Is Pam Tebow A Liar? Abortions Were Illegal In The Philippines...

[babylonsister]

http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/pam-tebow-liar-abortions-were-illegal


Is Pam Tebow A Liar? Abortions Were Illegal In The Philippines When Her Doctor Supposedly Urged Her To Get One
By Susie Madrak Saturday Jan 30, 2010 11:00am


Pretty interesting, don't you think? An entire media mythology has grown up around the noble missionary who carried her child to term against a doctor's advice, and the child grows up to become a devout Christian and football star.

Or maybe not:

As Joe Jervis points out, we’ve been hearing the propaganda for weeks now about how Tim Tebow’s mother was confronted with a difficult pregnancy, encouraged to have an abortion, and made the heroic and courageous choice to carry the pregnancy to term, so that her son Tim would one day sport Bible verses in his eyeblack and have a really hard time at NFL tryouts. As you all know, the propaganda has become even fiercer as Focus on the Family has spent $2.5 million on an anti-choice ad to be aired during the Super Bowl featuring Tebow’s story.

Yeah, well, Gloria Allred begs to differ:

In her exclusive interview with RadarOnline.com, Allred slams the ad and CBS’s decision to air it, pointing out factual inconsistencies with Pam’s story. One glaring one is the fact that the act of abortion is totally illegal in the majority Catholic country of the Philippines – under all circumstances including rape and incest, and even without a provision in the circumstance that the mother’s life is in danger. The law has been in effect since 1930.

Allred says she believes it an impossible scenario to believe that {Filipino} doctors would {have} ever suggested abortion as a viable option for Tebow in the first place. And when you learn that physicians and midwives who perform abortions in the Philippines face six years in prison, and may have their licenses suspended or revoked, and that women who receive abortions – no matter the reason – may be punished with imprisonment for two to six years, it’s easy to see why.

Gloria Allred is threatening to sue CBS if they run the Tebow ad, saying if the ad fails to disclose that abortions were illegal at the time Tebow made her “choice”, "I intend to file a formal complaint of misleading advertising with those federal commissions.”

[lolly]

1. I was wondering when this would come out

The whole thing sounded fishy.

[indy legend]

3. This can't be a surprise to anyone

The right makes a living off of embellishing a story or down right lying to push their agenda. The party that covers up the details of the death of a real hero in Pat Tillman to further support for a senseless war, give out no-bid contracts to their friends and run on family values while they are trying to score same sex lovin' in airport bathrooms, "hiking the appalachian trail", having their parents pay off staffers they had affairs with, and excuse perverts who like to text their underage paiges with obscene messages. If they can find some well-meaning useful idiot to help them along, so be it. The right could never stoop low enough to surprise me. Disgust me YES, surprise me no.

[PassingFair]

7. Welcome to DU!

I agree, there are always MITIGATING circumstances for THEM.

:eyes:

[Kalyke]

48. Go Colts... from the home of Peyton's college years!

And welcome to DU.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hack89]

100. Except for the fact that abortions were common in the Philippines?

In countries like the Philippines, where induced abortion is against the law,3* many women nevertheless seek an abortion—despite conditions that may put their health at risk—rather than give birth to children they cannot care for or do not want. A study using an indirect methodology estimated that in 1994, there were 400,000 induced abortions in the country and 80,000 women hospitalized for complications of induced abortion.4 The Department of Health of the Philippines reported that 12% of all maternal deaths in 1994 were the result of illegal abortion.5

Studies from the 1970s onward have shown that despite the law's severity, abortion appears to be widely practiced.6 Evidence from the mid-1990s indicates that Filipino women of all social classes and backgrounds are having induced abortions.7 They do so under varying circumstances, ranging from safe medical procedures performed for better-off women by trained personnel to procedures in extremely unsafe conditions for poor women who cannot afford to pay for a surgical abortion. The evidence of a survey of health professionals in the mid-1990s suggests that about one-third of women seeking an abortion obtain it from a doctor or nurse, but a high proportion of women consult traditional practitioners or attempt to induce the abortion themselves.8

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3114005.html

[SpiralHawk]

2. Typical Republicon Family Values

Republicon Family Values might consider someday including the truth for a change.

[CTyankee]

4. No, they'll say "Well, if abortion HAD been legal she still wouldn't have had one."

Like that term paper of Obama's hoax. When the truth came out, they said "Well it was true in spirit" or something like that...

[marshall]

94. Allegedly the doctors thought the fetus was already dead

If that is true (and I doubt if records exist to either support or refute it) then what they doctors were proposing was a D&C.

