Teachers are seeing kids coming to school unequipped to write

[LisaM]

This article is very disturbing on a number of levels, but mostly what I get from it is that people think handwriting is obsolete, and kids are coming to school with delayed fine and gross motor skills - and fine motor skills are essential to brain development.

This is what teaching to the test is giving us - a generation of children who aren't really allowed to be kids anymore.

Here's the part that jumped out at me:


~ Steve Sanders, director of the University of South Florida School of Physical Education and Exercise Science, also points to ramped-up expectations. “I’d say schools that push serious academics into kindergarten and pre-school — and emphasize sitting at desks and learning — are creating some of this problem,” he said.

But Anthony DiCarlo, the longtime principal of the William E. Cottle Elementary School in Tuckahoe, N.Y., a suburb north of Manhattan, said that many children are experiencing delays in their fine and gross motor skills.

“Almost all our kids come into kindergarten able to recite their letters and their numbers,” Mr. DiCarlo said. “Some can even read. But in the last five years, I’ve seen a dramatic increase in the number of kids who don’t have the strength in their hands to wield a scissors or do arts and crafts projects, which in turn prepares them for writing.” ~



http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/25/fashion/25Therapy.html?pagewanted=2&em

[no_hypocrisy]

1. In 1962 my kindergarten teacher was pushing for me to go into special ed b/c I could not use

the scissors or skip. My mother fought it tooth and nail. I couldn't use scissors b/c my mother didn't give me any to play with and the only time I was given them were in school. Then I couldn't skip b/c nobody ever showed me how it was done. The issue was finally decided by having me take an IQ test that said I was advanced.

I'm not certain if the fine and gross motor skills are the bright line the article claims they are. These skills can be developed rapidly with training.

[LisaM]

2. I don't think they are a bright line at all

and, I'm presuming you could hold a crayon and draw. You teacher sounds very unmotivated.

What bothers me is that it sounds as if people are going to grow up not knowing how to write. I think handwriting is a form of communication. And what about drawing? Everone's not going to be an artist, but I think art is an important early learning tool.

[immoderate]

3. These processes develop neuronal patterns in the brain.

It's the theory behind occupational therapy. Generally speaking, things you do make you smarter.

--imm

[femmocrat]

4. I agree to some extent.

I see kindergarteners who have never held a pair of scissors. One mother (who happens to be a kindergarten teacher!) told me she "was afraid" to let her son cut with scissors. I'm not so sure that they "don't have the strength" --- or that no one has ever took the time to teach them at home.

I see five-year olds who don't know their last names, cannot answer when their name is called, and don't know how to print their first names. IMO, this is a parent's job! One little boy did not know his given name, only his nickname (which of course I did not have).

By fifth grade, many still do not know their addresses. God forbid they would ever have to tell a police officer where they live.

Sounds like another jerk who wants to blame the teachers. Where are the parents/caregivers of these pre-schoolers? If they are in daycare, then why aren't the day cares or pre-schools teaching these basic skills? :shrug:

[anonymous171]

6. Why is it wrong to criticize teachers for failing to teach? nt

[femmocrat]

7. If you had read the OP, you would have noticed that ...

"kids are coming to school with delayed fine and gross motor skills - and fine motor skills are essential to brain development."

I was assuming that the writer was discussing pre-schoolers/kindergarten children.

It has nothing to do with teachers "failing to teach"! I placed the blame on whomever is responsible for teaching children a few basic skills before they enter kindergarten.

However, I do agree that there is too much emphasis on testing, even in primary school. There is way too much rote and drill, IMO.

[anonymous171]

10. Oops, I guess I misunderstood that part.

I thought it was just your average "kids are moving up in school but aren't learning anything!!!" piece. My bad :hi:

[femmocrat]

12. NP

:hi: back

I just get really defensive about people criticizing teachers for every shortcoming.

[LisaM]

24. This was not meant as a criticism to teachers

I think for the most part they are a brave group surmounting a lot of obstacles at the moment. In fact, it was unfortunate that the article quoted a teacher who didn't think writing was important, but I would guess most don't feel that way.

[Toucano]

5. Coloring books for all!

"STAY IN THE LINES!"

Problem fixed.

[Jamastiene]

82. That would certainly help. n/t

[WhiteTara]

8. lots of tv and computer time

but no imagination time that includes physical movement. Once I read a prediction that the human race would end up as a head and thumb. Yikes, sounds like we are on our way!

[Blue_Tires]

13. +1

sometimes I'm shocked now at how strange a pen feels in my hand when i'm writing for an extended period...

and I'm saying this as a former newspaper reporter, and a kid whose father made him copy stories in the newspaper to practice pennmanship...

[proudohioan]

15. No doubt! n/t

[northofdenali]

9. Interestingly, on just that note -

I was talking with a Borough commissioner yesterday; there's a job opening in his office that I'm hoping for. One of the absolute necessities of this job is neat handwriting (interestingly enough in this day and age) and I have it (Catholic Schools through 8th grade in the late 50's and early 60's - nuns with large rulers).

The last 4 candidates who applied for this job could print - somewhat - but could not write a cursive hand. All 4 were college grads, one in a master's program. All 4 much younger than I am.

It's a dying art, and the use of keyboards and other electronic devices by preschoolers contributes.

