Do you realized how fucked up we are when putting spies in the health systems is good?

[ThomWV]

So, a major part of health care reform will be to put spies in the health care system - maybe a special branch of the CIA (which apparently is not longer restricted from operating in country) could be opened, and possibly Predator Drones could be employed.

What in all of creation has gone wrong with us?


On edit - what less would you expect in a nation where the cop on the beat rides around in a tank - and thinks he is underarmed.

[leftstreet]

1. Predator Drones dropping patients on hospital heli-pads

:crazy:

[Pirate Smile]

2. There is a lot of fraud going on in the Medicare system. I haven't seen anyone dispute that. That

is where Democrats are planning on getting a lot of the $$$ to pay for HCR.

[ThomWV]

3. Do you know that the difference is between a Spy and an investigator? A Warrant.

And that outlandish notion that the state has no right at all spying on its own citizens

[Echo In Light]

6. The mind boggles at how people will defend evil shit

[dionysus]

27. the mind boggles at how people make up crazy conspiracy shit.

:rofl:

[Echo In Light]

32. Of course you're willing to give em the benefit of the doubt

[dionysus]

34. better than acting as if auditing the system for fraud is like sending in the stasi.

:shrug:

[Echo In Light]

37. Skepticism makes more sense than an open arm greeting, but I'm aware of your usual positions.

[dionysus]

39. not when skepticism goes from zero to hitler faster then a ferrari...

[Echo In Light]

41. Track record. Rely on it.

[anigbrowl]

9. Do you think private companies should be free to rip off medicare? I don't.

Reducing fraud doesn't mean CIA-style spying. There's a legitimate public interest in making sure taxpayers' money isn't wasted, same way the IRS audits some people to make sure they're not fiddling their taxes.

[Pirate Smile]

12. Good luck. This doesn't look like a thread to bother with reasonable talk like that. This evil,

KGB type actions. :eyes: All providers are honest and wouldn't try to scam the system to steal $.

[Johonny]

18. The only reason not to investigate

would be if the cost of such investigations ran the government MORE than the amount of fraud detected. I have no idea what the cost ratio of this would be.

[katandmoon]

15. ROFL. Like they don't already do it perfectly legally?

[anigbrowl]

29. ...which is a key reason for seeking to reform the system.

In order to reduce legal abuse of the public healthcare system by large corporations in the health provision or insurance fields, I am quite happy to include mechanisms to detect and curtail fraudulent abuses too.

[asdjrocky]

26. +1 for perfect explanation.

[slipslidingaway]

5. OT - why is that money not staying in the Medicare system to help

with the coming shortfall?

[DURHAM D]

23. look again... nt

[slipslidingaway]

47. Where? The person I responded to says most of that money from Medicare fraud

will be used to pay for the HC bill, IMO any savings from the Medicare program should stay in Medicare.


http://cbo.gov/ftpdocs/108xx/doc10868/12-23-Trust_Fund_Accounting.pdf
http://cbo.gov/ftpdocs/108xx/doc10868/12-23-HI_TF_memo.pdf


CBO suggests Democrats are double-counting Medicare savings

http://www.examiner.com/x-28973-Essex-County-Conservative-Examiner~y2009m12d23-CBO-suggests-Democrats-are-doublecounting-Medicare-savings

"The CBO letter suggests that the projected savings to Medicare are largely illusory, especially if Congress plans to both continue to finance Medicare through 2017 and beyond, and also fund expanded health-care coverage.

In fact, in a significant departure from the usual non-argumentative language that the CBO uses, the CBO actually used the phrase "double-counting" to describe the assumptions that the Senate's plan makes (emphasis added):

The key point is that the savings to the HI trust fund under the PPACA would be received by the government only once, so they cannot be set aside to pay for future Medicare spending and, at the same time, pay for current spending on other parts of the legislation or on other programs. Trust fund accounting shows the magnitude of the savings within the trust fund, and those savings indeed improve the solvency of that fund; however, that accounting ignores the burden that would be faced by the rest of the government later in redeeming the bonds held by the trust fund. Unified budget accounting shows that the majority of the HI trust fund savings would be used to pay for other spending under the PPACA and would not enhance the ability of the government to redeem the bonds credited to the trust fund to pay for future Medicare benefits. To describe the full amount of HI trust fund savings as both improving the government’s ability to pay future Medicare benefits and financing new spending outside of Medicare would essentially double-count a large share of those savings and thus overstate the improvement in the government’s fiscal position...."

[Echo In Light]

4. "What in all of creation has gone wrong with us?" Answer: Americans

That's the problem.

[walldude]

7. Once we got to the point where Torture was a debatable subject

it was over for us. Now insanity has become the mainstream, and things that used to be considered "Un-American" are now common place. Spying, fucking over the middle class. Out and out robber barons, torture, preventative war, we have gone off the deep end and come up on the other side.

[leftstreet]

8. Before long we'll be 'debating' whether elderly people should have care

It's just getting downright scary

[Pirate Smile]

20. Death panels? Yeah, the Dems are putting Death Panels in place.

:eyes:

This is crazy teabagger crap.

[leftstreet]

46. Nice try, but I didn't say anything about the Democrats

Props, though, for not trying to type Obama's name in there somewhere

:eyes:

[ThomWV]

13. +1

[tom_paine]

19. Yep. PNAC was right. All it took was their "New Pearl Harbor" and the American Subject Populace

was so weak, and the RW Lie Machine/Corporate M$M so strong, that we reengineered our mind to that of the 1930s Germans lickety-split.

Gosh, HOW did they know THAT was coming and what the exact result would be (to psychologically turn us into 1930s Germans, or at least strongly down the road towards such)?

