Would our school system be better overall if we took the problem kids out of the system?

[dkf]

I keep hearing teachers say this is the reason they can't succeed along with students don't want to learn and parents who don't care. Is the only solution that teachers can control to kick out non performers?

I honestly don't get what these complaints are suggesting in terms of solutions. Or is the argument that it is not solvable and they should not be held responsible in any way?

And seriously there is no money as people get cut off from truly critical life and death support so a raise to teach extra hours is not going to happen.

[leftofcool]

1. No but what would be nice is to have alternative schools

in every city. Some already have them and they are great for kids with behavior problems or just kids who don't want to learn via normal chanels/academics. If you have some teenage boys who don't give a rats ass about math, English or history but the love auto mechanics, send them to a school where they can tear down an old car and rebuild it. Just an example of what could be done.

[Echo In Light]

6. Fortunately - and oddly - in our lil neck o the woods there is a decent alt school

... which after I dropped out of reg high school, I did use for awhile....but since I was already working a 3rd shift job, and also playing drums in metal bar bands, it didn't last long. It is a good school though that benefits a lot of troubled kids still today.

[backscatter712]

27. Alternative schools work.

There are some good ones in my area.

[leftofcool]

33. Yes, the do indeed work. Wish there were more of them.

[knitter4democracy]

93. I teach at one and do so with pride.

I love my students. We are able to bend the rules a bit, help kids out, and work very hard to create a good atmosphere for them. The usual school system doesn't work for everyone.

[NM_hemilover]

2. Is this another abortion thread ?

[liberal_at_heart]

3. Our public school are too big, too many kids, not enough teachers

At risk kids will only get the help they need in smaller class sizes. I've heard someone say that a solution as easy as taking ten or twenty minutes out of every class day to ask the kids how they are doing can improve kids lives and their academic performance. Kids need to know someone cares about them, not to be written off. Children should never be written off. When we write them off we fail them. It is we who fail not them. My husband had pretty much been written off. The principle at his public high school told him he would never amount to anything. He was sent to an alternative high school. The class sizes were smaller and the teachers were able to give the at risk students more attention. My husband graduated high school and is now a very successful network engineer at a telecom company.

[dkf]

10. Maybe it is true that not all kids can go through the system as it is and do well.

Why is this not a focus of education?

I was talking to someone who was sending their daughter to a school that identified a teachers strengths and weaknesses in terms of teaching methods and matched them to the way the kids learn. She says she pays an arm and a leg for this school but why wouldn't it also work in public schools? Maybe we are too interested in treating kids the same when we should be treating them differently.

[leftofcool]

14. Exactly!

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. Teachers can't kick out kids

Administrators do that.

And to answer your question, no we shouldn't kick them out. We should have alternative schools for them.

[MicaelS]

5. Alternative schools sound great...

If you were making all the rules for the "alternative school kids" What would they be?

[liberal_at_heart]

8. My husband loved his alternative school

I believe the kids could be arrested if they did anything illegal but they got to learn at their own pace and the teachers were very supportive. My husband's teacher would go out and get him books on tape for his English class. He has always had problems with his sight and most of his public school teachers just wrote him off and never helped him. They just assumed he was a problem kid. The teachers at the alternative school saw past the problems and got to know the kids and found out what their interests and strengths were.

[leftofcool]

12. I loved teaching at the alternative school

some of the best students I ever had were there. I have also taught the gifted ones but I will take the "C" average, "problem" kid any day of the week.

[dkf]

20. Yeah I bet it is more personally rewarding to see a turnaround

And know you are making a difference.

That must be cool indeed

[leftofcool]

23. Very much so!

[tonysam]

31. "Gifted" kids are probably the hardest to teach

n/t

[leftofcool]

34. Not so much harder to teach as harder to control

They get bored much quicker and with not as much to do/learn, they get out of control much more quickly than a student who has to struggle.

[BolivarianHero]

50. I was lucky I guess...

When I was a wee lad, I could do entire chapters of our math book in an hour, and the teacher was more than happy to led be spend the remaining time reading the class room's dozens of novels, papers, and picture books depending on my mood.

[MicaelS]

38. Why? n/t

[liberal_at_heart]

39. Thank you for helping at risk students! If it weren't for teachers such as yourself

my husband probably wouldn't be as successful as he is today.

[leftofcool]

9. I taught at risk students at an alternative school

my last five years of teaching. Most of the rules are the same as a regular public school/high school but some rules are more "breakable." Example: the dress code. Had one student wear a Marilyn Manson T-shirt to school that said "I am the God of Fuck." That would have been grounds for being sent home, maybe even a 3 day suspension at a regular school. We ignored such things at the alternative school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. Small class sizes, teachers trained to meet the needs of the kids, security and plenty of

administrators, a strict code of conduct, mandatory parent involvement...

To name a few things :)

[MicaelS]

36. Sounds good, except the mandatory parent involvement part

As many single parents as there are today, with many single parents working TWO jobs, with two parent households working long hours just to keep their heads above water, people simply do not, and would not have the time to involve themselves at the level you would probably demand. The only ones who could / would do so would be the wealthy parents.

[Bunny]

47. I agree. There are LOTS of parents who simply do not

have the time to devote to this. Parents should foster an atmosphere of learning in the home, but mandating that they participate in school activities, meetings, PTO groups, and several hours of homework each night is completely ridiculous.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starry Messenger]

61. What's left over then?

There are families that are struggling in our district but they make time to support their kids' school activities. :shrug:

[Bunny]

65. When that support is voluntary, fine.

Mandating it, as has been suggested in this thread and others, is ridiculous. As much as people may want to ignore it, sometimes keeping a roof over your head, the lights on, and food on the table is all that is humanly possible. It's a matter of prioritizing on the scale of needs, with basic survival on top, and assisting in your child's education further down, in whatever form you are able to manage.

But according to some people, if you're unlucky enough to be poor and struggling, and working two or three part-time jobs just to stay afloat, and don't have an additional ten hours/week for mandatory homework, you should have never had those kids in the first place. :eyes: That's where whatever argument they think they have goes right over the cliff.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. Too late. It's already mandatory in some districts.

And it's working.

Some charter schools make parents sign a contract agreeing to a minimum amount of participation.

It's not at all uncommon for private schools and some public school districts to mandate parents raise a certain amount of money every year to support school fund raising.

Many cities have truancy laws that hold parents accountable when kids don't come to school. Child neglect laws provide protection for children whose parents allow chronic truancy. I know of several schools who have reported parents when their children are chronically tardy.

So get used to it. Parent accountability is already here.

I have also spent 3 decades teaching kids whose parents are struggling to survive, many working more than one job. And the majority of them manage to be involved and active parents. It's not the least bit impossible or unreasonable.

[Bunny]

71. So you want to include truancy and tardiness in the argument?

That's a no-brainer. Of course that's been the law, for approximately forever. That's not what I'm referring to, and I'm pretty sure you know that.

My kids went to a private elementary school - I'm well aware of the mandatory fund raising requirement, along with parental involvement requirements. And for a private school, that's fine. I can choose to do those things, or not. But it will be a cold day in hell when I'll comply with those mandatory requirements at their public school.

Get used to it. Teacher accountablility is here, too. And it sounds like it's going to stay.

[proud2BlibKansan]

74. I have stated repeatedly for years here on DU that I support teacher accountability

Nice try. No cigar.

[mzteris]

88. whoa!

We agree TWICE in ONE THREAD?

:wow:

[Starry Messenger]

70. Well I know some people end up with kids by accident

I couldn't afford to have kids so I didn't have them. But if someone did have kids on purpose, I don't see the sense in that person saying they had a right to have kids but then not participate in their schooling to the greatest extent that they can. Maybe we're talking about two different things here.

[Bunny]

73. We are talking about two different things.

I think parents should participate in their kids schooling 'to the greatest extent they can.', as you said. It's when that participation becomes mandatory that I have to disagree.

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. It's a common part of a court ruling when a kid is involved in the juvenile justice system

This discussion is about alternative schools. Quite often alternative schools have a significant number of kids who are involved (for a variety of reasons) in juvenile justice or family court. And courts mandating parental involvement at school is a common theme. I've been asked to sign more than a few papers documenting that involvement.

[Starry Messenger]

77. Alternative schools have a specific definition

Most of them are geared for intervention for "at-risk" students. Parent involvement, like proud stated, is usually legally mandated as part of the intervention. The courts are in charge of that.

[surrealAmerican]

48. ... not to mention that some kids have parents who are disfunctional.

How much do we need to punish a kid for his/her parent's shortcomings?

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. Asking a parent to care enough to be involved in their child's education is a punishment?

LOL

[surrealAmerican]

80. It is if the child is rejected from an otherwise appropriate ...

... program because their parent is inadequate. Even kids with bad parents need good educations.

