Okay DUers, a little help

[Sweet Freedom]

Yes, a "send-to-everyone-on-your-distribution-list" e-mail that I received from a soldier. No I don't want to delete it and just ignore it. I'd like to respond, but could use some help. I've already checked snopes and the only "false" part is the author's name (but she agrees with the sentiment)

Thanks! :hi:

Here it is:

"Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was
> > it or was it not started
> > by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on
> > September 11, 2001?
> >
> >
> > Were people from all over the world, mostly
> > Americans, not brutally murdered
> > that day, in downtown Manhattan , across the Potomac
> > from our nation's
> > capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania ?
> >
> >
> > Did nearly three thousand men, women and children
> > die a horrible, burning or
> > crushing death that day, or didn't they?
> >
> >
> > And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran
> > was "desecrated" when an
> > overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet?
> >
> >
> > Well, I don't. I don't care at all.
> >
> >
> > I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns
> > himself in and repents for
> > incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.
> >
> >
> > I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the
> > Middle East start caring
> > about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which
> > is a crime in Saudi Arabia
> >
> >
> > I'll care when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi tells the world
> > he is sorry for hacking
> > off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his
> > gurgling slashed throat.
> >
> >
> > I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents"
> > in Iraq come out and
> > fight like men instead of disrespecting their own
> > religion by hiding in mosques.
> >
> >
> > I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow
> > themselves up in search of
> > nirvana care about the innocent children within
> > range of their suicide bombs.
> >
> >
> > I'll care when the American media stops pretending
> > that their First
> > Amendment liberties are somehow derived from
> > international law instead of the United
> > States Constitution's Bill of Rights.
> >
> >
> > In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave
> > marine roughing up an
> > Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I
> > don't care.
> >
> >
> > When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi
> > prisoners who have been
> > humiliated in what amounts to a college-hazing
> > incident, rest assured that I
> > don't care.
> >
> >
> > When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head
> > when he is told not to
> > move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take
> > it to the bank that I
> > don't care.
> >
> >
> > When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran
> > and a prayer mat, and
> > fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax
> > dollars, is complaining that his
> > holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely
> > believe in your heart of
> > hearts that I don't care.
> >
> >
> > And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes
> > it's spelled "Koran" and
> > other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and ----
> > you guessed it - - I don't
> > care ! ! ! ! !
> >
> >
> > If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to
> > all your e-mail friends.
> > Sooner or later, it'll get to the people responsible
> > for this ridiculous
> > behavior!
> >
> >
> > If you don't agree, then by all means hit the
> > delete button.
> >
> >
> > Should you choose the latter, then please don't
> > complain when more
> > atrocities committed by radical Muslims happen here
> > in our great country.
> >
> >
> > I am not deleting this, I am sending it on, but
> > only after
> >
> >
> > I add:
> >
> >
> > --"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if
> > they made a difference
> > in the world. But, the Marines don't have that
> > problem."
> >
> > -- Ronald Reagan

[MadMaddie]

1. What's sad about this if this is really a Marine writing this

is that we all know "War is Hell".

However; the difference between us (Americans) and them...is that we have always been able to say we are better then our enemy...I don't think we can say that at this point...

We have to change the course we are on...and get our soldiars home.

[Sweet Freedom]

4. It was originally written by a freelance columnist

named Doug Patton. It was accidentally attributed to a woman who simply forwarded the e-mail.

[Olney Blue]

2. I get emails like this from a GOP friend of mine.

I've found that there is no way to have a rational discussion with people who believe this way.

I wish you luck- I don't have any constructive advice. :hi:

[Sweet Freedom]

16. Thanks

Next time you get one of those e-mails, you may want to check out this group:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=284

I've tried to collect the best responses and post them in one place for quick reference. You may not be able to change a mind, but you will probably get them to take you off of their distribution list!

[walldude]

3. Can't argue with this kind of simple mind

there is no point explaining that we have killed half a million people who did nothing to us. Gee using his logic, we deserve what we get..

[Kutjara]

5. And because the writer doesn't care...

...wars like this will go on and on and on forever.

The comment about suicide bombers seeking "nirvana" shows that not only doesn't the writer care, they don't know. He/she knows nothing about Islam (or indeed Buddhism), nothing about the cultures of the countries they occupy, nothing about the history that has led humanity to this appalling state.

By not caring, the writer is allowing themselves to be manipulated by propaganda, "theirs" and "ours." Leaders will always use ordinary people in the furtherance of grandiose ambitions, regardless of the cost to those ordinary people. All too often throughout history, ordinary people have been complicit in their own subjugation. By believing the propaganda and not caring about both sides of the story, we forge the chains of our own slavery.

It is the horde of people who "don't care", led by those whose interest is served by the ignorance and intolerance of the masses, that will carry the human race over the cliff.

[Sweet Freedom]

7. I love your last line

I may use it (if okay with you?)

