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Labor Notes: "I've Never seen this much anger at the Democrats from union people"

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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:04 AM
Original message
Labor Notes: "I've Never seen this much anger at the Democrats from union people"
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 01:04 AM by amborin
Anger over Health Care Bill Creates Uncertain Future

by Jane Slaughter

snip

“I’ve never seen this much anger at the Democrats from union people,” said Jeff Crosby, president of a General Electric factory local near Boston, as he prepared a last-minute leaflet to hand out in the plant. “It’s worse than NAFTA.”

Top union leaders had bargained a compromise slowing down the health care benefits tax President Obama insisted on, but it was not enough to placate union members—and others—infuriated that Obama had broken his campaign promise not to tax benefits.

snip

Obama took a hands-off approach to the content of the bill as it crept through Congress. He didn’t insist on a public option nor a strong employer mandate to provide insurance. It was hard not to notice that the only issue on which he took a hard stand was taxing benefits.

At his meeting with a dozen labor leaders at the White House January 11, Obama was firm that a tax on benefits was a must-have—despite his campaign promise to the contrary. “We have a lot of video clips,” said Machinists President Thomas Buffenbarger.

Trumka...... In a January 11 speech at the National Press Club, he said, “In 1992, workers voted for Democrats who promised action on jobs, who talked about reining in corporate greed, and who promised health care reform. Instead, we got NAFTA, an emboldened Wall Street—and not much more. there was no way to persuade enough working Americans to go to the polls when they couldn't tell the difference between the two parties.”

snip

So labor leaders reached a deal with White House negotiators January 14 that accepted the tax they’d previously declared unacceptable. The deal announced by Trumka and his counterparts at Change to Win and the National Education Association would have exempted those in union-negotiated plans and state and local employees from the tax until 2018.

It also would have raised the threshold at which the tax kicked in for many other plans: those containing significant numbers of women, older workers, or retirees age 55 and up, or those in high-cost states, the latter affecting more than 38 million workers. Those provisions would have delayed those groups’ hit as well.

Trumka’s goal was to exempt as many people as possible, union and non-union, from ever paying the tax, though only the velocity of health care cost inflation would have proved how successful he was.

“Most of the 31 million insured employees who would be hit by the excise tax are not union members,” Trumka noted before the deal was struck. But in the end unions bought extra time for their members at the cost of making themselves look self-interested. The deal will create awkward moments for union health care activists who’ve spent years trying to build broad coalitions.

STILL OPPOSED
Not all top union leaders backed the compromise plan. Buffenbarger told Labor Notes his members at Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and General Dynamics were already over the $23,000 threshold at which the tax would originally kick in.

“No bill is better than this bill,” Buffenbarger said. “We don't care what the amount is that they peg it to: because of inflation, whatever number will be gobbled up pretty quickly.”

snip

http://www.labornotes.org/2010/01/anger-over-health-care-bill-creates-uncertain-future
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. Perhaps it's time to take heed.
AND STOP LICKING REPUBLICAN ASS.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Might be too late
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #4
34. Mr. Tesha and I went to the SEIU-led pro-healthcare march held in Boston a couple of weeks ago...
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 08:10 AM by Tesha
...and union members from the GE plant mentioned in the
article were there, with one woman speaking to the crowd.

They, in one word, are "pissed".

And many of them explicitly stated that they had just voted
for Scott Brown (the new Republican Senator) not because
they wanted a Republican, but because they wanted to
send a loud-and-clear message to Democrats that we
can't expect them to endlessly support a party that, once
elected, turns around and repeatedly screws the working
men and women of America. (This message, BTW, is the
very message that so many in the party, in the media, and
here have said "wasn't being sent", but we heard it clearly
and unambiguously direct from many folks there: the recent
Senate election was intended as a warning to national
Democrats.)

If we Democrats don't deliver a fair, workable health care
reform package for all Americans *INCLUDING* unionized
workers, there is going to be an electoral bloodbath come
November. And we'll deserve it.

