Public education and cultural attitudes in the US

[nadinbrzezinski]

No the problem are not "trouble kids." All school systems HAVE trouble kids.

No the problem are not the teachers (In general, like all professions there are a few teachers who should have chosen other professions)

No the problem is not the lack of funding, rather this is a symptom.

The problem is that in the US we pay lip service to education. This is a cultural problem related to our distrust of "intellectuals" and egg heads and experts. And until this changes.

By the way the union busting is also a symptom as well as the drive for local control. Though this last one is also a historical problem going back to oh... Washington. So until the culture changes... good luck on that... we will see this back and forth.

Oh and for the record I am damn glad I don't have kids. Or I would seriously look at emigrating, this would be but one more reason to seriously consider that.

So it is not the teachers... it is not the unions... IT IS THE FUCKING FOLKS KNOW BETTER CULTURE AND WE DISTRUST EGG HEADS...

So that is what needs to change, and I don't expect that to change any time soon. So use an intellectual term... a furiegner concept, this is part of the US Long Duree.

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

1. you are exactly correct, I am sad to say

The American view of education and intellectualism has been on a long decline since the 1960s. Education is no longer looked upon as a system for critical thought, rather a tool for career advancement (at best) or a socialization network.

Where we may part opinions is my belief that many administrators and educational "theorists" have absorbed this perspective; at the undergraduate level across America there has been a sharp move away from skill-based education (ie, can you memorize foundational material and then use that material as a form of problem solving) toward "esteem-based" models where the focus is not on skills but on how the student feels about themselves in the world. Vital skills like mathematics and literacy are vanishing (this is not an exaggeration) because we don't want to make students feel too badly about themselves for never learning the material in the first place. It is a horrible cycle that is not going to end any time soon.

We cannot as a culture even manage to decide that we should come together to help sick people pay their medical bills: don't expect any turn-around in the cultural perception of education any time soon. Sorry; its the end of Empire.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. If you look at US History the 1950s and 60s were outside

the cultural norm as well. That emphasis on math and sciences came because of Sputnik. We, as a culture, have despised intellectuals and egg heads from word go as a nation. The long duree in the US is about 300 years on, and it takes more than just one generation to change those trends.

[raccoon]

11. Some schools in the 1950s and 1960s were terrible too. Where I went was. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Of course they were. Having a higher emphasis

on science and tech in the 60s did not mean that all schools were better. Hell, the reason why we went there, in general, was driven by Empire.

[raccoon]

16. Elucidate, my dear Watson.

"Hell, the reason why we went there, in general, was driven by Empire"

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Sputnik. The ruskies reached near earth

orbit faster than we did. The all mighty US could not afford that. Hence the push for science and math in the 1960s.

[daleanime]

2. Nicely put!

:applause:

[mike_c]

3. as an educator, I completely agree with you....

Even most of our university students seem to regard education as a means to an end, rather than a desirable end in itself. It IS a cultural problem. This is a country that lionizes people for death and destruction-- "thank you for your service," indeed-- for sports performance and for shallow entertainment, while looking down its nose at learning and teaching except as practical necessities. No wonder we have our heads jammed so far up into the darkness.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Well education is an investment (and it is), not something

you do to broaden horizons. Why a general education that is well rounded has been on the wane for at least two generations. That leads to the problem of a college degree being a HS degree equivalent these days.

Hence we no longer see a college degree as an achievement, but as a necessity. And when I looked at what to get for my niece, graduating this semester, it used to be that a nice watch or a nice pen was the gift de rigeour... I gave her a gift cert to get some clothes for work.

Of course I see it with my own family. My brother complaints he has no time to keep up with politics. Well, partly it is his and his family's choice. I put on the news, and Keith and Rachel. They watch sports.

And like most folks in this country they do what helps to keep the bread and circus going...

Me, I just go downstairs and keep my attention on what matters to me...

Oh and as to thanking people for their service... not only soldiers should be thanked, but also doctors, teachers and other public servants... (And for the record I do)

So thank you Mike...

