Daily Kos: Why FL just got High Speed Rail

[bluestateguy]

For the record, I think this project is great and I am hoping for it to succeed 100%. But let's not be foolish and think that politics had nothing to do with it.



Uh Huh.



Makes a lot more sense now

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/1/29/831685/-Why-FL-just-got-High-Speed-Rail

In 2004, the I-4 corridor was the focus of intense political activity. The region was experiencing significant growth, and communities along the I-4 corridor were perceived by both parties as having higher proportions of undecided voters. The I-4 corridor region could be sufficient to swing the outcome of Florida and its 27 electoral votes. The I-4 corridor played an equally key role in the 2008 U.S. presidential election, but whereas the corridor had voted heavily for Bush in 2004, which helped Bush win the state, in 2008 it swung behind Democratic candidate Obama, helping Obama win Florida.

Florida is experiencing 11.8% unemployment, well above the national average. The I-4 corridor region is one of the hardest hit by the Great Recession.

So in a swing region experiencing population growth and crushing unemployment, you deliver a $3.5 billion high speed rail line. The project is estimated to bring 2300 jobs.

[Bucky]

1. Amazing: the counties with higher populations & infrastructure needs are Democratic!

Well, knock me over with a feather, it's almost as if population density somehow just magically correlates to more proactive governmental action.

You don't need to politicize decisions like this. Cities tend to be Democratic and cities tend to need transportation improvements. Florida, being a hotspot for newly sprung up metropolitan areas, is naturally going to need more attention. This isn't patronage; it's responsible stewardship.

[depakid]

4. It's simple really- Republicans have a pathological hatred for mass transit

so it makes very little sense to put lines in areas where they predominate.

I say that only half facetiously. All things being equal, why should infrastructure or services be sited where a majority of don't (rationally or not) want them- and surely don't want to pay for them?

[katmondoo]

7. Florida voted for high speed rail years ago

and Jeb Bush put that money somewhere and never went ahead with it. He was opposed to the high speed rail.

[Half and Half]

10. Probably because Jeb Bush was smart enough to realize

that it would be a boondoggle.

"The old saying about not looking a gift horse in the mouth should be challenged by Florida taxpayers, when it comes to today’s announcement of a $1.25 billion grant to start development of a high-speed rail line between Orlando and Tampa. If Florida accepts this money without figuring out how to pay for the rest of the project, there could be very serious consequences for hard-pressed taxpayers.

Unlike most of the other “high-speed” rail projects receiving federal grants, this one is not to upgrade an existing rail line for a top speed of 110 miles per hour (mph) vs the current 79 mph trains. No, the Florida project is for brand new, truly high-speed rail on exclusive, new right of way, along the I-4 highway corridor. This is by far the most expensive form of high-speed rail. A 2009 GAO report that looked at recent high-speed rail projects in France, Spain, and Japan shows them averaging $51 million per mile (excluding one very high-cost Japanese line). For the 84 miles of the Tampa-Orlando route, that totals $4.28 billion. So merely to build this project is going to require another $3 billion from somewhere. Florida is facing a several billion dollar budget deficit this year, so it’s hard to see where the extra money could come from.

It definitely won’t come from private investors, since these kinds of projects do not make a return on their investment. Indeed, a December 2009 report on high-speed rail from the Congressional Research Service (CRS) helpfully points out that of all the dozens of high-speed rail projects build worldwide over the last several decades, only two are “estimated” to have paid for their capital cost out of farebox revenues. All the rest, in Japan, France, Spain, and elsewhere have been largely paid for by general taxpayers.

Then there’s the little matter of operating and maintenance costs. Both GAO and CRS note that whether such a line can cover those costs out of passenger revenues is highly dependent on ridership. The ideal situation is a corridor several hundred miles long anchored by two large, centralized metro areas. The federal fact sheet on the Florida line claims that both Tampa and Orlando are among the largest 20 metro areas; in fact, while Tampa ranks 17th, Orlando is 32nd in size—and both are very spread-out, low-density areas. This corridor does not make CRS’s list of the top 12 city-pairs for potential high-speed rail ridership. In fact, CRS estimates that the train in this corridor would likely reduce traffic on I-4 by less than 2 percent. That doesn’t bode well for high-speed rail ridership, especially since 84 miles is way too short for people to fly, so all potential riders must come from those who would otherwise drive.

