I'm sorry but Alito's behavior in NO WAY comes close to Representative Wilson's.

[ddeclue]

This is just an undeserved and emotionally charged pile on.

Unlike Wilson, Alito and his Supreme Court colleagues were directly singled out by Obama for national criticism on TV.

Unlike Wilson, Alito didn't shout like a 10 year old.

I think if anyone criticized you so directly you would have a hard time just standing there and taking it without at least denying the charge made against you, let alone if the most powerful man in the world did it to you.

That after all is all Alito did - he mouthed "that's not true". He didn't scream out "Liar" or call Obama a nasty name like Wilson did.

Yeah the court ruling was despicable but PLEASE attack him for the RULING, not for something he said in his own defense under his breath under a great deal of stress.

That said, Obama was RIGHT to call the Supreme Court out in his SOU. It was the highlight of the speech!

Now flame away!

:D

[cali]

1. well, you're wrong. the reason it does is that Alito is supposed to be

outside of political matters. Alito isn't just anyone, and yes he was supposed to stand there impassively no matter what was said. it's part of his job.

[ddeclue]

5. Actually he's a human being just like you or me and I'm sure was feeling defensive..

and NO it's NOT the same as being in HIS court room where HE would be the boss.

[JuniperLea]

20. I'm sure he was feeling defensive...

No question. The point being, he's supposed to suppress it. It's not all that hard. It's all part of being a professional, regardless of your field, to keep a poker face and not let anyone know you have an opinion. Those chosen to sit on the Supreme Court are supposed to be able to do this better than anyone. Not just in his courtoom either, always.

He choked.

[arthritisR_US]

34. lord knows, he sure kept that poker face during the confirmation hearings and

we are to believe that he couldn't do the same here? Give me a break. :banghead:

[ddeclue]

40. Come on .. a hearing by Senators on CSPAN2 vs. the POTUS dressing you down on 15 different channels

in prime time. Not. The. Same. Thing.

[JuniperLea]

56. Oh, you mean those confirmation hearings where he kept a poker face as he lied?

Yeah, that had to be all the more difficult.

It's part of his job, a very important part. If he can't swing it under any sort of pressure, he shouldn't hold the seat. Period.

[arthritisR_US]

62. yep, that's my take as well! n/t

[GinaMaria]

163. wish that were enough to get rid of him n/t

[Zoeisright]

24. There's a difference between feeling defensive and acting like a 5-year-old.

If he can't control his reactions to a speech by the President of the United States, he needs to go back to kindergarten to learn some manners.

Alito is a tool and a fool.

[ddeclue]

30. OK.. tell your boss that you want him or her to critcize you for your mistakes in public

in front of your co-workers and not in private in his/her office. See how much you like it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

57. He doesn't have to like it. But he does have to not respond.

Frankly, if my boss called me an idiot in front of my colleagues the one thing that would prove him right would be to get all emotional and start muttering things under by breath.

[ddeclue]

61. actually he DOESN'T.. he does NOT work for the President NOR is he a member of Congresss

and subject to its rules. He is a Supreme Court Justice and his own boss as Obama himself pointed out in his reference to separation of powers in the dressing down he gave Alito.

[RaleighNCDUer]

124. Tell me, are you equally outraged that Obama also dressed down

Congress for its partisan divide?

You think the Congressmen and Senators there should have jumped to their feet and made rude noises?

After all, he's not THEIR boss, and they don't have to take any shit from him.

[ddeclue]

129. I'm NOT outraged that he dressed down Congress, the Court, OR the military

I just think it is silly NOT to expect anyone to react to it. Had the Congress responded negatively I would have been even LESS surprised given that there are far more Republicans in Congress who would have the opportunity to lose their cool than on the court. Unlike the Court, members of Congress are governed by the rules of the House and the Senate when in the chamber so there are consequences to speaking out. The JCS as members of the military would have been in far worse trouble than a Congressman would have been so this also probably kept them from saying anything. Court members are not used to being treated like this and I'm sure it was far more difficult for them to hold their tongue than the other groups.

[JuniperLea]

73. It happens every day in corporate America...

That you haven't witnessed it is telling of your level of misunderstanding here.

[ddeclue]

You are truly clueless if you think you are supposed to treat subordinates this way

OR roll over and take it if you are the subordinate.

[JuniperLea]

81. Exactly...

This OP is ridiculous.

[cali]

no, he broke protocol. and beefeaters are human beings too

should they snap at annoying tourists?

[ddeclue]

65. so what? he's not obligated, nor is anyone to observe protocol.. it's NOT the law.

soldiers are under orders and I'm sure sometime somewhere a "Beefeater" has snapped under the pressure.

[JuniperLea]

70. It's horrifically unprofessional and unacceptable for someone at that level...

To behave in that manner. Period.

We can all see you'd probably cry and poo your pants, but that's not what professionals do. They suck it up until they are out of earshot and then let out a primal scream or three if need be, but never, ever in front of anyone, let alone in a setting like this.

You're thinking is seriously flawed in this instance.

[Fire1]

102. Totally agree. n/t

[ddeclue]

104. Yea I don't think so friend.. I handle stress extraordinarily well..

if you want to cry and "poo your pants" perhaps you'd like to go up in a light plane some time for a fun little ride? I'll put my nerve up against yours any day. I've saved two guys lives performing CPR on two different occasions, stopped a robbery, talked to Congressmen and Senators and gubernatorial candidates and Presidential candidates and I'm pretty much fearless. I'm also smart enough to know that I'm not normal. Most people ARE fearful and easily stressed and emotional.