[LisaM]

11. I skipped a grade and didn't learn cursive in school

so my mother taught me at home, since I had to have that skill in third grade. I loved it, and practiced and practiced, coming up eventually with a script that owes as much to the Spencerian influence as it does to the Palmer method. Also, I am left-handed. People are constantly surprised to see a left-handed person with good handwriting, but it's possible and I am proof!

[XemaSab]

23. I never had good handwriting until I took Russian

Having to practice writing out a different set of letters REALLY helped with the legibility.

[izquierdista]

27. Most people's cursive writing is cursable

But if you really want to develop fine motor skills, children should be taught how to draw. Not just take out the crayons and scribble, but to really learn how to do contour drawing, sketching, use of negative space, one and two point perspective, shading, etc.

[LisaM]

29. I couldn't agree more

I don't think a lot of people understand that Picasso, for example, was extremely skilled at drawing. In fact, I love the pencil sketches they exhibit occasionally done by famous painters - they show the underlying structure of the painting.

[mzteris]

59. a lot of children who are excellent artists

still can't "write". It has to do with where language is stored in the brain.

There are different types of dysgraphia and "fine motor skills" is only one of the reasons. Some of it is motor planning, etc.

Kids who can't "write English" very well, do great in pictographic languages like Chinese, Japanese or Egyptian.

[northofdenali]

49. So is my husband, who was also taught by his mother -

"handedness" was a tough one back in the 50's. So many kids were forced to use only their right hands. My mom-in-law was a lefty from a long line of Oregon-pioneer lefty's and had fabulous penmanship. She taught my husband, and to this day his handwriting is beautiful.

[Toucano]

21. I am so curious

what position could possibly have this skill as a requirement?

If you're free to say, that is.

[KittyWampus]

36. My guess is personal secretary. Handwritten notes.

[Hekate]

54. Could be. Such a person could take very fast notes very unobtrusively in a public setting...

A laptop clicking away softly says "I'm taking down what you are saying."

Before bad carpal tunnel syndrome and a bit of arthritis set in, I was a demon at taking notes that were almost transcripts they were so complete. I really miss that skill -- nowadays I find writing more than a grocery list or a check uncomfortable.

Hekate

[northofdenali]

73. I kind of invented my own "shorthand" in college.

Pretty quick with it still, so I get stuck "recording" in meetings that aren't actually electronically recorded at various clubs. Unfortunately, then I have to transcribe because no one can read my "shorthand" (definitely NOT Gregg!) but me......... :P

[Hekate]

78. So did I; that's where I honed my skill in my teens. Then in grad school in my 40s I really ...

... went to town (60 pgs for each 3-day session), and at the end of those 3 years (MA/PhD) I was simply unable to keep on for the pain. (Mine wasn't Gregg either.)

Back in the days of quill pens there was an ailment called "scrivener's palsy" and I'll bet you dollars to holes in donuts that it was carpal tunnel syndrome.

Anyway up to that time I took notes for the county commission I was on when we interviewed department heads, just because that's how I remember stuff, and then it turned out we had to use my notes to write the reports because the secretary was, sadly, not up it. I always found that exceptionally irritating because for quite a few years I had been a sec myself and I knew old gals that could do shorthand like lightning, but whatever....

Hekate

[northofdenali]

51. It's in our local government's land management office.

Working with drafters, etc., a lot of "field" work vs. computer work. Hope I get it, it'd be a ball.

[Toucano]

83. I hope you get it, too!

Sounds great.

[Obamanaut]

14. Here is a really good thread by DUer SoCalDem on "Handwriting is History"

It has some really good responses, IMO. This thread was in late December.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7326734

Handwriting Is History

SoCalDem

[seabeyond]

16. my youngest has poor fine motor skill. he has been tested a number of times

he also has tics, doesnt chew and swallow well.

we have tried everything. so have the schools. about 5th grade we gave up. high iq. high marks.

oh... and reading a post above, almost no tv and at that age he couldnt do puter.

[LisaM]

25. There are always exceptions

I have a friend whose daughter had rheumatoid arthritis, and she will never write well either (though strangely she is an excellent musician and can finger her French Horn quite well).

[hayu_lol]

67. Lisa, Horn is fingered with the left hand...

perhaps the RA is worse in her right hand and not so bad in the left.

[northofdenali]

53. Of course there are exceptions!

I can't draw worth a crap, never have been able to. Not even the most vicious ruler-wielding nun could force that. Coloring was different, I was very good but try to draw a stick man? Ferget it! I didn't mean to imply that every child should have good penmanship - just that handwriting, particularly cursive, is dying out and giving way to texting/keyboarding.

[seabeyond]

60. ya. youngest didnt color (refused), use scissors, mold clay, paint, draw

we had all that stuff. my oldest was into it all. we were clueless why. then got in school and they couldnt do anything with him either. started testing him at four.

every couple years we would get another idea and test some more

i hear what you are saying

on the other hand, i talk to teachers today (6th grade) and they say he is not the only one with poor writing, so i do see evidence of it in the schools. surprised when look at some of it.

[surrealAmerican]

57. That sounds more like a physical issue than a developmental one.

What the article refers to is something else entirely. Those children simply haven't developed the skills due to lack of exposure.

You may want to ask your child's doctor about his manual skills.