[Gormy Cuss]

108. And when abortion was illegal in this country, that's what some doctors called it - a D&C

That was how middle income women got safe abortions -- that or travel to a state where it was legal.

[Missy Vixen]

125. Wouldn't it have been a different story if the doctors thought the fetus was dead?

Isn't that an automatic removal because it's dangerous for the mother?

Wow. I wonder if Mrs. Tebow is going to amend her story on her own, or if the Tebows will brazen it out anyway...

[cojoel]

47. you would have thought someone might have told them...

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. (Ex 20:16)

or something like that. Was that one ever on the eyeblack?

[KingFlorez]

5. So dishonest

[Bitwit1234]

6. A lot of people might not like her BUT

Allred is not to be intimidated. She goes after anybody if she has the facts behind her. And she ain't gonna let, CBS, Focus on the Family or the FCC off the hook. Look for her to take the bit between her teeth and get this stopped somehow. I know that if there is written proof, than ANY citizen out there can file a complaint with the FCC and go after CBS. And no matter what, after CBS banned the gay dating system ad (no matter it was from someone unknown) and is showing some of the worst stuff in other ads going they deserve to be sued and I hope the FCC levies a triple digit million dollar fine on them.

[Kceres]

27. I didn't really like her either, but she just won me over! n/t

[Ilsa]

82. Go Glo!!! Wow, she's nailed them! I hope they fold! nt

[IcyPeas]

8. If it was suggested by the Dr. ...

I suppose she could've left the Phillipines to get one legally, no?

[spotbird]

10. Think about it

She was a religious zealot in a country that prohibits abortion, what doctor would suggest she have an abortion when there was no reason anyway?

[spotbird]

9. The medicines she would have been

given wouldn't have injured the fetus anyway. In other words, the whole story is a lie.

[lolly]

56. I hadn't heard that

What were the medicines? Some sort of anti-parasitic drug? What was medical opinion on their safety during pregnancy in the 80s?

[Dr.Phool]

11. I suspected she was lying all along.

Just didn't have the time to dig it up.

[FLDCVADem]

12. I'm curious as to how a lawsuit

for misleading advertising can be filed when no product is being sold.


I also don't see why so many pro-choice people are so incensed about this ad - she chose not to have an abortion, so what? Unless at the end of the ad she pushes for ending legal abortion, I don't see the problem.

Would anyone that is upset about this ad be upset about a woman that chose an abortion for health reasons doing a similar ad from the opposite point of view?

[merh]

14. You mean like Ted Bundy's mom saying "if only I had an abortion".

Or Dahmer's or McVeigh's or Bin Laden's?

Yes, I believe the majority of the pro-choice folks would find them just as distasteful and dishonest.

[FLDCVADem]

17. No, I mean like a woman

who was facing a devastating decision with a child she wanted to have, a child with severe disabilities that would have resulted in suffering and/or death after birth. A woman like so many of the women whose stories we heard during the abortion debates during the healthcare reform hearings.

A woman like the women that Dr. Tiller helped for so many years.

If one of these women was going to do a spot during the Super Bowl, would the current outrage still be there? Or are we only expected to be outraged at the story of one choice and not the other?

[merh]

18. Yes, there would be the uproar.

My example is a better example of the mirror opposite of the Tebow commercial.

And I believe there would be the uproar if the commercial you suggested were to be aired. It would be heard from the misguided fools who believe that pro-choice equals anti-life or murderers.

[FLDCVADem]

19. I have no doubt there would be outrage on the right

I'm asking if there would be outrage on the left.

I doubt there would be.

I don't see a problem with the Tebow ad or the one I described.

[merh]

39. But CBS will not allow the airing of a commercial contrary to Tebows

that is the point.

And neither Tebows or your suggested commercial is appropriate for the Super Bowl.

But you know that.

And my suggested commercial is the more appropriate counter commercial to the Tebow commercial.

The Tebow commercial is "look what the world would have lost had I aborted my fetus".

The commercial I suggest is "look how better off the world would be if these mothers aborted their fetuses."

[FLDCVADem]

40. I guess I missed it

Did someone try to air an ad that told the story of a woman that chose to abort?

And, no I don't know that the Tebow ad or the one I suggested is inappropriate - to the contrary, I find neither of them to be inappropriate.

Please try to refrain from telling me what I know, as you obviously aren't very good at it.

[merh]

44. LOL - you aren't very good at it

:rofl:

And just imagine in Mother Mary had aborted, where would Christianity be?

You are a laugh riot, that's for sure.

[FLDCVADem]

45. Ah, the laughing smiley

last resort of those with no response to facts.