The fact that you don't acknowledge that people are under stress or have emotions makes you a very poor leader or manager indeed. The fact that you simply expect people to roll over and take it makes you a bully, not a leader and one day it's going to bite you in the ass.

[JackRiddler]

128. "Horrific" - WTF?!

Gimme a break with the hyperbole.

Decision to let corporations buy all the political advertising they like: horrific.

Alito silently mouthing words while Obama criticizes him: nothing.

Get your priorities straight.

Short of disrupting the speech, he and everyone else in the world is free to react in the mode of audiences. If anything is "horrific" (ugh!) it would be the annual spectacle of the supposed leaders of a supposed democracy rising every few seconds to applaud the same old tired platitudes about how great their country and its soldiers and obedient workers and blah blah, like puppets on a string. Or mice hooked up to electrodes.

Alito mouthed some words! Yowza!

Totally bogus issue. The kind of concern that FOXNEWS normally promotes.

[JuniperLea]

130. Horrifically unprofessional...

Yes. I stand by that.

[RaleighNCDUer]

74. Going with that analogy, a Beefeater IS obligated to observe protocol,

and if he violates it he is out on his ass as soon as his shift is over.

Alito's reaction flies in the face of 200 years of protocol. It shows him to NOT be worthy of the post as one of the top jurists in the country. It exposes him to be, frankly, a fool.

[JuniperLea]

83. Exactly...

Well said, and absolutely spot on.

[ddeclue]

85. Then go join the British Army.

[JuniperLea]

86. Well, wasn't that mature...

Almost as good as "I know you are but what am I?"

[ddeclue]

90. No.. just stating the obvious.. if you want to live by insane rules of discipline find an

organization that still practices it. Nobody else is interested in it. Certainly Justice Alito didn't sign up for it and he isn't some flunky who has to sit there and quietly take it either. Constitutionally speaking, he is at the same level as the President in a parallel branch of the government.

[fishwax]

100. Alito didn't sign up for it? Who forced him to be on the Supreme Court?

If he wanted to react to the president's speech, he should have stayed home to watch and react in private.

[ddeclue]

107. OK...show me in the Constitution where it's in his job description to roll over and take it

from the President...

I didn't think so..

FAIL.

[fishwax]

110. lol -- who claimed it was a violation of the constitution?

:rofl:

Fail back at ya :eyes:

[ddeclue]

113. YOU DID by claiming it was his "job" - his job is defined by the Constitution.

so you are the FAIL here friend for not knowing that.

[fishwax]

118. where did I say it was his job?

:shrug:

You said he didn't sign up for it. So I asked you who forced him to be on the Supreme Court. Or who, for that matter, forced him to attend the SOTU. And you respond with irrelevant questions about the constitution and claim I said things I didn't.

FAIL, thy name is ddeclue.

[ddeclue]

120. Sign up for it where IT refers to the man's job. YOU DID. YOU FAIL AGAIN FISHWAX.

[fishwax]

123. IT referred to protocol. I have met the FAIL, and it is ddeclue.

[ddeclue]

134. Clearly you can't even comprehend the English language - people sign up for JOBS not protocol - FAIL

[fishwax]

147. your the one flitting from word to word -- attention span FAIL!

You said: "If you want to sign up for insane rules of discipline find an / organization that still practices it ... Certainly Justice Alito didn't sign up for it."

But Alito did sign up for it. Nobody forced him to be a supreme court justice. Nobody forced him to go to the SOTU. But the organization that he freely chose to join has these "insane rules of discipline" that say they shouldn't publicly react in a venue like the SOTU.

Now feel free to respond with some tangential fail like: "IT'S NOT IN THE CONSTITUTION! FAIL! THERE'S NO LAW!" as if anyone had claimed otherwise :)

[ddeclue]

149. You are claiming that by virtue of his job "supreme court justice" that he has taken a vow of

silence. That's simply NOT in his job description. That's YOUR CLAIM which is simply NOT true. He never signed up for a vow of silence by virtue of becoming a Supreme Court Justice. Keep trying to deflect me if you can but you've lost this round.

[fishwax]

154. now I'm claiming he took a vow of silence?

:rofl:

For the record: I never said he took a vow of silence. I never said a vow of silence was in his job decsription. I never claimed that the rules of decorum that the supreme court justices have traditionally observed when it comes to the SOTU are in the constitution. All of that is just stuff that you made up.

I don't know why you've resorted so consistently to making such things up, but such behavior naturally leads to the assumption that are simply incapable of defending your argument on its own merits.

[ddeclue]

156. NO - YOU ARE.. Apparently you have a very short attention span.

[fishwax]

160. oh ddeclue, I wonder what made-up claim you'll attribute to me next

:rofl:

[JuniperLea]

166. No, no, no! Now get it right!

The proper response is... I know you are, but what am I?

:rofl:

This thread, though pathetic, is amuzing:)

Now, get back out there... hahahha!

[fishwax]

168. lol!

"This thread, though pathetic, is amuzing :)"

Agreed :)

[JuniperLea]

171. Oh damn!

I forgot the hyphen! I think it's much funnier with it...

Amu-ZING!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

183. Where is the rule that says that?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

106. He absolutely DID sign up for it when he chose to attend the SOTU address.

[ddeclue]

109. No he didn't.. he signed up to listen to a speech.

Show me ANYTHING in writing to the contrary.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

119. SCJ are not to react during the speech. If they can't behave then they can stay home.

Rehnquist told his fellow court members not to attend for this reason.

