Breaking: Judge in Tiller murder trial says no lesser plea!

[11 Bravo]

The jurors in the trial of murderer Scott Roeder have been told that they may not even consider a plea of Manslaughter. Fry you crazy bastard!

on edit: link http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35103652/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

[malaise]

1. Get thee to the greatest page

Recccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc!

[nosmokes]

3. linkage?

[11 Bravo]

7. Just added it to the OP.

[ddeclue]

2. might backfire though.. they might be crazy enough to let him walk.

[malaise]

4. He's walking into a cell

for life in prison.

[BolivarianHero]

28. Then it would be time for a solution to the fundamentalist problem...

This cancer musn't be allowed to hold individuals or society from justice, from liberty, or from greatness...

[BlancheSplanchnik]

48. what you said, times ONE Thousand!

or more.

Fundamentalist aggressive ignorant hate-driven apocalypse xenophobic authoritarian tiny-stupid-worldview christianity can very well bring this country down to the ashes they so desire, if not held to no more than a goofy fringe.

I can't even describe how disgusted I am, seeing jesus this and christian that everywhere I turn.

[66 dmhlt]

52. Hell, Roeder stopped for a PIZZA after murdering Dr. Tiller

Roeder said put the gun to Tiller's forehead and pulled the trigger. Roeder said Tiller stood still what seemed to be three to four seconds. Then Tiller fell, Roeder said.

Roeder, who appeared more relaxed on cross-examination than on his direct testimony, said he had no fear that morning.

He left in his car and stopped in Valley View, Kan., and bought a pizza.

"Did killing Dr. Tiller make you hungry?" Foulston asked.

"I was hungry," Roeder said.
(Emphasis added)

Source:
http://www.kansascity.com/657/story/1713277.html?storylink=omni_popular

[Hepburn]

5. Fucking-A YEEEEEEEEEEEEES!!

Good for you, Judge! :applause:

[spanone]

6. k&r

[Canuckistanian]

8. Do jurors get to vote on plea bargaining?

I thought it was an agreement between the defence, prosecutors and judge to make.

[Hepburn]

10. It's not a plea bargain....it is the judge's decision on lesser included charges.

The judge says that the jury cannot consider any charge but Murder One.

[Canuckistanian]

17. Ah, OK

So when the judge is 'charging the jury', he will specifically name the allowed charges.

Gotcha.

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

11. you are right

but the jury can consider lesser charges, this varies buy state. murder is a state law, in this case the judge made it clear to the jury that they have to choose guilty or not guilty on the 1st degree murder charge.

[peacebird]

9. Judge let Roeder spew his nonsense about only killing to save the beautiful unborn babies first

I am betting that this will be a hung jury, it only takes one pro-lifer in the jury box to nullify for gawd...

[riderinthestorm]

13. I know. I'm worried about this too. Roeder knew he only had to sway one juror

and get them to at least consider his position.

Does anyone know anything about this judge? Is he Republican and anti-choice? Could he have allowed Roeder his emotional plea knowing that if he struck out the other lesser possible charges, he opened the door for a hung jury?

[badgerpup]

44. Please enlighten me here...

:wtf:
It takes a straight-out verdict of "Not Guilty on the sole count of murder in the first degree" for him to walk...

A hung jury would simply mean he is tried again, does it not?

I thought you had to get a definite answer one way or the other.

[happyslug]

56. That is the America Rule, no unanimous verdict then a Mistrial is declared.

Now, I use the term "American Rule" do to difference in the treatment of appeals between the US and England. In the US if a Guilty Verdict is reversed on appeal, all the defendant gets is a new trial. In England, if the verdict is reversed on appeal, the conviction is "Quashed" and no new trial is permitted. AS to Juries I do not know if that rule applies in England, but that is a moot point here for this case is in Kansas which follows the American Rule i.e. all the defendant gets in a hung jury is another trial (Unless the prosecution declines to re-try the defendant, does happen but that is up to the Prosecutor).

[struggle4progress]

61. "America rule" is a misnomer, since it is possible to be convicted in US without a unanimous jury

Supreme Court Upholds Non-Unanimous Jury Verdicts
Tuesday October 7, 2008
Two states, Louisian and Oregon, have laws that allow offenders of some crimes to be convicted with less than unanimous jury verdicts. The U.S. Supreme Court upheld those laws Monday when the court refused to hear the appeal of convicted Louisiana serial killer Derrick Todd Lee ... http://crime.about.com/b/2008/10/07/supreme-court-upholds-non-unanimous-jury-verdicts.htm

[happyslug]

63. I have read the case cited, it was a three way split

It involved the issue of Unanimous juries but also the issue of can you have a jury of less then 12. Four Justices wanted to strike down verdicts of less then 12, Four Justices wanted to uphold Juries of less then 12. One Justice wanted to uphold smaller juries but still be unanimous. Yes it was a three way vote and as such not much help on the issues. The issue has since just sat, the Court does not really want to re-address it. Some Justices like the idea of smaller juries with full power of a 12 person jury, other Justice dislike less then Unanimous Juries of 12.