[merh]

55. I had a response, one you didn't even bother to respond to.

And if you go back and review our discourse, it was you posting without facts.

You do make me laugh though, I find your sort so entertaining.

[FLDCVADem]

61. My sort?

You mean the sort that uses logic rather than histrionics to make a point?

***edited to add: What didn't I respond to?

[merh]

64. You didn't use logic.

You minimized and excused, but you did not use logic.

[joeybee12]

72. Google is your friend...CBS has had a long-standing policy of not

allowing advocacy ads...now they've changed their minds...there's a nice list of progressive groups they've denied airing ads in the past...such as MoveOn.

[FLDCVADem]

89. Yes, I know

but when did they specifically not allow an ad contrary to Tebow's, as contended?

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

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[Blue_Tires]

130. the point of it is CBS has a history of refusing to air political/hot-button advocacy ads

and they have given flimsy reasons for doing so... The fact that they are allowing this is inconsistent to say it mildly

[onpatrol98]

113. CBS Is Offering Companies An Opportunity to Place An Ad

I heard on the news Friday that CBS is offering groups the opportunity to place pro-choice ads. But, like the Tebow ad, they have to pay for the space. I think the space is worth $2.5 to $2.8 million for a 30 sec spot. Supposedly neither the words abortion or pro-life show up in the ad, simply the pair's story, according to CBS.

I wouldn't be surprised if when we actually do get to see the ad, if it isn't nearly as controversial as the conversation about it has been sounding. I wonder if this an effort to drum up more viewers...not that the Super Bowl in and of itself isn't enough to drum up a large viewing audience.

I wonder if the conversation about the ad has actually caused more discussion about pro-life issues than the actual ad would have provided. It's gotten a lot of free press from the media. You can't put a price on that.

[daleanime]

77. I for one would have no problem with the ad....

if it was truthfully, I'm so tried of lies being used politically.

[FLDCVADem]

114. Thank you for your answer

and for understanding what I'm trying to say.

While I'll have to see the ad before I know for sure, what I've heard of it is a woman telling the story of her decision. Now, if at the end of the ad, she calls for the overturning of Roe v. Wade or for otherwise eliminating choice, then obviously my view of it would change.

I'm just confounded at why anyone that truly believes in choice would be offended because a woman wants to talk about the choice she made. Why are so many people so afraid of people that make choices different from those we might have made?

[TankLV]

91. CBS ALREAD REFUSED TO AIR A FEW ADS FROM OUR SIDE!!!

where the fuck have you been?!!!

plus the FACT that the claims in this ad is a TOTAL LIE!!!

[Name removed]

60. Deleted sub-thread

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[me b zola]

21. There has never been a push to advertise for a service that women have sought throughout history

Women have on their own sought reproductive health care privately-and in many places and times secretly. Providers and advocates really don't have the resources to advertise because they are under constant legal and terrorist attacks. Receiving any medical services from Planned Parenthood is like maneuvering through an obstacle course because of there has been so much restrictive legislation making it difficult for practitioners of women's reproductive health care to just do their jobs.

I really don't have patience for anybody decrying the rights of those who oppose the concept that a woman should be trusted to make health care decisions with her physician~or anybody who is concerned about that viewpoint. Give up some of your basic rights and allow yourself to be treated as a child who must seek permission to receive health care and then we can talk. :grr:

[FLDCVADem]

24. Lighten up Francis

I'm not in favor anyone's reproductive rights being taken away. I'm simply asking what is wrong with a woman doing an ad saying that she chose not to abort?

Choice should be choice, regardless of the decision made.

[starroute]

33. If's wrong is she says that she "chose" but it's a lie

According to the OP she didn't have an actual choice. Philippine law criminalizes abortion, so there is almost no chance her doctor would have recommended it and no chance she would have gone ahead with in. That make the claim a lie.

[FLDCVADem]

34. Right, because there was no such thing as air travel

in, what, 1987? And of course, when abortion was illegal here, no doctors EVER counseled it or performed abortions, right?

What I'm seeing is a bunch of people that are pissed off about a woman speaking publicly about a decision they don't agree with.

So much for "choice".

[CTyankee]

59. And did she have the money to fly, wherever?

I'm not sure but it seems to me that she didn't have the wherewithal to go anywhere. At least not to the U.S. which is a long way.

but this is besides the point. The point is that she said she "CHOSE" to have the child. The point is, "She had no choice."

Your post does not contradict this, actually.

[FLDCVADem]

65. Yes, she did have a choice

Why do you find it unbelievable that she could have left the country to have an abortion, had she wanted to do so? Why do you find it so hard to believe that some women will choose not to have an abortion, even when they know the risks of carrying a pregnancy to term?

