If passing healthcare is really "political suicide"...

[Blue State Bandit]

...then why ain't the republicans yelling "jump"?

It's a simple question. If, as the republicans keep saying, the American people don't want this "government takeover of the healthcare industry", then why do they keep trying to stop us from pulling the trigger?

I thought political suicide meant what it sounds like? With mid-term elections only months away, wouldn't the American people retaliate in November?

Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn) calls is "a political kamikaze mission". Funny, huh?

They call us socialists, communists, anti-Christs, and what not. They clearly want us to lose. So why stop us from "sealing our own fates"?

Someone should call them on their BS.

If they really think passing healthcare is a suicide mission, and that they can win by promising to repeal any healthcare legislation that we pass, we should "give them what they want". We should pass a strong Public Option through reconciliation and dare them to repeal it.

F#@$ing Clown Shoes!

[KharmaTrain]

1. For Them It IS Suicide

It mean loss of millions in campaign and PAC donations from the insurance lobby should that industry lose its monopoly in playing god with health care. To their real benefactors, the corporates, government competition or regulation means the loss of billions that mean more than the health or welfare of the country on the whole.

It's using the scare tactics of "socialism" and "government control" that is part of their long time game of trying to convince people that "government is the problem"...using simple talking points that we hear out of the teabaggers that has no basis in any true financial philosophy except for the very rich who want a free ride on the backs of the middle class and the poor. And they've spent a lot of time and money on those memes...

[Blue State Bandit]

3. Then why not call them on it?

Let them run on repeal. the teabaggers will froth at the mouth, but when you look at the numbers, they don't like the bill as it stands. But as soon as we bring back the PO, they will be hog-tied to the repeal and indie's will tare them a new one.

[KharmaTrain]

7. Right Now They're Winning

Each day that goes by where a healthcare...or should I say, insurance reform bill isn't passed, they consider it a victory. Actually it's not about this issue but about completely shutting down the government and make it appear Obama is doing nothing...which we see some here picking up on that meme.

The teabaggers are bit players in the electoral scheme of things and we'll see that in the near future. Fuck 'em. They'll be more a problem for the GOOP than the Democrats. We're already seeing the GOOP leadership try to reign in the baggers cause they see some serious clashes coming up in the primaries.

The Democrats problem is a corporate media bought and paid for by the insurance and other medical related industries. Nancy Pelosi has called the GOOPers on their lies, but who gets villanized instead.

Be assured, if a bill passes, there will be a campaign to repeal. It may have no real substance, but it will be a campaign issue. Remember, the GOOP are opportunists...they have no care for facts and even if they're called out on their lies, they'll just make up new ones....and the corporate media will dutifly report them.

[jaxx]

2. They know darn well they can't take it away after it's passed.

Just like they scream about Social Security and Medicare, when push comes to shove they don't do it because the people would destroy them.

[doc03]

5. According to the Cal Thomas editorial Sunday

the Republicans will likely take over the Congress this year and the Presidency in 2012. He thinks it will be a winner for them if they run on appealing the HCR bill.

[Blue State Bandit]

6. Include the PO and let them try.

[lurknomore]

15. Who is Cal Thomas

and should I care?

[doc03]

4. They started ads here this morning telling us

to call our Congressman and tell him not to vote on the HCR bill. They say tell him you oppose death panels, medical rationing and cutting $500 billion from Medicare.

[kenny blankenship]

8. If the Democrats are going to pass something by extraordinary procedures

it had better be either a small detail the people don't care much about, or it had better be a huge benefit to the vast majority of the people, which they can see as a benefit easily (it must be a benefit not just in your lofty estimation) and it had better be something they can feel as a benefit SOON.

This insurance giveaway bullshit isn't it.

And don't give me whiny excuses about how well the Republicans passed this this and this by reconciliation. Democrats are not Republicans - if the Republicans used reconciliation for something major-something hotly opposed by the people, as Obaucus Health Care "Reform" is- the wussy Democrats would just let the Republicans off the hook. I didn't hear one damn word from Democrats about the Bush taxcuts passing by extraordinary procedure - not until this "reform" debate. Either it was not opposed by the people very much or the Democrats failed to capitalize on an opportunity to attack the Republicans (what a surprise).

Changing the way America does healthcare is a Big Deal, (although in this case it's not a good deal) and changing something so large by reconciliation is an opportunity for Republicans to attack us. They are smartly framing the issue of "extraordinary measures" and rule bending in advance, by playing up the idea that we are "crossing a line" in using a what's supposed to be a limited budgetary procedure to pass major legislation. Then when we go ahead and cross the line, they will denounce us to the people as wild-eyed leftist revolutionaries. How I wish there was an ounce of substance to their charges, but sadly the Democrats are pig-eyed rightwing crony capitalists instead.