It's not like we haven't received fair warning...

Tesha
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rufus dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
70. So let me get this straight
The MA Dems voted for a Repub to send a message to Dems that they didn't like HCR.

So I look at polls out of MA and they are happy with their healthcare so basically they are saying FUCK YOU to everyone else. But then they want me to defend them and what they have?

Not to be offensive but I really don't get the message they are trying to send. If it is as you state, it appears they are saying "I want more or want the rest of you to fail."

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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #70
78. I don't agree with their approach
but in a sense they are paying back the black mail from the Dems (vote for us or the scary GOP gets in boohoooo), with their own black mail (pay attention to our demands or we vote for your opponent booohooo).


As they say, payback is a bitch.
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #70
81. Did you read what I wrote? Maybe you need to go back and read it again?
Their concerns were quite a bit broader than merely the Democrats'
inaction/malaction on healthcare.

But feel free to keep mis-reading Brown's election. In that way, you
can cruise into November completely unclear on what's about to happen.

Tesha
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rufus dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #81
124. read it again
and stand by my post.

I am not mis-reading Brown's election, never made a comment regarding my opinion.

I am still a bit confused. Do you feel the concern is based upon the mandate or the Cadillac tax?
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #124
125. Some of their concern was "The Cadillac Tax".
Much more was the Democrats' lackadaisical approach to
getting *ANYTHING* done.

I don't recall any specific concerns about "the mandate",
but please remember that this was taking place in Massachusetts
where health insurance is already mandated.

But again, many folks stated explicitly that they voted for
Brown to *WAKE THE NATIONAL DEMOCRATS UP* out
of their torpor and to indicate that Union support could no
longer be assured just because the candidate had a "D"
after their name.

Tesha
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #70
92. Coakley was in the pocket of insurance companies. Why the fuck shouldn't they?
Better a little pain now for the Dems- as long as they learn their lesson.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #70
100. These are rank and file members. Not the leadership.
Leadership are taking the brunt of what is happening in DC after pushing to get Obama elected. Rank and file are not seeing the benefit of voting for Obama. They only see what is in the media and what they perceive benefits them.

A big problem is explaining the issues of something like HCR when they have health care. The leadership IMO don't explain the benefit and the result because they don't understand it. HCR is complicated. The rank and file are going to look at what they have now and don't want to lose it. Even though they don't understand fully what they have and more importantly they don't know the cost of their benefit. If someone had did a cost analysis of the their plan under Single Payer or Public Option they might have found that labor union health care benefit costs would go down and they would below the threshold for the tax.

It is like what I heard on the news tonite how Pence is claiming that the voters are against reconciliation. I seriously doubt that most folks understand the process in Congress considering that they have more important things to deal with in their life. And rely on damn assholes providing the news in the media that don't understand it themselves but think they do.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. Both parties know that union membership is approx 7% of workforce
THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT

K&R
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. They should. If that 7% and their families and friends stop
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 01:19 AM by sabrina 1
voting for Democrats they will have an impact on all of us.

Otoh, that is enough of a base to start a new party. The Dems used to be the party of the working class but anyone who still thinks that is the case hasn't been awake for the past several years. This country badly needs a labor party and the Dems no longer are for the working class. It's entirely possible that this could be the beginning of a new party, or a real Democratic Party.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. They still don't give a shit. Their DC service is like an unpaid internship.
Their reall payoff comes when they quit or get evicted from public service and land plush corporate gigs.
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. They wait? Our Senator Harkin and spouse live well
from corporate $$$ already. Who needs to wait?
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #21
35. Good point. A spousal unit can expedite the process quite nicely.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
46. I pray you are right.
It is the 7% Union population that does most of the "get out the vote" work for the Democrats. Maybe "used to"....
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. 12% plus
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 01:44 AM by FreakinDJ
and their spouse who receives those union benefits