I'm pro-choice, which means I support the right of every woman to choose what is best for HER circumstances, not what's best for a political agenda on either side of the issue.

[Bette Noir]

87. If she was so sick that her doctor illegally suggested that she

illegally terminate her pregnancy, exposing both doctor and patient to several years in prison, then she was too sick to travel to another country, where such services were legal.

Sheesh.

[onpatrol98]

137. Hmm...not necessarily true

When my mother was pregnant with my sister, her kindly, family oriented doctor suggested she have an abortion because he didn't deem it safe for her health. When she refused, he told her he couldn't be her doctor anymore. My mother had a heart condition. She was healthy enough to travel. But, at the time, he didn't think her healthy enough to carry a baby full term. He had been her physician for 15 years, but the moment she decided she wanted a second opinion, he balked.

So, she started going to a physician at another facility, who actually did perform abortions, but this physician insisted that he could help her deliver the baby to term and he did. He told her it would be risky, but if she was willing to take the risk, he could help her.

I remember going with her sometimes to the clinic where this physician worked sometimes, these people would rush up to us and show us pictures of fetuses (horrible pictures), but what they didn't know is that my mother was there to save herself and her baby. I was about 10 then. Old enough to be horrified and confused. "Why would these people show these pictures to a child? That's just sick."

My mother is decidedly pro-choice. She defends this vehemently. But, she chose to have her baby. For me, her story has value. Because, now I have a wonderful sister in the deal. It simply makes me feel good to hear it.

I think the ad is going to be a "feel good" ad. Not an ad condemning abortions or people who choose to have them for whatever reason. But, we'll see. We're on Super Bowl countdown now.

[hack89]

124. You are wrong

abortions were common in the Philippines - the law was routinely ignored. A third of all abortions were conducted by doctors or nurses.

She would have had no problem finding a doctor willing to do an abortion.

Look at post 104

[Dr.Phool]

46. The point being that in years past, CBS has refused such ads as.

All people, including gays are accepted by certain churches. They won't accept an ad deemed "controversial" from a liberal standpoint, but along comes Timmie Teabag and his mommy, as spokespeople for James Dobson.

[TankLV]

96. SHE DID NOT "CHOOSE NOT TO ABORT"!!!! THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT!!!

ABORTION HAS ALWAYS BEEN ILLEGAL IN THE PHILLIPINES!!!

SHE COULN'T HAVE "CHOSEN NOT TO ABORT" EVEN IF SHE CLAIMED SHE DID!!!

goddamn lady - stop spewing your crap and READ WHAT THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS!!!

[Obamanaut]

103. If she was not a prisoner while in the PI, then she could well have

flown to another country (there was air travel even in the 1980's), but it would appear that she CHOSE not to.

And by the way, 'illegal' does not equal 'never happens'

edited to add post #104. "Estimated abortion rate in the Philippines about 25 per 1,000 women per year"

It would seem that there are some.

[FLDCVADem]

115. Are you always so angry

when people disagree with you?

BTW, I've stuck to the facts, whereas you're assuming all sorts of unknowns and acribing Pam Tebow's actions to your assumptions.

[fascisthunter]

43. It Does Seem odd that one would use "rights" as an argument to take away other's rights

[shraby]

32. There is a "product" being sold..the overturning of

Roe v. Wade. Being done with a misleading (lie) advertisment.

[FLDCVADem]

42. Ah, so the ad calls for the overturning of Roe v. Wade?

I hadn't heard that.

[CTyankee]

70. If Tebow et al want to abolish a woman's constitutional right to privacy

in making reproductive choices, yes it does mean overturning Roe. Focus on the Family is an antichoice organization. Hint, hint: anything they support with their money with regard to reproductive choice has to basically be about ending a constitutional right women how have. We are in a fight for our daughters and granddaughters rights as citizens, if not their very lives. Taking away a constitutional right is an appalling thought to me. Yet that is what FOTF exactly wants to do. Please do not downplay that aspect of this whole debate. This business is too serious.

[Missy Vixen]

126. Why do you think Focus on the Family is spending $2.8 million?

If you think this is just a "feel-good" story re: Tim Tebow and his mother, you're dumber than a box of hair. Then again, I think there's another agenda here.

Focus on the Family is hemorrhaging money and supporters. They have been for several years now. This is their last-ditch effort to get Roe v. Wade overturned via "oh, gosh, those evil abortionists almost took away Tim "Baby Jesus" Tebow! Nooo! !!!!111!!!!!"