[seabeyond]

61. he has had cat scans.... neurological tests, developmental tests, blood work

everyone knows there is something, jsut no one knows what....

as i say, we all gave up and let him excel where he can

[mzteris]

17. DYSGRAPHIA

is a writing disability.

[mzteris]

33. More on DYSGRAPHIA

A disability - you know, like Dyslexia?

Dysgraphia is a learning disability that affects writing abilities. It can manifest itself as difficulties with spelling, poor handwriting and trouble putting thoughts on paper. Because writing requires a complex set of motor and information processing skills, saying a student has dysgraphia is not sufficient. A student with disorders in written expression will benefit from specific accommodations in the learning environment, as well as additional practice learning the skills required to be an accomplished writer.
http://www.ldonline.org/article/12770?gclid=CL6c9-rpkKACFQsNDQod12P0dw

*****
Learning Disabilities Association of America
Signs and Symptoms

* May have illegible printing and cursive writing (despite appropriate time and attention given the task)
* Shows inconsistencies: mixtures of print and cursive, upper and lower case, or irregular sizes, shapes or slant of letters
* Has unfinished words or letters, omitted words
* Inconsistent spacing between words and letters
* Exhibits strange wrist, body or paper position
* Has difficulty pre-visualizing letter formation
* Copying or writing is slow or labored
* Shows poor spatial planning on paper
* Has cramped or unusual grip/may complain of sore hand
* Has great difficulty thinking and writing at the same time (taking notes, creative writing.)

http://www.ldanatl.org/aboutld/parents/ld_basics/dysgraphia.asp


****
NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF NEUROLOGICIAL DISORDERS AND STROKES:

What is Dysgraphia?

Dysgraphia is a neurological disorder characterized by writing disabilities. Specifically, the disorder causes a person's writing to be distorted or incorrect. In children, the disorder generally emerges when they are first introduced to writing. They make inappropriately sized and spaced letters, or write wrong or misspelled words, despite thorough instruction. Children with the disorder may have other learning disabilities; however, they usually have no social or other academic problems. Cases of dysgraphia in adults generally occur after some trauma. In addition to poor handwriting, dysgraphia is characterized by wrong or odd spelling, and production of words that are not correct (i.e., using "boy" for "child"). The cause of the disorder is unknown, but in adults, it is usually associated with damage to the parietal lobe of the brain.
Is there any treatment?

Treatment for dysgraphia varies and may include treatment for motor disorders to help control writing movements. Other treatments may address impaired memory or other neurological problems. Some physicians recommend that individuals with dysgraphia use computers to avoid the problems of handwriting.
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/dysgraphia/dysgraphia.htm


*****
DYSCALCULIA.org

Dysgraphia: Causes and Treatment

Learning disabilities can be caused by a variety of factors including genetic defects, injury, or illness. All of the disabilities have a physical counterpart, meaning they are caused by anomalies in physical structures or biochemistry. Students may be obviously physically disabled, emotionally disturbed, autistic, sensory impaired, or mentally impaired (Clark and Starr 1996, 301). These handicapping conditions present a multitude of challenges to the learning objectives of schools, individuals, and society.

In the words of Samuel T. Orton, "since any disorder in the normal acquisition of spoken or written language serves as a severe hindrance to academic advancement and often also lies at the root of serious emotional disturbances, the studies here recorded may prove of interest to teachers, parents, and physicians . . . (Orton 1937, 12)"

Dysgraphia, handwriting disability, may exist in isolation but more commonly occurs with other learning difficulties, like dyslexia, aphasia, dyscalculia, and attention deficit disorder with or without hyperactivity. Handwriting disabilities fall under the federal IDEA-Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act (amended 1997). Students with handwriting difficulties are eligible for special education services under R340.1713-SLD-Specific Learning Disability in Handwriting. These students are usually placed in categorical classroom programs for Specific Learning Disability, under R340.1747-SLD. Resource room programs at the Elementary level are covered by R340.1749a-ERR, and R340.1749b-SRR-at the Secondary Level.

Dysgraphic students qualify for the following ancillary and related services: By rule R340.1701b-IVT-Instructional Vocational Training; R340.1701(c): SSW-School Social Worker, PT- Physical Therapy, OT- Occupational Therapy, SP-School Psychologist; R340.1749- TC - Teacher Consultant, and LD - Learning Disabled.

Federal Law PL 94-142 guarantees a free and appropriate public education in the least restrictive environment, nondiscriminatory assessment, and individual education programs for children with disabilities between the ages of 3 and 21 (Clark and Starr 1996, 302). To the maximum extent possible, disabled students are to be educated in regular education classrooms, so that all students reap the academic and social benefits of typical education within a normal yet diverse peer group that represents the dynamic composition of the workplace and the cultural diversity experienced in adulthood.
http://www.dyscalculia.org/Edu563.html

*****
International Dyslexia Association

Dysgraphia:

* Is a processing problem.
* Causes writing fatigue.
* Interferes with communication of ideas in writing.
* Contributes to poor organization on the line and on the page.

Dysgraphia can be seen in:

* Letter inconsistencies.
* Mixture of upper/lower case letters or print/cursive letters.
* Irregular letter sizes and shapes.
* Unfinished letters.
* Struggle to use writing as a communications tool.