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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. And unions are all we have to counter corporate lobbyists
That's it. Fuck that up and it's game over. Unionists are the fountainhead of liberal activism.
Now they're called "Fucking Retards" by Team Obama. You gotta know the brakes are on now!
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. Notice 2nd reply to OP was "Fuck the Unions"
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 02:05 AM by FreakinDJ
and the Dems like to blame the union membership for not coming to the voting booth yet every election cycle there they are with their hand out asking for contributions
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. And they claim they are the "realists"
So far all the magical thinking I've seen has been the side that thinks some *other* voters are going to materialize from some unknown plane of existence.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Oh yeah - the so called moderate or independant.
Of course those people are looking for center LEFT solutions
at least for a while.

Reagan and his unanswered accusations of 'libera'
changed all of that.
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warm regards Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
32. Exactly...and most of them are government workers to boot.
What are they going to do, vote Republican?
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liberalmike27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
51. Down from the mid-thirties at its heyday
Yep, just another reason for all that globalization. Ship all those pesky unions out of the country, or really, into non-existence. Ship all those taxes away once paid to our government, which is a big part of the reason our government is corrupt, because we no longer make anything hardly, except weapons.


I'm not sure if Democrats can keep power. They are paid by the same people, the corporations, yet they are supposed to be the party of the working people, both middle class and poor. But when they get in office, they've got to cow-tow to corporations just like republicans. So, they end up looking like a bunch of hypocrites, writing terrible corporate bills, like the health care bill, and circumventing what we really want.

So, back in the minority we will go, and the democratic base will try to get out from under the steaming pile they dropped atop us.
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pasto76 Donating Member (835 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
96. kind of a low ball number..national average is 12-15%
even then its a small slive of the workforce. Internal factors and a smear campaign from Corporations and idiot right wingers have substantially weakened the positions of Unions in the last generation. Guys in my local still want to act liek we have all the power we had in the 50s (national average 35%) but we dont.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
8. Recommend
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
9. I thought these third way stealth republicans were smart but evil.. but
the DLC faction is kinda stupid regarding human nature and maintaining support.
That surprises me about their actions of late, not the actions themselves.

They are destroying themselves along with what was once our party in less than one term.
Not really very smart at all...Just evil and stupid it would seem.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
12. This really infuriates me. How dare any Democrats diss the Unions?
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. I know it doesn't make sense but neither does countless other moves by this admin!
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
36. Yes...What they don't get in dismissing the Unions is the MANY people who Support Unions
even if they're not IN them!...

The unions may be only 7% of the Country but I bet millions of Baby Boomers had Union Parents and remember WELL how much the union did for their families AND how much "better off" we ALL were when Unions were strong!
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. I'm no longer a union member,
but my good paying union job put me through college. It took me 7 years, but I graduated without any debt, lived in my own apartment & even bought a car. My mother loved to diss the unions, until one day I told her she could shut up with the anti-union talk or I would send my next tuition bill to her.

Recently I was in a grocery store where a young clerk was dissing the union, which evidently is optional to join. I asked her if she had health benefits, vacation pay, sick pay & asked if she got paid overtime when she worked over 40 hours a week. "Of course," she replied smugly. "You can thank unions for that. You wouldn't have any of that if it were up to management!" People are so stupid.

I support unions & always will.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #36
66. exactly! 7% current membership expands greatly
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 07:48 PM by amborin
when family, friends, offspring, and many, many others in the general public who sympathize with and support unionized workers are counted in
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mrmpa Donating Member (707 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #66
99. 5 union members in my family=13 votes
We're getting more pissed every day.
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Ramulux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
13. How can the white house not see this?
I realize the current administration seems to be really bad at picking up on obvious voter discontent especially from within their own party, but do they think the democrats have any chance of existing in this country without the support of labor unions?