[ddeclue]

122. There is NO requirement in the law to do that. They are entitled however much you dislike it to

react.

Indeed it is ironic that you dislike the guy for his bad ruling on a free speech case but then want to deny him FREE SPEECH.

:crazy:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

125. Why aren't you concerned about Wilson's freedom of speech?

The OP of this thread is Alito's conduct vs. Wilson's conduct. Now you are trying to change your argument.

[ddeclue]

133. No I'm NOT.. Wilson's conduct is governed by the rules of the House. Alito's is NOT.

The Constitution clearly gives Congress the ability to make its own rules for governing the behavior of members like Wilson which limit his free speech rights on the floor. Those rules do NOT apply to Supreme Court Justices.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

137. So do you believe a Supreme Court Justice should be able to say "YOU LIE!" and shout to the pres.?

Nobody is saying Alito should be jailed but he sure as hell SHOULD be criticized.

[ddeclue]

140. Criticizing him should be done lightly and with some understanding and compassion

...remember "compassion" we're supposed to be liberals after all...

I think the degree of Alito's response determines the degree of that criticism. Had Alito shouted out "You Lie!" like Wilson I would have been a hell of a lot more offended by it as I was by Wilson (hence the OP).

[SemiCharmedQuark]

145. Wilson is 1 of 435 members. Alito is 1 of 9.

Wilson's job allows him to be partisan. Alito's requires that he be impartial.

You do not see a difference here?

[ddeclue]

148. Impartiality can only be approximated by human beings not actually achieved.

The human condition is imperfection. Sorry if you don't realize that. And my point here is that Alito was far better behaved than Wilson which is obvious to anyone who observed both speeches - in fact to equate the two is to give Wilson a pass for his far worse behavior.

[JuniperLea]

169. I think the OP would be shocked to know

That on any given day in Hollywood, professional actors are able to contain themselves, and limit their speech to words given them by others. Shocking, I know... how they do it without warm, fuzzy, Kumbaya moments is just beyond me!

:rofl:

[ddeclue]

84. Oh what a bunch of babies you people are being..you think Obama cares?

NO. Why do you think you need to defend him from something he doesn't even care about? It's just childish to pile on.

[RaleighNCDUer]

89. "...you think Obama cares?"

Frankly, he has NOTHING to do with this. This is about Alito and HIS reaction - one not matched by ANY of the other SC justices.

You just want to turn it around and piss on Obama for upsetting poor Sammy.

[ddeclue]

91. Incorrect - what OBAMA did was correct. what Alito did was marginally acceptable

what YOU are doing is what is UNACCEPTABLE.

[RaleighNCDUer]

116. What do you THINK I am doing? nt

[fishwax]

88. nobody said it was the law or that Alito somehow broke the law

:shrug:

But his breach of protocol merits the discussion we're seeing of his behavior.

[ddeclue]

93. it was a very minor breach in light of the fact that he was being singled out

and SOME people here DO think a "law" was broken. Read some of the posts.

[RaleighNCDUer]

98. HE was not singled out. The Court was criticised, which if anything

would be a singling out of Roberts, as Chief Justice.

He was no more singled out than Joe Lieberman was in Obama's criticizing of Congress.

[ddeclue]

115. Do the math 535 members of Congress vs 9 on the court.

the blame gets spread a lot further in Congress, when there's only 9 of you and in this case 5 who made the decision you are bound to take it a lot more personally.

[fishwax]

127. Do the math: "single" (meaning one) vs. 9 on the court

:rofl:

[ddeclue]

136. More fishwax nonsense. You totally ignored my statement to make a childish non sequitur.

Congratulations.. you lose.

[fishwax]

150. I'm sorry that your math doesn't work, ddeclue, but that's no reason to get mad at me

Alito wasn't singled out. But feel free to continue to claim otherwise, and to continue responding like a hurt Alito when people point out the flaws in your argument.

[ddeclue]

153. More useless fishwax.. Alito was one of FIVE people responsible so yes

he pretty much WAS singled out. Sorry if you can't see the difference between 5 people and 250+ Republicans in Congress and the Senate. Perhaps you need to take some remedial math classes.

[fishwax]

157. I'm not sure whether it's your understanding of numbers that's flawed or your understanding of words

Perhaps it's both.

[ddeclue]

158. It's neither. SAT MATH 750. SAT VERBAL 660.

:P

[RaleighNCDUer]

178. And yet you persist in insisting that 1 = 5. nt

[Jennicut]

2. No other Justices mouthed anything. Alito is a baby.

[ddeclue]

So.. he's got feelings like everybody else.. let it GO is my point.

Nobody likes being dressed down by the boss and I'm sure that is what he was feeling at the moment even though Obama is technically NOT his boss.

[Jennicut]

12. Feelings? For corporations?

Not buying it. He is pissed that Obama called him out but can't handle the criticism. Justices are not above the law, as much as some would like to think they are.

[ddeclue]

22. The decision sucks but so what if he can't handle criticism? A lot of people can't.

and there's NO LAW against him mouthing something in the SOU address. Grow up and stop taking it so damned personally. All he did was what anyone would do if singled out for criticism.

[JuniperLea]

23. OMG...

You're wrong. He's a professional and he acted BEYOND unprofessionally...

[ddeclue]

29. Actually he's used to being given a great deal of deference and respect

so he was actually NOT used to being criticized. In the world of the court system he's at the top of the pyramid. People don't criticize him - he criticizes them. So he was LESS likely to take criticism well than you or I would.

