For all the money that the Vatican has, why are they not stepping up to support a country that is

[rd_kent]

mostly catholic. Sure, the various catholic aid agencies are helping where they can and taking donations..

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1000139.htm



but why has the Vatican, with its BILLIONS in the coffers, not stepped up to support its own? Have they done it and I just missed it?

[Captain Hilts]

1. It has sent aid. Like a lot of folks they might be holding back some because of the HUGE

influx. But I know they were one of the first to send help.

But, yeah, it's kind of like how the Saudis don't do near what they could for poor Muslims in the Middle East, etc.

[anonymous171]

2. Does anyone really know how much money they have? nt

[salguine]

4. The Vatican owns an art collection that is so vast and so priceless, that most

experts say the idea of even trying to estimate its value is laughable.

What would Jesus say.

[madrchsod]

11. they also have a small chapel/church in south america....

that everything in it is solid gold. the walls,altar....

[Democrat_in_Houston]

3. Just missing it, I'm sure. Catholic relief agencies do a lot of work with the poor, and

I'm sure they are working in Haiti.

You have to remember that the RCC is "cash" poor, and their members don't tithe and give nearly as much - in general - as a lot of fundie churches do. My church does more for the poor than the five fundie churches put together down the road. We actually take care of the poor instead of sending our kids on ski trips with tax free church money. :evilfrown:

[OhioChick]

5. Caritas Aid Reaches Haiti Quake Survivors (response to OP...not #3)

Thursday, January 14, 2010

VATICAN CITY (CNS)—Caritas Internationalis, the Vatican-based umbrella organization for Catholic charities, quickly delivered aid to the survivors of the Haiti earthquake but was in urgent need of additional relief materials.

The Caritas staff in Haiti visited devastated areas of the capital Port-au-Prince Jan. 13 to determine what the immediate needs were. At least 60 tents were distributed to families, and first aid was given to survivors in clinics and hospitals, Caritas said in a statement from its Vatican headquarters.

Joseph Jonides Villarson, head of emergencies for Caritas Haiti, said it was the worst disaster Haiti has experienced.

"Many people have been killed in Port-au-Prince. Their bodies are everywhere on the streets of the capital. People are still under the debris. The hospitals are overwhelmed with the dead and injured. The risk of disease is great," he said.

Villarson said the streets were filled with people who do not know where to go, and there was a real possibility of violence and more looting.

"There is very little visible presence of the police. Caritas Haiti President Bishop Pierre Andre Dumas of Anse-a-Veau et Miragoane has appealed on the radio for calm and solidarity," he said.

http://americancatholic.org/news/report.aspx?id=2099

Snip~ Throughout Haiti, Caritas and its partners have warehouses, 200 medical centers and a community network of volunteers who have been mobilized to deliver aid, he said. Meanwhile, Caritas Internationalis was sending a team of international staff to support operations to provide food, shelter, sanitation, communications and logistics.

[rd_kent]

10. Does that seem like a pittance to you, compared to what they have?

It does to me, anyway.

[rd_kent]

7. I know that the Catholic Releif Agencies are doing everything they can, but I mean the VATICAN

with its BILLIONS, yes BILLIONS of dollars in cash ans assets.

[SharonAnn]

36. Catholic aid is distributed through Catholic Charities and other Catholic Aid agencies.

Just like the United States give its aid through the State Department (Agency for International Development), the military (Army, Navy, Coast Guard, etc.), the American Red Cross, and other Federal as well as charitable agencies.

Sheesh, it's not complicated.

[Lyric]

12. An acquaintance of mine owns a beautiful piece of art.

I can't name the exact piece as it could potentially identify him, but it's a piece of original art by a very famous comic book artist and writer, and it's worth a LOT of money.

The other day he was griping to me over e-mail about how he's having a hard time keeping up with his mortgage after his lost job. That his kids are in danger of losing their (already small) college fund. Can you imagine how I was pulling my hair out, trying to be as empathetic as possible, but ultimately failing--at least in my heart? Treasured family heirloom or not, those are his KIDS. His HOUSE. Is the prestige of "owning" that piece of art SO important to him that he would sacrifice his own family on the altar of his ego?