[proud2BlibKansan]

82. And that happens when?

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. Everyone has a cell phone nowadays

I have regular phone conferences with parents. And every one of my parents has my cell phone number.

There is also the Family and Medical Leave Act which allows parents to take time off from work for school functions.

A parent's most important job is being a parent. If they can't make time for their kids, they are lousy parents. And if your child is in an alternative school, your involvement as a parent is critical.

[MicaelS]

57. I have to admit, you have very good points

And the idea of cell phone conferences never even crossed my mind. And I forgot that FMLA allows time for school functions. Truly, I think many parents are simply too tired, and too stressed out to worry about their kid's performance in school unless they are failing, or unless the kid is a star athlete.

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. For 15 years I worked for a principal who mandated 100% of parents attend conferences

Forced teachers to be creative. We knocked on doors and visited work places. And we always got that 100% :)

[knitter4democracy]

129. What if they don't have parents?

Where I teach, a lot of our students are living on their own already, some because both parents have died.

[TheMadMonk]

63. Well you've just cofirmed something I've long suspected.

You too are an elitist. You just have a different idea of where the cutoff point is.

What the law allows in theory has very little to nothing to do with real life and arsehole employers. Particularly for the lowest income earners. An employer might not sack somone for taking time off for their kids, but they damned well will make sure they get fewer and/or more awkward shifts, and will be on the look out for any excuse at all to let them go. And plenty are vindictive enough to use their social network to make it dificult to find employment elsewhere in the same or related industries.

And while I agree that a parent's most important job is their kids, and that far too many don't act that way. However, there is ideal and reality and to brand all parents who can't conform to your schedule says more about you than it does about them. Not being able to keep a roof over their (and their kid's) heads and food on the table is a greater neglect.


If you want to point the finger, blame the destruction of the extended family and the creation of that ludicrous fiction the nuclear family that puts all the burden of childrearing on only one or two people.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. You are going to have to show me where I said parents have to conform to my schedule

I go out of my way to make myself available to parents. No one is forcing me to give them my cell phone number or to knock on their doors when I could be out doing some elitist shopping.

Elitist. That's rich. :rofl:

[TheMadMonk]

76. So 4 am is fine by you? Did you read all the way to the bottom?

Yes some parents are total arseholes. However, they are not the cause of the greater problem, however much they contribute to the immediate. Look to the society and social attitudes that created them and which has actively (and I must say with considerble malice) deprived them of virtually every single support network that was available in the past, and has flatly refused to offer anything to replace it, as more enlightened countries have done.

Nowhere else in the so called civilised world are people forced to work 16 hour days just to provide bare minimum shelter and sustenance to their family. Nor be driven to penury and beyond because of simple illness or misfortume. Your entire society is built around the premis that the only people who matter are those who have the means to buy, display, consume and discard fucking expensive valuless crap and great big hearty fuck you to those who can't keep up.

I call you elitist because you demand that parents somehow MAKE IT HAPPEN, when their entire nation is lined up against them to damned well ensure that IT doesn't.

[proud2BlibKansan]

78. Yes 4 am is fine

I am usually up by then. Posting on DU many mornings. :)

Being a parent is the most important job you will ever have. So yes, I think asking parents to come to school twice a year for a conference or call the teacher to check up on their child is not the least bit unreasonable. The vast majority of parents I have worked with have done so. It's not at all impossible, in spite of anyone lining up to make all of our lives difficult.

[knitter4democracy]

99. What if they don't have parents?

That's not a glib question--many kids in the alternative high school where I teach live on their own and don't have parents. We had one drop out at the semester when she found out the house her parents left her in their will actually was owned by another relative who booted her out. We tried to help her get into another place to live, but in order to afford it, she has to work full time.

We deal with their social workers, their case workers, their foster parents (that's a horrifying system much of the time), their therapists and group leaders, and other family members a lot of the time. We have many who are living on their own or are homeless, too. They are amazing kids, and I love them dearly, but I don't think you understand the scope of the problem.

[XemaSab]

140. My mom was a single parent working swing shift

and she was VERY involved.

Especially in the days of e-mail and cell phones, there's no reason for parents not to be involved in their kid's education.

[mzteris]

87. that should be EVERY school! n/t

[knitter4democracy]

95. 84% of our students have lost one or both parents.

That's a lot of the reason why they're in our alt.ed. high school where I teach.

[pipi_k]

7. Well, it would be great to have alternative schools for the problem kids, but..

People are pissy enough as it is about the regular schools.

How do we get any kind of support for alternative schools and the personnel to run them?

[leftofcool]

11. Not likely that we will but wouldn't it be nice?

[stray cat]

17. There are alternative schools already and have been for 40 years

[dkf]

24. Are all dropouts given the opportunity to go this route?

[knitter4democracy]

102. Yes. We take them if we have the spot.

We have a six page waiting list right now, and our board and principal (we're a charter run by the local school district) are looking at how to expand.

[leftofcool]

25. Not enough of them.

[liberal_at_heart]

13. That is a very good question

We live in a society that would rather lock up criminals than try to prevent crime. Same goes for schools. People would rather just kick the at risk kids out to make the state scores look better than actually help the at risk kids.

[Echo In Light]

18. +1

[knitter4democracy]

103. Not all of us. Alternative high schools are out there.

I teach at one, and I love it there.

[dkf]

16. Obama wants to give out grants to improve education.

If he was looking for true solutions he ought to fund more pilot programs.

[knitter4democracy]

101. We're out there. Don't worry.

My writing coach job at our alternative high school was funded by a state grant, and I'm waiting in the wings for one of the English jobs. I love it there, even though the other half of the day I'm teaching honors students at the Catholic high school. Give me a choice, and I'd be at the alternative school, hands down.

[stray cat]

15. Like the 85% of the children who can't do basic math in some schools

or only the ones who can't learn or just the ones who cause severe disruptions

[Hannah Bell]

158. how about if we just took out all the *plants*?

[notadmblnd]

19. Some people see all kids as a problem

I think being a teacher is a noble calling. However, I also think that there are many people out there that should not be in the profession. You should not teach children if you hate them to begin with and I see way too many teachers that appear to hate kids.

I don't believe for one minute that there are children out there that don't want to learn, yes, a teacher may have to try different techniques to find out what will work for a particular child. But children are little sponges and pick up much more than adults give them credit for.

I think we all have to remember that as teachers, we are the adults. You cannot hold a child responsible for you own failings and just kicking kids out of school r that a teacher sees as a problem and can't guide, is a poor excuse for a poor teacher.

Those teachers would be better off working for a corporation, or in another adult setting.

[pipi_k]

32. Teachers...a bittersweet story

Both of my in-laws were teachers for many years. My FIL was a coach/Phys Ed teacher in a High School and my MIL taught 3rd and 4th grades.

In the month before my MIL died at my home back in 2005, she was getting various pain meds. Her bed was in the living room, which was curtained off from the rest of the house for privacy. Often, at night, we would hear her mumbling and talking in her sleep from behind her curtain.

What was she saying?

She was "teaching school". Reliving in her dreams and re-enacting her teaching days...mostly doing math with "her" kids.

Every night until she went into a coma and could no longer speak.

I thought it was interesting that her last month on earth would involve reliving her teaching days.

She must have truly loved her job.

[XemaSab]

144. I went to a school in the 'hood for a year

and what I saw there were well-meaning teachers who liked kids, but couldn't teach at the assigned grade level and couldn't control the class.

If you're a sixth grade teacher in a school where there are fights breaking out and where half the kids show up in your classroom totally illiterate, what are you supposed to do?

[FarCenter]

21. It would be good to eliminate kindergarten and pre school

That way, the kid is old enough to understand that first grade in school is for learning, that school has nothing to do with play and fun and family-like activities, and that the teacher is god and must be obeyed at all times.

[tonysam]

30. That's not going to happen--ever.

The trend is now to do like what Detroit's superintendent is trying to do and that's have READING TUTORS for four-year-olds--completely and totally inappropriate--and fast tracking kids on shoving pre-algebra down their throats before they leave elementary school, thus creating MORE special education kids who can't handle inappropriate curriculum and end up dropping out or being pushed out of high school.

[Fire1]

60. BTW, Did you know he got a 81K raise?? Not from public

funding but "private" funding! Granholm has "no problem with it!"
http://detroitnews.com/article/20100303/SCHOOLS/3030350/

[Hannah Bell]

84. From the charter-school-promoting Broad Foundation. They plant their agents in districts

& fund them, too.

[Fire1]

96. Exactly. n/t

[CBR]

46. What about the teachers in those grades? Wouldn't they lose

their jobs?

[FarCenter]

79. As teachers, yes -- but as day care workers, maybe not

Since the parents of the kindergarten and pre-school kids often work, there is a definite market for day-care. Day care should provide a good family environment for group and individual play activities, develop social skills and good behavior, and incidentially do some basic preparation for school. But it should not focus on academics. It should essentially provide the same nurturing environment as a good home run by a caring mother and father.