[Kutjara]

8. By all means.

I'm glad you found it useful. :hi:

[uppityperson]

6. (my responses in paranthesis)

Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't
(define "war on terror" first. Then I might be able to answer)

Was
> > it or was it not started
> > by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on
> > September 11, 2001?
> >

(Are you saying the USA invaded and occupied Iraq because of the 9/11 bombings? How many Iraqis were involved with thte 9/11 bombings?)


> >
> > Were people from all over the world, mostly
> > Americans, not brutally murdered
> > that day, in downtown Manhattan , across the Potomac
> > from our nation's
> > capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania ?
> >

(yes, lots of people were murdered)

> >
> > Did nearly three thousand men, women and children
> > die a horrible, burning or
> > crushing death that day, or didn't they?
> >
> >
(that is what the official numbers estimate)

> > And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran
> > was "desecrated" when an
> > overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet?
> >
> >
(humane people care when others cause harm)

> > Well, I don't. I don't care at all.
> >
(there you are)

> >
> > I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns
> > himself in and repents for
> > incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.
> >
(What connection does Osama have with Iraq or Abu Ghraib?)

> >
> > I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the
> > Middle East start caring
> > about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which
> > is a crime in Saudi Arabia
> >
(Didn't Jesus say something like "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?)

> >
> > I'll care when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi tells the world
> > he is sorry for hacking
> > off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his
> > gurgling slashed throat.
> >
(That was a bad thing to do. Why was Nick Berg in Iraq?)
> >
> > I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents"
> > in Iraq come out and
> > fight like men instead of disrespecting their own
> > religion by hiding in mosques.
> >
(You will respect the "insurgents" only when they fight face to face?)
> >
> > I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow
> > themselves up in search of
> > nirvana care about the innocent children within
> > range of their suicide bombs.
> >
(You will care about what?)
> >
> > I'll care when the American media stops pretending
> > that their First
> > Amendment liberties are somehow derived from
> > international law instead of the United
> > States Constitution's Bill of Rights.
> >
(What are you talking about? What media is pretending this?)
> >
> > In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave
> > marine roughing up an
> > Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I
> > don't care.
> >
(who is brave? Who is foolish?)
> >
> > When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi
> > prisoners who have been
> > humiliated in what amounts to a college-hazing
> > incident, rest assured that I
> > don't care.
> >
(Again, humane people care about harming others. What college did you go to that had comperable "hazing"?)
> >
> > When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head
> > when he is told not to
> > move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take
> > it to the bank that I
> > don't care.
> >
(was Abeer a terrorist? Or her little sister Hadeel? They got shot in the head. 14 yr old Abeer was raped first and mutilated afterwards. Do you care?)
> >
> > When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran
> > and a prayer mat, and
> > fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax
> > dollars, is complaining that his
> > holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely
> > believe in your heart of
> > hearts that I don't care.
> >
(don't believe everything O'Reilly says. Or Rush.)
> >
> > And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes
> > it's spelled "Koran" and
> > other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and ----
> > you guessed it - - I don't
> > care ! ! ! ! !
> >
(Amazing how intolerant you are and how uneducated you are proving yourself to be. Did you know that both these are translations from the Arabic alphabet?)
> >
> > If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to
> > all your e-mail friends.
> > Sooner or later, it'll get to the people responsible
> > for this ridiculous
> > behavior!
> >
(Vote Democratic)
> >
> > If you don't agree, then by all means hit the
> > delete button.
> >
(please do not send me any more spam written by others. If you truly want to have a discussion, use your own words.)
> >
> > Should you choose the latter, then please don't
> > complain when more
> > atrocities committed by radical Muslims happen here
> > in our great country.
(can I complain about the Occupation of Iraq when the families and friends of people who have been hurt unjustly in Iraq are upset and strike back in anger and pain?)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. Excellent rebuttal!

May I kindly add a few lines to your brilliant work?

Was
> > it or was it not started
> > by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on
> > September 11, 2001?

Well, many Muslims wonder how Islamic these fellows were. They were drinking alcohol and going to strip joints. And their last words were not the Shahada (profession of faith, which even Saddam was saying at the time of his death!) And let's see, by this argument we Americans had better be wary of Christians, because a Mr. McVeigh bombed a building in OK City.

Were people from all over the world, mostly
> > Americans, not brutally murdered
> > that day, in downtown Manhattan , across the Potomac
> > from our nation's
> > capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania ?


Yes. And some were Muslim. I believe also that at least one room used as a mosque was destroyed as well, which is against Islam.


I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the
> > Middle East start caring
> > about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which
> > is a crime in Saudi Arabia

I'll care about human rights in Saudi Arabia, where Sufism, my sect of Islam, is banned from holding religious meetings. But I won't allow the intolerance of one nation make me not care or at least investigate the Qur'an, for there are wise words there that show that Islam is not being practiced by the fanatics.


When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi
> > prisoners who have been
> > humiliated in what amounts to a college-hazing
> > incident, rest assured that I
> > don't care.

You should. This is against the Geneva Conventions, which the US signed onto. They are there to protect any US soldier from abuse if they are captured. By saying you don't care how we treat POWs, you are also saying you don't care how American POWs are to be treated.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran
> > and a prayer mat, and
> > fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax
> > dollars, is complaining that his
> > holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely
> > believe in your heart of
> > hearts that I don't care.