The same principal applies to the Vatican, IMHO. The sale of just ONE of those priceless sculptures, statues, manuscripts, or paintings could fund an enormous amount of good. Sell it to a museum and the public still has access to it. Sell ten of them and the Vatican could practically pay for an entire African nation to have the AIDS medication it so desperately needs. The Vatican owns thousands of those pieces; a handful fewer wouldn't make a difference. But it will never, ever happen because the hierarchy of the church places more value on owning prestigious "stuff" than on easing as much suffering as they possibly can.

I will never be able to understand or condone this. Never. I also don't believe that members of RCC churches don't give as much as members of Protestant churches. The MOST generous people than I have ever known in my life have been simple lay members of the Catholic church here in America. I find it hard to believe that those people are somehow less generous for church outreach projects than are the Protestant churches.

[sandnsea]

19. Meh, houses come and go

You don't hock the family jewels over a stupid house. If you're starving in the streets, maybe, but even then there has to be value in something beyond the here and now or life loses a lot of its worth.

The Vatican does not keep art because it places value on prestigious "stuff". The art represents the history of the Church, in locations all over the world. It's history and the Church loses itself if it lets its history be scattered to the winds.

Should we sell some original documents in the Smithsonian to pay down the debt?

What do we do in fifty years when the debt is even higher than it is now? The country still has debt and we're without a treasured heirloom for our children to enjoy and place their faith in.

There are many many fair criticisms of the Church, enough that I'll probably never go back. Their collection of art and historic documents isn't one of them, imo.

[rd_kent]

24. I really am trying to be civil with you, but you have so many strawmen standing right now

you could have your own army.

[rd_kent]

23. What makes it even MORE frustrating is that the Vatican does NOT allow the public to access

much of that "treasure" at all. It really is a travesty on so many levels.

[anonymous171]

26. Don't they run a museum?

[rd_kent]

27. Yes, and?

Most of the "stuff" they have is NOT available to the general public. That is a well documented fact, as is the value of their assets, etc., that you seemed oblivious to upthread.

[anonymous171]

28. I want links though. I am having trouble finding any information on the Vatican's horde

[rd_kent]

31. Sorry, cannot help you. I would just have to do a google search to get them for you

so I guess you can do the same.

Normally, I would agree that the one making an assertion needs to provide a link to support the assertion, and I would provide the evidence, but in this case, these facts are so well documented, it would be like asking for proof that we need air to survive.

You may disagree, and thats okay, but I am not going to debate this particular point with you.

[scarletwoman]

29. How so? Are you talking about art or about old manuscripts?

It's true that the Vatican Library has restrictions on access, but paintings and sculptures and frescoes are in public view all over Vatican City.

[scarletwoman]

25. Museums can't afford to buy much of anything, they depend on donations to fund acquisitions.

So, unless you want the Vatican to sell to wealthy private buyers who will hide those pieces away from the public, we are better served by the Vatican keeping and maintaining those treasures where the public has access to them.

[sandnsea]

6. The Catholic Church has given $13 million

and that was several weeks ago. They're the largest global charitable organization. Much of the "coffers" are church buildings around the world. You think they should sell them?

http://www.cnbc.com/id/34940296

[rd_kent]

9. That is what it has taken in DONATIONS, not given out of its own pockets!

Other major recipients include the U.S. fund for UNICEF at more than $18 million, and Catholic Relief Services at $13 million.


They have RECEIVED donations of $13 Million. But I am not talking about Relief agencies, I am talking about the VATICAN, where the POPE lives in opulence like a king, which DOES have BILLIONS.

[sandnsea]

14. So he should sell a chalice?

Is that what you're saying? I have never understood this criticism of the Catholic Church. Have you seen some of the Muslim mosques? They have centuries of art and buildings that are worth billions too. Is anybody asking why they haven't sold everything to help Afghanistan?

Have you compared the value of the Vatican holdings with the value of the US federal holdings? The Vatican is a government, as well as the center of the Catholic Church.

[rd_kent]

21. You seem to be missing my point.

I am not bashing religion (though I usually do, admittedly) in this case. I am asking why the Vatican, the head of the apparatus known as the Catholic Church, that has BILLIONS of dollars in assets, has not done more to assist the very people that follow its rules and dogma.

The US government has done more for Haiti AND the rest of the worlds other disaster victims, that were predominately Catholic, that the actual Catholic Church has.

I see massive hypocrisy on the side of the Vatican.....the opulent buildings, the massive art collections, the expensive wardrobes, the cost to put on the religious theater everyday.......while the very people that BELIEVE what that same organization says they should believe suffer horribly....and have done very little to directly assist.