Given all this, I estimate that Florida taxpayers will get stuck with an annual operating deficit that they will have to pay for, indefinitely.

Bottom line: this gift horse looks to me like a gift that will keep on taking."

http://reason.org/blog/show/floridas-high-speed-rail-route

[FBaggins]

11. Did I just read the words "Bush" and "smart" used in the same sentence???

I mean... It looked gramatically correct ans all... But just didn't make sense.

[peace frog]

17. Haven't you all noticed

that Jeb Bush proponents/apologists pop up on DU whenever a criticism of the "smart brother" <<gag>> appears.

Watch for more of the same as election year 2012 approaches and Jeb is positioned for VP or even the big Prez enchilada.

[Half and Half]

20. Have you ever noticed that internet forums are full of

partisan knee-jerk retorts that conveniently avoid addressing the substance of the post they're attacking?

I think I have a grand total of 6 posts here, but somehow this guy has uncovered the truth that I am a "Jeb Bush proponents/apologists" thats been quietly lurking, crouched in the shadows, waiting for the perfect moment to pounce on any criticism of the favorite son. I thought my HST avatar would provide me with some cover, but he's seen right through me. *sigh*

[peace frog]

27. Ah yes, the always expected and every-ready

defensive, howling, "*sigh* they're attacking meeeeeeee" response. Right on time, you can set your watch to it.

[Half and Half]

35. Ah yes, the always expected and ever ready

ad hominem attack when someone criticizes an ideological pet project (high speed rail) and said ideologues are presented with contradictory evidence.

[peace frog]

38. Here's a virtual hanky

now dry your eyes, take three deep cleansing breaths and settle down.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftishBrit]

54. High speed rail works very well in Europe

How well it works in America will depend on how well it's run; but I wouldn't knock it. Pleasanter (and better for the environment) than air travel.

[Ignis]

64. Explain in detail how that was an argumentum ad hominem.

I'll prepare my cricket cage in advance for your lack of response.

[Ignis]

63. You found "partisans" at a site called Democratic Underground?!

The horror! :scared:

[peace frog]

37. Jeb is touted as the "smart" brother

Makes perfect sense to a Bushie, whether out and proud or in disguise.

[FBaggins]

40. Welll sure... as a comparative term it's probably fine

He likely IS the smartest of the ones we've seen in public.

But come on... as an absolute description?

[peace frog]

44. Yep.

IQ points don't mean a whole hell of a lot when it's a Bush.

[tosh]

76. Jeb does not get any credit for this.

Florida has been in pursuit of a high speed rail line since (at least) the days when Bob Graham was in the governor's office.

[sandnsea]

2. 13 corridors covering 30 states got money

Where's the conspiracy theory for the rest of the rail lines?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/files/documents/100128_1400-HSRAwards-Summary_FRA%20Revisions.pdf

[elleng]

6. The 'conspiracy' is there are a number of corridors

where people have sought regular rail service to facilitate their regular travel for business, commuting and pleasure. For some, they can meet up with Amtrak.

[sandnsea]

25. This is the most ignorant thread in the history of DU

Bitching about high speed rail. Now I've seen it all. It's so bizarre I can't even wrap my head around the complaint.

[elleng]

28. I MAY choose to ignore you, but not until I understand what you've said.

Clearly you don't understand what I've said. Give it some time, and try reading it again, if you'd like to understand.

[sandnsea]

30. Why don't you try again

But I seriously doubt I'm going to understand anybody bitching about high speed rail, and my comment was about the entirety of the thread moreso than your single comment.

[elleng]

75. Sorry; I speak for myself.

My point was simple, and I was not in the least criticising. I was recognising how such decisions were made, based on need, requests, and likiehood of success.

[juajen]

3. I believe this is a good decision. This area is well known to me,

as I have two sons living there, both unemployed. They are good workers and have a good work ethic, but that area is depressed as hell. This is great news for that area.

