Don't bring your kids, or your mom to a job interview

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.suntimes.com/business/2075851,CST-NWS-Jobs01.article

March 1, 2010

BY FRANCINE KNOWLES Staff Reporter

To some job candidates, the obvious just isn't. They apply for the job, get the important interview, and then blow it.

At Sears, one woman showed up with her two children, around ages 3 and 5. The staff had to entertain them while she was interviewing for a financial analyst or manager's position.

Two male Sears candidates, hoping to land management trainee positions -- their first jobs out of college -- brought their parents to the interview.

These are among stories shared by hiring managers of outrageous behavior and poor decisions by some candidates.

[Liberal_in_LA]

1. hee hee!

[Liberal_in_LA]

2. I had to explain to a 30 year old job hunter - that typos on his resume would get it tossed into

the trash. His response "Really?"

[dmallind]

6. One aside to this is always fun

I have seen several fairly capable CVs, well-written and designed, just a bit marred by having email addresses like "[e-mail]" listed as the contact. (faked example used to protect the....guilty).

And no his name was not Richard and he wasn't born in 1969 just in case you thought that!

[Codeine]

94. I had a contractor

bidding for a major upgrade to our store hand me a business card; his email was "majorissues6969@***.com"

Yeah, I'm really gonna take this clown seriously. :eyes:

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

109. I always get a chuckle when someone hands me a business card using AOL email

This is 2010 and I think if the business(computer)is any good they will get their own domain & email...

I think their is still a doctor in town that still has AOL email.

[dmallind]

7. One aside to this is always fun

I have seen several fairly capable CVs, well-written and designed, just a bit marred by having email addresses like "[e-mail]" listed as the contact. (faked example used to protect the....guilty).

And no his name was not Richard and he wasn't born in 1969 just in case you thought that!

[BonnieJW]

10. I once had a young woman interview for a job,

and she told me she would have to bring her boyfriend in with her if she came for a second interview.

[muffin1]

53. The best typo ever...

Under the heading 'Position Wanted', the applicant wrote 'cash year'. It took me a few seconds to realize what he meant - 'cashier'.

:wtf:

Another thing that happened quite frequently was under the heading 'Address'. Should be easy, right?
In our little town, there is a street named 'Lafayette Street'. MAYBE, if you were unfamiliar with the street, you might misspell it.
But if you LIVE on that street?????

[wellstone dem]

3. I hired someone once who brought her mom to an interview

Her father had recently died. The woman and her brothers were just in the midst of helping their mom through this. I hired this candidate partly because the job was service to those in crisis, I thought her empathy, understanding, risk-taking in bringing her mom, priorities, and compassion all made her a good fit for the job. I was right.

[Hello_Kitty]

15. There are always exceptions but as a general rule taking parents with you looks really lame. eom

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. Yeah

However, I have a small publishing company that is advertising driven. I used to make a decent living until the real estate and leisure market was taken out and shot in Florida. I took care of my mom from the time she was seventy eight until she passed away at ninety in 2008. I used to take her with me on sales calls when I couldn't find someone to watch her which was quite often. I would usually let her wait for me in the lobby or waiting area. Surprisingly many clients insisted I bring her in on the presentation. I used to tell her she was my colleague and contributed to my success. God I miss her.

[laruemtt]

65. hugs to you, DemocratSinceBirth.

i'm in florida right now visiting with my 95-year-old mom. i don't know how i am going to be able to leave her, and i don't know how i'm going to stand it when she is gone. {{{{hugs}}}}

[Lydia Leftcoast]

67. I was going to interview for a teaching job once and my mother ASKED if she should come along

I said, "What for?" and she didn't have an answer.

So yes, I went alone, and yes, I got the job.

[cui bono]

90. Especially when you just graduated college.

I take it they lived at home throughout school.

[Lerkfish]

4. and don't be over 50 -- that gaffe is unforgiveable, apparently

[dmallind]

8. I just hired at least one over 50 applicant this week - possibly two

Since it is both illegal and irrlevant to ask, I can't say for sure in the latter case, but in the former his graduation date and work history point to either a child prodigy who didn't quite pan out or somebody definitely over 50, supported by physical appearance of the latter option.

[MineralMan]

27. It depends on the business. Some companies are beginning to

recognize that 50+ employees bring something to the job that younger applicants don't. However, if you walk in and the HR person is about 25, you might as well walk out. You remind them of their parents, and their parents are universally terminally stupid.

Some companies are beginning to realize that nobody they hire will still be working there in five years, so career goals aren't so important these days. Not all, but some.