There should be a clean break at age 6 or 7 between day care and school, where the teacher demands continuous, dedicated attention to the learning tasks.

[Igel]

64. Nuh-uh.

Here's one problem--a serious one--in a nutshell. It's a rather big nut. :-)

Kids from families with educated adults, adults who are culturally predisposed to really show that they value education and learning, or even (statistically, at least) middle-class and above-middle-class families learn when they're 5 and 6. Their vocabularies are bigger and their grammar is simpler. They are more aware of the sounds that they're making. They've been exposed to books and to reading and have models to emulate. Some sort out reading before they start school. Parents otherwise show their kids a lot of stuff. They are fairly well prepared for the levels of classroom discipline that the educational system assumes.

This continues through school. These kids, come summer break, do educational things on their own and because their parents make a point of it. They usually read more, even if it's not required. If they don't read, they build, or garden, or engage in activities that foster learning. They, statistically speaking, on the first day of a new grade score *higher* on tests (whether standardized or task-based) than they did on the last day of the previous grade, in some studies by as high as 0.3 of a grade--nearly 3 months' of class time.

Kids from other kinds of families, statistically speaking (you can find exceptions all over) are much less motivated to read. Their vocabularies are smaller and their grammar is simpler. They're less aware of the structure of their first language and have fewer models to emulate. They're typically not prepared for classroom discipline. This also continues through school. They read less during summer break, even if reading is required. They'll engage in sports and socializing, but with a much lower educational content; their parents don't or can't get them involved in educational activities. In some studies they show up having lost 0.2 or 0.3 of a grade level. So not only do they start behind where they stopped, they have to review and relearn: Taking class time for this is bad for the kids who kept up, not to mention those who progressed. So instead of 9 months' classtime focused on primarily new material, such kids effectively have only about 6-7 months' of new material. It's easy to be "gifted" in such a system--just don't fall back during summer. "Gifted" becomes a combination of what other systems would term average, as well as including truly gifted students.

This doesn't just apply to English language learners. Or even primarily to them: ELLs with kids in the first category, even if they start school a few years into the program, do much better than kids with English as their first language but the "disadvantaged" family background. "Disadvantaged" is a horrible word because while there's a correlation with income, there are a lot of counterexamples because it's not income per se that's at issue.

Early intervention programs make up some of the difference in providing classroom culture, language skills, facts and background. Take away pre-K through 1st grade, and you'll have kids from advantaged families showing up with even larger skill sets, and much of what would have been taught to disadvantaged kids still wouldn't have been taught those skills. In other words, the hole that the kids from disadvantaged families start out in will be deeper.

Still, restructuring classroom hours in the early grades is probably good, especially for boys (on average).

[FarCenter]

81. The purpose of schools is to educate, not to achieve social equality

The skills that young mothers have for rearing their pre-school children are usually acquired from their mothers, aunts, and peers. These vary widely depending primarily upon the social norms of the kin group and peer group, although they also are influnced to a degree by economic resources.

Since child rearing skills and motivation among parents vary so widely, it is unrealistic to assume that children entering first grade are similar in their development of self-discipline, respect for authority, willingness to learn, and preparatory skills.

Consequently, the children must be segregated in to similarly disposed groups, educated according to their abilities, and promoted according to their progress.

Pooling the children together simply causes conflict between them, holds back those more disciplined and able to learn, and achieves poor overall results.

[mrmpa]

116. Absolutely!!!

Wonderfully put.

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. No way

Too many kids come to kindergarten grossly unprepared for school. Many have never even held a pencil. They don't know basic colors not to mention the alphabet. We also have kids who come every year not knowing their name. Seriously.

If we are going to be held accountable for academic progress beginning in 3rd grade, kindergarten and pre-school are a critical part of the process.

[JerseygirlCT]

132. You're being sarcastic, yes?

I think the number one job of teachers is to foster a student's curiosity and love of learning. If they have that, they'll do well.

Stomping on that, setting school and play up as opposites, with school playing the antagonist's role... recipe for disaster, IMHO.

[tonysam]

22. You can't take them out. Period.

That's the big difference between public and private schools.

Alternative public schools DO exist such as high schools for students who aren't cutting it in high school.

[leftofcool]

29. But, there are not enough of them

[mzteris]

90. some alternative public schools exist

because the traditional highschools aren't cutting it for the kids!

Let's not lose sight of the fact that not all "alternative schools" are for "losers", troublemakers, and "bad kids". 'k?

[slackmaster]

28. Yes, that's exactly what we used to do with them

Several people I know personally are teachers. They cover K-12. Disruptive students present serious challenges to maintaining an effective learning environment.

One of my best friends is a career substitute teacher at the high school level. He told me about a recent experience covering a French language class. One student would not stop talking, while everyone else in class was preparing to take the final exam. My friend suggested that the young man leave the class room and go see his counselor.

The kid responded by calling my friend a "racist" and a "faggot", and threatened him with bodily harm. (The kid either fancies himself a gang member, or really is one.) My friend called for security assistance. Two big bouncers dragged the kid out. He was suspended for three days.

Everyone I know who teaches anything over sixth grade has similar experiences. It's really tragic IMO. Any kid who acted up like that when I was a student would have been summarily expelled and sent to a "reform school". But today schools tolerate repeat offenses, with only token punishment.

[Echo In Light]

37. We moved a lot when I was a kid, and I often encountered the exact opposite in small schools

The bullies were the popular kids, and the so called "problem" children were the regular victims of them and the social/peer hierarchy they cultivated, which included cover from certain teachers/admins/coaches, etc, who likewise had and promoted those type of "values" and hence saw the victims as the real 'problem.'

[liberal_at_heart]

40. Yes too often people just slap a label on kids

Oh, this one is student president. That one is a delinquent. Most teachers don't realize how many of their prize studnets were drinking and having sex after the footbal game on Friday and bullying kids in the hallway.

[notadmblnd]

41. For talking in class? I guess it all about control isn't it?

he threw a kid out for talking in class? Suspended him for 3 days? somehow I think you're leaving something out. Why did this sub let the situation escalate to the point of having the child expelled? I would have handled it different, I'm not going to tell you how because I'm sure this sub doesn't want constructive advice, he just wants to control his temporary classroom.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. Sounds to me like the sub did the right thing

He offered a time out with the counselor and then the kid started calling him names. That's what got him suspended, not the talking. I had a very similar situation recently. A student was talking during a test and I asked her to stop. She escalated into insulting me and name calling and she also got herself suspended.

It's not the least bit unreasonable to ask kids to be quiet, pay attention and to be respectful. That's part of school.

[notadmblnd]

83. So, you're a substitute teacher too?

No, there are ways that the sub could have engaged the student instead of trying to control the talker and advancing the student's belligerence by being confrontational and making threats. This was a substitute class and most subs don't generally test so expecting total silence is a silly expectation as far as I can see. I said in a previous post, kids look at having a sub as basically a free hour or mini holiday. It probably would have been better to have set some ground rules and allow the students to engage in open conversation. Kid's love talking about themselves, so one of the things I would have tried as a sub, would have been- getting to know them. Tell them about myself, my likes and dislikes. Dislikes are always better to discuss because the students find much more common ground with you, especially if you talk about your childhood.

Certainly they will think it's funny and laugh and that's when the real conversations start. That's when they open up and tell you what they really think and let you know who they really are. The teacher gains their trust, their respect and the teacher gains the reputation as a cool sub. Then the next time you have that class, the students will look forward to seeing the teacher. In fact, the word will get around and other students will look forward to that teacher too. But it won't work if you don't like kids and just look at your job as something to get through and as a situation to control.

We also have to remember that these are young minds, maturing and striving for independence, rebellion should be expected and tolerated to a certain extent. NO, violence of any sort is not to be tolerated, but I think some of the more colorful language could be more tolerated. I like to get a laugh out of kids by asking them what it means? That has often led to a discussion about slang through the generations, how it has changed and what the slang means. It get the kids thinking, it gets them engaged, it allows them to talk, which is what they want to do. The class wouldn't be any more wasted than the hour spent having a confrontation with a student.

But I love kids and believe that even the bad ones want to be good (so what if it's on their own terms?), that they're just looking for acceptance and approval for who they are, not who we want them to be- and that we are the adults, we must learn to pick our battles with our children because some are just not worth having.

[Hannah Bell]

85. what about "they were taking their final exam" didn't you get?

how do you know how many days the sub had been in that class?

you're suggesting that every time a class has a sub, the class should spend the period introducing themselves & "talking about themselves, talking about their likes & dislikes, having an open conversation..."?

[notadmblnd]

112. No I wasn't suggesting that every class be a discussion if the sub is long term

but initially, something has to be done to engage them. It can either be an engagement of bullying (the my way or the highway attitude that many teachers take) or it can be a more compromising one. A long term sub can ease into the daily lesson plan. I don't know. I just think you can catch more flies with honey than you can vinegar. Now I'll concede that you might be able to catch more flies with shit, but then you're outright asking for what you get.