[arthritisR_US]

41. teeny weeny syndrome and he sits on your highest court of the land...well

isn't that just dandy. :sarcasm:

[ddeclue]

43. It's not wonderful but he's a SC justice, not a saint or a martyr.

Welcome to reality.

[arthritisR_US]

48. I'm glad you figured out that he's not a saint or a martyr although it

never was in question for me :-)

[ddeclue]

53. Apparently it IS in question for YOU because you expect him to behave like one and turn the other

cheek...:P

[arthritisR_US]

60. nope, I expect him to conduct himself in the manner to commiserate with the office he

holds. 5 minutes of self control is not asking for martyrdom or sainthood....unless your a republican ;-)

[ddeclue]

63. It's NOT how long that matters it is what is being said about you that matters.

Self control is NOT a function of the time but rather the stress you are under. That was an extraordinary moment of stress for the Justices to get dressed down so publicly and you DO have to be a saint to just stand there and take it and I truly doubt YOU would fare as well.

[arthritisR_US]

75. I take your bait and flush it down the toilet ;-) n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

82. What stress? He was sitting there listening to someone talk.

BTW, he WAS in the military - he's had drill sergeants and superiors SCREAM in his face. He knows how to keep his cool - if he chooses to.

He chose NOT to.

He CHOSE not to.

[ddeclue]

94. NOT the same thing having the President of the United States dress you down is far more stressful.

[fishwax]

108. the president didn't dress him down. The president disagreed with a decision of the court

[ddeclue]

111. It was clearly a dressing down. Well deserved but a dressing down.

[fishwax]

139. The President said:

"Last week, the Supreme Court reversed a century of law to open the floodgates for special interests — including foreign corporations — to spend without limit in our elections. Well I don't think American elections should be bankrolled by America's most powerful interests, or worse, by foreign entities."

Again, Obama was articulating a disagreement with the decision. Nothing wrong with that. He didn't "single out" Alito, nor did he imply in any way that the court acted in bad faith (as his comments about the strategy of "just saying no" did imply about the republicans).

I don't Alito's reaction was driven so much by being personally offended as it was by simply being argumentative.

[ddeclue]

143. Yes I know what he said and I absolutely agree.. it was the best thing a President has said in 20

years but let's be honest, however true it was, it still amounted to a major smack down on the court. I LOVED it but I truly can't fault Alito for an unconscious defense reaction to it. As someone has pointed out the true insult came from the Justices who didn't bother to show up.

[RaleighNCDUer]

66. And the person dressing him down was the PRESIDENT OF THE

FUCKING UNITED STATES.

The non-political position he holds means that no matter what the POTUS says, he does not react. He does not applaud what he likes in the speech - he does not grumble about what he dislikes. He is on the fucking supreme court where he is supposed to weigh facts, not act on emotion. When he votes with the court, the vote is supposed to explain itself in the reasoning of the vote. When he dissents with the court, his dissent is supposed to explain itself by reason. Getting pissy is NOT part of the job, or of the public face of the justice. He is supposed to at least PRETEND that his judgement is based on legal reasoning.

[ddeclue]

71. Oh brother - it was directly aimed at HIM and HIS colleagues..

he is entitled to react and in fact I think it is preposterous to think he would not react.

[arthritisR_US]

78. and how come the others present didn't react? n/t

[ddeclue]

97. They just didn't say anything but they ALL clearly had horrified looks on their faces

and some seemed to be blushing. Perhaps they were simply too stunned to talk back. Same thing happened with the JCS on DADT. Very embarassed and horrified looks too. Perhaps decades of military discipline helped them keep their tongues whereas decades of being a judge and in charge made Alito MORE likely to talk back.

[RaleighNCDUer]

135. No, he is NOT entitled to react.

A SC justice may at any time sit in judgment on ANY person, including the POTUS. As someone else pointed out, Rehnquist required that if any of his court could not keep from reacting to what is said at the SOTU they should stay home, because any reaction to any policy statement is a recognizable pre-judgment of any suit that might result from that policy. Meaning, any decent lawyer could then request the justice recuse himself from any and all cases that touch on that policy.

That is why you NEVER see the justices who are there applauding any part of the speech. They sit there and don't react, applauding the President ONLY when the speech is over (if then). By the same token, they don't visably DISagree with anything said.

There are sound LEGAL reasons for it, besides it being tradition or protocol.

How is Roberts now going to be able to count on Alito's vote when the first challenge to this ruling comes before the court? You think WE are pissed? Roberts is probably FURIOUS.

[ddeclue]

138. And AGAIN.. Alito doesn't work for Roberts EITHER.

Alito may be an Associate Justice but to paraphrase a line from the West Wing, Roberts doesn't have the authority to direct Alito to men's room. Alito is truly his own boss and doesn't take orders from anyone and can't be fired short of an impeachment which we all know will never happen.

[RaleighNCDUer]

151. At the risk of repeating myself, since you didn't seem to get it -

There are sound LEGAL reasons for it, besides it being tradition or protocol.

How is Roberts now going to be able to count on Alito's vote when the first challenge to this ruling comes before the court? You think WE are pissed? Roberts is probably FURIOUS.

This display gives lawyers a reasonable argument for Alito to recuse himself from any decisions touching on this ruling. You may pretend the fascist five are not a bloc of votes - but the reality is different, and if Alito's vote is missing then the corporatists will not be able to advance their agenda. It does not matter a bit that Roberts is not his 'boss' - it IS the Roberts court, and they have their agenda, as evidenced by this very ruling which threw out a hundred years of precedent.