I hope Gloria Allred is successful. Either the Super Bowl accepts all "advocacy" ads, or none at all.

[slackmaster]

80. I'm willing to bet money the ad won't have anything to do with outlawing abortion

I predict a simple "choose life" message, that will be a major let-down for people on both sides.

[DefenseLawyer]

36. I think Focus on the Family sells a "product"

They certainly make a lot of money selling something.

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. Corporations are people and Christianity is a product

Just sayin . . .

[smoogatz]

73. The point is that if abortion's illegal

the "choice" is give birth or go to jail. That's not an actual choice--it is, in fact, the absence of choice. If abortion's illegal, women are coerced by the government into giving birth whether they want to or not. The choosing has already been done for them, by the government. So, saying you "chose" to keep the baby in a country where both seeking and providing abortions are criminal acts is disingenuous. Got it now?

[marshall]

95. Allegedly the doctors thought the fetus was already dead (i.e. a miscarriage)

If that is true (and I doubt if records exist to either support or refute it) then what they doctors were proposing was a D&C.

[smoogatz]

97. A d&c is not an abortion.

Still disingenuous.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FLDCVADem]

118. I hope you get some help for your anger issues

It can't be good for you to have so much anger for those that disagree with you.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

105. Aw, don't be sad, I'm certain your precious ad will be shown.

And that will make you feel better about the recent courtroom bad news, won't it?

[FLDCVADem]

119. It's not my ad

I just don't see the big deal.

And what recent courtroom bad news are you talking about?

[madrchsod]

13. i can`t wait till her bawling baby gets whacked really hard in the nfl

god ain`t going to help him when a 330lb linebacker flattens his christian ass!

[ElmoBlatz]

20. Sounds like you wish she went through with it

[rd_kent]

15. WHAT? A good christian woman a liar? No way! Christians never lie!

[Warpy]

16. Another fetus fetishist is exposed as a craven liar

Gee whiz, what a surprise.

[Igel]

22. Until today, I had never heard of the Tebows.

Pam or her son. (I seriously don't do sports. Or follow the lives of missionaries.)

A couple of points are in order.

The first is the usual response to efforts to make abortion illegal in the US. Even if illegal, women are still going to have them. It's not like "illegal" = "can't be done." Drugs are illegal in the US, right? It's not like good doctors don't advise people to have illegal procedures if they think the procedures should be legal.

The second is that she was American. Could a Philipino doctor recommend that somebody get a procedure legal in the US in the US? I'm guessing the answer is, "Sure."

Then again, this "get an abortion" claim has been around for a few years (the wiki page for her son links to a 2007 article; the link's still live) and apparently is associated not just with the amoebic dysentery but with "placenta abruptus." So while the drugs used to treat amoebic dysentery can be nasty to the fetus, we don't have to assume that she had fairly esoteric knowledge about the drugs used. Although if that were the only thing that could motivate the alleged advice, it would argue for its reliability.

Might be true. Might not be. Don't have enough info. And really, don't much care.

[ElmoBlatz]

23. But couldn't she have just flown to the US to get one?

[FLDCVADem]

26. Sorry, no facts allowed. n/t

[Name removed]

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[Union Yes]

25. K&R nt

[liberal_at_heart]

28. I don't know if her story is true or not but

I'm so tired of hearing some pro-life Christians pat themselves on the back for doing the courageous thing. It's not very humble. It's my experience that the truly heroic and courageous people of the world don't go around bragging about it. It is usually the meek and humble ones that are truly heroic and they're usually the ones you never hear about.

[LaydeeBug]

29. happy to offset an unrec with a rec. Thank Gawd Ms. Allred has finally taken up a worthwhile cause.

nt

[spanone]

30. k&r

[Obamanaut]

31. There is this tidbit, right from the OP, that suggests it might have been

as the Tebow family claims. parens in quotation are mine

"Allred says she (1)believes it an (2)impossible scenario to believe that {Filipino} doctors would {have} ever suggested abortion as a viable option for Tebow in the first place. And (3)when you learn that physicians and midwives who perform abortions in the Philippines face six years in prison, and may have their licenses suspended or revoked..."

(1)'believes' is not proof of anything


(2)"...impossible scenario to believe that {Filipino} doctors would {have} ever suggested abortion..." and (3) "...when you learn that physicians and midwives who perform abortions..."

If it is true that physicians and midwives who perform abortions are penalized, then it must also be true that some do perform them. If that is true, then it IS indeed possible to believe that a (Filipino) doctor may have suggested such a procedure.

It is also possible that the above mentioned doctor may have even suggested going out of the country for this procedure. There was air travel to/from Philippines even then.