[Hannah Bell]

114. look, the post you responded to was about a class taking a final exam.

& a student who wouldn't shut up to let them do so; who, when called on his mouth, threatened to assault the teacher.

you, however, with your psychic powers, know the teacher handled it completedly wrong, & opine he should have engaged the students in discussion about their likes & dislikes. then a magic rapport would have been created between students & sub!


i can't tell you how clueless that comes across. like a parody, actually.

[notadmblnd]

118. Ok, you bully and disrespect.

You rule your classroom with an iron fist and remember you're the ones molding these minds not only with your lesson plans, but with your actions.

I know I responded to a post in regards to finals and I still think it could have been handled differently. I didn't say I was psychic, but I do know kids. I know what they think and I know how they think. How? Because they tell me. I spend a great deal of time with teenagers, more than most teachers and their parents combined. Six, sometimes seven days a week. Some are known troublemakers, most are young men. I engage them with honesty and respect. They all listen and address me properly and I've yet to have had a vicious confrontation with any of them. I'm often totally amazed by what they ask or tell me, whether it's about drugs, girls, sex, school work or just something that come out fo their mouths just to try and shock me. And when they do get out of line (usually with each other goofing off) they're usually lining up to point out the instigator. Thy want my approval and I give it to them when they earn it. I tell them that they are good boys, and let them know that I think their parents are or would be proud of them. I tell them I am proud of them when they accomplish a goal. And I always, always thank them for their help. It doesn't matter if it's cleaning the table after dinner without being asked, or taking out the garbage, or helping move furniture or even mopping the floors. Would you believe it only took 4 times of handing just one of the boys a mop when they entered if their shoes weren't removed at the door. Now, my door is lined with shoes, the mop is back in the closet and no one has to mop floors all day long. I didn't have to yell or be mean, I just stood at the door as they come in and the first one that didn't take off their shoes, got handed the mop.

I had a young man tell me once when I asked him why he enjoyed behaving badly, (he would bully kids, steal from others and generally disrupt) told me- that is was no fun being good all the time. When I asked him why that was, his answer- he didn't get any attention if he was good. He felt that bad attention was better than no attention. I felt really bad for that kid. He was about 11 at the time. He's in his 30's now and unfortunately he never did get the good attention he was looking for from his parents and has spent much of his young life in prison. However, he's always respected me.

And I'm not saying that every kid is reachable, some have been so damaged- that anger is all they have left to protect themselves with and yes, those that are a danger to themselves and others need to be removed from the setting. But call my thoughts, feelings and experience naive. Ridicule what I have said. But I'm not the teacher with all the students going pissy on me, so I must be doing something right?:shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

119. i'm not a teacher. & it's hypocritical to talk of disrespect when you jump in to

lecture the teacher who posted in complete disregard of the facts he posted:

it was a *final exam*. the student threatened him bodily harm.

[knitter4democracy]

128. I agree that how you set up the environment has a huge influence on behavior.

That said, we're getting this story third-hand, and frankly, I'm going to side with the sub who was threatened with bodily harm when he asked a student to stop talking during a test. That kid knew it was inappropriate behavior in school to threaten anyone like that, even a sub he didn't like. He wasn't a lower elementary student who hadn't learned the rules yet; he was old enough to know that his choices were wrong. He was given the option to go calm down in a safe, respectful environment, and he escalated to threatening violence. I personally have seen that happen in the blink of an eye in my own classroom and know how it can be rather inexplicable some days.

Two days ago, one of my special ones, a student I love who has made serious progress this year in his life and behavior only to have all three parents reject him (long, horrible story that I cried over one night), just exploded in rage at his English teacher. He loves this teacher, and he's always been very respectful with her. It wasn't about her, and it wasn't because she wasn't respectful or had set up a bad classroom environment--it was about the crap he's going through at his latest home. She sent him to the office as a wake-up call for him, and he repeated that with another teacher later in the day. I was the one who walked him to the office after his violent explosion of anger that got the whole school's attention, and he felt awful. He apologized to me, when I wasn't the one he'd acted up with, and I patted his back and asked him if he needed to talk with the counselor. The principal personally drove him to his latest home after talking with him about how to deal with what had happened so he could tell his birthmom about it and let her know that the school is aware of the situation and will be keeping a close eye on her and her husband.

It wasn't about the teacher, it wasn't about the classroom environment, and it wasn't because the teacher wasn't his buddy--it was all about the crap he's going through outside of school. It often is, which is why we all pick our battles. For some kids, it's about being off their meds; for others, it's about the stress and issues at home (wherever that is at the moment); for others, it's because they're high or coming off a high; and for others, it's because they don't deal well with men or with women or with authority in general.

My first day subbing there was the worst day of my teaching career. I went back the next day because I had said I would and only for that reason. Those two days turned into a three week subbing placement, and I cried on my last day there, wondering when I was going to be back. My students were all upset that next Monday when I wasn't there, and the next time I subbed, they were all coming up to me saying they were glad I was back (and then they proceeded to tell the kids I was subbing to be nice to me--which I really appreciated). I'll hear about it tomorrow that I haven't been in for the last two days because my daughter's sick. I always do if I miss a day for any reason. I love my students, even when they're so angry they can't sit still, even when they cuss massively because they forgot where they were, and even when they're bad on purpose just for fun or whatever. Not all of us commenting here don't know how to deal with alternative students, and I think you're assuming far too much here.

[notadmblnd]

134. No, I never said that all teachers didn't know how to deal..

What my initial comment was, is that there are far too many people in the teaching profession that shouldn't be there because they appear to hate kids. And that I also feel that talking in class is a silly reason to kick a child out. Am I mistaken or was the question in the OP - Should we kick out all the bad kids? Well there are teachers out there that hate kids and assume all are bad and treat them with disdain and anger, there are lazy teachers out there just want to get through the day and collect their pay, and there are teachers out there that are bullies and get what they ask for from these kids.

My only argument has been that the situation could have been handled differently and the situation need not have been escalated by either the teacher or the student for that matter, into name calling, threats or violence. I never once said all teachers are bad or all bully. But just as with law enforcement, one bad apple can give the entire bunch a bad reputation.

I for one am sick to death of how people talk to and treat children and young adults these days. If a teacher hates kids, they need to get the hell out of the classroom instead of provoking and escalating.

[knitter4democracy]

145. I can agree with you on that. There are some teachers who need to get fired.

Not all, not even a huge percentage in most schools, but there are teachers who shouldn't be in the classroom. I've subbed for a few (you know it's bad when the kids tell you at the end of the hour that they've learned more from you that day than they have all year), and I wish they'd find a new job and open up their classroom to someone who should be in there.

Most situations can be handled differently, true, but that's true on both sides. The student could have handled it differently, and the sub probably could have, too. The student went too far in threatening harm, though, and my point is that the student bears some responsibility for his behavior, too. I've been threatened, and I've been scared in the back of my mind while a student has been threatening, and I know how scary that is. So far, I have managed to deal with it, get the kid to leave the classroom without hurting me, him/herself, or the other students, but there's always that fear that someday, I won't be fast enough or alert enough to the danger. I've had teacher friends who've ended up in the hospital from student attacks (we English teachers always seem to be targets for some reason), and that danger is real.

That said, I love my students or I wouldn't be there. If I get offered a full-time job at the Catholic school and at the alternative school for next year, I already know where I'll go.

[knitter4democracy]

127. Funny, I've always been able to follow the lesson plan and then some.

Then again, I make sure that, when I sub in a new place, they know I'm a teacher and used to teach in Cleveland. They usually joke a bit about that and then get down to brass tacks.

My job as a sub is to first keep a positive learning environment and second to follow the lesson plan. It shouldn't be a lost day but instead another day of learning and covering the material. I've been known to re-write the plans, too, if I think they're not strong enough, and then I leave copious notes at the end of the day for the teacher, often calling them in or e-mailing them so the teacher has them for planning purposes before walking into school the next day.

I started subbing last fall, and it didn't take long for me to get on the regular sub lists at the so-called rough schools, and now I teach in the morning at the Catholic high school and in the afternoon at the alternative high school. I still get calls from teachers begging me to come back and sub for them, and I hate to tell them that I'm not available anymore.

I'm home with a sick kid today, or I'd be working on essay structure today with my students. If you think you have to be all buddy-buddy with them first, then you're wasting precious class time that they need to meet the standards and goals.

[notadmblnd]

136. NO, you don't have to be all buddy buddy with them, but you don't have to walk

in being confrontational because the schools reputation gave you a predetermined bias against the students. And you can't make me believe that all the teachers are always right and that it's only the students that act out, or that every situation needs to be escalated to the point of suspension, especially over talking in class.