And I bet you'd be the first to raise holy hell if a Christian were mistreated. And I'm sure you realize the prisoners you refer to have never been given a trial, have never been able to face their accusers. I guess you won't care if the government decides to do the same to you.

[uppityperson]

10. Very good.

Good words added to a quick, rapidly becoming more annoyed, rebuttal.

If you don't care, why are you in the military? If you do not care about laws or humanity, why?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

11. Excellent additions!

I believe that every soldier is required to be at least aware of the Geneva Conventions, aren't they?

[Berry Cool]

14. And you might add that colleges have anti-hazing rules against torturing people

possibly to the point of death just so that they can join an organization. Some states even have laws against it. Oh, and then there's that little detail that these prisoners weren't even being voluntarily subjected to this treatment so they could join an organization, they were being tortured against their will. Not just "humiliated"--TORTURED. And we don't even know why some of them were in prison in the first place.

[Sweet Freedom]

15. This is more what I was looking for

I'd prefer to respond with reason, for this might be an opportunity to educate someone I care about.

[cynatnite]

12. Why respond to ignorant racist garbage?

Delete it before your computer gets contaminated. :puke:

[Sweet Freedom]

18. So I can

post it here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=284

so other Duers can use it to change or mind or at least get removed from the sender's list. :hi:

[cynatnite]

20. I went through the same shit with my sister...

she's on my blocked list because she wouldn't stop sending this kind of trash no matter how much I educated her, reasoned with her and asked her not to send me anymore.

Be prepared to get more despite all you do. For the most part, people who send crap like this thinks it sounds good and don't think any further than that.

[Sweet Freedom]

21. I went through this with my brother

he doesn't dare send me any e-mails because he knows I'll debunk them all. Sometimes it's worth the work.

[lvx35]

13. What a pile of crap.

I love the silent assumption that Islam = terrorism. IF the terrorists were from Alabama, would it be an issue that people who MIGHT be connected to them had their Bibles flushed down a toilet while bing questioned? Hell yes I care. Its not the TERRORISTS bibles...Its people being QUESTIONED who were detained without a TRIAL, and their holybooks.

[Sweet Freedom]

17. Hmm, interesting

The original rant of this message contains a reference to Clinton's activist judges allowing the pictures from Abu Ghraib to be shown. I'm surprised it's been removed from this message. You think an opportunity to blame Clinton couldn't be passed up.

[not_a_robot]

19. The answer is really simple.

Sociopaths don't care. That is their predominant personality trait. It's a result of being intentionally incapable of empathy and the compasison that is derived from it. The act of another harming, causing outrage, and other offenses toward the supposed loyalties or faction of a sociopath are nothing but a justification. Once they feel they can harm other with impunity then they will. They'll even become a righteous and dignified warrior for their holy quest of mutilation and murder, because the elation of being recognized as a hero or such feeds their narcissistic shell of a personality.

[Sweet Freedom]

22. Well, I'll probably reply to this today

so if any morning DUers have a response, chime in. :hi:

[Sweet Freedom]

23. I think I will use this as part of my reply

Don't Let Torture Become the Norm
By Phillip Butler
t r u t h o u t | Guest Contributor

Tuesday 30 January 2007

Many peace and justice organizations have been promoting and demonstrating lately for awareness of torture and related issues. I'm amazed and profoundly disappointed that this has apparently become necessary in our country.

I spent eight years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, from 1965 to 1973. During that time, I and more than 90 percent of my fellow POWs were repeatedly tortured for the extortion of information to be used for political propaganda and sometimes just for retribution. We were not recognized by Vietnam as POWs, but as criminals, because the Vietnamese had not signed the 1949 "Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War."

Later, in 1975, the United Nations created the "Convention Against Torture." Both conventions were ratified by Congress and became laws of our land. Unfortunately, Vietnam - along with numerous other countries who are still partially stuck in the 15th century - had institutionalized torture to punish and extract information from prisoners.

We received great moral and psychological strength during our incarceration from telling each other, "Our country is civilized and would never knowingly treat people like this."

We felt we had the moral high ground and took great pride in being American, above such barbarity. Besides, we all knew from experience that torture is useless, because under torture we told our tormentors whatever we thought they wanted to hear. Whenever possible we slipped in ridiculous statements like one I used in a torture-extracted "confession," that "only officers are allowed to use the swimming pool on the USS Midway." Another friend wrote in a "confession" that "my commanding officer, Dick Tracy, ordered me to bomb schools and hospitals." These are just two examples of the kind of culturally embedded nonsense people can expect to extract through torture.

We are hearing arguments that support coercion in various forms. One is that "unusual body positions" aren't really torture. Well, if you don't think so, try going out on your driveway or sidewalk, without clothes on, one of these cold nights. Kneel down on the concrete, holding your body erect with your arms extended above your head. In a very few minutes you will begin to feel real pain. Imagine several big tormentors ensuring with whips that you stay in that position. That's torture. .....(more)

The rest of the piece is at: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/013007M.shtml