Alito fucked up. As disgusted by it as I am, I can't say I'm not glad about it if it actually DOES result in slowing their agenda.

But the point is, as I said, there are LEGAL reasons that go beyond tradition and protocol, and Alito blew it. He does not have the temperament to be a SC justice.

[ddeclue]

155. Then you should be overjoyed.. that said nobody can force a Justice to recuse themselves.

that is entirely up to the Justice. If you want to try and impeach Alito for subsequently taking cases on corporate issues or free speech because he mumbled something under his breath in a Presidential speech one time then you are simply delusional - it will never happen. Legally speaking, there ARE no consequences if Alito says something becaus he simply doesn't have to recuse himself unless he wants to do so. That makes you WRONG.

[RaleighNCDUer]

167. It is true that nobody can force a justice to recuse himself,

but there is a certain amount of public embarrassment involved if a lawyer makes that motion.

As you keep saying, he is only human - public embarrassment is NOT something he wants. The justices are supposed to be impartial arbiters of the law - they are not supposed to create law. We may know differently, but the image is still there, and none of the justices want the court, as a whole, to come under ridicule - therefore, when requested to recuse himself he either weakens his partisan side, or he brings the whole court under ridicule - kind of a Hobb's choice. The legal ramifications come, of course, if he actually DOES recuse himself.

How many duck hunts did Scalia go on with Cheney after he was challenged on that?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

184. He is absolutely entitled to react.

[JuniperLea]

52. You're just wrong...

I see very clearly that you have no clue at all as to what it takes to be a professional in any area... self-control is one of the most important traits.

[ddeclue]

58. That's a ridiculously absolute assertion that human beings can't express emotions or defend

themselves when challenged. Indeed it is very obviously false.

[JuniperLea]

67. Oh for fuck's sake...

You're wrong. How many boardrooms have you sat in and watched asses being handed to many sitting around the table and have them accept said asses graciously? I'm guessing none. You have no clue what corporate America is about, and legal America is all about the same. You have not clue one about professionalism.

[ddeclue]

79. You clearly don't have a clue about me and who really cares what boardrooms you've sat in.

You think you're more "professional" than others because you sit on corporate boards? Yawn.. I'm not impressed at all. These are the same people who've been screwing up our country for decades and you proudly claim to be one of them. LOL.

You have NO idea what professionalism is if you think that people are just supposed to sit there and take it. That's NOT professionalism, that's called cowardice.

[JuniperLea]

92. No, now try to pay attention this time...

I don't sit on boards... I work for a communications firm that teaches heads of corporations, lawyers, and other professionals how to conduct themselves in various situations. Protocol and professional behavior in speaking and in writing is our business. It's my professional opinion that you are clueless in this regard... and I'm fully intending on putting you on ignore as soon as I'm done watching you have your own ass handed to you here, and seeing you spin out of control further proving your inability to understand the above-referenced protocols.

I'll just sit back and watch now. Thanks for the entertainment, I think.

[ddeclue]

117. Clearly you can't control your emotions or you wouldn't have engaged thus far.

Please DO put me on ignore. If you can. I think you have just failed your OWN test.

:rofl:

[lyonn]

27. Right on Jenn! He is not Above the Law....

But, he is making the law. The SC is part of the American system, not the higher power they seem to think they are. Alito, bobble head, has no class or common sense.

[ddeclue]

31. Is there suddenly a "law" against mouthing something in an SOU address?

:crazy:

[bigtree]

3. it was worse than Wilson

. . . . because it was mouthed by the crumb, Alito.

[ddeclue]

8. that makes no sense.. Wilson was just being malicious and wasn't even being singled out by Obama

when he shouted out.

[bigtree]

15. but, it's alito

. . . the crumb.

What's there really to defend about him? Let him wallow in it. He deserves any criticism we can muster. The man is a disaster for the court; put in place with just a few hours of questioning after a bruising confirmation of Rehnquist.

[ddeclue]

18. because we should be better than that... it's called piling on. show some class.

[JuniperLea]

21. Actually... you're way off base in this case...

Way.

[ddeclue]

26. HOW? Anyone who has ever managed people or lead a team knows you don't discipline your crew

in front of their mates. You do it privately.

WHY?

Because it hurts people's feelings and belittles them and provokes such outbursts

Now I still think Obama was absolutely right to call out the SCOTUS for this decision but to expect NO response from them is just too much. A normal person WOULD push back if they felt they were being criticized. It's only human.

[JuniperLea]

54. Bullshit

This isn't a warehouse, or a Wal Mart, or a shoe store... these are professionals. Clearly you have no clue what it takes.

[ddeclue]

55. Clearly you have FAILED to explain HOW and are substituting expletives for arguments.

Apparently YOU don't have what it takes because YOU (like Alito) can't control yourself when challenged. Thanks for proving my point.

[JuniperLea]

64. No, you are failing to understand something that most people understand...

He's a professional... he is to behave as one at all times. If you think I lost my cool with you in any way, you're sadly mistaken.

As a professional working for a communications firm that offers media training services to professionals at all levels, I have a pretty good idea what's expected of professionals in the areas of law, corporate governance, financial services, you name it. We've trained them all.

I've sat in boardrooms with heads of multi billion dollar corporations... have you? Pft. You'd cry.