[knitter4democracy]

142. Would I be a successful sub and teacher if I did that?

My favorite schools are the so-called "bad" schools, not because of some power trip, like you seem to think, but because I love the students there. At the school where I waded into a gang fight to protect my student (stupid mistake to get ahead of the teacher line, but I'd seen the instigator and was trying to head him off), the teacher told me later that the students specifically requested me because I wouldn't let them slack off, taught the material, and respected them enough to protect them in a fight (the sub in the room next door went into her room and locked the door, the wuss).

No, teachers aren't always right--I see that every day. I cannot believe, however, that you are okay with a student threatening a teacher with bodily harm. That's what happened, and while I agree that setting up the wrong system, not reading the student's cues, and probably using a confrontational tone a bit too early helped lead to that, the student chose to threaten a teacher. The student chose to talk enough that other students could not take their test. The student chose to keep talking, even after being asked to stop. The student then escalated the situation to threatening violence when asked to leave the room to go calm down. At that point, it wasn't about the talking but about a student who wanted to dominate the class, who wanted attention, or who was having trouble dealing with something from his home life--either way, he made a lot of bad choices that day, regardless of the teacher.

One thing our principal often tells our kids who end up in his office for whatever is that life isn't always fair and that we don't always like those in authority over us. It is one thing to talk back to a teacher, but it is another to talk back to a boss (and in our state, with so few jobs, the kids get that). If they don't learn at our school how to calm down and keep their mouths shut sometimes, when will they learn it? The older we get, the higher the consequences are, and I'd rather they learn to control themselves at our school where the consequences aren't so dire.

[notadmblnd]

148. NO, I'm never said I was ok with a student threating bodily harm

In fact, I said that violence should not be tolerated at all. What I did say, is that there are ways to avoid escalating situations that many teachers choose not to utilize and instead actually make the situation worse.

[Gabi Hayes]

89. ohhhhhh... I'm so glad I didn't have anything in my mouth when I read

your naively idealistic post

please get a job as a sub at the junior high into which my elementary school feeds

then videotape your first day

I'd pay big bucks to see that

thanks for the huge laugh, though

[mzteris]

91. no such thing as a "bad kid"

unless they're clinically a socio- or pscyhopath...

Sometimes you just gotta work a little harder to accept them for who they are!

[Catshrink]

97. Another armchair teacher.

I'm with Gabi Hayes on this one -- I'd love to see the video of you subbing for a day.

[notadmblnd]

110. I'd love to show you.

[knitter4democracy]

105. I sub in an alternative school. Want to tell me what to do, too?

I actually teach those kids, and while I agree with what you're saying, I've been in similar situations described in the post. Sometimes, that rage comes out of nowhere, and when that happens, it's best to get him away from other students where he can deal with it safely.

[Codeine]

107. Oh good lord.

School is for learning, not idiotic conversational bullshit or being "a cool sub." A teacher must always be in control of her classroom or learning ceases.

Fuck, I hate it when people live in a goddamned dream world.

[Fire1]

108. That's why subbing is the hardest job on earth, imo. n/t

[notadmblnd]

111. and I don't like people that take up a profession they have no business

being in. Funny how everyone blames the powerless for their inability to connect with them. And if your comments to your students are anything like your comments to me, then all I got to say is- there you go!

[kiva]

109. You're saying that subs shouldn't even try to teach, but

should spend the entire time chatting with the students - I'd worry, but like the above posters I suspect you spend no time in a classroom.

[slackmaster]

98. The kid was preventing all the students from starting their final exam

It was the last period of the day. Some of the students have after-school commitments, and can't stay late for the convenience of some selfish clown who won't shut the fuck up.

My friend has been subbing for almost 27 years. He knows what he's doing.

[notadmblnd]

115. "Selfish clown that won't shut the fuck up"

That statement tells me more than you can imagine. I hope you're not a teacher.

[slackmaster]

130. I'm not a teacher, wouldn't be able to handle it, and I assure you my teacher friend doesn't see it

that way.

I have no patience with people. That's why I work mostly with machines.

[knitter4democracy]

104. It's about maintaining a positive learning environment.

If that student doesn't want to be there and is being disruptive on purpose because he's bored or whatever, then he shouldn't be there.

Last fall, I was the sub for our alternative high schools in the area. I don't think you're getting the entire picture of what happened. Yes, the kid was talking, but I'm pretty sure I have a good idea what he was actually saying.

For example, I kicked a kid out last fall for setting himself on fire. In class. After warning him not to do it. I kicked another student out for just going to get a drink of water--it wasn't about that as much as it was her calling me all sorts of disrespectful names when I asked her to wait five minutes until class was over, screaming at me, and knocking over a chair onto another student. If you ask her, though, it was because she went to get a drink.

Many kids these days are full of rage that's just barely controlled. It doesn't take much at all (sometimes, just a look), and what started as a simple situation explodes into a very scary situation very quickly. I've been threatened this year, stared down, screamed at, called all sorts of things, and I waded into a big gang fight in the hallway trying to protect my student and keep the rival gang kids from getting to him. Sometimes, yes, it really is about control--to keep the other kids safe, secure, and able to learn.

[notadmblnd]

113. seems to me many teachers these days are full of rage too.

Setting oneself on fire is a violent act and as I stated earlier, no violence should be tolerated. As for the girl that wanted to get out of class 5 minutes early. I would have told her that she could leave if she'd like, but I'd really appreciate if she would stay if she possibly could. Is 5 minutes and a drink of water really worth having a conflict over? People say they don't want kids that don't want to be in class out.. but then they want to leave- will give them shit for that? Not only alienating the student wanting to get out of class, but alienating others as they see how you escalate the situation? It didn't have to get down to the student calling you names, you see? Let them know that you won't be responsible if they get caught in the halls and let them make the choice and suffer the consequences. Don't even tell me that there aren't hall monitors and security personnel throughout the school.

And no, I don't believe that every student would follow suit and leave with her. It would show that you have respect for these young adults and that in turn would generate more respect for you in the future.

[knitter4democracy]

125. Heh. No, we don't have hall monitors or security.

We teachers do that job. It's a small, alternative high school, so we all help each other out.

Do you honestly think I didn't ask her nicely just to wait? I calmly reminded her that class was almost over and that we needed her in class to finish our discussion on the reading. She called me a few things and started walking towards the door. I reminded her of the school policy that, if they leave the room without the teacher's permission, it goes down as having left (an unexcused absence). She called me a few choice names and stormed out. I started calmly writing it all down while the other students started laughing at how crazy she was acting. She hadn't had me much before and didn't know me as well, but the others did and know that I'm not like that. She came back in after getting her drink loaded for bear, and I refused to discuss it with her. I had firmly and calmly asked her not to leave the room with only five minutes left (per the principal's latest memo), and she had walked out anyway, causing a scene before and after.

I find your assumptions amusing. Do you honestly think I would sub and now teach in an alternative high school if I didn't love the students and love being there every day? I know when to pick my battles, and my students know that it's got to be bad before I'm going to kick them out. They usually admit later that I was right. There's being respectful and wanting to create a positive environment, but then there's also making sure the rules are followed with logical consequences for breaking the rules. Our students sometimes still have yet to learn to respect consequences, so we are firm about that.

I've actually been taken to task for not sending kids to the office more when they've acted up in my class. I keep them there so I can deal with them and because I think sending them out rewards them for bad behavior a lot of the time. I only write them up when they are disrespectful on purpose (not cussing because that's the language they know but deliberately using it against me), walk out without permission, or contribute to a negative classroom environment and refuse to change their behavior, not to mention violence.

[notadmblnd]

135. but instead of saying good after noon as she continued to leave

you reminded her of policy, (like she forgot) and kept the confrontation going. She started cussing, the rest of the class reacted and you got to write a report. When all that had to be done- was marking her absent with a note next to it that she walked out of class.

Surely, you can see my point here?

[knitter4democracy]

138. The students often forget the policies, I've found.

Many just walk out of class, no notice, nothing. Because of liability issues with our particular batch of students, we can't not know where they are. I asked her where she was going, she said she was going for a drink, and I asked her to wait five minutes. She started escalating from there.

How interesting that you think she couldn't in any way, shape, or form wait five minutes to go get a drink or that she shouldn't let the adult liable for her safety know where she's going. How interesting that you think her behavior was okay, when she caused a major scene (and, knowing her better than you do, I think that was her intention all along) that was bad enough that the other students complained about it.

I don't like writing kids up at all. I avoid it when possible. I don't like power plays and try to diffuse situations as much as possible, and usually, it works. The kid backs down or explains him/herself better, we come to an agreement, it's all good. She later tried to tell me she'd been sick and really needed that drink, but if she'd told me that at the beginning rather than after she knew she was written up, there wouldn't have been a problem. We have many students with various health needs, and I always honor those--and all of the students know that. I knit baby sweaters for our pregnant kids, for crying out loud, and they know I never judge when it's a health issue.