[shraby]

35. I would think a physician under those circumstances

would be very reluctant to recommend an abortion, because it could be cause for him to be put in jail for suggesting one.

[FLDCVADem]

37. Illegal to suggest an abortion? n/t

[jmowreader]

49. In the Philippines? Yes.

It would be something like "inducement to seek abortion services" or "coercion to obtain an abortion."

[FLDCVADem]

50. I'd like to see a cite for that claim n/t

[lolly]

57. Read the OP

Yes--abortion is illegal. Anyone participating or aiding in one is eligible for jail.

Including the mother.

[FLDCVADem]

63. I read the OP

and I saw nothing that said it was illegal for a doctor to suggest an abortion.

[Obamanaut]

38. Can we assume that some in fact do just that, sub rosa? And some

are caught. The OP clearly states that the ones who do ARE penalized by imprisonment for performing the procedure.

I think the crux of this matter is that no one wants to give Ms Tebow the benefit of the doubt.

[lolly]

58. Ms Tebow is now spokeswoman for FoF

A major political player with extremely controversial positions.

She is promoting that organization by appearing on their ads.

She had no right to think she would be immune from any questions, especially about a story that has some gaping holes in it.


Although I'm sure FoF thought/hoped that she would would enjoy immunity, being a good Christian, mom to football hero, etc., she has no right to be exempt from skepticism when she throws her story out in public on the most-watched TV show of the year.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

107. Obviously, some posters think that makes her MORE trustworthy, not less. Amazing. -nt

[hack89]

112. I think it very likely to find a doctor recommending abortion

considering how common it was.

In countries like the Philippines, where induced abortion is against the law,3* many women nevertheless seek an abortion—despite conditions that may put their health at risk—rather than give birth to children they cannot care for or do not want. A study using an indirect methodology estimated that in 1994, there were 400,000 induced abortions in the country and 80,000 women hospitalized for complications of induced abortion.4 The Department of Health of the Philippines reported that 12% of all maternal deaths in 1994 were the result of illegal abortion.5

Studies from the 1970s onward have shown that despite the law's severity, abortion appears to be widely practiced.6 Evidence from the mid-1990s indicates that Filipino women of all social classes and backgrounds are having induced abortions.7 They do so under varying circumstances, ranging from safe medical procedures performed for better-off women by trained personnel to procedures in extremely unsafe conditions for poor women who cannot afford to pay for a surgical abortion. The evidence of a survey of health professionals in the mid-1990s suggests that about one-third of women seeking an abortion obtain it from a doctor or nurse, but a high proportion of women consult traditional practitioners or attempt to induce the abortion themselves.8

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3114005.html

[Obamanaut]

121. Why are there no replies to your posts by the folks who want to insist

there are no abortions in the PI?

Surely they've been read.

[hack89]

122. Facts always kill a righteous rant - there are a lot of (self)righteous people here. nt

[Coexist]

51. knr

[tsuki]

66. I wonder what the response to the ad will be. How many men will

want to watch an anti-abortion ad during the super bowl?

I know CBS said that they had sold all the ad spots and that's why they rejected ManCrunch, but I wonder. Ad response in the super bowl has not done all that well since Apple.

[babylonsister]

67. Here's one man's response...

Keep Your Culture War Out of My Superbowl!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x514496

[tsuki]

81. "Leave God alone, and let him enjoy the game." Amen.

[JCMach1]

68. If it is like UAE, then D&C IS legal...

Doctors even refer to it as 'abortion' weirdly enough though abortion is illegal.

D&C would be used in problem pregnancies and miscarriages.

I don't doubt doctors may have offered Ms. Tebow a D&C.


However, that doesn't change the fact that she's a moralizing sack of shit.

[mzteris]

101. abortion means to abort

it has come to mean the deliberate aborting.

Medically they now use the term "spontaneous abortion" to mean what most people call "miscarriage".

[Djinn]

69. After years of fighting the womb Nazis here

in Australia where the topic is pretty much uncontroversial and the overwhelming majority believe in a woman's right to access abortion if she chooses it doesn't surprise me that a little creative editing is used by the extreme whack jobs that this debate produces in the US.

However over and above her 'leave a few facts out' method of story telling, who CARES if SHE chose to continue with her pregnancy. Bully for her. Is there ANYONE in the US advocating that women MUST abort?

She had her choice and should leave other people to theirs without her nauseating self righteousness

[Christa]

71. K & R

and kudos to Gloria Allred.

Re the whole discussion about Pam Tebow flying to another country to have the abortion done: I wish people would thing in practical terms before they post.

