. Louis Area - Similar, Just as Sad, But a twist - A PARENT WAS Harrassing!

Megan Taylor Meier (November 6, 1992 – October 17, 2006) was a North American teenager from Dardenne Prairie, Missouri who committed suicide by hanging 3 weeks before her 14th birthday. A year later, Meier's parents prompted an investigation into the matter and her suicide was attributed to cyber-bullying through the social networking website MySpace. The mother of a friend of Meier, Lori Drew was later indicted on the matter in 2008, but in 2009, Drew was acquitted



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Megan_Meier

[mainer]

184. What about a little shame?

Post those girls' identities and photos on Facebook. Set them up for some harrassment from the public.

[Dappleganger]

188. I doubt that would affect them.

what need to happen is they are prosecuted for harassment and put this 'bullying' label to rest and call the criminal acts for what they are.

[Guilded Lilly]

198. Some would feel shame, some would celebrate the celebrity.

Absolutely prosecution to get the ball rolling towards a wider intolerance of this kind of behavior. It IS criminal at that level.

However, few bullies can survive alone. You get a bully standing by themselves and they tend to fold. Reinforcement and peer pressure add to their power. Standing alone, they wither a bit. But the gang mentality...and how to break that up...I don't KNOW the answer to that one. It is, on the level of this kind of bullying, very heartbreaking and frustrating. There are a lot of single bullies who understand the power of banding together, perhaps so they themselves aren't victims.

Break the cycle,
prosecute and publicize as much as you can.

[BenjaminFranklin]

202. totally agree

Someone knows who these little bitch "mean girls" are. These little bitches should be outed so that people can express their disapproval of what they did.

[backscatter712]

264. Post 'em on 4chan!

I guarantee you revenge will be had... :evilgrin:

[Jkid]

274. Post 'em on /b/

Fixed. But then again they'll say "/b/ is not your personal army" So I suggest you don't.

[backscatter712]

280. Yeah, they can be a fickle bunch... n/t

[Mithreal]

195. The least we can do is rec this. Thank you.

[Gman2]

197. Bullying is just not necessarily minority discrimination.

With zero tolerance, both the bully and the victim get in trouble. Fight back? No way. When I grew up, I was the skinniest kid in school. I got tons of bullies, including whole gangs. It got so bad, that my parents told me that they would back all my fights. They said that if I didnt fight back, they would beat me. So, I knocked every bullies ass out. I had hundreds of fights. And never lost one. Nowdays, I would be expelled pronto. Even to this day, I CANNOT back down, to anyone. I have taken out crooked judges. Cops, teachers. Anyone that tries to discriminate against me. Obviously, I would have gone farther in school, if I didnt have to fight two days a week, minimum.

[Peregrine Took]

199. I wish there was a website where we could write the names of bullies.

Even from decades ago - I still remember their names. As they would say on "Seinfeld" - they are tattooed on my brain.

Ironically, I received a letter from a reunion committee this summer and several of those girls were on the committee. I bet they didn't even remember the incident as they hand wrote out my address. I tore it up.

[Hello_Kitty]

200. I bet either Rush or Stern was on the radio every morning when those girls were driven to school

Why wouldn't you think it was cool to mock and belittle people who are weaker than or different from you if it's what the most popular figures in entertainment are doing?

[Fleshdancer]

204. My daughter is 9 and I've already started this conversation with her

I don't recall the "mean girl" phenomenon when I was in high school, but I've read enough on the subject to be concerned for my child. We talk about why it's not ok to be the "mean girl"...I would be horrified and devastated if I found out Abby turned into that.

So there are two things I wonder about:

1. As a parent, what do you do if you find out your kid is being bullied like this?
2. As a parent, what do you do if your child turns into a little beast?