I think you're on a high horse and don't want to get off.

[notadmblnd]

152. And I can't believe you not would think that perhaps she just told you she wanted a drink

because she may not have wanted to tell you out loud that she had another personal hygiene issue to take care of. I'm not going to blurt out I need to leave because I think I started my period, not at school, not at the work place. Do teacher's have to call and ask the principle if they can leave a classroom in the middle of class? And no, they don't forget the rules. The rules stay the same every year, none go away, just more instilled in an attempt to criminalize our children at earlier and earlier ages.

I read here stories of children as young as 5 or 6 being handcuffed and held, and now there's a serious debate in regards to using tasers at schools. My point is, if a teacher hates kids and they are so damned afraid of them that they have to take extreme measure to control them for the simple offense of talking or wanting to leave the classroom and allows it escalate because it has now become a matter of control, then perhaps one should not be a teacher?

Why is it, that to the republicans children are only precious before they are born, and with democrats only their own children are precious, the rest can go to hell?

[knitter4democracy]

161. Most of the time, it's not a health issue.

Our students use the "getting a drink" excuse to take a break from class, meet up with friends, and for many other reasons than actually getting a drink. If someone really needs a drink, all of us are very fair about that, as long as they tell us beforehand and respect us when we ask them to wait. I know my school and my students, and I know when most are scamming me on the drink thing. Yes, I assumed that was what she was doing, as there were only five minutes left in the block, and she could have waited. I don't think asking her to wait five minutes was unreasonable, and the principal agreed with me.

As for handcuffs and tasers, those make me shudder, too. That's disgusting. Teachers on power trips should be eliminated from the profession, though most seem to get promoted into administration. *sigh* Thank goodness the principals I'm working for this year aren't like that at all. I'd heard there were good principals out there, and now I've had the honor of working for two of them. Many, though, just seem to be about running the school like a prison, with predictable results.

My own children (both now sick with strep--ugh) are precious, but so are my students. I wouldn't knit for them, fight for them, get them Gatorade from the machine when they have a fever but can't go home yet, or buy them lunch when they don't have any money if I didn't care about them. As for others here, most Dems are very pro-kid (any age) but are worried about safe environments at home and school.

[LanternWaste]

151. Or prevent unwarranted disruption

"he just wants to control his temporary classroom....

Or prevent unwarranted disruption for the sake of the students who do want to learn. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

I guess it fundamentally rests on one's perspectives...

[LynneSin]

35. Honestly - yes

The problem with 'problem children' is that they sometimes require extra attention and instructions in order for them to be sucessful. This does not mean that 'problem children' are unintelligent or mentally challenged, but a few 'problem children' in a class can impact the entire classroom if the teacher has to spend more time dealing with the issues of a few instead of focusing on the entire group.

The only problem with doing this is several things. First and foremost, you don't want the special school to end up as a form of 'juvenile detention'. You also want to make sure that the same kinds of challenging classworks are made available to these students. And finally the system needs to be setup that would allow a student to return back to the main schools if they are able to work thru the issues and the child shows improvements.

When I was first starting elementary school, my mother was dealing with a speech impediment that I had. I went to some special classes during my years in kindergarten - it was easy since the classes were held during the half day I was not in school. (I attended 1-2 times a week). However, when I started elementary school, the only way I could continue my progress was to be placed in special education even though I tested high on all my preliminary school tests. In a nutshell, the school had no way of fixing my issue, which I still have today (it's not a bad speech problem, just problems with word pronunciations).

I remember a segment in the movie "Super Size Me" (the documentary where Morgan Spurlock lived on McDonalds 24x7 for 30 days) he visited a special school for problem children where the diets were radically altared. The children were fed organic fresh foods and all processed foods were eliminated from the school. They found that many of the behavior problems the children had in their old schools seem to have disappeared.

To be honest, if I wanted to revamp the system the first thing I would do is change the food sold in the cafeteria and eliminate all processed foods. I know that those soda machines are big revenue for some school districts but don't most of those soda companies also have juice & water products that have little to no sugar?

[dkf]

42. I wouldn't be surprised if sugar is half the problem.

All throughout my childhood my mom would only give us water. Juice was a special treat and soda was only after doing yard work. Who knew Moms methods of controlling costs could have helped us in other ways.

[LynneSin]

45. I think too much ADHD is diagnosed for bad diets

I'm shocked at all the processed foods available in the schools. I know when we went to school you could not access the soda machines except during special events. The only drink choices at school were milk and the water fountain. And the only special treats were ice cream. Now our schools are smorgasbords of junk foods filled with processed chemicals and high fructose corn syrup. And they wonder why our children have short attention spans. Might as well give these kids crack.

[ensho]

43. children are not as they used to be

as we put more and more toxins in the air, water, food, etc. more children are born with mental and emotional problems.

Yes, there has to be different classrooms. it is not fair to either type of child to lump them together and try to teach.

and then there are the children raised by parenting that is less then wonderful. these kids could be in their own classes UNTIL they are taught to be harmonious.

ONE CLASS DOES NOT FIT ALL

[donco6]

44. It "works" for charter schools.

And they're lauded as "miracle" schools by Obama's DOEd head.

But seriously, the solution lies more in abandoning this factory model we keep going back to time and again. This idea that we can fire all the workers, retool the plant, and run the sheet metal . . . er, . . . KIDS through the system and they'll all turn out better. It just never works that way.

The school is not separate from the community. And to try to solve the education problems without at least RECOGNIZING the connections to community will result in common scapegoating.

[Hannah Bell]

86. +100

[dmallind]

49. A bit more nettlesome but related issue is streaming

I understand the sociological desire to look for equality and norming, but reality is a pesky thing to change.

In any community of kids you will find high achieving, highly motivated, very bright kids who will not feel challenged or even interested in normal grade-appropriate instruction. A kid who taught himself to read at age 4 and reads 5th grade books by the time he enters school does not want to spend hours knowing that b is for ball or using phonics to "work out" words he has in immediate lexicon storage. If that kid stays in school and resists the temptation to dumb himself down to the group expectations, when he's going to middle school comfortable reading Tolstoy and Rushdie, does it really make him a better student to have him regurgitate crap about Lord of the Flies that he read years ago and that take the insight of a puppy to him? When he's in high school and reads Proust in the original should he waste his time dissecting Catcher in the Rye at the level of people who think it's cutting analysis to mention that he's disaffected by society?

In that same community you will find kids that are low achieving, low motivated and frankly not all that bright. Academic capability is not just down to the teacher or the parents but down to the innate capacity of the student to learn and absorb new knowledge. Try as we might people are not equal here - and NOT just those with disabilities. A kid who can't read at all and has absolutely no concept of what the difference is between an a and a k cannot keep up with those who have at least been read to and shown the words. By middle school maybe if he's not lost all interest by then he can basically read and wrote with a limited vocabulary. Lord of the Flies is a complete mystery because it uses words with which he is unfamiliar. He has absolutely no concept of the book except as a difficult story to follow and the themes of latent savagery and group dynamics are just more words he doesn't understand, let alone can't apply. If he's lucky enough to still be in high school, Catcher in the Rye is just another tough story with a lot of goddamns in it. He can't even spell disaffected the same way twice much less explain how he would understand that from the book.

And of course in that same community you have the mass of "normal" kids who can just about make out words to begin with, can just about understand the books when presented to them, and so on.

I don't care about modern pedagogical theory about individual goal setting and shared examples. The first kid is always going to be bored and de-motivated. the second kid is always going to be resentful if they don't care and desperate if they do. Pretending they can be in the same class is just as silly as pretending the kids destined for alternative schools can be integrated into those classes too.

I was lucky in a way but even so I saw this problem first hand. I went to a school from 11-18 (really 10-17 for me - skipped a year) where only 25% of applicants got in. Within each year we had four streamed classes. Even in THOSE classes -where you are streaming the top 25% in 4 classes of 6.25% each - you had a huge range of abilities especially at the top, ranging from a true eidetic memory (which is a terrifying thing when witnessed frankly) through people like the first example, to people who were bright enough to read Proust at least in translation, but really only got the surface ideas. Just juggling the top 6-7% of kids took a lot of excellent teacher time (All teachers were graduates in the actual subject taught. PhD's were not unusual. Top university graduates were the norm, and the vast majority of our teachers had 20+ years at the school). Asking a mid-20s Bachelor's in Education to handle those guys AND the normal kids AND the stragglers is just asking them to fail.

[Trillo]

51. Possibly. But it does no good to kick the kid out,

only to force them into another school that is following the same "approved" educational plans and methods.

The reason it is no good is quite simple. It teaches the kid how to banish. When that kid is an adult, what will they be able to banish from their life when the relationship between them gets tough? Their need for an income stream? Their government? Their neighbors? Their family?