[ddeclue]

68. Yawn..I'm so NOT impressed..you have NOT had a President dress you down.

and I've been in plenty of places you have not.. like landing a plane in the dark by myself or in the room with Congressmen and Senators and candidates for Governor so don't lecture me about how "professional" you are.. you're no better than anyone else and the fact that you can't recognize that people are human and have human emotions shows me that you really are NOT a "professional" or you'd know better.

[JuniperLea]

76. Just dig a little deeper...

You're seriously wrong about this and should give it up...

[ddeclue]

87. Not at all.. you are the one with the ridiculously unrealistic way of treating other human beings

don't be surprised if one day one of them takes your head off for your arrogance.

[RaleighNCDUer]

96. One, the SC is NOT Obama's crew.

Two, the response you might expect from a SC justice would be a well-reasoned letter published in the NY Times, answering his criticisms, using the court's arguments in the case in question.

Making faces and comments under your breath is NOT how a Supreme Court justice responds to such criticism. That crap should be left to congressmen.

[ddeclue]

126. You give these guys too much credit.. They are human just like anyone else.

and actually I think a letter to the NYT would be a huge over-reaction by Alito were he to do it. I can forgive his instantaneous reaction of mumbling something under his breath a lot more than I would a letter like that.

[Skittles]

4. here's the thing, ddeclue

the man is a Supreme Court justice - in that capacity, at the SOTU, he should not have mouthed anything - period

[ddeclue]

6. He's a human being first.

[DJ13]

11. Are we sure?

:shrug:

[JuniperLea]

25. Nonsense...

Such positions require the human to rise above the trappings and failings associated with the human existence. If they can't do that, they have no business holding such a high position. Period.

[ddeclue]

33. That's preposterous - he's NOT God.. he's NOT perfect..and to demand that is just childish.

[JuniperLea]

47. I do it every day...

As do many professionals in many fields... seems to me the childish may be on the other foot here.

[ddeclue]

144. And clearly many do not. Sorry if you're a Vulcan without emotions.

:eyes:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

99. Yes because asking someone to sit still for 1 hour is asking for perfection.

[ddeclue]

146. Actually it is.

[Zoeisright]

28. He's SUPPOSED to be a grown-up first.

Apparently he's a little brat who has to get the last word.

[ddeclue]

36. Welcome to America - and (ironically) freedom of speech.

Perhaps Alito learned a little lesson about being drowned out last night by the guy with the bigger megaphone but cut the guy a LITTLE slack... how would YOU like to have the President of the United States call you out so spectacularly on national TV to your face? It can't be fun.

[Skittles]

179. actually, no

robed, he is in his official capacity as JUDGE and should have suppressed his knee-jerk reactions

[Tippy]

17. SCOTUS being who and what they do...should be respected

the same as out President...I's a dam shame Alito did what the did. That is a picture they won't go away.

[Kahuna]

7. I disagree. His body language and what you could read from his lips..

saying, 'not true,' is the same thing to me.

[DJ13]

9. Justice Alito's conduct and the Court's credibility

Glenn Greenwald
Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 07:29 EST

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/01/28/alito/index.html

[BeyondGeography]

10. Alito isn't an oppo back bencher, he's a Supreme

That makes you wrong.

[ddeclue]

38. HOW? You haven't explained HOW. Supreme Court justices are human beings too..

even Alito..

[BeyondGeography]

50. Oh, stop with that claptrap

Alito fucked up; his little slip was bad for the Court and for his own image.

Read:

The larger issue raised by Alito’s pouty face goes to the place of the Court in American life. In public, and especially in confirmation hearings, the Justices try to portray themselves as Olympian figures, removed from the hurly burly of politics. In Chief Justice Roberts’ famous (now mostly infamous) phrase at his confirmation hearing, the Justices are like baseball umpires, who do nothing more than call balls and strikes. But that’s not true—and it never has been true. (I discussed this issue in my Profile of Roberts.) The Justices have strong political views, which have powerful impacts on how they do their jobs. Alito performed the public service of making this point clearer for a national audience.

What makes Alito’s reaction even more delicious is that it’s further evidence that the Justice just can’t stand Obama. As a Senator, Obama voted against Alito’s confirmation, which the Justice does not seem to have forgotten. When the President-elect Obama made a courtesy call on the Justices shortly before his inauguration last year, Alito was the only member of the Court not to attend. (Obama voted against Roberts, too, but the Chief Justice managed to spare the time to welcome Obama.) The first law that Obama signed as President was the Lilly Ledbetter Act—which reversed a decision by the Supreme Court that had erected new barriers to plaintiffs filing employment discrimination cases. The author of that now-overruled decision? Samuel Alito. These two guys have a history.

And now everyone knows it. And for that reason, then, I don’t begrudge Alito his grimace. He was just being honest. Alito’s role in that room—and his place at the Court—is no different from that of the Republican members of Congress; both are dedicated political adversaries of the President. The camera—and the Justice—didn’t lie.

Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2010/01/alitos-face.html#ixzz0dwPdsrTg

[JuniperLea]

103. Great catch...

Thanks for posting. Champion!

[ddeclue]

152. SO??? Did you really think they were Olympian Gods before? I certainly didn't.

They are human beings and just as fallible as you or I. The joke is that they "aren't final because they are infallible.. they are infallible because they are final."

Supreme Court Justices are no more infallible than Popes or Presidents or Governors. They make mistakes too. Grow up and stop piling on the poor guy.