The web designer I contract with to produce content is about 25. It took him one job to realize that my long experience writing about different industries was a big plus. The last site I did content for was an Equine Veterinary Clinic. The content made the owner of the clinic so happy...he called me and asked me how long I'd worked around horses. I told him that horses scared the crap out of me, but that writing about them wasn't so tough. All the information I needed was easily available.

Experience pays. It's just a matter of convincing HR that your experience is valuable to the company. Not everyone will respond favorably, but it's not a lost cause.

[Codeine]

95. Shit, I prefer over fifties.

They have a better work ethic and don't call off every time they get the sniffles or a hangover.

[Jimbo S]

97. My old employer just hired a 70-year old

Yes, my old manager was an incompetant fuck and they decided to bring someone on to run the department. Can't believe it took twenty years for them to realize the need for this.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

5. And If You're A Woman, Be Sure To Have Big Boobs, Please

:evilgrin:

[jgraz]

25. And if you're a guy, be sure not to.

:hide:

[TheCowsCameHome]

32. That was crude.

Is there a minimum size requirement?

:rofl:

[jmowreader]

58. They should be visible as breasts

I met a woman--she's not a cancer survivor, she told me without me even asking--who is completely board-flat. You know how Kate Moss has no chest at all? Compared to this woman, Kate Moss is STACKED. She accentuates this physique by dressing in men's power suits with white men's shirts and a men's haircut, then displays her femininity by wearing full makeup and pink neckties. Which, until you actually speak to her, makes you think you're looking at the most out gay man in the state of Tennessee.

Brooks Brothers and L'Oreal really don't go together...

[Hekate]

88. Let me help here: you have a complaint about mixed signals, gender-bending attire...

... and some of this may be legit based on the situation at work. May be. Could be she LIKES giving off mixed signals, rather like Johnny Depp's androgyny.

Just take the breasts thing out of the comment, because it detracts from what you seem to be wanting to say.

Hekate

[jmowreader]

98. The breasts thing is kinda important to the whole thing here

because without the makeup and earrings, you would have had a DAMN hard time convincing yourself you weren't dealing with a man.

[Hekate]

103. As I said, could be she just likes to give off those Johnny Depp signals and enjoys the reaction...

You may very well be right that the flat chest is part of the program.

H

[Kalyke]

38. Why is a man who thinks like this even on DU?

Seriously - that's all there is to a woman? Having big boobs?

:eyes:

[jdp349]

42. see text

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Habibi]

61. +1

[Morning Dew]

54. This particular woman

never cared about boob size when she was doing the hiring.

[Hekate]

84. I worked for this guy once -- how shall I put this delicately -- who thought with his dick....

He didn't hire me, the office admin assistant did; then our mutual boss got promoted, and I was left with Dave. I must have been the only woman he'd ever met who was immune to his pheromones. :eyes: (Actually, since I had two small children to support I was scared spitless every day and pretty much immune to everyone's pheromones.)

This didn't come up while I worked for him, but I was very slender in those days, and no, I didn't have much chest.

When I moved on, one of my guy-pals let me know that my replacement, hand-selected by Dave (as it were) was mightily well-developed. We lol'd.

Couldn't run the office worth a damn, but mmm-mm, she clearly fulfilled other min-quals for the job.

Sadly, though, it works the other way as well. I've known women built like Gypsy Rose Lee who wanted to be valued for their brains, and all the Daves of the world could see was their boobs.

Hekate

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. My sister works in HR and was going to hire a guy one time until he called

to cancel a follow up interview. He left a voicemail saying "I'm going to have to reschedule because my sister OD'd this weekend and I need to go kill the son of a bitch who did this to her."

:rofl:

[keroro gunsou]

12. depending on the line of work

i'd hire him. props to him for sticking up for his sister.

[Book Lover]

20. Apparently there is no room for forgiveness to those in immediate grief (nm)

[dmallind]

23. ..or perhaps they should reschedule the interview for when they can devote full attention to it. NT

[RaleighNCDUer]

47. Like, about the time he gets out of prison? nt

[dmallind]

49. Yes - a prisoner should not be interviewing! NT ;)

[HughBeaumont]

11. Have an MBA, 20 years experience and be 27-32 years old. Oh, and $35k should be your max.

21st Century America.



"This is my town, and don't you forget it."

[slampoet]

101. If you are a tech you should have 10 years exp in programs that are 4 years old

[Blue_In_AK]

13. Obviously.

It sure didn't work for Sarah Palin.