From what I understand, union apathy had a lot to do with why we got crushed in 94, and for Obama to now decide "during an election year" to completely piss off union leaders demonstrates an almost comical lack of historical perspective. Who in fucks sake does he think hes helping by pulling this crap?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
38. I stated a few weeks ago that
bipartisanship with this current crop of republicans is for those who don't have the courage to stand for their convictions or for those who don't really hold the convictions they claim. I'm beginning to believe your last sentence is spot on.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #13
23. I think it is their intent to suppress voter turnout
More Republican House and Senate members provides cover for continuing the move to the right.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. i think that's a good guess.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Either that or they are incredibly stupid...and I don't believe they're stupid. nt
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. no, they're not stupid. they went to good schools, you know. or at least expensive ones.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
41. Yes, it must be Door #1 because no, they aren't stupid.
n/t
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stillwaiting Donating Member (591 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
63. There is no doubt in my mind that you are correct. It's intentional.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
80. +10,000!! don't forget , after Obama smeared and jeered the repukes at their winter meeting 2 days
later Papa Bush and Jebbie went to the WH to have a social meeting with Obama..from that day on..I knew what i was feeling all along was dead on..it was all kabbuki theater when he went on the TV cameras and spit venom at the repukes..one does not make a recovery to meet with GHBush two days later for a "social meeting"..that bs doesn't work for me..all the bullshit in the world wouldn't let my brain cells accept that!
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
59.  The white house? THEY SEE IT.
Obama is proposing to adopt four Republican measures in the HCR bill. Now why would he do that if NO Republican will vote for the bill anyway?

Face it, folks, we have been duped.
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Sherman A1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #59
72. Precisely
and this is one union member who has had enough of this BS.

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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #59
85. Exactly!!~..don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining!! eom
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #13
114. Wall Street. Obama is arrogant (I'm sad to note), and thinks $$$ will carry him to victory.
He either was not an observant community activist in Chicago, or he was one picked by the money-men for the fast-track and therefore doesn't know from union guys walking door to door, apartment to apartment, street by street.

And he might very well never again see those union boots on the ground as they were in 2008. It might not be Get Out the Vote; it might be SIT Out the Vote.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:16 AM
Response to Original message
14. Kick
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
15. Nothing to see here...
...Crosby said his members were threatening to vote Republican to stop the tax, since 60 Democratic senators and no Republicans had voted for it. In Massachusetts’ special election they chose empty-suit Republican Scott Brown over a Democrat bound to cement the benefits tax in place.

In a Suffolk University poll conducted a week before the election, union-household voters in Massachusetts reported only 45 percent support for the Democratic candidate; union voters nationally backed Obama by 60 percent in 2008.

According to those on a January 14 conference call with AFL-CIO President Rich Trumka, Massachusetts state fed President Bobby Haynes exploded in anger, blaming top union leaders for a terrible health care bill and for losing the Massachusetts election—and thus the Dems’ 60th Senate seat, needed to ensure the health care bill’s passage (and the rest of labor’s agenda, labor law and immigration reform).


La la la can't hear you la la la...

:(


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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
18. The only thing he was adamant about was the tax on these members plans.
When he specifically campaigned against it too. God that makes me ill. Puke.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. Infuriating and nauseating
Didn't break a sweat for the public option but dug his heels in on this middle class tax increase.
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 04:45 AM
Response to Original message
20. Disgusting the way loyal supporters are treated
verses the way the corporations etc are by this administration. x(
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. Ah, but we served our purpose
Showed up to get him elected. Now the corporate friendly policies are being counted on to raise enough campaign cash to counter the discontent of the voters on the left.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:16 AM
Response to Original message
29. I've gotten to the point that I don't understand Obama. He was
President AWOL during the health care debate. He allowed the Blanche Lincolns of the party to attack health care and his other programs making him look weak, unable to control his party.

Then, Blanche gets a primary opponent who supports health care, and Obama, the most cautious of presidents unable to take a firm stand, throws his weigh behind Blanche instead of bowing out of the primary fray as he should have.

Obama's "base" has stepped up to back Halter, and oppose Obama's pick as head of the party, Blanche Lincoln.