Dysgraphia is not:

* Laziness.
* Not trying.
* Not caring.
* Sloppy writing.
* General sloppiness.
* Careless writing.
* Visual-motor delay.

Dysgraphia is defined as a difficulty in automatically remembering and mastering the sequence of muscle motor movements needed in writing letters or numbers. This difficulty is out of harmony with the person's intelligence, regular teaching instruction, and (in most cases) the use of the pencil in non-learning tasks. It is neurologically based and exists in varying degrees, ranging from mild to moderate. It can be diagnosed, and it can be overcome if appropriate remedial strategies are taught well and conscientiously carried out. An adequate remedial program generally works if applied on a daily basis. In many situations, it is relatively easy to plan appropriate compensations to be used as needed.

Dysgraphia is an inefficiency which seldom exists in isolation without other symptoms of learning problems. While it may occasionally exist alone, it is most commonly related to learning problems involved within the sphere of written language. Difficulty in writing is often a major problem for students, especially as they progress into upper elementary and into secondary school. Rosa Hagan has stated, "Inefficiency in handwriting skills provides a barrier to learning, whereas efficiency in basic handwriting skills provides a tool for learning. Once this tool is established, it can help reinforce many other areas kids are having difficulties with."
http://www.dyslexia-ca.org/dysgraphiadefinition.html



Misunderstandings About Dysgraphia
Difficulties with writing often leads to major misunderstandings by teachers and parents, and consequently, to many frustrations for the student. This is especially true for the bright, linguistically fast student who encounters a major stumbling block when dealing with written expression due to the lack of smooth, efficient automaticity in letter and word formation. These students struggle to translate their thoughts and knowledge, which then denies their teachers the opportunity to understand what they know.

http://www.dyslexia-ca.org/dysgraphia.html

*******

For anyone interested in learning more about dysgraphia - if you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me by PM. There are groups and strategies that can help.


Also - I encourage everyone to read up more on Dyscalcula as well, another not-very-well-know, nor accommodated, LD.

[seabeyond]

35. uneven letters, messed up spacing. i cannot get son to space between the words

huge gaps within a word. a mess

but highly creative, why school so willing to allow him to use the computer because his writing is such a struggle, so slow, he ends up not putting his creativity on paper. but can on puter.

excellent with spelling, but his reading comprehension is so far ahead of his year in school. he is like sophmore, junior lever at 6th grade. tons of reading could be why spelling is good.

interesting

thanks

always looking for ...

[ctaylors6]

18. in my kids' preK and K, fine motor skills were evaluated on same level as math & reading

I agree that the fine motor and gross motor skills are very important. From preK playtime through now in their PE classes at our great public school, our kids gross motor skills are also evaluated (and not just the presidential physical fitness test, which I dreaded growing up and they still do). Even though they're much older we still have tons of crafts activities and other things that require fine motor skills.

I have to confess, however, that I think skipping cursive writing would not hurt kids at all if fine motor skills are otherwise addressed.

[XemaSab]

19. The girl next door is in 8th grade and she writes like a FIRST GRADER!

They're selling coffee for a fundraiser, and I got a look at her tally sheet.

She could barely write her own name, she had her teacher's name crossed out and rewritten, and she wrote "school" as "scschool!" :o

Her handwriting was totally uneven like she still had to think about how to make each letter. :o

[mzteris]

34. she probably did

have to "think about how to make each letter".

If her parents don't know - she probably has dysgraphia.

Where the written language center for an alphabetic system is stored in the brain is difficult to "access" for some people. I've posted some links on the subject in here, but I'd be more than happy to talk with you or them further. If you want, PM me and I'll send you my email address.

[tonysam]

20. Kids NEED to be taught cursive handwriting as well as print

because of the importance of fine motor skills.

Computers are not the be-all, end-all of life.

[Toucano]

22. I agree. n/t

[Rosa Luxemburg]

26. they write in cursive in our school from an early age

[tonysam]

30. Those schools are becoming more and more rare.

I had worked in private school before working in the public schools, and I taught kids cursive using the Palmer method preferred by the school.

I actually like D'nealian better.

[seabeyond]

31. they start cursive in third grade in this area. nt

[Rosa Luxemburg]

45. this is a public school

I remember the days when we wrote cursive with pens and real ink!

[tonysam]

47. I did, too.

But there are now high school teachers who don't write in cursive, and I had middle school students who couldn't read it. It's criminal, in my opinion.

[tonysam]

28. ANY teacher who discounts the importance of handwriting instruction

or doesn't even know how to teach it has NO business teaching kids. Period.

Occupational therapists should NOT be the ones teaching kids how to write or use fine motor skills instruction; the latter should be ONLY for the kids who really need it from an OT (CP kids, etc.).

[Trillo]

32. Could there be a medical mystery in play?

I read some non-human but mammalian research years ago that claimed a nutritionally deficient diet took 4 generations to fully manifest as still birth. Perhaps something similar is happening here. Might it intersect with soaring healthcare costs?

RE: delayed neurological development.

[walldude]

37. I call bullshit!

Kids don't have the strength in their hands to wield scissors? You ever try to take a video game controller away from a kid in the throes of gaming? Somehow I don't believe this "strength and motor skills" crap for a second.