[Juneboarder]

14. This happened at my work. The funny thing is...

she got hired! Seriously!!

[Lyric]

16. I really hate this mentality. Really.

When you don't have childcare or resources to fall back on, what are you supposed to do? Forgo all interviews, go jobless, and starve, or take the kids to the interview and pray that the employer is merciful and understanding? Not EVERYONE has a friend or family member who can babysit in a pinch. This is SO common with the low-income women that I do volunteer work with. There are many, many opportunities that are lost just because there's no available, trustworthy, affordable, short-term childcare. What's sad is that most states have childcare assistance programs that will provide care either free or dirt cheap, but ONLY after you've found a job. There's no help at all available for the interim, in which you need childcare in order to do things like career counseling, job training, attending interviews, and (ironically) going through the welfare application process itself. They actually have a sign posted in the lobby of the welfare office here in my city that says (paraphrased): "WV WORKS applications can take 2-4 hours to complete. Please do not bring your children to your appointment. Thank you." Because women who can afford to pay a babysitter are TOTALLY going to be applying for TANF. :eyes:

I'm looking into starting a small service called "Babysitting in a Pinch" for women who are in this situation. I'll have to get together a group of volunteers who are childcare-certified, but as soon as I do, I'd like to offer short-term, free-or-cheap childcare to poor women who are either job-hunting or going through training programs and other appointments that require them to be away from their kids before they're eligible for state-subsidized childcare. It's a huge gap and it needs to be filled.

In the meantime, I resent the hell out of articles like this that subtly mock and ridicule women who are stuck in these situations. Life is hell when you're a poor mother. I think people who cast stones at these already-beaten-down women should be ashamed of themselves.

[MineralMan]

19. I understand, but a typical company has many applicants for

the open job. If you show up with kids in tow, you're not likely to be the one hired. Resourcefulness is prized in interviews. It may not be fair, but few things are. The person hired will not be the one with the kids tagging along.

[dustbunnie]

21. The woman in the OP was applying for a managerial position.

Because it's a position that usually comes with responsibility, it isn't a great idea to show up looking as though you are the one who's going to be needing the care and managing. It isn't fair to the other employees.

[Xithras]

28. It's a catch 22 for employers.

If an applicant is unable to find a babysitter for an interview, it throws into question their ability to find a babysitter for regular work days. Are they going to be toting along a baby when they come into the office? Calling in a few days a week because they can't get someone to watch their kid?

Unfortunately, the EEOC has declared that it's illegal for a potential employer to even ask about their childcare resources, because doing so could be construed as discrimination against their familial status. If the applicant doesn't volunteer the information without being asked ("I couldn't get a babysitter today, but I do have one and this will never happen again"), the potential employer is left with no choice but to assume that this is a potentially recurring situation.

And at that point, the decision is simple. If you have one applicant for whom childcare is questionable, and another with no such issues that you're aware of, you're going to choose the least potentially problematic employee.

[Lyric]

35. I can't imagine that many of these women

WOULDN'T volunteer information ("The state will give me regular, dependable childcare as of my first day at work, but not until then"), and probably fall all over themselves apologizing, too. It's humiliating to be in that situation, and I can't imagine NOT apologizing and explaining.

One solution would be to make childcare a government service, free for everyone, paid for by taxes. The infrastructure is already there! All we need to do is to we expand the public school system to accommodate children from birth, instead of just from kindergarten. The kids would get teachers who've gone through government training and background checks, parents would get safe, reliable childcare available from the minute their kids are born, and employers would get lots more talent to choose from and increased productivity. But no, I guess that would be too simple. *sigh*

[Xithras]

51. You'd be surprised.

I've sat through quite a few interviews where I was left wondering "What is the WORLD was that person thinking?!?!" Things that may seem obvious to you and I aren't so obvious to everyone. Inexperience, differing cultural norms, and outright obliviousness can sometimes lead people into doing some incredibly stupid things in interviews.

[NEOhiodemocrat]

56. I had to take my two very small children to a meeting once

to get food stamps after a divorce. The caseworker got upset when my one year old reached over and nabbed a little toy animal from the edge of her desk, told me to get a baby sitter the next time I had to come in. I told her, "you know, if I had the money for a baby sitter I wouldn't be here talking to you". That was 37 years ago and I still get mad when I think of it. For four or five months of assistance I was treated like that? I think she should have found another line of work if the presence of a 1 and 2 year old threw her off her game, and why have a toy on the edge of the desk to tempt the child and then complain when it is touched? I think she was just mean.
Thank you Lyric for your understanding.