Missionaries usually have no money to spare for overseas trips or to pay for an abortion.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spanone]

78. yep, she had a C H O I C E, didn't she.

[slackmaster]

75. All kinds of bleating and braying. And still, nobody has actually seen the ad yet.

:eyes:

[Pithlet]

129. Gee. Do you think a PETA ad would be more or less likely to be pro meat?

Or would you have to wait and see the ad to make that determination first? :rolleyes:

[slackmaster]

136. I think a PETA ad could be pro-choice on meat

I'd have to see it first.

:hi:

[DCBob]

79. This is a good reason why all liberal minded Americans must stick together...

or this country is headed back to the dark ages.

[cartach]

83. Illegal ? Since when

has the fact that abortions are illegal in certain jurisdictions deterred certain Doctors from performing them ? Gloria Allred will fall flat on her face and so she should. As a lawyer especially, the last thing she should do is say that because something is illegal it was unlikely to or didn't, happen. What a bunch of unadulterated crap and Im surprised that so many DU'ers are naive and /or bigoted enough to go along with it. Sounds like a lot of overreaction to the fact someone is a Christian. Who the hell cares ? And if you do get all worked up about this and fall for the BS you're just a bad as the right wing zealots.

[kevinbgoode]

85. Really? So. . .why would a doctor suggest a procedure

in a country where the procedure is illegal and he would face six years in prison. . .to a patient who is an alleged "Christian" missionary?

Wouldn't her very religious belief already dictate to her that she never really had a choice and it would be ridiculous for any doctor to risk losing his license, his practice, and face six years in prison to tell a "Christian" missionary to consider an abortion?

[hack89]

99. Abortions are (and were) were common in the Philippines

In countries like the Philippines, where induced abortion is against the law,3* many women nevertheless seek an abortion—despite conditions that may put their health at risk—rather than give birth to children they cannot care for or do not want. A study using an indirect methodology estimated that in 1994, there were 400,000 induced abortions in the country and 80,000 women hospitalized for complications of induced abortion.4 The Department of Health of the Philippines reported that 12% of all maternal deaths in 1994 were the result of illegal abortion.5

Studies from the 1970s onward have shown that despite the law's severity, abortion appears to be widely practiced.6 Evidence from the mid-1990s indicates that Filipino women of all social classes and backgrounds are having induced abortions.7 They do so under varying circumstances, ranging from safe medical procedures performed for better-off women by trained personnel to procedures in extremely unsafe conditions for poor women who cannot afford to pay for a surgical abortion. The evidence of a survey of health professionals in the mid-1990s suggests that about one-third of women seeking an abortion obtain it from a doctor or nurse, but a high proportion of women consult traditional practitioners or attempt to induce the abortion themselves.8

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3114005.html

[kevinbgoode]

120. That doesn't answer the question.

n/t

[hack89]

123. Sure it does

it demonstrates that the law was so laxly enforced that health care professionals routinely ignored it. Why would a doctor suggest an abortion? Because he could pick up some extra cash and he knew he could get away with it. Or, if you want a more positive reason, the doctor supported a woman's right to choose and was willing to risk incarceration.

In any case, there is nothing here that make Pam Tebow a liar.

[kevinbgoode]

127. Why would he suggest an abortion to an alleged "Christian"

missionary?

[hack89]

128. Perhaps he understands human nature better then you do

perhaps he understands that some peoples beliefs are not so strong in times of crisis. Perhaps he understands that some people are hypocrites. I don't know - just like you I wasn't there.

[kevinbgoode]

132. Apparently not. . .

since the whole point of the advertisement is to emphasize that she made the correct "choice."

But given the predispositions of her "faith" - which also demands these choices not be permitted for anyone - it is rather difficult to fathom that she struggled.

[hack89]

134. Not everyone is as strong as you are?

not every choice is easy - I understand perfectly why her choice was difficult having been in a similar situation myself.

Why is it so important to hate this woman? You disagree with her abortion views - that doesn't make her evil.

[Obamanaut]

133. Perhaps for health and well being of the patient? n/t

[FLDCVADem]

92. Best post on the entire thread

Granted, Wikipedia is not the best of sources, so take it for what it's worth. But according to numbers there, ~400,000 abortions were performed in the Phillipines in 1994, with 2/3 of them being self-induced or performed by practitioners of folk medicine. That leaves 1/3 or ~133,333 performed by whom? Doctors? But of course they wouldn't do that, because it's illegal.

Just like doctors in the U.S. never performed abortions when they were illegal...right.