Kicking out teaches a non-effective survival strategy. It's doubling insulting that the expulsion lesson is a lesson of example, instead of one of lecture. The lesson of example is, I believe, generally considered the stronger teaching method, so it's quite curious and revealing that a school would decide to use their most effective teaching method only against those of whom they disapprove.

In short, kicking a kid out of school, then forcing them to attend another school, is one of the ultimate lessons of hypocrisy we teach a few of our youngest. It is dysfunctional in the extreme.

[ensho]

53. why do you use the word 'kick' ? the kids wouldn't be kicked out

they would be 'evaluated' and put into the proper classrooms

[Trillo]

58. You prefer the word "expel" or "expulsion"?

The OP wrote in part: "...problem kids out of the system". Essentially, that is not currently allowed.

edit: OP also wrote "kick out non performers".

So why are you calling me out on the use of the word, instead of the OP? BTW, I also used the word "banish". To me, all those words and phrases are describing the same phenom.

[Warren Stupidity]

121. The OP's exact terminology.

" Is the only solution that teachers can control to kick out non performers?"

[mzteris]

94. instead of "kicking out"

think of it as finding the best option for the kid. If there were "more models" to choose from and one was - directed - towards a model that works for them, it wouldn't be seen as punitive or failing.

That's one of the beauties of magnet schools and charter public schools, it offers different options for students without being "labeled" as a problem child.

[Trillo]

159. Yours is a theory, a truth, or a falsehood?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7840861#7848242
It seems one school decided to ruin a kids life, and it doesn't seem that he was directed toward a "model" that worked for him, sounds more like he was hung out to dry.

Unlike my idea, where he may later banish his family, his family seems to have banished him. So, yours seems more like a theory, a sales effort based upon the hypothetical best case scenario. Note that the article doesn't state whether the private school was a private charter school that receives public money.

These private educators, not necessarily the teachers themselves, but the school as a whole, seek to do harm to some, and that would preclude offering "help" or "direction" toward a better "model". The clear intent is to ruin.

[mzteris]

163. excuse me?

but you're not making a bit of sense here. Well - you ARE, but not in way as regards MY posts.


FIRST - THIS post was about THIS thread. Discussing alternative educational options - of which I happen to be an advocate.

SECOND - did you SEE my post in THAT thread? Personally, I abhor ALL "religious" schools, 'cause I pretty much abhor all RELIGION.


This thread/post - has NOTHING to do with that thread/post. m'k?


If you're still confused about THIS post, as it pertains to THIS thread, please do not hesitate to pursue this discussion. However, let's leave that thread - indeed RELIGIOUS schools - out of it as they have no bearing/standing in this discussion. Nor private schools either for that matter. They can do what they want (not that I approve.)

[Trillo]

166. Of course it pertains to this tread, in multiple ways.

The kid is going to either drop out if it's legal for him to do so, or finish his diploma. If he finishes his diploma, then he'll be going either to a private or a public school to do so. That means either your school, or another. However, he's now psychologically damaged. The effects of that damage can be minimized; whether they will be, or not, who knows, but it doesn't look good when his parents have sort of disowned him.

What I find most curious about your response is the failure to take responsibility. As an educational advocate, you have benefited from *compulsory* education laws, which affected the kid whose story I linked to. Yet, in response to that *benefit* you denied responsibility of any kind, "let's leave that thread - indeed RELIGIOUS schools - out of it as they have no bearing/standing in this discussion", which kind of runs counter to your assertion of "If there were "more models" to choose from and one was - directed - towards a model that works for them, it wouldn't be seen as punitive or failing". However, the *If* you wrote was a large conditional. Sort of dreamy, dealing in the realm of possibility instead of reality.

This kid has been *directed* in an unkindly way by the school he did attend, he has not reportedly received the support of his parents, instead the opposite, but the law *directs* him right into another school, without actually giving any direction as to what kind of school within his transportation radius would be more appropriate for him. Is that not the precise point you were alluding to, while suggesting great care and consideration would be made personally for him and all others like him, and particularly *before* psychological damage was deliberately inflicted?

While laws may vary, its possible at his age that he could legally drop out, but had he been younger, that would not be a possibility. So now he's going to be a another school's problem, which is what the OP was about. What public schools should do with *problem kids*.

Perhaps now he will have a slightly greater urge to tell his educators to "fuck off", truly believing the words that issue forth from their mouths are at best self-serving lies, and at worst, harm-inflicting lies. That's now part of his "experience", part of his *reality*.

But according to you, you have no responsibility to him, for your advocacy is for the schools, not the students, and not even all schools, or all students, just a smaller subset of them, all while *selling* the greater population on your hope that one day kids will be kindly directed before the school does harm.

Totally amazing. And Sad.

[mzteris]

167. wow - you do love to hear yourself go on and on

and without once stopping to really understand what I was saying.

1. When I wrote the answer in this thread it was about THIS topic. It was also a "hypothetical" (utopian?) world in which multiple models exists. Ones that would work with a child's educational - and personal - needs. Whereby children/parents can migrate to an environment in which they will THRIVE! GLBT friendly schools being one of them. But in this case, the parents would have been the real stumbling block because they wouldn't have sent him there in the FIRST place. I can't control what all parents do, believe me, if I did - things would be a whole lot different.

2. Children can and do obtain diplomas through HOMESCHOOLING! Another good and viable option for education. (Again, I wish some people weren't doing it for "religious indoctrination" reasons, but I can't eliminate that anymore than I can eliminate religious schools - nor, indeed, religion.

3. MY advocacy has ALWAYS been about the students. That's why I advocate multiple models to meet multiple needs.

It's funny, if you go into the education forum, THEY'RE convinced I "HATE" traditional public schools and only want their demise. . .

I've children who have been homeschooled, charter-schooled, traditional public schooled, magnet-schooled, on-line and car-schooled. I have never "religious" nor "private" schooled. My oldest is currently at an alternative school. People think they're the "losers" - druggies and hippies. :rofl: They're the really smart kids - those square pegs that would never, no matter how hard you pounded, get into a round hole. It is a refuge for LGBT kids, I'd say nearly half the pop is LGBT. Other kids who have been bullied by other kids - (overweight, speech impediment, aspie, physically impaired, etc...) This is one of the most wonderful schools I've ever seen. Too bad this kid couldn't have gone to this school or one like it, but again, I seriously doubt his parents would have allowed it.

My youngest is currently at a spanish immersion public charter school. Because of our success, the local school district has begun OTHER immersion programs - and is implementing a middle school dual language to accommodate our kids next year, and already in the planning stages for a highschool program.

So - again - I'm just not sure how it is you're coming down on me for any of this. If you look at this logically, what I'm saying makes perfect sense. Did you READ my response in the other thread, btw? (I personally wouldn't advocate a GED, but some people are uncomfortable with homeschool diplomas and prefer GED's - which is, of course, an option).

[Trillo]

170. I'm not coming down on you, just trying to understand your original statement to me

instead of "kicking out"

think of it as finding the best option for the kid. If there were "more models" to choose from and one was - directed - towards a model that works for them, it wouldn't be seen as punitive or failing.

That's one of the beauties of magnet schools and charter public schools, it offers different options for students without being "labeled" as a problem child.

It read to me as if you were saying that this was now the reality -- this is one of the big errors of too much briefness coupled with a dualistic language. The only way I could conceive of your statement was if you were referring to the compulsory aspect of education, and the law itself was doing the directing -- like "See, you have to go to another school, the law mandates it", i.e., "instead of "kicking out"".

It didn't occur to me that you were writing of a personal dream that you hope will one day be reality.

Oh, and no, I hadn't seen your post on the other thread. Thanks for helping with ideas. Personally, I hope he can recover from the hatred he's experienced.

The public schools do have their work cut out for them, as they would seem to get a lot of the private-school rejects, who, once rejected, are harmed, particularly when it was an unjust rejection, and those, it seems, are much more widespread than politics wants us to believe.

Good Luck.

[krabigirl]

62. For high schools, imo, yes. We should look at other countries' systems.

For example, one I know of (France), if you aren't interested or don't have the aptitude to go to a university, you don't stay in the regular schools. You go to a trade school (still state-funded) and can begin working earlier. Also, there's no sports teams in the schools. I wish we'd at least look at that. I see public high schools in the US as just glorified "learning" institutions that really just slavish all of their attention on the school sports, mainly football.

[Warren Stupidity]

122. our high school doesn't do that

I guess it depends where you live. Around here (New Hampshire) we are so old fashioned that we think schools ought to teach and that athletics are part of a well rounded education but certainly not the focus. We have issues with funding of course, but the high cost sports programs tend to go first, not last.

[donco6]

131. My athletics budget is $50,000 out of $52 million

And we pay for kids to get their AA degree while in high school.

[ipaint]

66. It might be easier to purge the government of neo cons and

neo libs. They are the problem, the schools are a sympton of their policies.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

92. the kids are 't the problem...it's the parents who didn't raise them that need to be taken out !