[salib]

205. There's a bill for that...

Kucinich gets ridiculed for his "Department of Peace" legislation, yet this sort of incident is one of many which would be targeted by it:

From the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_of_Peace):

This bill includes several additional proposed mandates which would work in partnership with the U.S. Department of State and go beyond the existing mandates of the U.S. Institute of Peace. Some highlights among the areas of proposed additional responsibility include:

* Provide violence prevention, conflict resolution skills and mediation to America's school children in classrooms as an elective or requirement, providing them with the communication tools they need to express themselves beginning in elementary school through high school.
* Provide support and grants for violence prevention programs addressing domestic violence, gang violence, drug and alcohol related violence, and the like.
* To effectively treat and dismantle gang psychology.
* To rehabilitate the prison population.
* To build peace making efforts among conflicting cultures both here and abroad.
* To support our military with complementary approaches to ending violence.
* Monitoring of all domestic arms production, including non-military arms, conventional military arms, and of weapons of mass destruction.
* Make expert recommendations on the latest techniques for diplomacy, meiation, conflict resolution to the US President for various strategies.
* Assumption of a more proactive level of involvement in the establishment of international dialogues for international conflict resolution (as a cabinet level department).
* Establishment of a US Peace Academy, which among other things would train international peace-keepers.
* Development of an educational media program to promote non-violence in the domestic media.
* Monitoring of human rights, both domestically and abroad.
* Making regular recommendations to the President for the maintenance and improvement of these human rights.
* Receiving a timely mandatory advance consultation from the Secretaries of State, and of Defense, prior to any engagement of US troops in any armed conflict with any other nation.
* Establishment of a national Peace Day.
* Participation by the Secretary of Peace as a member of the National Security Council.
* Expansion of the national Sister City program.
* Significant expansion of current Institute of Peace program involvement in educational affairs, in areas such as:

1. Drug rehabilitation,
2. Policy reviews concerning crime prevention, punishment, and rehabilitation,
3. Implementation of violence prevention counseling programs and peer mediation programs in schools,

* Also, making recommendations regarding:

1. Battered women's rights,
2. Animal rights,

* Various other "peace related areas of responsibility".

[Mad_Dem_X]

206. God damn it

I can only imagine the pain that girl's family is going through right now, especially the younger sister, who found her. Has the school talked to the bullies' parents? What do they have to say?

What a tragic situation. My heart just breaks for that poor girl and her family. :cry:

[Dinger]

208. This Is Heartbreaking

Here is what I posted in LBN on this topic:


This is so sad, and as an elementary school teacher, I have to say that this is an issue (bullying) that I work on in our classroom, and in our school. We do have an anti-bullying program here, and things have improved, but it does still happen. We are constantly evaluating our program and making changes where they are needed. We have family nights too, where families and community members are invited in and the topic is bullying. We have age-appropriate books and articles for the children, as well as activities to take part in (like role playing). We have morning meetings, and there have been many times where the topic is bullying (we don't single anyone out - we focus on the problem when we're in a group setting). We follow through and keep communication open with families. I personally leave my cell phone (and school phone) for parents to contact me if they have a concern or a question, whether it's bullying or any other issue. In 21 years, I have never had a problem (Prior to cell phones, I gave my home phone). I try to do everything I can to stop this cruel abuse that happens so often in our schools. Thankfully, I have a relatively small classroom, so I can deal with most problems immediately and individually, as needed. In a larger classroom, I am pretty sure some kids would fall through the cracks, and that would break my heart.

[rvablue]

209. Horrible!

[BenjaminFranklin]

211. TMZ or The National Enquirer should use their talents

Why not use their awesome powers of investigation to find out who these little brats are? I'd much rather know the identity of the bullies than who Tiger Woods or John Edwards was banging.

[reggie the dog]

213. If my daughter was ever such a bully

I think I would take away all her technological devices, her car, her computer, ipod, phone, plus her makeup. I would make her watch me give all her designer clothing to the salvation army. I would (I hate this but I would have to be drastic) buy her a new wardrobe from walmart and such stores, ground her for months, shave her head and tell her to fucking leave my house if she did not like it.

[distantearlywarning]

226. I feel the same way.

There are very few things a child of mine could do to disappoint me in them as a person, but this is at the top of the list.

I would NEVER allow my daughter to behave that way, and there would be extremely serious consequences if I ever found out that she was.

[Fleshdancer]

249. yep...only I would buy school uniforms

white shirts and either navy or khaki pants. No make-up, no nail polish, no gadgets of any kind...basically she'll have a bed, a desk, a lamp, her uniforms, and books. She would also be forced to write a five page apology and then hand deliver it to the person she bullied in front of me and the parents of the other kid. After that, my daughter and I will have a lovely time visiting the home of her friends that joined in to discuss the situation with their parents. If it was very bad, I would consider family counseling.

I'm not a queen and I have no interest in raising a spoiled princess.