[seabeyond]

38. doesnt make sense to me. what would other kids of generations be doing different

and little little kids arent interested in puter that much. low attention span

[WhiteTara]

42. they spend time in front of the tv and games

and don't have jacks, pick up sticks, tinker toys, lincoln logs, coloring books as their main source of entertainment.

[seabeyond]

44. not the way it worked or works in our house. and son still cant write.

not gonna disagree with you on this theory either because i know a lot of kids and especially little spend a lot fo time in front of tv. and other stuff not encouraged

but certainly not in all cases, and wouldnt want to readily dismiss either.

tv has been around a lot of generations. they are saying last five years.

[mzteris]

63. more than five years

but becoming more "frequent".

Along with the increase in other disorders - NVLD, Aspie, CAPD, PDD, PDD-NOS, or other ""spectrum" related.


Non-verbal Learning Disorder
Asperger's Syndrome
Central Auditory Processing Disorder
Pervasive Development Disorder
Pervasive Development Disorder - Not otherwise specified
Spectrum - Autism spectrum.

[WhiteTara]

71. hmm. Is it a nutritional factor?

Is there an epidemic of children who don't have motor skills? Without trying to be rude, would you tell me about your son?

[seabeyond]

75. the blood tests were to rule out allergies ect...

the kids had such a list of things from time of birth. couldn't suckle well, couldn't swallow well. could never eat chunkie baby food. everything in small bites, to this day with meat and he is 12. from 1-4 he would regularly choke on food and i would hold hand out to throw it away.

he would get odd skin rashes and muscle problems young, but later we found out about tics that move thru out him so thinking that is it.

he isn't a protein eater. no particular food for him. tends to sweets and carbohydrates, but we eat healthy and balanced so he has to eat the veggies. fruit comes in juices, wont eat fruit much. barely eats meats....

could never figure out how to ride a bike. couldn't get mind to tell his legs to break. throwing and basketball real challenge, but getting better.

as i said, we have all the stuff, crayons, clay, play do, paint, finger paint, and he didn't do any of that. we have gone to violen and piano and guitar to help him.

third grade assured she could teach any kids cursive. she was long time enthused teacher. after a couple months she told him he could go back to printing. she was sure the cursive would be easier for him than printing. that is when we special tagged him to start using computers for storytelling, journal and stuff.

walked him into an excellent middle school 5-8th. oldest son had gone thru school and they knew me well. so when they had youngest, they worked with him, accept it is part of who he is.... no special anything with him, just acceptance and he does well, just cant write.

his tics get bad at times, but i hear a lot of kids out grow that later teens.

i read on tourette (sp) syndrome, and heard some similarities. no cursing. kids tend to grow out of that.

there were other things too, it all seemed connected, but a decade later and letting it go... well, cant remember

[WhiteTara]

87. wow Seabeyond, it sounds like

you and your child have been given a special challenge. I wish you well with it.

[seabeyond]

88. really

now that we just accept it as what it is and let it go, there arent issue.

it was tryng to find some answers to help find solutions that was frustrating.

every once in a while i read something that i find might pertain....

[mzteris]

89. tourettes doesn't

necessarily mean "cursing" - it manifests itself in different ways.

Have you checked out "sensory integration disorder"?

It really sounds like he's a "spectrum" kid. There are some "groups" with special kids with a very wide range of issues. It's kinda hard to wade through the format, but once you get used to it and stay on it a while, it starts to make sense. Sooner or later you'll see another kid "like yours" - or you can post up your questions/issues and wait for the "my kid does that and here's what we do" responses... There's also a dysgraphia group for more info on that, but it sounds like you've done pretty much everything already - though admittedly I haven't been on there for a few years now since we just accepted that there wasn't much more we *could* do.

There are neurological issues that might not necessarily show up on an MRI, CAT, etc... it's a matter of wiring and I don't think that shows. Unless they did one of those that they can track the "lit up areas" of the brain as he accesses different pieces of information.

At any rate, if you're interested in these loops/groups - PM me and I'll give you the links.

[mzteris]

39. yeah - they're just FAKING!

Remember when people thought dyslexia was "bullshit"?

Read some of my links upthread about DYSGRAPHIA. It is a learning disability that needs to be accommodated.

[seabeyond]

40. i do wonder though if it is not about something else.

having watched son for so long. i mean i believe the weaker. but i dont know if it is something going on and that is what i am curious about. instead of they are watching tv, computer, whatever cause it.

[walldude]

43. Oh for fucks sakes... I never said they were faking I'm saying

either the teachers or the reports are full of shit or the parents are the worst in history. If there is one thing I think kids of the new generation have it's hand strength and motor skills. With the level of computers, cell phones, video games, and toys which require fine motor skills, (ever try to dress a Barbie or build a big Lego set)? Most kids have incredible hand strength and coordination. To act like there is some kind of epidemic of kids with no motor skills is fucking bullshit.

God this place deserves it's current reputation.

[tonysam]

46. Not the same thing as learning cursive handwriting. Not the same thing at all. n/t

[mzteris]

55. did you read any of the links?

There are a number of different reasons a person can have difficulty with writing. There are typically "three types" of dysgraphia - or combinations of them. . . Dyslexic Dysgraphia, motor-related, or spatial-related.