Who is advising Obama?
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. I'm pretty convinced Feingold had it right when he said the HCR bill the Senate passed is the bill
the President wanted all along.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
86. ding ding ding..you win the prize!!! eom
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. something's going on here, but we don't know what it is, do we, mr. general public....
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Whatever It Is, We Don't Like It
Rape by any other name...
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #29
77. You didn't notice Obama on TV once in a while?
Because a lot of people were saying it was too much.
Obama needs Lincoln's vote to get health care. Alienating her before the vote now by backing her primary opponent would be fucking moronic.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #77
103. You don't back either democrat, you stay out of it entirely. And he
doesn't seem to have a problem with staying out of things entirely.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
39. Obama's betrayal of the unions is going to cost him.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #39
60. He doesn't care.
If that isn't painfully obvious by now it never will be.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #60
110. Unfortunately true. All that really seems to motivate him--never mind his political theatrics--
is pleasing the money men.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
40. Did they misread him as meaning he wouldn't tax benefits when he said he wouldn't tax benefits?
Whose fault is THAT? Seems to me, if they thought he actually MEANT it when he said he wouldn't tax benefits, they were delusional. :sarcasm:
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Tailormyst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
42. I wrote the President today
I informed him that his anti-labor, pro- corporation stances including his latest target, TEACHERS, cost him my vote. I will not vote for him again unless HE makes changes in a positive direction. THEN maybe I will fill in the little circle by his name.

I am pitchfork/torch angry!
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
43. But I heard on Hannity that Obama is a Soshalist controlled by Unions.
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skyounkin Donating Member (722 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. I would love a socialist president
Cause we sure don't have one.
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #47
75. Ain't that the truth. n/t
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
44. where's the spinners?
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MissDeeds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #44
57. Probably dead from overwork n/t
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #44
62. Harrassing teachers.
They're busy today.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #62
88. you've got that right..they are in overdrive attacking teachers! and the teacher unions! eom
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 09:50 PM by flyarm
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #62
93. +1
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kctim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
45. Thank you for posting this info
The few union people I know, just 7 or 8, are all Republicans and I had not heard this yet.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
48. Card check? Card check anyone?
Card check?

This admin has totally failed Unions.
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
49. The Democrats are merely the asshole
of the Money Party. The Republicans are the rest of it.
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Omaha Steve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
50. Altogether labor spent over $500 million on Dems in 08
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 05:25 PM by Omaha Steve

My opinion as of today is we have not had a labor friendly person in the white house since President James Carter.

Many who backed Obama that I know are livid about several labor related items. The problem is, if you look back at history you will see when an incumbent got a serious challenge in his own party primary, he lost.

I'm tired after only a year of this bipartisanship crap. Do like W and ride roughshod over them. Take no prisoners.

OS

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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
52. The idea of
"we won't whack you with this ugly stick until 2018" just didn't sell, did it?

The reason HCR is dead: The President and the Democratic leadership in Congress is now stuck with the Senate bill, instead of having the much more palatable House bill to rally the American people around.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
53. Past time to throw ALL the corporatists out of the Party
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
54. It's time to face reality.
The country is already lost.

Democrats = Republicans, almost. If the Democratic Party is gone and won't represent the will of the electorate what is left of our democracy?