[knitter4democracy]

106. Especially if they don't have any parents.

I posted it upthread, but 84% of our students at my alternative high school where I teach have lost one or both parents. It's not always the parents who are the problem but the serious lack of social support systems for teens.

[notadmblnd]

137. you're right. It's the lack of a support system

The problem is, children are expected to all behave the same, no matter the baggage they're toting to school with them. All I'm trying to say is to give them respect and a little understanding instead of escalating (in this case a simple talking problem) into an expulsion.

[knitter4democracy]

139. I find it interesting you assume I don't.

I rarely write anyone up for behavior issues, especially if I know what the backstory is. I'm more likely to let them pace in the hallway or go get a drink to calm down.

Funny how you've decided you know all students, know all situations, know how I teach and what my school is like, and feel you can judge accordingly.

[notadmblnd]

147. no, you've assumed all that

clearly, your not understanding what I'm trying to say. And nothing I have said should you take personal, because I haven't tried to make it personal against any one here. I can see that you are so dead set against what I am saying, that even when I agree with you, you take offense.

[knitter4democracy]

160. No, you've made yourself pretty clear here.

You quickly judged a fellow teacher third-hand, jumping to a kid's defense when he threatened violence. Buried deep in your posts is where you've said you're not okay with violent threats; most of posts focus on how it was all the teacher's fault for the escalation. I have tried to depict scenarios, ones I've personally witnessed, where a student could escalate quickly despite the teacher using every possible positive way to handle it, and you still blame the teacher, not the student for his behavior choices as well.

I too think people are too quick to blame teens and are too judgmental and harsh on teens, but I am not okay with a student disrupting an entire class's exam, refusing to correct his behavior when asked, and who then escalates it to violent threats in front of everyone.

[notadmblnd]

162. I never once defended the child. I did say it could have been handled differently

by the one that was supposed to be an adult in the situation. You're obviously reading more into my words that what I am saying. As I said before this is not a personal attack on you or your skills.

[Catshrink]

100. It won't happen becase Duncan and Obama say every kid should be college bound.

To hell with what the kid wants, Duncan and Obama want them going to college. One size fits all. Obviously, they don't know a damn thing about education. Alternative schools would help save many kids that would otherwise be lost.

[JerseygirlCT]

133. I think we should be aiming at that, actually

I've seen too many kids in this town tracked early into a non-college path. Then less is expected of them overall, academically, and surprise! They sink to expectations.

If someone has a passion to be an electrician, I want her heading for that as the best educated electrician possible, not the kid who washed out of college prep.

[Catshrink]

143. I get your point but the fact remains

that some kids just don't want to go and some just don't have the ability because of learning disabilities. I don't get the point "best educated electrician." I want the electician best able to fix a wiring problem and I don't really care if he or she has ever read Shakespeare. My dad had a friend who was a terrific carpenter and never learned to read. I used to think the way you do until I got to know a number of students who had no interest in college and were miserable at the thought that that was their parents' expectation of them. OTOH, I now have a student who is definitely college-capable and extremely bright. She has no interest in college and has her heart set on cosmetology school. I can see her excelling at science and becoming a PhD or physician but that's not what she wants. We've talked a lot about this but her heart isn't in it. I'm hoping that maybe a couple of years out of high school she'll reconsider but it's her choice.

[JerseygirlCT]

146. What I mean by that is that education is for more than job training

we need an educated populace - not just skills, but real education - an understanding of math, science, history, and literature.

And yes, it does start at home. When parents value education, it's far more likely, I suspect, that their children do, too. Why shouldn't your plumber read Shakespeare?

[Hello_Kitty]

154. I think we should aim for everyone taking college courses sometime in their lives

But a lot of people are simply not ready for college right after high school.

[JerseygirlCT]

155. Whether they actually opt to attend is another thing - I think

our goal should be to prepare then to attend. If they opt for a different path, that's fine.

I've just seen that kids will live up to expectations - or down to them.

[Hello_Kitty]

156. Yeah, instead of thinking of it as "college prep"

It should be viewed as "things everyone should know to be a literate and enlightened citizen regardless of the path they choose in life".

[JerseygirlCT]

157. Yup, exactly. nt

[Ozymanithrax]

117. And what do we do with them? Sell them to Conservatives by the pound?

If education were esteemed in our society, teachers would have golden parachutes and schools would be bailed out by Congress.

Imagine what would happen on wall street if anyone suggested getting rid of the problem CEO's.

[Warren Stupidity]

120. and?

What exactly do we do with these so-called 'problem kids'? Where exactly are they kicked to? And finally, I've actually never heard a teacher say that.

[mmonk]

123. As someone who has had to traverse the system since I had

a special needs child (who now is in college), it depends on what they mean. I tend to say it is not for them to judge (unless they are threatened). Their job is to teach to the best of their abilities under the circumstances of their employment. That judgement is an area under administration domain.

[mzteris]

164. however, if you had've had

other educational models to CHOOSE from - one that might better serve your child's needs, do you think that would've helped?

[Cass]

124. It is not always the parent's fault despite what's being said by many in this thread.

The kid might have a learning disability which is not being properly addressed, or the kid might have gone through a traumatic event (loss of a parent, abuse, divorce, family financial problems, etc). All of those things can be cause for a child to have difficulties. But I guess its just easier to blame the parents and kick the kid to curb. How sad.

The other thing is that kids are individuals and not all do well in a particular learning style. Schools cannot accommodate every child's learning style of course, its just not feasible to do so when you've got so many in a classroom. But some kids who march to a different beat end up labeled as problem kids who can't conform, when its simply a matter of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

[LWolf]

126. The problem is larger than the school system,

and the solution has to be a larger responsibility.

It's a societal problem, not a school system problem. There are plenty of dysfunctions in the school system, and if you ask teachers, we'll give you plenty of great ideas for addressing them.

To address the societal issues, though, the nation has to eradicate poverty and the anti-intellectual character of our society.

Here are SOME of the reasons for poor performance in schools across the nation:

1. Poverty
2. Large student and/or staff turnover
3. Students who come from environments of neglect, abuse, POVERTY...think Maslow's hierarchy. Their survival and security needs aren't met; they have no space in their lives for intellectual pursuits.
4. Overcrowding
5. Lack of funding
6. Lack of support from politicians and the general public for authentic, positive reforms.
6. "Solutions" that ignore what research and experience tell us; "solutions" that are manufactured for political purposes.
7. Refusal to look at the sources of poor performance, instead scapegoating teachers and schools that have been set up to fail, because it serves a political purpose to do so.

If you are referring to Central Falls specifically, it's pretty simple. The teachers are contracted to teach at a given salary. Their contract sets hours and working conditions. Like all union contracts. Extra hours and duties, beyond the contractual day and duties, are supposed to be paid. It's a labor dispute.

My contract, for example, says that I am at school from 7:30 A.M. until 5 P.M.. I can't be assigned extra work outside that contractual day. I can be offered "extra duty," for which I'm paid a stipend or an hourly wage.

For the record, when I take on "extra duty" and am paid hourly, that hourly rate is not "time and a half" for over-time. It's significantly LESS than what you get if you divide my daily contractual "rate" by the number of hours in the contract.

We have labor agreements for a reason. Turning against labor does not reflect well on Democrats, and will not turn out well for the party.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

141. "Runnig a hotel would be a great job if it wasn't for the people who stay in them." Basil Fawlty

[gleaner]

149. But what would you do with the "problem" children ....

How would you try to salvage them or educate them? It seems we need to give them more help and not less. Children don't ask to be born. They have no choice of who their parents are going to be. They can't raise themselves, or teach themselves. If you throw them on the streets with nothing, no semblance of training or education and you stigmatize them, you will have a large population of unskilled and untrained people trying to survive with no survival tools. Many of them would become violent criminals, and what would you do with them?

[KamaAina]

150. Who are the "problem kids"?

The ones withe behavioral disabilities, including autism>?

Does that make me a "problem DUer"? :shrug:

[SoCalDem]

153. Who gets to define "problem children"?.. n/t

[defendandprotect]

165. Saw this when my son was in elementary school . . . one student disrupting the classroom . . .

disrupting the work of other students --

very difficult for the teachers -- and I suspect worse now --

But, while temporarily perhaps we could think in terms of some separation --

overall I don't like the idea --

We need to find out why this is happening --

More and more students -- many males -- are unable to tolerate a classroom setting --

many are being treated with chemicals!!

We're not finding out the cause of all of this -- so I doubt without knowing the real

cause that we can fix anything!!

[dysfunctional press]

168. the problem PARENTS need to be taken out of the system.

[treestar]

169. I've heard this from educators

Informally, of course. Maybe some DU educators can weigh in on it.

There are always troublemakers who behave badly and wreck shit for the other students. If you could just remove them! But they seemed of the opinion that if they did that, others would just pop up and take their places!