[backscatter712]

285. Not Walmart... Goodwill!

Make her go to school looking like a bum!

[Mopar151]

320. Don't go for tthe shave. Too distinctive.

Military women's haircut. Low maintainence.

[fl_dem]

221. This is unacceptable

each and every adult that knew this was happening failed this child!

[TheMightyFavog]

229. Kids are assholes. But eventually they grow up.

But once these girls grow up a little, they might just realize what they have done, and will have to live with the guilt, horror and regret for the rest of their lives.

My 10 year reunion was a couple years back. I was hoping that a certain person (I'll call him Adam)was going to show up. The poor kid was the bottom of the pecking order at out small town high school, and went through absolute hellfrom all of us starting in junior high. I'll admit that even I picked on him from time to time. I was hoping he'd show, just so I could apologize to him for the shit I put him through. Adam didn't show, and I don't fucking blame him one bit.

[Echo In Light]

279. And become good, 'normal' Americans. Fucking puke.

[Skittles]

291. you know, it's not too late for you to track Adam down and make amends

it's obvious it has stayed on your mind

[brettdale]

237. That is too sad

I beleive its a good idea that they should look at the autopsy photos.

[RedCloud]

239. off with those bullies heads. They will be republicans anyway!

[reggie the dog]

240. external or internal rage

I dont mean to make light of what has happened, only to point out that this girl internalized her rage. One day one of my buddies in high school, who was mildly mentally and physically handicapped (he talked with a strange voice, limped and was a bit slow but he fit into our crowd of misfits and metalheads just fine) was the victim yet again of bullying from a few jocks whee called him a retard or something mean and threw and apple at him. It hit him in the head and he got so pissed off that he threw the can of soda he was drinking at the car, it went in the window and smashed up against the bully's little sisters face.(I had never ever seen him throw the football directly to us so I guess it was pure chance) She was an innocent victim, my buddy limped up to apologize to her and her brother was going to beat him up except his sister told the bullying brother that it was his own damn fault for being an asshole in the first place. In all honesty I never saw that guy bully anyone again. Did his sister tell the parents what happened? Did he actually have a conscience?

[skyounkin]

241. I hope the Irish embassy

gets involved.

This is an horrific act.

[BenjaminFranklin]

243. everyone concerned should get involved

Write that town's paper and express your disgust with what happened and your expectation that the guilty will be punished for their role.

[GreenPartyVoter]

257. That poor sweet girl. Bullying is horrific. There should be zero tolerance not just in schools

but by society in general.

[brettdale]

271. These so called girls must be hold accountable

Isnt their some sort of manslaughter charge?

[dflprincess]

293. You would think

the high school my nieces went to would suspend a girl if they caught her with Midol in her purse - zero drug tolerance don't you know. I'll be the high school these girls went to have a similar drug policy, but harassing a fellow student until they commit suicide? Then the school's hands are tied.

I'm not buying it.

[NavyMom]

282. The first time it happened the school should've called all the parents

involved for a meeting and let them know this is unacceptable and if it happens again your child will be suspended for a week anything after it will become a part of their record.

After my son turned in a kid for having a knife at school then he was bullied, but since he is 6'2" (at 14) it was always a gang of them after he beat down the first two. I requested a meeting with all the kids involved parents had the principal along with head of security for the school district give them hell. Once the kids left the room I told ALL these parents that I love my son just as much as they love their children, but if ANY one of these kids mess with my son again I WILL FUCK THEM UP and they will pray for death. After this he was bullied only once more so I told him to beat his azz I don't care if he is smaller than him, then I called his dad to tell him what happened and he needs to talk to his son before someone really hurts.

[brettdale]

286. Do schools listen to parents?

Or are they too worried about the schools reputation.

[backscatter712]

283. I'd wish I had phenomenal telekinetic powers so I could go Carrie on those bitches! n/t

[devilgrrl]

322. I spent my entire high school years wishing I had those powers.

[brettdale]

284. kick

kick

[brettdale]

288. kick

kick

[backscatter712]

295. There are some cases when violence is justified. This is one of them.

Beat those little snots within an inch of their lives.

You can't work with bullies. You can either make them fear you, or make them incapable of bullying. Don't tell me that you can take them to the counselor's office, chat with them and have them singing Kumbaya. It doesn't work. Neither does telling the bullied "Just ignore them and they'll go away." You have to resort to stronger means...