That ol' mission that Bush spoke of, you know the one in "Mission Accomplished", it really was accomplished. Man, they fucking destroyed this country.
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SlingBlade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
55. K & R
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invictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
56. K&R
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
58. Obviously racists who are not getting fucked in the ass by the economy and the administration
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icee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
61. I would bet 70:30 Democrats will lose many seats in November
and Obama will be a one-termer.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Maybe then we can have that Iran War
they have been clamoring for for years. That will take care of deficit spending.
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icee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #64
71. I don't know... I'm of the belief that if that war was not waged by
December 2008, it would not be waged at all--at least by the US. Also, I think if the Repubs try to wage a war against Iran or support Israel doing that, that would cost the Repubs the 2014 election. Course, if we are in the middle of a deflationary depression in 2012, I'm not sure what will happen. Would a war pull us out of it? Or would it bury us more? Your point is a good one, though.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
65. And this was before the RI teachers. Guess Holder/Fredo will have to prosecute some union
officials in order to keep the labor vote in line for 2012. I wonder when we will get the first Grand Jury leak?
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havbrush Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
67. Anger at Dems
After voting Democratic all my life, I'm beginning to think the two parties are just about indistinguishable. They play good cop/bad cop on us with the Dems playing the role of being on the side of the people and rethugs openly letting you know they don't give a f__k about people, just money and power. Then they both end up screwing us.
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GreenTea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
68. I stand always, unmovable with the unions - Whether I'm a member or not.
Presently I'm not...and if I never am again, I will always support union and it's workers!
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #68
115. I'm with ya, GreenTea!!
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
69. Today I called the AFL-CIO and asked them to consider starting a Labor Party in the US.
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Ildem09 Donating Member (472 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
73. If you don't support Labor GTFO of the Democratic party
I can't decide if my more proud of my homosexuality or my union membership. either way Labor is the Democratic party
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southernyankeebelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
74. Welcome to the club unions. So you think you would do much better
with the republicans? I doubt it. The republicans have done everything in their power to destroy unions yet some of you fools keep voting for the republicans over and over. Can't you see they are your enemy? This healthcare bill isn't popular with many people. So lets stop crying and try to support this president.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
76. Understand this..Just because some Union leaders made a deal with Obama does not mean Rank and File
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 09:04 PM by flyarm
members are happy with those deals..and those leaders will face their own members in union elections, and i feel that will be ugly for many who went along to get along..at the cost of Union members health care and taxes on that care..no matter what the start date is.

I have belonged to a Union since I was 19 years old..I am now 58 and took early retirement..

I am not happy at all..My union was not asked to be in on that deal...in fact we were not asked at all..nor were the retirees...and many other union leaders were not asked to be in that meeting..representing millions of union members nationwide.

Trumka does not speak for me, nor my union.
It is not my benefits I worry about ..it is the people i worked with ..the young moms and dads..the middle income people who gave up so much for their health benefits..and In my industry they don't even have a choice to take the health care package or not..it is mandatory ..because it is such a high risk job..

This is unconscionable.

I know that..i worked too long , and went through too many contracts and work stoppages and threats ..and I will be one union member who will sit home in November..and my state has a Governor and senate seat that are open..and i say.... Tough Shit! No one will see my money, nor my volunteer work, nor one minute of my time or support.

Because that is what was said to workers throughout this nation by Team Obama and this congress..they told us ..tough shit.

well.......We will see who's shit means more in November!
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #76
83. +1000 organized labor had to fight to get decent benefits, and many, many times forfeited wages
in order to do so

it is so rotten and cruel what is happening now
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
79. No bill is better than this bill?
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 09:28 PM by Juche
Really? There are times I disagree with labor and this is one of them. Labor is supposed to work for generalized progressive policies. On this issue they are only out for themselves (as long as their benefits aren't taxed, they don't care).

Many of us who support labor need health insurance reform because of pre-existing conditions and rescissions. If labor doesn't give a damn about us (because they are going to be mildly taxed), they should expect help from us either.

Buffenbarger is a dick.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. please read what the senate bill is all about:
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 10:25 PM by amborin
unions *are* fighting for generalized progressive values, they always have!

it's thanks to unions that we have an 8hr day, weekend off, sick leave, lunch break, or even a chance at decent wages and benefits; i'm only mentioning a few things unions have won for ALL WORKERS

this proposed HCR bill will HARM the middle class; the unions were correctly against it; it's a sham a huge giveaway to big health insurance corporations, at the expense of the middle class.


please read here what the senate bill will do:

http://files.cwa-union.org/healthcarevoices/091217_CWAExciseTaxReport.pdf


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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #79
89. Labor has been fighting for you forever..Do you work a 40 hour week? do you have a pension or labor
Edited on Wed Mar-03-10 10:17 PM by flyarm
rights or OSHA..or any benefits at work? If you do, you can thank labor unions!