[krawhitham]

5. The same reason Ohio got 400 million

Swing State

But it means work for me, and many more

[rucky]

15. Sadly, the trains here'll go 40 mph on average.

10 hours from Cleveland to Cinci. They're still touting it as "high speed" though.

[yodoobo]

19. good god. 10 hours?

I used to drive that on a regular basis.

I would have killed for a high speed train to make that weekly drive more bearable. (its a pretty boring drive)

But driving was about 4 hours.

But there is no way I would use such a service if it added 6 hours to a 4 hour trip.

[Half and Half]

49. I heard somewhere the Ohio line will average 66mph, but still...

[GoCubsGo]

57. The trains there share tracks freight haulers, like CSX

High speed rail trains would not use the old system's tracks. They won't be sharing the tracks with the trains that are hauling box cars and tankers like Amtrak does now.

[FormerDittoHead]

70. Hey! How about the BLUE states? What reward do WE get?

Maybe NJ electing a Republican Gov wasn't a bad idea, if that's how to get some tax dollars coming back to us.

As it is, NJ ranks 50th for the amt of taxes we pay in to what comes back.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/22685.html

The trend, btw, is consistent. If you look at the states who get the LEAST back, the Blue states are bankrolling the Red ones.

I guess we're just 'suckers' for voting Democratic?

Do they really think the Republican (or near-Republican) voters in these states are going to start thinking gov't is a good thing, and that Democrats are their "friends"?

[Paper Roses]

8. Why just airport to Disney and back? What about the rest of FL?

I don't know much about Florida but there certainly must be millions of others for whom this high speed rail would be a benefit. This looks like a speedy way to get to Disney and home again.

[spinbaby]

9. I thought it was Tampa to Orlando

Not airport to Disney.

Although I suspect airport to Disney would get a lot of traffic.

[GoCubsGo]

24. Ahem..

[tosh]

42. Thank you!

:hi:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. The next step (if we're smart, and I don't think we are) would be to build

those lines (putting unemployed construction and other workers to work) as fast as possible and then, once they are popular, communities will begin demanding extensions. For example, I bet that once the lines on the map are completed, people there will be asking for a line from Jacksonville to Orlando, from Pittsburgh to Cleveland, and from Houston to San Antonio.

[csziggy]

53. Actually a commuter rail along the I-4 corridor might be a good idea

There are a lot of people who commute from Lakeland and other towns in Polk County in the middle of that stretch to either Orlando or Tampa. The highways are bumper to bumper morning and evening - I-4, Hwys 60, 27 and 17 are all overloaded. They just built a toll road, the Polk Parkway, to carry people around Lakeland as they commute from the south to the east or west.

If - and this is the big IF - a commuter line went in that was reliable, affordable and efficient, I suspect many people would consider taking it. The biggest problem is that they would still need to take their personal vehicles from home to the main transportation corridor since there are no mass transit systems in the middle of the state worth talking about.

[Ganja Ninja]

12. It's not just a political consideration.

Every one of the new high speed rail projects were studied to determine the need and viability. I-4 is a nightmare to drive. They just widened it and all it does is create and situation where the insane traffic travels at higher speeds and it makes it even more dangerous. Dangerous because the crazies now have room to weave in and out of traffic rather than be confined to one lane by their sheer numbers.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

13. Nelson's hcr vote.

[asdjrocky]

14. Gee, it's too bad all they ever want from Ca is our money.

Our state could really use some high speed rail, in case no one has noticed, we're a pretty big state out here.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

16. Your Senators' votes for hcr were pretty much a lock-in. They needed Nelson...and look

at Wisconsin... Feingold signed on to the hcr bill and they are getting high speed trains. I've loved Russ but it's apparent, everyone has a price.

[asdjrocky]

22. Yeah, we don't even get anything for our money or our votes.

Brilliant.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

26. Same here in NY.

[Romulox]

47. The MASSIVE bailout of Wall Street was also a MASSIVE bailout of New York.

No other state has gotten anything like that infusion of taxpayer $$$. :hi:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

56. I haven't lived in NYC for more than 25 years, and trickle down isn't working here yet. More

stores are closing.

That massive bailout targeted a certain type of NYer and landed right in their pockets. As to tax revenue..I wouldn't count on all that much revenue if those people know how to manage their tax planning ...shelters, etc.