[susanwy]

298. This is very sad...but this thread is a little scary

Phoebe did not deserve to have her life cut short in this manner, no one does. My heart aches for her parents.

But - for a progressive board I'm a little shocked at this thread.

Let's see the two main themes, besides heart wrenching sympathy for this poor girl, are:

Blame the parents - no matter what and fight violence and negativity with violence and negativity (nice).

Look - some parents suck, there is no doubt. But you can't just lay this at the feet of parents as a generalization. Teenage kids are very capable of behaving one way around Mom and Dad and another at school and socially. It is the nature vs nurture argument...some people are just less empathetic, this is a provable genetic trait, just like shyness or assertiveness, all driven by brain chemistry. Now, can those traits be affected by nurture - yes we can learn to be more empathetic or less shy or more assertive. Some people benefit from medication to help balance their particular genetic brain chemistry. In addition, some parents are really stressed trying to keep a job, pay the bills, maybe take care of aging parents, etc etc. It isn't always easy to keep the lines of communication open with teenagers. Not all spoiled rich kids are bullies and not all poor kids are saints. Really the generalizations are astounding in their inaccuracy and lack of understanding of complex social interactions and how we as society can deal with them (which we are not very effectively). It is just too easy to stereotype the school jock or the poor mean kid.

I had four siblings, three of us turned out pretty good, but one did not. He had problems, real problems and he ended up dead in a car wreck at 17. Is it my parents fault? NOOOO, and it took them years of divorce and forgiveness to realize that my brother had a mental illness. Did the mean girls who did this awful thing have parents who tried to teach them right from wrong, empathy and caring for others? I don't know, but I've learned that nothing is always that easily explained. NOTHING, and being judgmental without knowing any facts is just wrong. Someone up thread mentioned the Columbine shootings. Did anyone read the interview with one of the mothers of the killers a few weeks back? If you didn't search for it, I think it was in Harper's magazine...it was gut wrenching. This parent wasn't perfect, but she clearly tried to raise her son to the best of her ability and was ashamed and devastated at his behavior. And, she loved her son. Now don't get me wrong, these girls should be punished - expelled (not just suspended) and have to have court supervised FAMILY therapy for a while, a long while. Maybe someday they will grow up to be better adults, for the sake of the human condition, I hope so.

My son was bullied, as was I long ago. I ALWAYS told him not to react, it would just feed the bully's validation. I took it to coaches, administrators ect. One coach, a man I respect, told the whole team he would forfeit every game if the bullshit did not stop and the team did not behave as a team. It stopped, and then that coach moved away (bummer). Sometimes it helped, sometimes it made it worse. I heard every cliche -boys will be boys, it makes them tough, the mean comments are just blowing off steam....it always infuriated me but I NEVER encouraged my son to do these same actions in return, NEVER. I always told him to just do his best, find friends by seeking out those who believed as he did (you know like joining amnesty international in HS), and above all DON'T withdrawal, keep trying, keep trying to see the best in people and find the joy in life. Stay involved in school, in his community etc. HS would not last forever and in 10 years he would be knocking down beers at his HS reunion with some of the bullies (the ones who grew up). Look up-thread and tell me if you think this paid off.

Cheers,

Susan :hide:

[Malikshah]

299. Progressive does not mean laying one's neck for slaughter. Progressive

means responsibility for oneself and for others.

Anger, channeled effectively, is just as effective as sitting down and playing mind games.

Action is what is called for, and for many bullies, shame isn't the answer. Denial of luxuries isn't the answer. Collective punishment isn't the answer. Unfortunately as Progressives one should be aware of this.

If this all sounds very generalized and broad brush-like-- then .... think about using the collective "as a Progressive board" moniker.

These bullies need to be held responsible for this action. Scared straight tactics are not enough.

[susanwy]

306. I'm not sure you provided an answer...

What Action exactly? Should these girls be drawn and quartered in a public square? Put to death themselves? I would imagine they will have very personal consequences as well - like guilt - at least I sincerely hope so.

I said they should be expelled and have to attend court supervised counseling - perhaps as part of a court ordered sentence. But, realistically what can a prosecutor charge them with? Perhaps the best we can do is charge them for a violation of Phoebe's civil rights. Isn't that what the woman who did similar bulling that lead to a suicide in Texas was charged with? And who should her parents file suit against? The bullies parents? The school? The local law enforcement? All of the above?