Dysgraphia Classification Systems

Dysgraphia is often classified as either specific or non-specific (Deuel, 1994). Specific dysgraphia results from spelling disabilities, motor coordination problems, and language disabilities such as aphasia. The components of motor dysgraphia are sometimes related to anatomical problems, executive dysfunction, motor planning deficits, and visual-spatial perception problems.

Non-specific dysgraphia may result from mental retardation, psychosocial deprivation, or poor school attendance. Some children do not develop adequate handwriting skills because they have not received enough direct instruction in written language.

Deuel (1994) has divided dysgraphia into three subtypes: (**or a combination of them...)

* Dyslexic dysgraphia

* Dysgraphia due to motor clumsiness

* Dysgraphia due to a defect in the understanding of space

In dyslexic dysgraphia, spontaneously written text is poorly legible and spelling is severely abnormal. Copying of written text is relatively preserved, however, and finger-tapping speed on a neuropsychological battery is generally normal.

Dysgraphia due to motor clumsiness is associated with poorly legible spontaneously written text, preserved spelling, and poorly legible copying of written text. Finger tapping speed in such cases is generally abnormal.

Dysgraphia due to a defect in understanding of space is associated with poorly legible spontaneously written text, preserved spelling, poorly legible copying of written text, and normal finger tapping speed.

http://www.nldline.com/

***
Poor muscle tone is one of them. Not only are the fingers/hand involved in writing, but the arm and the shoulder as well. Poor core strength can be an issue.
There's also something called "crossing the mid-line" - kids who can't do this typically have problems.

http://www.education.com/magazine/column/entry/Reading_Writing_Crossing_Midline/
http://www.developmentaldelay.net/page.cfm/263

Here's the thing - some kids with dysgraphia have marvelous fine motor skills - many times they are very very good artists. This is because where the written language is stored in the brain is difficult to access. Some children can "write very well" VERY slowly - so people think they're rushing or faking or something. But they're not really WRITING when they do that - they're DRAWING the letters. Another oddity - many of these kids can write in a foreign language that's "symbol/picture based" better than they can in a alphabetic type system (Chinese, Kanji, Egyptian, etc...) because where those are stored in the brain are different from where "letters" are stored.


Poor visual sequential memory, poor working memory, poor visual memory - these can also be a factor.


Research to date has shown orthographic coding in working memory is related to handwriting.
Orthographic coding refers to the ability to store unfamiliar written words in working memory while the letters in the word are analyzed during word learning or the ability to create permanent memory of written words linked to their pronunciation and meaning. Children with dysgraphia do not have primary developmental motor disorder, another cause of poor handwriting, but they may have difficulty planning sequential finger movements such as the touching of the thumb to successive fingers on the same hand.
http://wrightslaw.com/info/read.dysgraphia.facts.htm

*****

Multiple Brain Mechanisms

Writing represents a highly complex neurodevelopmental process, which involves multiple brain mechanisms. It requires the simultaneous and sequential integration of attention, multiple information sources, memory, motor skill, language, and higher cognition. Gross and fine-motor coordination, motor memory, and "kinetic melody", a term coined by Luria, requires balancing, flexing, and contracting movements as well as simultaneously stimulating some muscle groups while inhibiting other muscle groups.

In order to self-monitor writing output, visual, proprio-kinesthetic, automatic motor memory, and revisualization feedback mechanisms must be engaged.

* Visual feedback mechanisms include eye-hand coordination and visual-fine motor integration.

* Proprio-kinesthetic feedback mechanisms include awareness of the movement and location of the fingers in space, internal monitoring of rhythm and rate, and pencil grip.

* Motor memory feedback mechanisms include motor plans or engrams, visual-fine motor coordination to produce symbols, sequentialization, speed, and accuracy.

* Revisualization feedback mechanisms include visual memory for symbols, whole word memory, visual attention to detail, and spelling.

http://www.nldline.com/
*************


This is a just brief overview, the subject is quite complex and sometimes it's difficult to tease out what exactly - why - is the underlying issue.

Oh - yeah - DYSPRAXIA : Developmental Dyspraxia (also known as Developmental Co-ordination Disorder, and the Clumsy Child Syndrome) is a neurologically based disorder of the processes involved in praxis or the planning of movement to achieve a predetermined idea or purpose, which may affect the acquisition of new skills and the execution of those already learned. More specifically, it is a disorder of praxis, or the process of ideation (forming an idea of using a known movement to achieve a planned purpose), motor planning (planning the action needed to achieve the idea), and execution (carrying out the planned movement).

Dyspraxia may affect any or all areas of development - physical, intellectual, emotional, social, language, and sensory - and may impair the normal process of learning, thus is a learning difficulty. It is not a unitary disorder (like measles or chicken pox, where all those affected share a common set of symptoms), and affects each person in different ways at different ages and stages of development, and to different degrees. It is inconsistent, in that it may affect the child one day but not the next - as if sometimes information is 'put away in the wrong drawer' - and it may affect children in different ways at different ages and developmental stages.