Ask the working class and poorer people if they benefited. Ask the parents who had kids in one of the 19 schools that were just scheduled to be shut down.

Also check up on NYS and the money crunch my state government is in. It is not a pretty picture.

Oh well.... :hi:

[GoCubsGo]

23. There are lines proposed for CA, as well

Numerous other lines throughout the country, as well.

Here's the map: http://www.fra.dot.gov/Downloads/RRdev/hsrmap.pdf



http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/16/obama.rail/
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100127/ap_on_bi_ge/us_obama_high_speed_rail

[sandnsea]

31. Thirteen lines were granted, they're a go

I am shocked by the bitching in this thread. Did these people just not pay any attention yesterday??

[GoCubsGo]

36. Me, too.

The only thing Florida got that the others haven't was the dog and pony show put on yesterday. They might still get one. They just didn't get the one yesterday.

[FarCenter]

34. Lots of those routes can't possibly be economic, and are put in for political reasons

For example, Milwaukee to the Twin Cities, Indianapolis to Louisville, Chicago to Detroit direct instead of via Toledo, Boston to Montreal, the California coast route in an earthquake zone, Dallas to Little Rock, and there are more.

I doubt that an analysis of potential ridership and revenues versus investment would justify any of the above routes. Potential traffic should be easily available from airline traffic data, bus line data, and auto traffic studies.

The map is a good example of how governmental decision making is broken in the US.

[sandnsea]

41. That is mind-boggling

You do know there's already roads and railroads on the California coast, right? And there's no more likelihood they'll get damaged than from a tornado or hurricane, right? And why not Chicago to Detroit and who the fuck wants to go to Toledo?? They all look like good routes to me, especially since they're starting points and will be expanded in the future.

Your bitching is a good example of something being broken.

[ourbluenation]

45. I worked for a gov't run railroad in Calif. and I'm here to tell you that...

the funding is doled out politically. Naive to think otherwise.

[sandnsea]

48. Well then Toledo would be a good idea

Pretty poor politics to skip Ohio in a political game. :crazy:

[FarCenter]

50. Look at the map -- the main line will go Chicago, Toledo, Cleveland

So you can connect Detroit to both Chicago and Cleveland via a short spur from Toledo to Detroit.

Don't spend $10s of millions per mile to build a separate high-speed rail roadbed from Chicago to Detroit. (Unless you think going through Benton Harbor, Kalamazoo, Battle Creek and Ann Arbor is particularly important.)

[sandnsea]

55. here

http://markmaynard.com/?p=5882

[FarCenter]

58. Detroit-Chicago is still a poor idea -- I think that the reason for no Toledo - Detroit route

that it is owned by a short line which is owned by a hedge fund.

[sandnsea]

61. Detroit-Chicago is 2nd most popular Amtrak line

That wouldn't have a thing in the world to do with it now would it. It's the perfect line for a stimulus, it makes structural sense and it's in a state that desperately needs that kind of economic project.

[FarCenter]

65. All of 3 trains a day running at about 47 miles per hour

The existing Amtrak service is no blueprint for high-speed rail. It is mostly politically based, and most Amtrak trains run at a loss outside of the Boston - Washington corridor.

Amtrak should be shut down except for where there is high-speed rail. And new high-speed rail routes should be built based on sound business principles, not on which state's politicians plead unemployment figures.

http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php/resources/more/slevdet/

[sandnsea]

67. You should have said you oppose the whole thing

I live in Oregon. Eugene - Portland - Seattle high speed is fucking brilliant. As the population ages, it's going to be even more brilliant. We should be encouraging people to get out of their cars and onto trains. I can't imagine why you oppose it. But you should at least be forthcoming about your opposition and not pretend it's got anything to do with particular lines here or there.

Later.

[FarCenter]

69. Does this sound like high-speed rail?

WA, Seattle - Portland $ 590 Million - Projects include building bypass tracks to allow for increased train frequency and multiple upgrades to existing track and signal systems. Several safety-related projects will also be funded.