You say you want "Action" but you fail to define what you feel should be done.

What in my post suggests anyone should "sit down and play mind games"? I don't even know what you mean by this, or are you taking a shot at mental health counseling? My son did not "lay down for slaughter", he simpled never rose to the bait and learned that HIS self-esteem did not depend on others, especially those who are self-centered and egotistical. I think I taught him that violence begets violence and that peace can propagate peace and forgiveness fosters forgiveness. There have been a few others that believed this as well, Gandhi & Nelson Mandella to name a couple. I do not believe this philosophy is wrong, and I do believe it is progressive.

It is one thing to make a generalization about a board that defines itself as progressive: favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties. I also tend to think progressives are more for peace and tolerance and a sense of collective responsibility for our fellow humans - but if that is too much of a generalization for you, then so be it. It is another to paint all parents of kids who do bad things as completely to blame.

Susan

[Malikshah]

327. My answer is that action must be taken to make sure that

1) the miscreants are made aware of the heinous nature of their acts
2) the miscreants are made to make amends for their acts

Expulsion and counseling are merely part of this process. Some would focus on monetary recompense, most of which would go to lawyers.

Me, I would vote for incarceration in a juvenile detention facility with hard labor until they are eighteen years of age. They will have a permanent record of this as well that will not be expunged upon reaching eighteen years of age.

This is all premised on their being tried and found guilty of their crime.

Tarring and feathering are mob tactics.

The process should be followed, however. Monetary recompense will do them or the victim's family no real good.

The "blot" on their record should stay permanently. After all, Phoebe cannot be resurrected; in that case, their crime cannot be ignored.

[Pithlet]

302. I wish I could rec a post in a thread.

I was bothered by the posts that generalized and wanted to blame the parents, too. I think maybe some who are parents are especially comforted by that idea. It's easy to think you can just automatically do all the right things and everything will be okay. Sometimes kids bully, and they do it for different reasons. I've always said that highschool is like its own little very complex society and it can be very rough. Bullying should absolutely be punished just as you say. Sometimes, even the parents of the bullied drop the ball, too. They don't see the signs, or if they do they don't handle it the right way. They buy the meme that bullying makes a kid tougher, for instance. Of course I'm not referring to the parents of the girl in the story when I say that. I have no idea of the particulars of that story.

It was shocking and appalling to read how these girls reacted to the suicide. But I suspect it's their way of coping with what they've done. They're going to pay for this for the rest of their lives. They're going to have to live with this, and I think they realize that. This is their tough bravado covering that up. When they've grown up some and come to fully realize what they've done? That's when they really pay for this mistake.

[backscatter712]

305. The problem with telling kids not to react to bullies.

IT DOESN'T WORK!!!!

Bullies provoke, because they're seeking a response.

What happens when the target follows Mom's advice and ignores the bullies in the hope they'll go away?

They escalate. It gets worse and worse until a response is forced.

When bullying occurs, intervention is required, be it by the victim, or by authority figures. If the authority figures have their heads up their asses, then the victim has the right to respond in such a way as to make the bullying stop. By. Any. Means. Necessary.

[susanwy]

308. Another generalization

My son was bullied - he did not react. Not to say HE NEVER reacted, he did a couple of times and that is when the bullying escalated. He figured out then that HIS efforts to take "revenge" backfired. As soon as they knew their actions caused my son pain, they went at it harder. I also intervened with some parents and that did seem to help, some parents just didn't know their child was being such an ass. Others told me to fuck off. The best thing I ever did was intervene with other kids. I got a couple of "jocks", if you will, to realize that by laughing along with the bully they were facilitating the damage to their teammate (in this case) and that would not help them win games. A couple of the guys matured, on the spot almost, and began to tell the bully to knock it off. Now, I realize this case is different, but keeping kids involved in activities helps them find allies.

I agree - intervention is required when these tactics don't work. I tried everything to intervene when my son's got physically hurt, but the school, the authorities did nothing. But, in some cases it will stop if the "victim" does not respond. Although, I don't see people as victims in these cases, just targets. To me the last resort, if the bullying had not stopped, was to pull my son out of school and home school him....but I didn't have to take it that far (I did threaten).