[RaleighNCDUer]

161. You do understand that that 'poor guy' is one of the most powerful

men in the country?

He is 1/9th of an entire branch of government. His job is fucking forever. He is, actually, more powerful than the president. You think he doesn't KNOW that?

Poor guy.

My heart fucking bleeds for him.

[sharesunited]

13. I give him credit for even being there. I didn't see Scalia or Thomas.

[ddeclue]

46. What in the hell is up with THAT? If you want to talk about a REAL insult..

the real insult was Scalia and Thomas not showing up.

[Arkansas Granny]

69. The justices are not required to attend the SOTU and often, they do not.

[RaleighNCDUer]

142. I actually give them credit for NOT being there - if they were likely

to visibly react to anything that Obama said, they NEEDED to stay home where they could yell at the TV like the rest of the teabaggers. The image and credibility of the Supreme Court's supposed impartiality is at stake.

[Warpy]

14. I understand Pelosi and Reid had both instructed

the Sergeant at Arms to eject any GOP who uttered a peep.

Whatever happened, it worked. Alito was obviously a hair away from trying to shout him down. Conservatives really hate to be told they're wrong and they're always wrong.

[ddeclue]

51. Alito wasn't gonna shout him down. He mouthed something under his breath.

I know I've done that many a time personally.

And YES I'm sure he didn't like being told he was wrong - but YES he WAS wrong.

[caraher]

16. I can't stand Alito, but I agree with you

I don't think his role there was as a stage prop, but as a justice of the Supreme Court, and he did nothing disruptive. If this were in the age before TV we wouldn't even have anything to talk about here; not true of the Wilson outburst. As wrong as the decision was, there's nothing surprising in expecting a member of the majority to think they got it right, and to be annoyed with being told they hadn't.

If the shoe were on the other foot and President McCain were criticizing a Supreme Court decision, and Ginsburg were seen mouthing "not true," would you consider that unbecoming of a member of the court? I just can't agree that justices aren't allowed to betray any reaction to criticism of their decisions - however terrible the decision and richly-deserved the words against it.

[ddeclue]

19. Thank you.. to be clear this has to be one of the three or four worst decisions ever handed down.

along w Dredd Scott, Plessy v. Ferguson, and Gore v. Bush.

[July]

114. I believe that was Bush v. Gore. nt

[G_j]

141. I agree also

and we really have no idea if this has happened in the past before video cameras. It was a bit of body language.
He made himself look like an ass, but it's not like interrupting a speech with an accusation.

[KonaKane]

32. There sure seems to be a trend building, though

It looks like its getting popular to counter Obama on camera when he is speaking to Congress. Truly weird, since no one did that to Dunce when he was actually lying us into a war.

[caraher]

39. At the time, I would have welcomed that against Bush

There is something to be said for respecting the office. But it's hard to keep saying that when the person holding the office shows as little respect for life, basic decency and the rule of law as W

[KonaKane]

165. I would have welcomed shoes raining down on his head,

but that's me.

[ddeclue]

45. I don't really think that Alito's reaction was a conscious planned one, more of an involuntary

response. Wilson's was planned and malicious and unprovoked.

And it would have been useful had our side stood up to Bush in the Iraq War case but they failed to do it.

[Generator]

35. I think he wasn't wearing underwear

under that robe. Now that is disgusting. WHERE is the respect?

[hfojvt]

37. I'm gonna break precedent

and actually agree with an OP

[berni_mccoy]

42. I have to agree with this, as much as I don't like Alito, I don't think what he did

was the same as what Wilson did.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

101. Wilson is 1 representative of congress who is partisan. Alito is supposed to be impartial.

[Jamastiene]

44. Ah, a parking place.

:popcorn:

[ddeclue]

159. DUZY ALERT! I knew this thread was going to get me flamed by a bunch of gung ho cheerleader types

who can't let it go.

[Jamastiene]

174. ...

:spray:

:rofl:

[Quantess]

49. You are right, of course.

But Alito is so loathsome, right now nobody feels like granting him any shred of forgiveness.

I recommended this thread, but it looks like you're well into the negative integers.

[ddeclue]

162. You know.. I knew that it would neg recced but I had to say it anyways...

thanks! :D

[Raineyb]

59. Actually you're wrong. What Alito did was WORSE. n/t

[TexasObserver]

72. Alito's conduct was much, much worse than Wilson's.

Wilson is one hack GOP rep out of over 150, each representing some 700,000 persons. One of them flashing his ass means almost nothing.

But a sitting Supreme court Justice?! One of five GOP judges who overturned on their whim 100 years of non stop efforts to curb the baneful influence of money on elections? This rat fuck - and that's what he is - deserves to be publicly ridiculed and scorned. He's a right wing fascist who thinks the constitution is supposed to be about protecting the rich and powerful at all costs.

[Quantess]

95. Well, obviously. But I thought this was about Alito's lack of decorum at the SOTU.

[TexasObserver]

121. Even if the sole issue is his conduct there, it was part of his pissy, pompous GOPness.

[librechik]

77. Alito was the one piling on with the rest of the sneering derisive Rs in the audience

he's human, sure. but thank god he had enough self control not to stand up and moon the president and scratch his ass because, you know that's what humans do when they're provoked and the get an itch.

(And the battered wife provoked her husband into slapping her by telling him it was wrong to sleep around and drink too much.)

It's just a matter of degree of disrespect. Alito's was a small gesture, but when you multiply it by hundreds of snickering Puglies in the audience, it begins to be a mob, and is encouraged and worsened when a leader who is expected in a formal setting to provide a role model, joins in with the rabble.