OR, Portland - Eugene $ 8 Million - Investments include upgrading Portland’s Union Station, and engineering and environmental work for track and signaling projects that will increase service reliability and reduce congestion.

This doesnt even say that they will increase speed to 90 mph or 110 mph?

[Occulus]

60. Kalamazoo already has a rail station

and it would be absolutely impossible to put in high-speed rail lines there. There's just no room for it.

What will probably happen is, Kzoo will connect to the high-speed network probably via Lansing or Chicago (not directly, but with a ticket transfer of some sort). I seriously doubt even Grand Rapids is large enough to put it on the high-speed map, despite the political influence of the DeVos family.

[FarCenter]

66. Actually, they are only increasing top speed to 110 mph

See link in reply #65.

They are hoping to get back up to speeds routinely hit by steam locomotives 80 years ago.

[KG]

18. as a floridian, i think the state needs mass-transit intra-city upgrades, not a high speed rail line

parallel to I-4.

it might be great to ride a train back forth across the state, but you're gonna still need a car when you get to where you're going so why not just drive?

[BeFree]

21. True

People need ground transportation when they get there.
Wouldn't small electric cars that are for rent at the stations
become an new industry?

[FarCenter]

52. Amtrak should work with the rental car companies to get as good facilities as the airports have

It's not too important at cities like Boston, NY, Philly, or DC, but other cities need to have rental car facilities at the stations if they want to attract travelers.

For example, neither Avis nor Hertz appear to have a rental location at the Tampa Amtrak station.

[YOY]

62. Actually rental companies are close.

Enterprise will pick you up at the station...most have offices close to our stations.

DC has an Avis right there...not much else in Union for car rental.

[FarCenter]

68. Train stations are not as well organized with respect to rental cars as airports

Most large airports now have extensive shuttle bus systems that take you from the terminal to a rental car center with multiple rental car companies.

Smaller airports with single terminals are even more convenient with multiple rental car counters inside the terminal and the rental car lots a short walk away.

[YOY]

71. The size of most current train terminals prohibits that.

I have seen the Cleveland Amtrak up close and personal recently. I know there is an Enterprise close by and have used them.

[BeFree]

73. They have electric cars?

If they don't have electric 'city cars' they are missing the boat.
Hey, now that's a new business idea!

Have small electric cars at train terminals that can be reserved when you buy a ticket at the other end.

And for longer trips, regular old fossil fueled dinosaur cars.

[YOY]

74. I think you just thought of a smart business concept.

Granted...the HSR needs to come first.

[SteppingRazor]

32. I agree. Here in South Florida, we've got TriRail, which is one reason high-speed rail was secured.

Money for high-speed rail would only come on the condition that the Florida legislature managed to save TriRail, which was set to go out of business as state funds dried up.

Now, I think TriRail's a fine idea, linking Miami to Palm Beach with a commuter train. But once you get to your destination, you're stuck at a TriRail station that's usually pretty far west of the downtown areas. If they built spurs connecting the Fort Lauderdale TriRail station to downtown Fort Lauderdale, I'd take the train to work everyday.

[RoadRage]

29. I'd love to see a few other Mass Transit Lines:

LA to San Francisco
LA to Vegas
Chicago to DC
DC to Boston
Atlanta to Dallas & DC
Dallas to Phoenix
Phoenix to LA

And that's just to start....

Call me in 2060 and let me know if any of them have been started yet... thx.

[annabanana]

33. Oh HELL yeah.. I'd LOVE to see the train system join

at least the 20th Century..

Let's get some decent rail cross country again.

NY to LA,Dallas, Chicago, New Orleans, Phoenix,

I would abandon the highways and airways in an instant if I could take a train in a modicum of comfort.

[YOY]

72. DC to Boston?

That's the Acela. Not as fast as it should be...but there are reasons for that...

[lwcon]

43. MA didn't get much

I guess we turned into a "swing state" a little too late.

[Romulox]

46. The logical corollary is that voting Repulican is how to get $$$ for national Dems

Is that a good lesson? What about we loyal soldiers in the states that "belong" to the Democratic Party?

[anonymous171]

59. Good. This is why politics exist. To help the people. I wish we did this more

Altruism is fucking bullshit when the other side wants to rape and kill you.