It is a hidden handicap as, under normal circumstances, children with Dyspraxia may appear no different from their peers, until new skills are tried or known ones taken out of context, when difficulties may become apparent. In many affected children, Dyspraxia occurs with or as part of other neurological conditions so that defining common symptoms may be confusing. Therefore a diagnosis, naming the disorder, is often very difficult, and sometimes the closest may be 'shows some Dyspraxic tendencies'. http://www.dyspraxiausa.org/index.php/The-Facts-on-Dyspraxia.html


******

Problem that is All in the Mind
Clumsiness is a symptom - as is poor handwriting - yet dyspraxia often remains undiagnosed and untreated
by Barbara Lantin

". . . Dyspraxia - also called developmental co-ordination disorder - affects up to ten per cent, two per cent severely. As with dyslexia, 80 percent of those affected are boys. The causes are unclear, though it is thought to be an immaturity in neuron development in the brain. The result is that messages are not transmitted in the brain in the normal way.

While awareness of the condition is increasing, the variety of symptoms and the fact that bright children quickly learn to mask their difficulties means that many cases still go undiagnosed. With treatment -0 most commonly physiotherapy and occupational therapy - great strides can be made. Without it, life can be very difficult for sufferers."
http://www.nldline.com/newpage41.htm

[RaleighNCDUer]

48. I doubt that it is not having the strength, but a matter of not having the

coordination. We use scissors easily, but to a child who has never used them before I expect they are somewhat baffling. What other utensil do they ever use when they have to put fingers and thumb in holes, move those fingers and thumb in opposite directions at the same time while pushing forward with the object and keeping it perpendicular to another object they hold in their other hand? Scissors are actually quite complex and unlike almost anything else they have ever held.

Strength is negligible, unless you expect them to cut reams of paper for hours on end, but motor skills are very important in handling scissors.



Especially when running.

[upi402]

41. Less cutting pics and pasting, more training and practice

I'm always amazed at the wasted time spent encouraging kids to learn. Forget it. "This is what you will learn, you will learn it now." Then practice and repeat until it's muscle memory.

Cutting and pasting prepares kids to be tailors and seamstresses god dammit!

[yowzayowzayowza]

50. Generation Joystick.

Are they ever in for a rude awakening.

[Romulox]

52. OP sounds fishy: 1) texting/games don't involve "fine motor skills"?

2) when I was young, a huge portion of my kindergarten and first grade class were spent on the art of writing--nobody expected me to print anything more than my name when I arrived in Kindergarten. :hi:

[Hekate]

56. Texting/games involve hitting keys, not forming small letters with a pencil, if I'm not mistaken

As someone with carpal tunnel that bothers me when I write, I am well aware of how different the two physical motions are, and how differently they feel inside my head.

Hekate

[Romulox]

65. You are (somewhat) mistaken. Games involve far more than "hitting keys"

For example, most game systems have dual analog control sticks which take a great deal of "fine motor skills" to manipulate (go ahead--give it a try!)

And at any rate, the OP claimed that the development of "fine motor skills" is critical for mental development. My point is that it is absurd to insist that children don't learn such "fine motor skills" from other endeavors.

[Hekate]

69. TY for the info. Still, there would be different muscles, nerves, and neurons involved...

... in these activities. Like -- tennis and golf? golf and jogging?

Hekate

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. We have kids every year come into kindergarten who don't know their name

Mom has called him Junior and he doesn't realize his name is Robert.

That's a much bigger concern to me than a kid who has trouble writing.

[seabeyond]

64. oh no. that is sad. nt

[femmocrat]

80. So true!

Again, this is a parent's responsibility. A five-year old should know his or her first and last names and should at least be able to print his/her first name. We are into the third nine week term and I have a few who still cannot print their first names.

Why do some of them print backwards? I can usually figure it out, but it is interesting to see that! And I love the ones who try to write "cursive" before they are taught it. Some children are so eager to learn this skill! :)

[AwakeAtLast]

86. My daughter has been doing that pretend cursive thing since she was 3

She is now eight and still has no use for printing. No one will let her write in cursive because she's still in second grade and she's not supposed to use cursive until third.

The tears.....oh, the tears...... x(

[AwakeAtLast]

85. Yup

We had to call one kid "Choo-choo" because that's the name he recognized. I wish I was kidding.... :yoiks:

[LisaM]

62. I appreciate the thoughtful responses

I was not aware of dysgraphia, though of course many people are challenged in many ways. And computers can be an equalizer for that type of thing - one of their more benign uses, IMO.

What bothers me is that people would hire occupational therapists to get their kid up to speed. Can't you pull out a jar of Play-Do, or get some crayons, and sit and do this stuff with your own kid? Little kids love to draw and paint, and even a dysgraphic kid can enjoy finger paiting or modelling or other exercises that teach the brain and the hands to relate to each other.

[mzteris]

66. true - these things can help

and for some kids that really IS the problem and all it would take.

But for those kids whose problem rises to the level of being a disability - then OT and PT are very helpful. Even though, oftimes, the therapy doesn't do a whole hell of a lot to CORRECT the dysgraphia - but it certainly helps a kid to understand that they're NOT "stupid", "lazy", "dumb", "defiant", "slow", "careless", or "sloppy"... those labels can significantly impair a kid for life, ya know?