[upi402]

112. Job #1 is to be able to be dispassionate. HE needs to let things go

:nopity:

[librechik]

172. yes, I agree. Alito should have just let it go.

[fishwax]

80. It was bad. Maybe not as loud as Wilson, but inappropriate

And I'm glad that they're talking about it and thus keeping the decision itself (and Obama's reaction) in the conversation.

[ddeclue]

164. Thanks for admitting that. That was my OP. My main complaint is people trying to lump them

together as being the same.

[fishwax]

177. With all due respect, I don't think that was your OP at all.

I mean, I agree with the part of the OP about how, unlike Wilson, Alito didn't shout like a 10-year-old -- but I don't agree with the title of the OP or with the suggestion that the criticism of Alito is undeserved piling on or even that Alito was reacting defensively rather than simply being argumentative about Obama's interpretation of the ruling.

"Thanks for admitting that."

Admitting what? :)

[butterfly77]

105. Alito and a majority of others wanted..

to say the same thing they both are full of it.

[grantcart]

131. Both reactions showed that both actors were performing roles that they

were not suited for.

Alito may be a good advocate but he is no judge.

My brother is a judge and the first thing that they learn is temperment. You leave your personal feelings in the cloak room when you put on the robe. It is clear that Alito wears his personal feelings outside of his robe. If he couldn't compartmentalize his feelings on that little amount of provocation then he should never have been made a judge.

My brother who is a conservative recently lost an election for higher position because in the conservative area that he lives everyone assumed that he was a liberal democrat (and most of his volunters were Democrats). When he is in court his personal feelings don't count for anything and he rules based on the law.

This is the reason that Alito's reaction showed that he doesn't have judicial temperment.

Now you are correct that if Alito had been a back bench congressman then his reaction would have been no big deal, but as a judge not so.

[harun]

132. Alito outed himself as a partisan activist judge, mission accomplished Obama!

I don't give a sh*t which was worse. I think Wilson's looked more juvenile. Both showed they can't control their impulses.

[Skidmore]

175. Absolutely! Spot on!

All that needs to be said. He should have kept his mouth shut, but I'm glad he did this. This shows the RW judicial appointments for the activist judiciary that they seek to seat on the court. Now I double dog dare any R to sit at an appointment hearing and start in about judges not legislating from the bench.

[kiranon]

182. Agree . Alito's partisanship is out for all to see. On the other hand,

Justice Roberts baby face smile hides an even greater dislike for the common man and lack of compassion for any cause other than corporate. What a sad outcome for a man who has everything and uses it to deny almost everything to his fellow citizens. Do not care for either Justice Alito or Roberts but find Alito more honest about his bias than Roberts. In arguing before the court, attorneys need to present their case in a way that may cause Alito to go their way but I do not believe Justice Roberts will rule anyway but in favor of corporations no matter how the case is pitched to him. Justice Roberts always hits to the far right. Alito may in time move to the center. Stranger things have happened.

[FrenchieCat]

170. It was worse......as Alito is not supposed to show partisanship.....

[cbdo2007]

181. Saying the President's statement was not true isn't showing partisanship.

I know, I know...Alito's obviously a Republican but Obama's statement that "the Supreme Court reversed a century of law that I believe will open the flood gates to special interests..." wasn't a partisan statement either.

Just because someone says the President's statement is not true does not mean they are siding with the Republican's because not everyone sees every issue as black and white, Democrat vs. Repube. If that were the case anyone on DU who disagrees with the President on any single issue and makes a statement regarding that is a Republican, right?

It was definitely in poor taste, bad judgement, and classless but disagreeing with Obama saying, "The Supreme Court reversed a century of law" is not partisan.

[Change Happens]

173. It is way worse, because of who Alito is and what he should stand for

I really do think ALL republicans are scums filthy pigs

[DefenseLawyer]

176. I disagree.

Wilson violated decorum, Alito violated far more than that. We hold judges to a higher standard than two bit congressmen, who do not have rules of ethics which dictate that they remain impartial.

[Hosnon]

180. I don't think it was as bad by any means but it was inappropriate for a Justice.

What I am certain about is that the decision should not be an impeachable offense.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

185. I agree....

For starters, if a camera hadn't been aimed directly at Alito, none of us would be any the wiser about his behavior. All things considered, it was a fairly muted response on a subject about which he clearly disagrees with the President.

Joe Wilson called attention to himself by shouting out and interrupting the President, to the point that he felt he had to respond to it.

Alito's a jerk, but he still has a right to his wrong-headed opinion.

[onpatrol98]

186. I agree

I painfully agree. Had a camera not been on his face, the world would have never known. Imagine sitting somewhere, where you're forced to simply listen to someone blasting you out, even if you deserve it. If you don't believe you deserve it, unless you're daft, either your facial expression or something is going to change. It's almost like holding someone down while you slap them and then being surprised that they're ticked. I think it was a reflex moment. In his position, I would like to think that I would have thought (not mouthed) the sentiment.

But, even a supreme court justice is human. He's a not a Marine on duty paid to be stoic. He's a man. Maybe not a very useful one. I don't like the ruling. But, I thought his behavior understandable. Sometimes listening to my boss, I find myself slightly shaking my head, or looking down or up, or anywhere to keep from saying something. Thank goodness, there are no cameras around.

Mr. Obama is President. He's not God. Yes, he deserves respect, but good grief. This borders on the ridiculous.