Maybe you don't understand what is in this bill..it is shit..in fact it is shit on a shingle..and you will see little to nothing compared to AHIP and Big Pharma and the Hospital conglomerates.

The average american will see nothing but getting fucked with this bill!

Go read it..then tell me how union members haven't been trying to save you from this piece of shit bill!
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #89
94. Many of us can't get reliable health care w/o this bill
This is a plutocratic bill, but for many of us it is better than nothing.

And I agree, labor has been fighting for people for generations, which is why I'm a big labor supporter and why I'm disappointed that some labor leaders want to throw the entire bill away merely because they'd see a tax increase.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. You won't get it with this bill! ..go read the damn bill and you will see what you will not be
getting!
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #95
101. How not
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 02:54 AM by Juche
You say 'read the bill', but I'm sure you haven't read all 2000 pages of it either. Tell me what I'm missing.




Reduce the deficit by $800-900 billion over the next 20 years, probably bigger reductions in private spending over the same time period

More regulations to stop pre-existing condition bans and abuses of rescission

Better preventative care

Expansion of medicaid

Efforts to weed out waste and abuse in medicare

Expansion of health care to cover almost everyone, cementing in public consciousness the idea that health care is a 'right' not a 'privilege' which may make further reforms in 5-10 years easier.

Federal subsidies

Exchanges that pool groups

Limits on annual expenses for consumers as well as abolition of lifetime maximums

Requiring health companies spend 85%+ of income on medical care and not overhead




Why should I turn that down? The idea that I should give that up because there isn't a public option or because workers (which I am one) might have to pay some taxes isn't enough.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #94
104. And you aren't going to get reliable care with it, either n/t
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #104
118. Based on what
The impression I'm getting is because this bill fails the labor/progressive purity test some people think it should be scrapped. It isn't, it is better than nothing.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #118
120. take recissions, as one example, of where the bill fails;
the bill leaves enforcement up to the states; but the states are powerless against the big insurers.

take the state of California: it tried to sue Anthem Blue Cross for many cases of recission; but it had to drop its lawsuits b/c Anthem was able to vastly out-spend the state and had an army of legal defenders, which the state did not.

And, insurers can drop/rescind coverage for "fraud." "Fraud" is loosely defined, to suit the corporation. So this bill does NOT address those issues at all.

If you read the critique of the bill, you'd see that your hopes for it will be sadly dashed.

Are you really falling for the hollow promises of politicians?
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #118
122. Bsed on the fact that the "coverage" offered is of the shittiest possible variety
If you have ongoing expenses, being on the hook for 40% of them in addition to being forced to pay for shitty "insurance," which will be 3 to 5 times as expensive if you are over 50. The useless parasites providing the inadequate products are under no obligation whatsoever to honor any claims.
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #122
123. Wouldn't the reconciliation bill address some of those issues
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
82. It's a damned good thing,
because unions had damned well better band together, or we're all going down the damned drain at this point.

I've never seen Democrats so blatantly work against labor.

Damn.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
87. It's unbelievable in Detroit.
Looks like we're gonna get stuck with a puke guvner come Fall.

As for the Democratic presidential primary in '12 -- the early fav's Kucinich. Again.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
90. Well deserved anger.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
91. Things that would make smart people go "hmmmmm".
You would think that they would ask themselves why. Of course they would have to care about union members before they would do that.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
97. The problem is the public unions' stance is unrealistic
Governments everywhere are running out of money, public salaries can't be increasing and benefits increasing in this environment. There simply is no money for it. The people who would normally be paying the money for these things are unemployed, broke, and being foreclosed upon. These public sector unions have done themselves and the rest of us a great disservice in setting up their interests directly opposing that of the people that public servants exist to serve.