My point is the issue has NOT yet decided by the Supreme Court and this sounds like another attempt to avoid the issue (This is NOT a typical left-Right split and as such none of the Justices can predict how the other Justices will vote. As long as that is the case the issue will be avoided by the Court. This is the same reason Zoning Law, Gun Control and other issues that are avoided, both left wingers and right wingers view these issue as an economic issue, other as a Social/Civil Right issue. Depending on how each Justice view it will determine how they vote.

[sharesunited]

12. The case now turns on jury selection and jury instructions.

His having done the shooting is not on trial, since he admitted that in court today.

[kestrel91316]

14. Prediction: Not Guilty. Just watch.

[Lasher]

30. Nope, he'll be found guilty.

Then the SCOTUS will overturn the conviction 5 to 4.

[malaise]

41. He will be found guilty

This is premeditated murder plain and simple.

[Hepburn]

15. I just looked at a local KC paper on the decision to not allow the jury...

...to consider lesser included charges and out of 30 posts, only one that was anti-Tiller. The mood in that group was definitely anti-Roeder. Suprised the heck out of me.

[blondeatlast]

18. Relatives in Wichita have told me that the mood seems to be for conviction.

I'm shocked, but GOOD.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hepburn]

21. Wow....

...like you said ~~ shocked. But, I can see why those who oppose abortion could see what happened to Tiller as a set back for them. It was just so totally unforgiveable to shoot a man in the head while he ushered in Sunday morning at his church.

[Shrek]

54. I live in Wichita and I agree with your relatives

The local conventional wisdom is that the trial is essentially a formality to make sure due process is observed. The outcome is not in doubt.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. Yes most folks here are (and were) supportive of Tiller

The anti choice assholes are a very loud bunch but definitely a minority. Last time I went by the local abortion clinic on a Sat morning, there were only two of them there :)

[Poll_Blind]

16. Good. n/t

PB

[Maru Kitteh]

20. FRY on ........ crazy bastard............ (set to Pink Floyd "Crazy Diamond")

[11 Bravo]

22. Thanks, now I'll have that running through my head all night!

[The Doctor.]

50. "You creep, you scumbag, you loon.... you'll fry to the moon."

"Fry on you Craaaaazy Bastard"

All... day.


Thanks. :banghead:

[Terra Alta]

23. good.

this monster is a murderer, plain and simple.. he should spend the rest of his life behind bars!

[ashling]

24. I watched part of it on TV today

I must say, I was impressed with the judge - at least for the part I watched.

[Stinky The Clown]

25. That was the best news I heard all day

[varelse]

26. Even better news (from my PoV)

Earlier Thursday, District Judge Warren Wilbert barred former Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline from testifying after listening to a preview of Kline's testimony without the jury present.

Kline investigated Tiller's clinic, Women's Health Care Services, in 2006 because he suspected Tiller was violating state laws pertaining to late-term abortion. The case was later dropped because of jurisdictional issues.

Wilbert said much of Kline's testimony would have amounted to "exactly what this court seeks to avoid."

"I said I would not allow this courtroom to turn into a forum or a referendum on abortion," Wilbert said.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. And Philll was subpoened and had to come here from Virginia

Hope he had to pay for his own plane ticket.

He is also being investigated and might lose his license to practice law.

[tblue]

27. Wa wa wa waaaaaaaaaa.....

Lock the door and throw away the key!

[lib_wit_it]

29. He should be "impregnated" every nine months and forced to deliver every one of them.

OK, I'm still working on the science.

[irishcat]

32. They'll take care of the "impregnating" part...

IN PRISON!

[AzDar]

31. K & R

[democracy1st]

33. K & R

[old mark]

34. Judging by the article, it seems like they have a good judge...

let's hope for a good jury.


mark

[struggle4progress]

35. ... “There’s no imminence of danger on a Sunday morning in the back of a church,”

Wilbert said ...
Roeder jury can't consider manslaughter in Tiller killing
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/83274.html

[Lindsey]

36. I thought when someone admits to the crime, there's no trial

and then the judge determines the sentence. I mean if he has admitted it, what is the Jury there for? It's confusing to me.