[dustbunnie]

66. Your situation is totally different though, so yes, the caseworker serving you was an ass.

In this case a woman who was being interviewed for a managerial position apparently didn't tell anyone she would be arriving with children in tow, which then required the staff to leave their work aside to take care of them. That doesn't exhibit really great managerial skills, and it's kind of selfish. What personal or extraneous demands would she be making of her future emps if that's how she behaves at an interview? These are all the things that run through an interviewer's mind.

[FedUpWithIt All]

82. +1000 n/t

[krabigirl]

83. In a word, YES. They do think we should just die.

[Hekate]

87. That's a wonderful idea and I hope you can make it come to fruition. Childcare was one of my worst

... problems when I was a single working mom. The daycare center cost half my take-home pay and gods forbid either of the kids got sick. Finally I found a woman who would babysit slightly-sick kids in her home, and I was so desperate to keep my job that I simply took her references at face value and utilized her services.

I counted myself very lucky that I had some resources when I was looking for work in the first place, or I would have been in the same boat as your ladies who are trying to fill out apps with that sign overhead forbidding them to bring their kids.

Hekate

[blueworld]

105. +100 n/t

[MineralMan]

17. Questions not to ask at job interviews:

Normally, applicants get a chance to ask their own questions during job interviews. I suggest avoiding the following one:

1. How long do I have to work here before I get a vacation?
2. When will I get my first raise.
3. Where's the nearest smoking area?
4. Who do I call if I'm sick some morning?
5. How much do YOU make?
6. Are there any real assholes in the office where I'll be working?
7. Does anyone mind if I heat up Indian food for lunch?
8. Is the office radio set to listen to Rush? I always listen to Rush.
9. Do you block porn sites on office computers?
10. Can I park in the first row in the parking lot?

[dmallind]

22. Several are perfectly appropriate from that list

Such as 1 and 2, maybe 4

Some may need rewording but are basically fine - you could ask about personality conflicts for 6, or rules for eating in shared areas for 7 (full disclosure - I often heat up Inidan food for lunch!). Parkijng rules for 10. You DO need to know all these things.

5 and 9 are obviously out, and 8 and 3 are best saved for when you are on the job and talking to people known to be kindred spirits.

[MineralMan]

41. Maybe for a second interview. At a first interview, they're bad

questions. They indicate that the applicant is only concerned with how the job affects him. There are much better questions an applicant can raise at a first interview. Questions about the business, for example. Showing an interest in the business, rather than one's self is always a plus.

[dmallind]

50. Agreed, but the post did not specify.

I would expect these at a final interview going well, or at a single screening interview for entry level work.

[MineralMan]

59. I apologize for my imprecision.

[Xithras]

43. No, they shouldn't be asked at an interview.

Questions 1 & 2 are appropriate for an interviewee to know, but aren't questions for the interview itself. Typically they can be answered by a follow up call to HR. The rest are things to ask AFTER you have been hired, when you're filling out your paperwork and getting ready to start your first day.

[dmallind]

48. Done a few hundred interviews with applicants and disagree

I consider it perfectly acceptable to ask about benefits and rules in an interview, especially if it's a final interview going well. Perosnally I will refer them to HR unless I am 100% sure about the answer, but that's my failing (or risk avoidance if you prefer) not theirs.

[woodsprite]

30. Some other things not to do -

1) Don't be 90 min. late for your interview with no explanation.

2) When asked how you deal with a stressful day, don't say "walk out" or "go find a drink"

3) don't talk about how hot you were in your native country going around in your hot pants and 'fro

4) when asked what your biggest obstacle has been and how you over came it, don't answer "trying to get on the good side of my new boss, but buying the wrong kinds of cigarettes for a boss who had recently stopped smoking." How he overcame it - he apoligized to the bosses wife. This was the same guy who answered he looked hot in very short shorts, so maybe he made up in other ways too.

5) Don't send "Thank you" notes where the words "Thank you" are spelled out in Ascii character art.

Yup, this was from an actual interview a few months ago.

[soleft]

24. I'm 47 and I've never been on a job interview

I've never had a resume.

I filled out a temp application at an evil corporation 26 years ago and I've been here ever since.

[KittyWampus]

26. Some people have to be taught to show up on time. To dress neatly. To wash themselves. To be polite.

Seriously, if you haven't any adults in your immediate environment growing up, it's not always a given these skills will just magically be assimilated from ones culture.