There is a serious disconnect between the expectations of public sector unions and the reality of what is happening in the economy.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. NOOO the problem is Obama lied...he bold faced lied to the unions! eom
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #97
102. Oh jesus, blame the poor bastard making a buck more than the next guy
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 02:58 AM by upi402
and ignore the thieves running out of your local bank with armloads of your savings. for fucksake. they looted our treasury and sunk us in debt and bailed out the shitsacks that did it and they got bonuses for it all.

and you're worried that unions may not be market-efficient????

meh
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #97
106. You are blaming the wong people for this disaster. n/t
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #106
109. It's not a matter of blame it's a matter of math
Public sector numbers, salaries, and benefits cannot continue to rise in an environment where the tax base that supports those benefits is shrinking. Everyone has to participate in the belt-tightening era that is upon us. Public sector workers already do much better than their private sector counterparts, there is no legitimate complaint for them to bring here.

By fighting the process they make it so people resent them, without gaining any actual benefit (the money's not there, demands for increases simply cannot be satisfied).
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #109
111. You sound like Race to the Bottom should be our goal.
The fact of the matter is that when the American workers deserted the unions primarily because they could get what the unions had obtained without paying dues and collaborated in their economic destruction. The toasters, coffee pots and sewing machines are still being made, just not by Americans. The workers who bought the management's line of bull shit that they would be well taken care of and unions were their enemy. Throw in a big helping of Free Trade and tariffs are bad and they woke up too late to see their jobs out-sourced, pensions cut and heath care canceled. Maybe they will wake up and realize that the Democratic Party has lost its way and sold them out and its time to form a new party.
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #111
112. Try and focus, gramps
These are public sector unions we are talking about, not any of the people whose jobs got shipped overseas. Private sector unions are a completely different animal. Why? Because they are opposed to private interests, not the public interest. Being opposed to the public interest and being a public servant are contradictory positions to be in.

Right now, at this very point in time, public sector unions comprise more than half of all the unionized labor in the US. Pursuing the more-benefits-and-damn-the-torpedoes strategy severely risks that the general public will see their own interests directly opposed to that of unions in general (and tarnishing the reputation of private sector unions whose fault this situation isn't).
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #112
117. Whatever you say, sonny.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #109
119. dislike unions and deny global climate change, the two often go together....
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #119
121. I don't dislike unions at all
Leave your global warming cult out of this.

I'm a very strong supporter of private sector unions.

These public sector unions are betraying the whole union movement, unionization was never about sucking money out of the government, it is about fair wages and working conditions for employees of private companies.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:21 AM
Original message
Do you have ANY CLUE how many BILLIONAIRES exist here and in the world? ANY CLUE? TAX THE BASTARDS.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #97
116. Too bad there's no guillotines.
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 10:22 AM by WinkyDink
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
105. It is time to form a United Workers of America Party
The Democratic Party has abandon the workers. Its time to realize that if the workers want a fair deal then they are going to have to forge an alliance with the existing unions to form a party that is dedicated to representing their interest. It is becoming undeniably clear that there is little hope for representation by the Democratic politicians. Far too many have sold out to corporate interest. What will it take for American workers to realize that they don't have any representation when they were promised real change in Washington and are being sold out. We have been sold out to appease the insurance companies. It would have taken someone with real guts to challenge them and drive these rip-off bastards out of business.

Not everything is wrong about this administration, but not enough is right in regard to workers welfare. The totally unacceptable health care reform should be enough to convince American workers that they had better look for new leadership. The one that we put our faith in is a dud.
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ellie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
107. Really?
I would think Clinton and his NAFTA would have pissed off the unions. I know my glassworker dad was incredibly upset about it.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
108. They are 100% right. Do NOT ever take anything on "good faith."
KILL THIS BILL because it will be only the shitty SENATE VERSION in the end.

Shame on the corporate democrats for selling this Piece of Shit as something that can be "improved upon."

It won't happen. :grr:
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
113. Side-point: This should be must-reading for any "what good are unions?" morons. Go ahead; PAY TAX.
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