You ask should they sell a chalice? If there is no money to assist those catholics that need the help, then YES, they should sell whatever they have to to help those that support them.

[anonymous171]

15. Link? I know the pope is a rich bastard, but is the Vatican really THAT wealthy?

[dipsydoodle]

20. Was that a joke ?

:shrug:

Apparently its the 18th wealthiest nation in the world. I suppose you did know its a sovereign state ?

[malaise]

Have you ever read the history of this church

They're the oldest multinational corporation on the planet. They plundered and got rich in the name of Jebus. I'm sure they're currently assessing how many of their properties were destroyed. I'm betting they still own loads of prime Haitian real estate. Please get real.

[Libertas1776]

8. Not to defend the Vatican

but they're "coffers" are not as expansive as they once were. I mean, they don't exactly have boatloads of gold tributes coming in from the new world anymore, and church membership is down the world over. In fact, I believe one of their main sources of income these days is owning stain glass window factories, or so I have been told.

[jwirr]

13. They are behind the Catholic Relief Services. The biggest thing they

could give Haiti in encouragement to use birth control. That would go a long way in helping the economic situation in Haiti.

[anonymous171]

16. They don't encourage birth control in Spain either

Last I heard their economy was doing well.

[jwirr]

17. They do discourage birth control throughout the world and in many

very poor countries.

[rd_kent]

22. I agree with you 100%, but that assistance would be too little, too late....

[dipsydoodle]

18. Haiti may not be one of the countries

where "stolen" gold was given to the Vatican so maybe they think they don't owe them. :sarcasm:

[kevinbgoode]

30. Because Haiti hasn't passed same-sex marriage

now if it had, the Vatican would be collecting monies for the repeal referendum fight every mass.

[Igel]

32. The Catholic Church is distributed.

The American assets are held by an American Catholic Church and have to be disbursed by the American Catholic Church. Same in many other countries. So "its" coffers are actually a lot of smaller ones, some of which are large and some of which are small, and all of which are run like as local churches--they first have to take care of their own business, then plan for their future, then help others.

So while the Catholic Church in the US may contribute, it also has to keep in mind that it has its own infrastructure, employees, and members to look after; then it helps support the supranational organization; then it has to look after charitable activities in its own country and elsewhere. There's no shortage of need--just some are higher profile than others.

The Vatican has billions in illiquid assets. Some were very valuable when commissioned, bought, taken, donated, etc. Most are far, far more valuable simply because they've appreciated. They have their own history, their own cultural outlook, their own doctrines. What they do is up to them, and believe them and their god.

My church had a fairly wealthy person in it. He offered to front most of the money for putting up a church building (which, for various reasons, never happened). During the duration of this offer we had a bit of a crisis with our 3rd tithe fund, used for widows and the needy. He was silent. Somebody challenged him as to why he wasn't helping out. He said it wasn't any of their business: It wasn't required that he donate to that cause and he had his own reasons, none of which were anybody else's business--and that the challenger himself wasn't exactly indigent and he should judge himself first instead of others. The challenger didn't cough up so much as a nickel, but at least he was smart enough to be quiet.

[Tippy]

33. What most fail to realize...we the parishioners are the church....

Twinned parishes scramble to get aid to Haiti

Theresa Laurence, Andy Telli, Tennessee Register

The earthquake that rocked Haiti on Jan. 12 also sent into disarray plans by medical mission teams from parishes in the Diocese of Nashville to visit the country.

Parishes with long-standing plans to travel to Haiti for medical missions in late January and early February have been scrambling to re-schedule canceled flights and re-direct their medicine and supplies to the hardest hit areas.

CNS photo/Eduardo Munoz, Reuters: Men carry a casket amid hundreds of bodies outside Port-au-Prince General Hospital in Haiti Jan. 14. The death toll in Haiti's catastrophic earthquake could run as high as 200,000 people. An estimated 3 million others will require emergency assistance, according to aid groups.

http://www.dioceseofnashville.com/a-haiti1.htm


My Parish is a Twinned Parish....We have people on the ground in Haiti year round. I take offense at your implications.

[rd_kent]

34. I'm sorry you do, for that is not my intention.

I specifically stated that I know and understand what catholic charities and groups are doing. My post specifically addressed what I see as a lack of participation on the side of the VATICAN!


Thanks for helping these people, they need it.

[rd_kent]

35. .