And I hate to tell you this, but there's probably no "coming up on the other side".

We haven't even begun to hit RW Authoritarian bottom, that much is clear as day.

[democrank]

10. I`ve got a great idea.....

Why not use some of our "private contractors" being thrown out of Iraq for health care system spies?

[ArcticFox]

11. That's some KGB shit.

Next is rewards for turning in your pot-smoking neighbor. Then for turning in anyone you hear grumbling against the government.

[JoeyT]

49. I don't know if it counts

but the DARE program tells kids to rat their parents out if they're consuming chemicals the state doesn't approve of.

Which actually was a KGB tactic. So they kinda beat you to it.

[julian09]

14. Chris Hanson is due for another sting operation

when they strip, he walks in

[DURHAM D]

16. What a bizarre view on fraud against our government. .

Are you also against investigating KBR and Halliburton for over-billing?

I have to assume you want to protect thieving government contractors who want to steal money from the public coffers. Are you one of them?

[Pirate Smile]

21. Check out the entire thread.

:crazy:

[DURHAM D]

22. something has gone very wrong at DU... nt

[dionysus]

30. pssht! YOU CIA SPY!1!1!

:rofl:

[tom_paine]

28. Consider: the difference between TARGETED investigations based on probable cause

and random spying.

You seem to be conflating the two. Being against random spying is far from being against targeted investigations based on probable cause.

In other words, if there was no probable cause that KBR had overbilled (among other things) and the govt. was talking about randomly spying on various facets of their operations without probable cause, then, yes, I would be against that.

[dionysus]

31. then consider it an audit.

[DURHAM D]

33. The random part doesn't bother me and all because of the vast amount of random fraud

committed against Medicare and Medicaid. Look at it as contract compliance. No probable cause is needed to review a government contract.

Is this too random for you? Start in Florida. Its a medicare/medicaid fraud factory.

[dionysus]

35. they must also be against the financial auditing businesses have to go through...

:shrug:

[DURHAM D]

38. I guess we have some folks here with "issues". nt

[dionysus]

40. queue the joe stack supporters

;)

[tom_paine]

44. Now THAT'S a cheap shot.

Though not entirely surprising. Seems DU is more about cheap shots and talking like they do on Cable TV than debating and thinking, these days.

Well done. Your contribution is appreciated.

:hi:

[dionysus]

45. thx

:D

the stack analogy to me isn't as extreme as the notion we'll end up with nazi-style spying on one another if we try to tackle medical fraud with some sleuthing.

remember, when someone rips off medicade, they're stealing YOUR tax dollars.

:hi:

[slipslidingaway]

17. Obama Tells Congress He Likes Four GOP Ideas For Health Care

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/obama-tells-congress-he-likes-four-gop-ideas-for-health-care.php?ref=fpa

"...Those areas are as follows:

1. Although the proposal I released last week included a comprehensive set of initiatives to combat fraud, waste, and abuse, Senator Coburn had an interesting suggestion that we engage medical professionals to conduct random undercover investigations of health care providers that receive reimbursements from Medicare, Medicaid, and other Federal programs..."

[tom_paine]

24. Ah, but it starts getting the American Subject Populace accustomed to State Spies Everywhere.

Before too long, being afraid of "neighborhood spies" will become common not just in the Health System but in every walk of life.

For in the end, totalitarianism, even Inverted Totalitarianism which we practice here in the Empire, desires as it's ultimate goal control over every aspect of life.

Did you read how the Bushiganda Machine got Marvel Comics to APOLOGIZE when they showed teabaggers type signs in one of their comics?

"What in all of creation has gone wrong with us?" The same thing that has been going wrong with nations and people since the dawn of history. Every time we Plebians try to figure out a new way to loosen our chains, the Aristocracy quickly figures out a way to clamp them tighter again.

There are so many facets and so many ways of looking at this same process, but what it comes down to is humanity repeating the same historical cycles, mistakes, oppressions that we have been repeating apparently since we fell out of the trees.

We are living in the "down" part of the cycle, when the Aristocracy finds a new way to sell people their own oppression, anti-intellectualism rises, and Dark Age begins again.

I will say this, watching the "Rise of the Fourth Reich" here in our Empire, not only in internet-realtime, but not having to fear violent assault (thanks, Adolf, for going so overboard that your methods couldn't be replicated so closely again - at least for now, though I wouldn't make bets on 20 years from now), has been truly fascinating.

The ULTIMATE Disney E-Ticket Ride!

[anigbrowl]

36. Garbage

Fraud is not the biggest problem in our healthcare system. But it's still a problem and one that is best reduced. You know, I come from a country (Ireland) where we do have socialized healthcare, and have worked in that healthcare system myself, as have quite a few of my family. Guess what, some fraud does occur, such as private consultants (specialist doctors) overbilling the public system or people making false disability claims. And some people have the job of trying to detect and reduce such fraud in much the sme way that some people are employed to investigate tax evasion.

[dionysus]

25. you completely ruined your point with woo

"maybe a special branch of the CIA "

:rofl:

[anigbrowl]

42. So how do you feel about IRS auditors? Are they like the CIA too?

I mean, they can just say they've decided to audit you and you have to cooperate or you could get done for tax evasion. How 'totalitarian' is that? some people find the IRS so 'totalitarian' they see fit to do things like crash their plane into the local IRS office.

Can you explain the qualitative difference between tax evasion and medicare fraud?

[dionysus]

43. i guess ripping off the taxpayer is the new "cool"

:shrug:

[Romulox]

48. But the "free market" is the ONLY way. Now please purchase your gov't MANDATED health insurance

like a good consumer...uh, I mean taxpayer.