[Obamanaut]

109. +1 n/t

[spanone]

111. seems like you are the one falling for the unadulterated crap

[Hepburn]

84. What total bullshit....

...She's a "good" Christian? I guess lying is OK then, right? :shrug:

[maseman]

86. Who gives a fuck

Like one ad in the super bowl will change anyone's mind. I say let the right-wing fuckwads at Focus blow their two mill.

[TankLV]

88. ...but yet MoveOn STILL can't air an ad that THEY can pay for...

it's the HYPOCRISY...

[hack89]

98. Estimated abortion rate in the Philippines about 25 per 1,000 women per year

In countries like the Philippines, where induced abortion is against the law,3* many women nevertheless seek an abortion—despite conditions that may put their health at risk—rather than give birth to children they cannot care for or do not want. A study using an indirect methodology estimated that in 1994, there were 400,000 induced abortions in the country and 80,000 women hospitalized for complications of induced abortion.4 The Department of Health of the Philippines reported that 12% of all maternal deaths in 1994 were the result of illegal abortion.5

Studies from the 1970s onward have shown that despite the law's severity, abortion appears to be widely practiced.6 Evidence from the mid-1990s indicates that Filipino women of all social classes and backgrounds are having induced abortions.7 They do so under varying circumstances, ranging from safe medical procedures performed for better-off women by trained personnel to procedures in extremely unsafe conditions for poor women who cannot afford to pay for a surgical abortion. The evidence of a survey of health professionals in the mid-1990s suggests that about one-third of women seeking an abortion obtain it from a doctor or nurse, but a high proportion of women consult traditional practitioners or attempt to induce the abortion themselves.8

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3114005.html

[Boudica the Lyoness]

102. Interesting article.

I read this in the Bedford On Sunday newspaper about a 16 year old girl in England who had an abortion:

"News - The girl, 16, who wishes to remain anonymous
The girl, 16, who wishes to remain anonymous
The girl lives in Luton but has been kicked out of home by her strictly religious mother, who was born and raised in the Philippines where abortion is illegal and carries a jail sentence.

The teenager who has told Luton & Dunstable Express the full scale of her horror story, was two months pregnant when she underwent the termination at a clinic on January 4.

Four days later she began suffering side effects of ‘unbearable pain’ and blood loss and was rushed by ambulance to A&E at Luton and Dunstable Hospital.

After emergency treatment, she was placed on a drip in a ward where she recognised the nurse as being a friend of her auntie, who told the mother about the abortion the next day. The girl, having recovered and been released from hospital, was confronted by her mother, who had raised her according to her strict Catholic beliefs, and an argument ensued.

The daughter then left the house but was sent text messages from her mother saying: ‘You f...ing make me sick, ashamed, disgusted – I hope you rot in hell’ and calling her a ‘murderer’.

The girl is a British national and a Catholic, but is not deeply religious like her mother".


Here's a link to the full article;

http://www.bedfordshire-news.co.uk/bedsonsunday-news/displayarticle.asp?id=479750

[mzteris]

104. good catholic mom, huh?

bitch.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

110. You're right about that.

Horrible woman.

[DisgustedInMN]

106. I had already decided to boycott...

.. watching the SB because of CBS's choice to air the ad. This simply cements it for me.

As to Repubs and especially NUTJOB "good christians" lying to advance their bigotted, narrow-minded, hate-filled, inhuman agenda? Well, no shit, that's SOP for them. It's only news when they don't lie.

[kiranon]

117. We're going skiing. Great time to hit the slopes. Won't watch SB either.

[WCGreen]

116. Perhaps she never trusted a Filipino doctor to lay hands on her

and went to a doctor at the US Base...

I wonder...

That would be just as bad in my book since she wouldn't trust the natives she was supposedly there to mission...

[Rage for Order]

131. GO PAM!!! GO TIM!!! n/t

[jrickey]

135. Pam Tebow, Gloria Alread, Abortion

Pam Tebow is not lying. I've lived in the PI for 25 years. Among the poor, abortion is the PRIMARY form of birth control. Among the not-so-poor, abortion is also common. Abortion is commonly performed by doctors, non-medical doctors, or through taking medication which will abort early pregnancy. Yes, it is technically illegal, but yes, it is common in the Philippines.

[onpatrol98]

138. Good Luck!

I never doubted that. Since when did people stop doing anything, simply because it was illegal? I'm looking forward to the Super Bowl and now, I definitely want to see the ad,just to see if the hoopla was worth it. I usually like the game and the ads. I used to love the Bud Bowl.

I'm hoping the Saints will win, and as long as no one's clothing malfunctions, it should be fun.

I need to start surfing the web for Chili recipes...maybe a good 7 bean Chili.