Your last line is what is truly disturbing: By. Any. Means. Necessary. Are you advocating murder? or What?

One last comment - I was lucky, my son talked to me about what was happening...he allowed me to guide him and teach him. Not all kids will do this (my younger son certainly won't), and not all parents are capable. And the danger is they get so depressed, so beaten down by the bully that they kill themselves. I KNOW my son thought about it, he told me and I immediately found a licensed counselor for him to talk to about this very serious thought process. Sadly, for Phoebe, it seems the intervention to stop the bullying and to help her cope was not available, for what ever tragic reason.

[Name removed]

311. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

321. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

325. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[distantearlywarning]

332. Ignoring it and not reacting doesn't work.

It was the advice my parents gave me too. They just escalated until they got a reaction.

The only thing that worked for me was fighting back.

[varelse]

300. There's a book (and an author) I would like to recommend for those seeking answers

and preventative measures for this terrible and heartbreaking, but all too common tragedy:

http://www.amazon.com/Odd-Girl-Out-Aggression-ebook/dp/B001TRE9M8/ref=dp_kinw_strp_1?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2

[BenjaminFranklin]

307. a bully only understands force

I don't subscribe to that Pollyanna crap, Susan. Bullies only respond to what they dish out and if a child has to endure a butt kicking to make the point that their butt is going to have to be kicked in order for the little punk bully to push him or her around, so be it. If that child gives as good as he or she receives the bully will piss off and find someone else to pick on. Bullies do what they do because they can. It's not hard to make a bully stop; punch the punk square in the face as hard you can. You ever see "A Christmas Story"? Watch little Ralphie pound the hell out of the red-headed little jerk that bullied him around. All of that rationalization of "ignore a bully" is exactly the stereotype the conservatives paint us liberals pink with. Screw that screw those little punk "mean girls" that bullied that poor child into suicide. And oh, yeah, Bump this thread for great justice.

***Self Edited because this post was extremely swear word heavy.

[susanwy]

314. Your right....

it is pollyannish. My husband certainly thought so...and he did tell my son to "punch the punk square in the face", those exact words I think, with a swear word or too! In the end, my son listened to both positions and made his own decision.

But, I just never thought it would do much good. Both kids would be suspended, perhaps just my son, because the bully would profess innocence. And my son would have faced other consequences, like suspension from the team and not achieving what he worked hard to accomplish. Would that feeling of revenge be worth it? He had to make that choice.

I'm pretty pollyannish, obviously disgustingly so. But my son, well he kills with the best of them on xbox these days! Maybe that is where he takes out his anger. :hi:

[varelse]

326. Who are you calling "Susan"?

the author's name is Rachel Simmons, and the book is the result of many hours of research and interviews with school age girls, both teens and pre-teens.

[BenjaminFranklin]

333. if you can't figure out who I'm replying to...

chill the hell out.

Bump this thread.

[BenjaminFranklin]

345. bump

this thread shouldn't just disappear.

[varelse]

347. You replied to me

although your reply was neither relevant to my post nor was it coherent (or very useful).

[BenjaminFranklin]

352. gfy

then ignore it and move on.

[scheming daemons]

318. If this were my school district, I would be in the principal's office demanding expulsions

Whether or not my kid was a victim.


I have a 15-year-old daughter...


These little bitches would have their names publicized all over the freaking internet if it were up to me. Make them unacceptable to colleges.

Ruin their fucking lives.... and then... ruin their parents' fucking lives.



Sorry, I'm vindictive about this shit. These girls need to made examples of.... badly.

[Withywindle]

319. I was gang-raped at age 11

Held down, pillow over my face, thinking I was going to die, screaming and screaming but with no sound. And at the same time, forcibly vaginally and anally penetrated with fingers, lots of laughing and humiliating language and profound insults about the worthlessness of my very being. At the very end, I got pissed on, and then we went to sleep. I couldn't rock the boat. They were my "friends."

Who did this? Other girls, 10-13 in age.

This has nothing to do with the internet or texting or "sexting" or cable TV; this was in an isolated rural community in 1980. Just a slumber party. As far as I know, no one's parents ever knew--except mine, I finally got around to telling my mother when I was about 25.