[Blue State Bandit]

10. Then pass a PO on recon!

As Dr. Dean just said, the original OP is out, but they can do one based in an expansion of Medicare.

So what is the problem with this idea?

[kenny blankenship]

23. Great -now just get the Republican controlled Senate to approve it.

Expansion of Medicare is a fine idea. It's not comprehensive health care reform unless you mean to expand Medicare availability to everyone. But it's a fine idea by itself. Sadly, a majority of Senators-that is, all the Republicans in the Senate plus all the Republicans in our party - are paid to kill fine ideas whenever they come along.

I'm just telling you why Republicans aren't yelling "jump". Their tactics require them to make a big deal of the unusual way Democrats are proposing to change health insurance, before we do it. Then when we do it, afterward they get to say SEE! SEE, WE TOLD YOU THE DEMOCRATS WERE LAW BREAKING RADICALS OUT TO CONFISCATE YOUR WEALTH!11! THEY HAD TO BREAK THE RULES TO DO THIS!11 THEY'RE TAKING OVER, AND WON'T LET RULES OR LAWS GET IN THEIR WAY!1!1
You have to draw a line in advance and define crossing it as out of bounds to get the maximum rhetorical mileage from "fouls" and "abuses" from the other side. The fact that Democrats have twisted or misused the Senate rulebook to get a major and controversial act passed, and the Republicans made a big stink about it, "warning the public" about it in advance, can then be used as "confirmation" of their views of the legislation itself.

They know how to work it, and given a weak hand to play, they're playing it for all it's worth. There are some big risks in their strategy, but on the other hand, they can't join Democrats in saying "something must be done about health care" without repudiating their defining belief that the free market without government intervention by definition always delivers the best possible result overall.

[Blue State Bandit]

25. We have 30 supporting a PO so far.

With Lincoln getting primaried, the heat will be on the conservadems to follow suit to avoid losing a primary fight.

Then we force a Medicare PO thru recon, and dare the Repubs to run on repealing it.

Even if they take the congress in November, they will be hog-tied. If they kill the PO, they will lose everything. But more than likely, they will be forced by their base to run on repeal, and lose the indie vote.

Either way, we win.

[leveymg]

9. They know that HCR -- WITH MANDATES & WITHOUT PO -- is political suicide.

What they want is the Democrats to pass a Bill everyone hates. That's a WIN-WIN outcome for the GOP.

[Blue State Bandit]

14. It's our job then, to push harder for a PO Recon Bill...

and provoke the republicans to run on a repeal threat. They are already on the record calling the PO a socialist plot. Make them threaten opposition to that. They will be unable to back down from their repeal position, even with a Medicare PO Bill. The TeaBaggers would eat them alive.

I promise, if we don't, you can kiss this country goodbye. Because if they win in November, healthcare will be the least of our worries.

[flyarm]

19. +1000!! eom

[Romulox]

22. Actually win-win-WIN since it helps multinational corporations at the expense of the people

which is something that Republicans (and "centrist" Dems) reflexively applaud.

[annabanana]

11. Why ain't they yelling "JUMP" indeed....

This is a most telling point

[Blue State Bandit]

13. Thank you.

Finally, someone sees my point.

[Blue State Bandit]

12. So, not a single rec for standing up?

Wow.

So nobody her wants healthcare? Nobody's willing to fight for it?

I hate this "I'll write a letter" bullshit here. Why aren't we shutting shit down.

Oh, that's right, were too busy shutting down ideas that require making the hard choices.

I will say this again so that everyone here will understand me.

INDEPENDENTS DON'T VOTE FOR PUSSIES!!!!!

[NM_hemilover]

18. The problem is not that,

"independents don't vote for pussies", the problem is that INDEPENDENTS ALREADY VOTED FOR PUSSIES !

The powder has been kept so dry for so long, by so many, that nobody bothered to check to see who might have any lead balls left to shoot. Now that the time has come (and gone) to pull the trigger, capping blanks isn't really all that inspiring. I used to love the expression "keeping our powder dry", it gave the illusion that somebody had a plan. I see little reason to be inspired by the leadership of Harry Reid, nor the political moxy of President Obama regarding healthcare reform.

No I did not anticipate that all our ills would be solved in one year, I am realistic about the situation the country is in, and how long it will take to course correct. But there is no excuse for not having passed health care reform already, and whatever excuse I hear just makes it even more disappointing.