[Cassandra]

33. Also if you don't see those adults going to an office job every day...

how would you know what to wear? There was a story years ago of young women from a poor neighborhood having to be told that a revealing cocktail dress was not business attire.

[Cassandra]

29. Somewhere there's a list of weird resumes and evaluations.

The funniest one was an evaluation of a soldier in a command position:
"His men would follow him anywhere, if only out of morbid curiosity."

Maybe 15 years ago I placed an ad in a trade press publication looking for salesperson in the Midwest. The resumes that came in were an entire instruction booklet on how not to write a resume. Ages of their children and wife (huh?), poor spelling, strange qualifications. One man sold 10k rings and thought the next step should be designer jewelry. I gently suggested to him that his next step should be 10k pendants or 14k rings. Not being snobby but he didn't have any connections to the sort of stores for which my pieces were suited. The rule is; either the designer or the salesperson should be well known, otherwise you won't get in the door. A salesperson who's less well known but really aggressive (in a nice way) can also work out. Another guy had a major in Phys Ed from a state college. I asked a friend who was from that state and she said it wasn't like getting a Phys Ed degree from Notre Dame.

[Enrique]

31. she may need the job to be able to afford child care n/t

[MineralMan]

No doubt. But, that's not generally a reason to hire.

If you put yourself in the position of the person doing the hiring, you're going to hire the one who showed up with no kids in tow. You get to choose whom you hire. There are always multiple applicants. If you're an applicant, you need to make yourself the best applicant. If the job doesn't entail childcare, then bringing your children to the interview isn't a plus. Someone else will get the job.

It may not be fair, but there it is.

[DarbyUSMC]

44. So, if hired, until she gets first pay, the children will come to work with her?

Someone gets an important job interview and doesn't have one family member or one friend who can watch her children? That would be very sad. My daughter has a temp agency and is amazed at the number of mothers who call for their sons about jobs and try to arrange interviews. Some also come to the interview and try to do all the talking as well as filling out the application. These aren't high skilled job but they do require a HS diploma or GED. Even if all of that doesn't kill the chances for being hired, the last nail in the coffin is the drug test. Mother dearest can't go into the bathroom with him.

[Initech]

34. Bill Maher had a great new rule about that:

"New rule - if you get to bring your kids to work, I get to bring a Mexican mariachi band. The only difference is that for $20 I can get the band to go away and annoy someone else."

[xultar]

36. What kind of parents wouldn't know enough to realise that going to a kids nterview is a bad idea?

[MineralMan]

39. Helicopter parents. They're everywhere these days.

Even some really nice people have trouble letting their offspring handle things for themselves. Last summer, I took the 15 year old son of my wife's friend out fishing in my boat. Mom insisted on driving him to the lake, even though I offered to pick him up at their house on the way. Then, she sat in the parking lot in her car for three hours while we were fishing. Uff da!

It's not like I'm a stranger, either. I've known these people for years. The boy's 15 years old, stands over 6' tall, and seems pretty capable of riding safely in a boat. I even made him wear a life-jacket. I'm not sure what his mom's deal was. She's usually pretty good about stuff.

The sad thing is that I'm not going to ask the kid if he wants to go fishing again. He's a nice kid, too. I just didn't like spending three hours worrying about his mom sitting in a car in a parking lot. Seemed pretty silly to me. Who knows how she would have reacted if the kid got stuck with a hook in his finger or something.

[tabbycat31]

99. I must admit my dad has come to job interviews with me

at his insistance not mine. He stays in the car.

[xultar]

102. That's not bringing them with you to the interview though. As long as they don't

come in and wait in the waiting room or something...so the person interviewing you doesn't see them.

I think that is what they were talking about.

[Jane Austin]

37. Well, on a serious note

my 42-year-old son, who went back to school for his BS in Electrical Engineering, just got hired by IBM.

His only experience was an internship with HP. They made him an offer, he asked for more money - a reasonable amount - and they met that and hired him.

He is middle-aged, losing his hair, smart (but not a genius) and needs to hit the gym.

IBM must have seen in him what I do.

He's a great guy with a commendable work ethic and he is up to the job.

Don't give up. My son found a good job.

[Blue_Tires]

40. what about those of us smart enough to NOT do those things

and still can't get hired?:banghead:

[MineralMan]

45. Keep going. There's a job for you. It's not easy to find that job,

but keep working at it.

[pipi_k]

46. Years ago there was this seminar for job hunters which attracted some attention

in my area.