I've never felt particularly safe in "womyn-only space" for obvious reasons. This isn't to exonerate boys from the shit they do, but I know from hard experience that once a girl is ranked bottom of the totem pole, other girls can be just as dangerous and brutal and disgusting as any male.

I got sexually abused by men later, but no man ever hurt me nearly as much. Just sayin', just wanting to tell my story.

[FedUpWithIt All]

323. Thanks for sharing your story. I am sorry you went through that.

:hug:

[Withywindle]

324. Thank you.

:hug: It was a long time ago. I've done therapy, the whole bit.

I just don't want anyone thinking that bullying is less severe when girls do it, or that child-on-child crime is any less damaging to its victims than any other kind.

[ddeclue]

328. NO we DON'T need "anti-bullying" laws - free speech is more important.

and there already ARE laws against throwing cans at people - it's called ASSAULT.

:eyes:

[Jakes Progress]

330. No kids? nt

[ddeclue]

334. But I WAS a kid who was bullied - the only way to deal with bullies is to fight back.

[Withywindle]

335. Yeah, did you not see my post just a few up?

I struggled, I fought, I bit, I punched, I kicked....but guess what...they overpowered me easily, because they outnumbered me (and because I was a nonathletic bookworm, which probably contributes the reasons why they targeted me in the first place), and then they did what they wanted.

What happens when you fight your heart out, and still get defeated, beaten down and raped (literally as happened to me or emotionally as happened to this girl)?

I thought it was only right-wingers who looked down on victims and blamed them for their pain. Guess not.

[ddeclue]

336. even "bookworms" have friends... fight back.. stop nanny stating my First Amendment to death.

[Withywindle]

339. I ain't nanny-statin' nothin' - I oppose smoking bans, for fuck's sake.

I just want to know who's going to defend people who try to fight and still get beat up.


My post from down-below was about my story of being a girl who got gang-raped by other girls. When you're 11 years old, with a pillow held over your face to the point where you think you're going to die, that has nothing to do with desire for a "nanny-state." That has everything to do with being a child and understanding that the greatest danger to your life is...other children.

I'm not good at fighting. Never have been. It's not one of my talents. Not like I haven't tried. I'll hit anyone who comes after me wildly - but I'm pretty uncoordinated and have bad balance, so I expect any assailant will likely win.

Does that mean I DESERVE to be beaten? On the contrary - I think all the bad karma of assault belongs on the person who STARTED it.

[Jakes Progress]

341. "Fire!!!!" "Fire!!!"

Yeah. That was fun.

[Pithlet]

344. Exactly. I guess all laws pertaining to harrassment should be stricken, too, with that logic.

Completely nuts.

[Pithlet]

343. What crap.

Telling children they cannot bully is not infringing anyone's first amendment rights. You are off your rocker.

[BlueStater]

340. This story made me sick to my stomach.

I can't believe people like this inhabit the Earth. How can anyone possibly be so fucked-up morally and mentally?

As a person who was bullied in school, this hit right at home. I never was once suicidal but I did have the occasional homicidal thought towards my tormentors.

[happy_liberal]

346. How does this relate to politics?

I realize that our politicians are not literally physically beating any of us...but what they are(or are not) doing is destroying millions of lives. They are indirectly responsible for the deaths of thousands of people every year, from lack of health care to people killing themselves because their home was being foreclosed on, from elderly people being forced to cut their medications in half to homeless disabled veterans made homeless and hopeless due to their illegal wars and horrible policies.

What can we do to stop the bullies in our government. From what I am reading here playing nice doesn't work, ignoring them doesn't work...what are our choices here?

[RoadRage]

351. Remember the mom who pretended to be a boy on facebook and caused a girl to hang herself?

This situations rings similar... mean girls instead of a delusional mom.. but bullying resulting in hanging - so the same sad end. I hope that the "mean girls" names get released like the mother's name did.. so the entire country can call and mail these girls & their families.

Kids don't grow up to be bullies.. parents either stop it or encourage it. And these brats sound like they were hoping for MTV to come swooshing in and give them a show. Reality needs to teach them the lesson that their parents never did.

[mainer]

353. names of the mean girls

these are their names circulating all over the web, posted by classmates. Apparently their facebook pages have been taken down.

Ashley Longe, Shannon Charon, Flannery Mullins & Kayla Narey (just in case you have a son who ever wants to marry one of these little monsters)