[struggle4progress]

37. Whether an act is a crime may depend on context and state-of-mind. Roeder was

not allowed a necessity offense, which would have taken the form I had to do this to prevent a more serious crime from occurring, but the judge considered allowing him a voluntary manslaughter defense which in this case would have taken the form I mistakenly thought I was protecting someone from immediate harm. It appears that Roeder attempted to take advantage of the possibility of a voluntary manslaughter defense to offer instead a disallowed necessity offense, so his testimony never actually provided any evidence that he mistakenly thought he was protecting someone from immediate harm -- and therefore the judge ruled that he would not allow the jury to consider voluntary manslaughter as a lesser included offense

The point, you see, is that I killed him is not always the same as I killed him with malice aforethought. The law might contemplate other possibilities such as I killed him because I thought he was about to kill my daughter. The various other possibilities are governed by law, which is the judge's expertise, and generally the task of the jury will be to decide whether the evidence of the case supports a particular application of the law, as explained to the jury by the judge

So we should now expect the judge to instruct the jury to determine whether the evidence submitted indicates Roeder murdered Tiller: absent unusual behavior from the jury, the outcome of that seems predictable, since (as you note) Roeder admits killing Tiller, and in fact admits planning to kill him, without much evidence to support any claim that he had a mistaken idea that he was protecting someone from immediate harm

[Solly Mack]

38. k/r

[krispos42]

39. Excellent. Hope he has fun in a 6x8 n/t

[leftynyc]

40. GREAT NEWS

I was worried the judge would allow lesser charges. I hope the jury votes to fry this vermin.

[Vidar]

45. Good.

[RoccoR5955]

46. Good!

Tell him not to bend over when he gets the soap!
Life for this creep, without parole!

[Mad_Dem_X]

47. YES!

Get 'im!

[D23MIURG23]

49. IMO: if you are going to argue that abortion is murder you can't argue that murder isn't murder.

No plea bargains for anti-abortion crazies.

[protect our future]

51. Closing arguments live on Tru TV, beginning now.

Tru TV here is Channel 47.

[KansDem]

53. WTF? Look at this paragraph from the article!

Roeder testified that he considered elaborate schemes to stop the doctor, including chopping off his hands, crashing a car into him or sneaking into his home to kill him.

This psychopath belongs locked away...for good!

[texanshatingbush]

55. Ditto on the fry order ! n/t

[rasputin1952]

57. I was not surprised he admitted to the murder, nor am i surprised at

the judge telling the jury that only murder can be considered in this case, although I am of the opinion that judges often talk too much about things like this...after all, it is up to the jury to decide guilt/innocence, boxing a jury in can have serious consequences. I've been on juries, it's difficult to keep on track and stick to the facts of a case, when a judge attempts to box in a jury, he/she is playing with fire.

This case appears cut and dried, but once it goes to jury, anything can happen, and sometimes, the verdict can be surprising. I sat on one jury where people thought the kid was guilty just because he "looked" guilty! That was a tough one, but the two of us with sense finally talked some sense into the 3 that were looking for vengeance at any cost. Trying to educate a few about the difference between justice and retribution is an experience. The kid got off by the way, the DA didn't make a good enough case, and there were serious questions about the police reports and how they handled themselves on the the stand. Stories didn't come together and the case looked like a sponge it had so many holes.

Anyway, this individual confessed to the crime, what makes it worse than pre-meditated murder is the cold way this individual acted not just while preparing for the crime, but the detached way he described committing the murder, as if he were watching a movie...and the way there is no remorse for taking a life. This puts this one into either a list sociopath or psychopath, where the hallmarks are a lack of any emotion considering the ramifications of the crime he is accused and confessed to. That is chilling indeed. Might be because he thinks he is some kind of martyr.

This man should spend the rest of his life behind bars; as an opponent of the DP I do not accept any other option at this point. no parole, no "good time"...just rotting away in prison waiting for the only day he'll get out...in a cheap pine box and off to a grave marked only by a number.

[colsohlibgal]

58. Let The Hypocrite Rot In Jail

A big percentage of this particular kind of nut case will kill to protect the life of someone not even on this earth but have no problem with us bombing foreign countries and killing innocent civilians and out own folks. Nothing new here in a way, religious kooks have murdered tons of people going bsack to ancient history, as in if you don't believe what I believe off with your head.

I tend to agree with what Rosie O'Donnell once said, if men could become pregnant abortion clinics would be at every intersection like 7-11s.

[RedCloud]

59. Dunk him. If he comes back alive, we were wrong!

[RedRoses323]

60. Good! Asshole!

:bounce: :bounce:

[beyurslf]

62. Less than 30 mins to convict. Slam dunk case!