The problem was the written material/pamphlet that was handed out where there were tips listed, and a few of them concerned personal hygiene stuff, like using deodorant, bathing, shaving (men), etc.

Some people got really insulted by the whole thing, but the truth of it is...as we've seen here in the OP...there really are some awfully clueless individuals out in the world who need to be told exactly what to do. Or what not to do.

[Vickers]

52. After I interviewed at my current company, they called me back in

to sign something. I couldn't get anyone to watch my kids, so I called them back and said I would have to bring my kids with me, but they would hang out in the lobby reading. The HR person said that was fine.

I went in and signed the form, and came back out and the boss of the place was out there talking to all of my kids. She later told me that was one of the things that sealed the deal.

That was almost 4 years ago.

[CrispyQ]

55. A previous boss of mine was interviewing to replace me, after I gave my notice.

One applicant scheduled her interview on her lunch break. She brought in a Kentucky Fried chicken meal & once seated at the table in my boss's office, proceeded to spread her meal out & eat during the interview - sometimes talking with her mouth full. I couldn't believe that she couldn't bypass lunch for one day or eat at her own desk when she returned to work.

[dixiegrrrrl]

57. True story:

Candidate for a Dept. Head job put his hand on the knee of the female HR Admin.
while asking about "those pesky discrimination policies that some agencies think are so important".

I was in the room.

Also, if you going to interview for a job with an Addiction Program, don't show up drunk.

I was the interviewer for that one.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MineralMan]

62. That's pretty funny.

Oh, wait...you were being serious?

[Quantess]

63. That HAS to be a joke!

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Quantess]

69. I think you're pretty hilarious.

:rofl:

[Robb]

72. Alcoholism is a disability?

I suppose I could see it that way. :shrug:

[Grimm]

85. It actually is in a number of provinces in Canada

It's mind-boggling, but I can say for certain in Ontario and a few other provinces, being an alcoholic or drug addict is considered a disability per the Ontario Human Rights Code. I wouldn't be surprised if a few states have similar legislation.

The Canadian courts have basically said with regards to the hiring process that if you refuse to hire a guy because you think they're disabled by drugs/alcohol, then that's not allowed. Furthermore, if an employee is disabled, employers have a duty to accommodate them, such as getting them help or moving the employee to another position, assuming it's not too unreasonable/expensive a duty for the employer and being sober isn't a "bonafide occupational requirement".

[TommyO]

77. I have plenty of compassion for the disabled, including those who suffer from addiction,

but I most certainly wouldn't hire somebody who showed up drunk for an interview.

[Scout]

70. i wouldn't hire them either if they showed up drunk for an interview

and it doesn't mean they are "disabled" if they are an alcoholic.

and it doesn't mean they are an alcoholic at all just because they showed up drunk for the interview.

:eyes:

[Leftist Agitator]

71. "and it doesn't mean they are "disabled" if they are an alcoholic."

Yes it does. They are powerless over alcohol, just as a paraplegic is powerless to stand and walk.

Are you saying that paraplegics aren't disabled?!

[Scout]

73. having been married to an alcoholic and subjected to the sickness bullshit

no, i don't believe they are disabled and i don't believe they are powerless over alcohol.

of course paraplegics are disabled.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

96. You're being a troll and an ass.

That's not what Scout is saying, and you fucking know it. Alerted.

[Scout]

74. am i disabled because i am fat and "powerless over food"? n/t

[Leftist Agitator]

76. Does your weight interfere with living a normal life?

If so, then you are indeed most likely disabled.

[SallyMander]

79. This post should be the first hit

when you Google "straw man" :rofl:

[AlienGirl]

80. A paraplegic would not be hired for a job that required climbing ladders all day

If a disability interferes with the primary functions of a job and cannot be reasonably accommodated, the employer isn't at fault for refusing to hire the applicant with that disability. Since the job was to help addicts (including severe alcoholics) recover, a worker who was drunk on the job or smelled of alcohol would be unable to perform that job. Even if the applicant has been declared disabled due to alcoholism, on-the-job alcohol use would be a legit reason not to hire.

I've worked at more places than not that would fire you if you drank alcohol on your lunch break, too!

Tucker

[npk]

89. Alcoholics are not disabled.

You need to understand the difference in being disabled and suffering from an addiction. Disablement is physical. As in not being able to physically do something. Alcoholism is an affliction or more to the point a disease. The difference is that people can overcome alcoholism and cure themselves. You can not cure a permanent disablement. If you are paralyzed, you are paralyzed for life. You are doing a disservice to those people that are actually disabled by comparing people with alcoholism to being disabled.