I did "OT" every day with my kid from the time he was about three years old. We played with playdough, beads, picked up beads with TWEEZERS and dropped them into a small necked bottle (we'd progressed from picking up corks with fingers, to pinchers (cookstyle), to tweezers and beads), cutting and pasting, stringing beads, using CLAY and polymer clay after playdough because it's harder to manipulate - hiding little beads/trinkets in the clay for him to remove. At seven he was diagnosed with Dysgraphia, having trouble crossing-the-midline, and poor core body muscle tone. We started more LARGE gross-motor training as well. Wheelbarrow walking, painting on an easel. Sidewalk chalk. Water painting on the wall. I enrolled him in gymnastics and swimming, kung fu, basketball, baseball, soccer, to help his motor skills. (He never did get basketball down.)

He was very active. Never watched much tv (discovery channel, The Learning Channel, History Channel, . . . ) and he COULDN'T play video games. Ever. He tried when he was about five at the neighbors house and would get migraines from the 'flicker rate'. He did like to play "computer games" - but only if he could learn something - mathblaster, readerrabbit - those types - nothing with a joystick. He played outside ALL the time. Ran. Climbed trees. Biked. Skateboard. Soccer. Chase. If he had to stay in, heck - he and his little brother spent one nasty week "climbing MT Everest" - on my stairs - using bathrobe ties for ropes, slippers for crampons, backpacks with their "lunch" packed, blankets for sleeping bags, and miniature hockey sticks for ice picks. They ate and "slept" on the stairs. The best part were the avalanches! :rofl:


He was a very good speller - aurally - from the time he learned to read - which was four. Heck - he could spell words backwards and "inside out" (don't ask!) out loud. But ask him to WRITE down those words - and - eh - hell, he might misspell his own name! Punctuation, capitalization, spacing - all a crap shoot, though he could recite just about "every rule" there was and could quickly point in errors in examples shown to him. He'd leave out letters and whole words. His hand just could not keep up with his head.

The retrieval process and his working memory seemed to be the problem. We worked a lot on visual sequential memory, he could recite back letters, numbers, symbols - backwards and forwards up to seven digits (he was about 8-9 then), but he couldn't WRITE them back correctly after about three or four.

His handwriting still looks like a kindergardner (almost) and he's 16. He still has problem with written expression. Even on the computer getting his thoughts "organized" is difficult. His teachers said his ideas and theories are - amazing, but getting them down on paper in such a way that the average person can follow is a challenge.

He writes Chinese better than English. He likes learning foreign languages on his own in his spare time (Russian, Greek, etc). He's brilliant and is planning to be a professional ballet dancer. He helps teach his chemistry class and tutors kids in Algebra. He's on the Student Council and is working with some guy from the School board to implement "open-source" learning in the other highschools (he attends the 'alternative school' here in town) and some type of 'open-source' computer program or something. Heck - he surpassed me long ago!

[hayu_lol]

68. The Palmer method was taught first, in pencil, then using...

nib holders with those horrible steel nibs(frequently poked holes in paper). Part of the problem with cursive today is the horrible cheap ball point pens. A good fountain pen was a joy to use.

For years now, I've used only Pentel 'rolling writers' which adapt to the individual's writing style. They are the closest to a fountain pen available.

[mzteris]

72. I think we bought every type

of pen, and before that - pencil grip - known to man!

:rofl:

My son does prefer those "rolling writer" types, especially if they have a "squishy" barrel to grip.

[LisaM]

79. Rolling writers (for that matter fountain pens)

are not that great for lefties. The ink smears.

[seabeyond]

74. interesting, interesting

i am glad you took the time to write all this. i see so many similiarities and then not...

how was he on memorization in multiplications? any issue there.

though math isnt sons strong point, he still gets the good grades, thinks things thru adn in pre AP class, so moving fast and algebra in 6th grade, but i dont know if he yet has multiplication memorized. we work on it and then it goes away, never sticks around

[mzteris]

76. helz no! He can't say his "tables" to this day!

But he did teach himself multiplication when he was four.

Look up dyscalcula - also spelled dyscalculia - I think I have a link in another post. wait - it's dyscalculia.org... plus look at other sources like LDonline . . .


Forget the memorization. If he understands the "concept" that is. That's important - but I suspect he does. Just can't get the memory part right. Give him a calculator and be done with it. More on that later.

[seabeyond]

77. i will. thanks. that is so interesting. all the stuff from real younger years i have forgotten

but so much of your experience is sounding familiar. i have found the multiplication such an odd thing for this kid cause he like "feels" math and is good.

thanks....

[Odin2005]

70. when I was 4 (1990) my doc told my mom that video games would help my fine motor skills.

If a doctor said that today he would be crucified.

[City of Mills]

81. Even when I did write cursive

It ended up all smeared and looking like crap, being left-handed and all :evilgrin:

[Lyric]

84. Cursive handwriting is obsolete in today's world

and anything more than basic print handwriting will be too, eventually. The day is coming (sooner than you think) when we will compose our thoughts by thinking words and/or pictures rather than typing, drawing, or writing them. The technology already exists in its most basic form; we just need to perfect it. When that time comes, handwriting will no longer be necessary. Imagine a world where your 9-month-old who can't even speak clearly yet can "think" pictures onto a screen to let you know what she wants and needs. Amazing, isn't it? I'm eagerly anticipating a world like that.

I understand that handwriting is a cherished tradition, but so was living in a hut to our ancestors--and yet, here we are in our comfy, decidedly un-hutlike homes. So long as the basic ability to print exists (just in case of emergency power outage or something similar) then I think the loss of anything more than basic handwriting won't be a big deal.