Whatever health care package is ultimately delivered, it will never be,... as it should have and could have been. It was turned into a voting re-election issue not health care, it's sad and disappointing, not that Republicans caused it,......but that the pussies that we elected, and RE-ELECTED went along with it instead of changing it.

[subterranean]

16. Passing a reform bill will help in at least one way:

After the bill is signed, the Democrats will finally be able to tell the public exactly what's in it and how it will help them -- something that's been difficult up to now because the details keep changing and no one has been able to say for sure what will or won't be in the final bill.

Of course, it will help more if the final bill isn't just a giant giveaway to Big Insurance and Big Pharma.

[NM_hemilover]

20. I think this is exactly the problem,

The details keep changing because the Democrats have been allowing the Republicans to change them.
The deatils can't be told to the public, because the Republicans haven't decided what to allow the Democrats to have.

"of course. it will help more if the final bill isn't just a giant give-a-way to Big Insurance and Big Pharma" ? What would help even more is if Democrats would lead with the majorities they have, and not just accept what the Republicans will allow them to pass.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

17. I don't get the "political suicide" argument OR the "insurance industry boondoggle" arguments either

NOT passing anything- at this point- WOULD be "political suicide" for the Democratic Party and President Obama IMHO because it has been one of the major domestic initiatives during this Congress and HCR going down to defeat will only strengthen the Republican's electoral prospects and destroy morale among Democratic Party members if we can't show that we can get something significant like this done.

How we get it done at this point doesn't really matter (President Obama is right- nobody will care after it's passed and some of the alternative ways that are being discussed are NOT illegal, unconstitutional, or even "radical" like the Republicans are trying to make them out to be) and, while the final product might not be as "pretty" as a lot of us would've liked the body of reforms in the legislation WILL be a MAJOR step forward in this country towards cementing the idea/concept that EVERYBODY should be able to afford access to health care in this country.

As for the "insurance industry boondoggle" argument, yes, we'll be *giving* money to the insurance industry but only so that they can cover more people AND they're going to have to produce results (i.e. more people covered, affordable premiums) like never before and, well, if they prove unable/unwilling to do the job they're being paid to do, then government will have to *reluctantly* step in more- either in terms of increased regulation or coverage (i.e. public option, expanded Medicaid, single-payer). So, ultimately, whatever happens in the end, the final result should be better coverage at more affordable prices.

It is for these reasons (and others) that Republicans aren't simply letting HCR "sail through". It will be NO "victory" for them or the insurance industries if HCR passes in any form.

[Romulox]

21. Because the Republicans WANT mandatory, for-profit insurance TOO.

That's how "triangulation" works.

[leftstreet]

27. +1

[Blue State Bandit]

29. Know what else works?

Asking the question over and over and over again.

[prolesunited]

24. If they are warning us not to do it

we will probably benefit from it. Since when does the GOP look out for the best interests of the Dems?

[Blue State Bandit]

26. Exactly!

[sabrina 1]

28. I think the Republicans are just playing the role

they are supposed to play. The truth is that the Senate Bill, as the Democrats themselves said at the Summit, is a bill that includes everything Republicans (and the Ins. Industry) wanted. It's what Repubs ran on. Mandates, no PO etc.

It does NOT have the support of Independents and the base of the Dem Party. But when Repubs put up a fight, it makes Democrats feel they have to defend it. If this same bill were proposed by Republicans, Dems would be screaming their heads off.

Pretty good tactics to pretend to oppose what the majority can pass anyhow, after they make it look like we still have two parties.

Without a PO this bill, as Nancy Pelosi said, should appeal to Republicans and I believe it does. That is why they are all reading from a script, using the same talking points. Just doing their job of keeping the profits flowing to the Insurance Ind.

And finally, if this were not the case, Dems should just call their bluff and pass a bill with a strong PO. My question is, why are Dems not doing that IF the temper tantrums by the Repubs are not just an act? That's what the people want. Imho, it's because they are all working for big business and what the people want doesn't matter.

'Political suicide' would be doing what the people want in the current political system we live under. Anyone who does that, will not be funded in the election.

The Senate Bill should not pass as it is, regardless of the games they are all playing. Not unless it includes something that brings us closer to a national healthcare system and paves the way to remove the corrupt private insurance industry from our healthcare system. Obama and the Dems could do it, so why don't they?

[Blue State Bandit]

30. YES!!!

[leftstreet]

31. Exactly!

Well said