[Lyric]

91. If you're an alcoholic, you're an alcoholic for life.

There are sober alcoholics, but once you identify the disease, you ARE an alcoholic--and alcohol is dangerous for you--for the rest of your life, whether you drink any more or not. This is the very first thing that ALL alcoholics have to learn when they go into recovery and detox.

Alcoholism is a combination mental and physical disability; mental because of the psychological problems that go along with the disease, physical because of the genetic aspect of the disease that makes alcoholics far more susceptible to addictive behaviors than normal, healthy people. Trying to compartmentalize it as something other than a REAL disability is just another way of saying, "You made yourself sick because you're weak and you have no willpower. Tough shit." It really doesn't work like that. Not everyone who's born with a genetic predisposition to alcoholism becomes an alcoholic. Then again, not everyone who's born with genes that make them more likely to develop schizophrenia actually *gets* schizophrenia. That doesn't mean that schizophrenia is not a disability.

And no, disabilities are NOT just "physical" things. There are plenty of mental disorders that are disabilities, one of which I just mentioned above. Did you know that using methamphetamine can cause severe, disabling mental illness later in life? Paranoia, psychosis, hallucinations...meth use can literally drive you insane. However, we don't tell former meth-heads who develop into psychotics that their mental illness isn't a disability. It IS a disability--whether their own irresponsible behaviors contributed to it or not. If some guy spends his life juggling chainsaws in a circus to make money, that's a really stupid and unwise thing to do, but if he cuts off his leg, we don't tell him that he's not REALLY disabled. You can disapprove of the behaviors that CONTRIBUTE to alcoholism without denying the reality that it IS a disease, and that addiction IS a disability when it gets severe enough.

And frankly, I found YOUR condescending and patronizing attitude about disabled people to be extremely offensive. Disabled people do not think with one great big Hive Mind. They have widely differing opinions and views. Some of them (most of them, in my experience) accept that alcoholism is a disability. Others do not--they tend to be the more conservative types, in my experience, and their denial is based largely on fear. What is that fear? That conservative, normally-abled people will be OUTRAGED because they've lost yet another Moral Highground, and will take out that anger on ALL disabled people--voting to remove funding for services that are desperately needed. Disabled people live under constant threat of attack from the right-wing reactionaries in a way that normally-abled people cannot easily understand. Imagine if much of your life and livelihood was dependent upon making sure that the Freeper types don't go all Tea-Party on YOUR rights and start protesting against all of the accommodations that the law requires them to make for the disabled. They already grumble about it. Right now they're just itching for a reason to go postal on everything they see as a "liberal" policy--including the ADA. The conservative members of the disabled community would quite happily throw ANYONE under the bus in order to protect the ADA, whether it was fair or not. You have no idea how incredibly protective people can be about the ADA, especially because the ADA is SO very vulnerable. When the right-wing uprising comes, the ADA will most certainly be up against the wall, along with welfare and Food Stamps and HUD and the NEA and everything else the conservatives love to hate.

Disabled-community politics is incredibly complicated. There are fears and anxieties inside of the community that outsiders never know about. I only have this knowledge because my older sister was born with severe cerebral palsy and has been a disabled activist for decades. There's an entire other world underneath and intertwined with ours, and we happily ignore it every day.

As for the ADA itself--it doesn't contain a "list of approved conditions" that "count" as disabled--it just says that a person must have a condition that significantly impairs their everyday life. The EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) DOES count alcoholism as a disability if it impairs everyday life. Read more about this here:

http://www.jan.wvu.edu/media/alcohol.html

[npk]

106. Um no. You are talking addiction. Addiction is not, will not, nor has it ever been the same.

as disablement. Alcoholism is an addiction. An addiction can be treated and overcome. Where as a permanent disability cannot. Drinking too much may lead to a temporary state of confusion, or impairment, but we are not talking the same thing as an individual who looses a limb, the loss of their legs, so on and so forth. Also some who is mentally retarded is permanently disabled. They may learn to cope with their disability, but it can't be taken away. People who drink and become alcoholics are not permanently disabled nor are they suffering from a permanent disability in the same way as person who is either mentally retarded or has lost the use of a portion of their body part. People who drink make a choice to drink, they can make a choice to stop drinking. A person can't make a choice to stop being mentally retarded. I am not saying that people who suffer from alcoholism have it easy. Yes it is a very tough and painful addiction that a great deal of people suffer, some their entire lives with. But people do battle the addiction and overcome it's afflictions. Just because you don't know people who have successfully overcome drinking doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

My uncle was a fall down drunk in his 20's. He suffered through years of alcoholism and other afflictions. However, through many years of treatment he has overcome that addiction. I am sorry I do not agree with you that people who drink constantly are disabled. They may be temporarily impaired to some extent from time to time, but that is limited to when they are engaging in substance abuse. And BTW the ADA does not classify nor has it ever classified those with substance abuse problems as being disabled. So I am sorry.

[Arkana]

64. Oh God.

Sometimes I think my father would come on mine if I let him.

[Cleita]

78. OTOH, how are people who are unemployed supposed to pay for child care

if they don't have some stay at home friend or relative to leave them with? I do know it's annoying for the staff as I have been in that position in the doctor's office where I work, where patients arrive with their children and I'm stuck with them while they are with the doctor, but it seems that there should be some accommodation there. As for the parents, yes they should be left at home.

[ctaylors6]

92. I agree

I'm sure most of these parents try to find someone to watch their kids. Sometimes you just can't find someone, especially if you don't have much or any money to pay someone to do so. In those cases, I'd bring my kids along before I'd give up a job interview. Sometimes you find someone and it falls through at the last minute. After some of the experiences I've had since becoming a mom and needing childcare, I think I'd have a very different perspective than I had before I had kids. If someone came in for an interview and apologized for having to bring their kids because they couldn't get childcare despite trying very hard, I hope I'd be open-minded enough to not hold that against them.

As far as the doctor, I've had to bring my kids a few times. I often have to book doctor appointments weeks and sometimes months out. I try my hardest to schedule when I won't have my kids but sometimes sitters fall through at the last minute, or sometimes you can't arrange a sitter as far in advance as some doctors book appointments. If I end up with a choice between rescheduling 2 months later or dragging them along, I usually drag them along although I don't like that either.

All this reminds me of a very annoying experience I had the other day at a doctor's office. I was scheduling an appointment for 6 months out (this doctor usually books up about 3 or more months in advance). The woman told me the only time he could me was on Wednesdays at 2pm. The appointments usually take over an hour (visit + tests). I have kids at 2 different schools to pick up at 3pm. I asked to schedule for any day of the week at any other time so I wouldn't be there at 3pm. I was extremely polite (I swear!). I explained that's when I pick my kids up. She got so angry at me and said things like I had 6 months to find someone to watch my kids, why couldn't I do so. I had just finished the same exact kind of appointment at 11:45 (which had been no problem to book) and she explained how lucky I was that the doctor had an opening to see me then. I asked her if it was possible when I was closer to the day of my appointment to switch the time and she got even more angry and told me no. I went ahead and scheduled it for 2pm and I should be able to get child coverage, but it'll be a risk that something falls through or I can't arrange something.

[Cleita]

93. She's certainly out of line. I certainly would never treat a patient like that.

There is always something that can be done like moving other appts.. You'd be surprised how willing patients are to help you out if you need to switch appts. to help someone else out like you. I would tell the doctor next time you see him. They need to know what the person on the front desk is doing. You also need to tell the doctor when they have been helpful too.

[soleiri]

81. What? Now you tell me!

Mom! kids! Get out of the car!

[Kat45]

86. Whenever I see this stuff, I say, "And I can get a job??!!"

Do that many people do shit like this? I don't do any of these things, and I can't seem to find a permanent job at all. Been looking for over a year.

[grantcart]

100. good luck keep trying

[Manifestor_of_Light]

107. I quit looking years ago.

12 years of college, 3 degrees, including a BA in Biology from the best pre-med school in the State of Texas, and a Juris Doctor from an excellent private law school famous for producing trial attorneys.

Got one interview as a legal assistant with a J.D. in two years of looking.



:shrug:

[Rhiannon12866]

104. Reminds me of the episode of "Every Loves Raymond" when Robert has an interview with the FBI...

And Marie (his mother) burned his "Lucky Suit," then tries to "fix" things with his interviewer... I watched the show for those two characters. :rofl:

Everybody Loves Raymond-Lucky Suit: Clip 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cThuaPUD_Q&feature=related

Everybody Loves Raymond-Lucky Suit: Clip 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8neJpsFmzQg&feature=related

[Zynx]

108. As an aside, the application/interview process is so fucking phony.

Honestly, it is such a load of crap. Most of the stuff people put in their cover letters, personal statements, and resumes is utter nonsense. In interviews people just say the same pat lines. I generally do quite well in interviews with a more novel approach, but I still find it to be tedious and dull.