[seabeyond]

5. i dont see how running away or not having kids is the answer. i prefer to insist on it in my home

feed nurture adn allow to grow with my children, and pay it forward

my kids will certainly benefit and gain from it and enhance their lives and be part of the collective conscious that embrace learning

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. It is a cultural thing truly

and I have grown to despise the anti intellectual culture of the US. Perhaps Glenny, who is far more average in his attitudes vis a vis liberals (read intellectuals) than people here realize, has scared me to my wits. Sorry to say it but he and his ilk (who are pushing this anti intellectualism to the extreme) remind me of... NAZIs and it is my survivor instinct coming to the fore.

Oh and as to not having kids... that is what life gave us... so be it.

[seabeyond]

14. that is what life gave us

ya. i hear ya

[frazzled]

8. So true ... just look at the cesspool of culture that surrounds us and that we celebrate

(In general). Crappy television and movies, sports heroes celebrated beyond their real achievements, gossip and sexually tinged inuendo pervading everything.

We've never been a country for public intellectuals like, say, France. Did anyone besides a small cultural elite know who Susan Sontag was? Thinkers of her ilk are routinely idolized in other countries.

I remember being in France once and we turned on the TV in our hotel room. It was the country's most popular game show, called "Des chiffres et des nombres" (letters and numbers). It's been on since 1965! It consists of two contestants being given math and word-game problems to solve. You sit there and watch as they silently scribble on paper to find the right answers to these brain teasers. We found it astounding that this show would be so popular, and couldn't imagine anyone in the US watching such a thing.

Does the general populace know anything about our famous artists and musicians? I doubt it, but they know plenty about Britney.

I felt lucky to raise my kids in a literate city like Minneapolis. Members of the symphony orchestra did marvelous three-month residencies in the public schools. I'll never forget the heartbreaking and amusing production of the Triumphal March from Aida the kids put on at the end of it. There was (and still is) a phenomenal Children's Theater, and art and music were heavily emphasized in the schools. There were children's programs at the art museums, the Center for Book Arts, the History Center. It was the general culture of the city that permeated the schools, and was brought to kids who otherwise would not have been exposed in their daily lives.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. And you were lucky indeed

and that is a small plus to local control or the general mediocrity would seep in.

But at this point I have concluded we celebrate mediocrity.

[Echo In Light]

15. If you sell shit & call it gold long enough, over time people haven't a basis for comparison

... and will buy into the dominant belief system simply out of a sense of familiarity

[blueworld]

10. I think it's a direct result of the corporatization of America as well

College was a goal, yes to broaden our horizons, to introduce us to science, math & philosophy that couldn't be covered in lower grades...perhaps because we needed a more mature perspective or perhaps because of funding. There were many more courses available to help familiarize students with other countries, other cultures, other histories, and of course a huge variety of arts, music etc.

College was certainly more affordable. In NJ there was a $500.00 state scholarship available to lower or lower-middle income kids, based on grades & the financial application. It covered 4 years of tuition at Rutgers, minus some books & fees.

And then came St. Reagan, the focus on the stock-market & economy & the culture changed drastically. Employees were no longer assets, but rather liabilities. Students didn't need courses other than those that would teach them to be great employees & possibly executives. Which ended up being necessary since the cost of education skyrocketed, student loans crippled people for years, and parents were mortgaging homes...

Everything is an interconnected web, so there are many other reasons & contributing factors, BUT it was St. Reagan & the GOP Conservatives who changed the dialogue, the business ethic & every law they could wrap their warty claws around, while reaping obscene amounts of cash from energy & stocks. IMO, of course.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. And reagan and the rest was just part of the cultural trrends

this is the way it is... our attitudes are much longer than just Reagan.

He just went back to what is the cultural norm, sadly.

[blueworld]

21. Well, I may not understand what you mean by "cultural trends" then

My point was that education was a vital part of our culture before the Reagan years.

[blueworld]

22. Nevermind - I've read your other comments & now understand your point

I completely disagree, but whatevah:)

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. I base my views on the work of cultural, historians

you may want to look at Hofstader and Jacoby's work.

[blueworld]

24. Do they mention that Einstein was here working 20 yrs before Sputnik?

There was a huge influx of immigrants early in the twentieth century, that wanted their children to have the quality-of-life available in the U.S. They prized education as the best means to achieve in this "Land of Opportunity" and sacrificed accordingly. Intellectual ability was admired in the press, in media and in business.

Technology grew at a nearly unprecedented pace during these same decades because of science & math & research. All of it based on education.

Quality people still want quality education.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. And the norm of US history tells you that this period

was highly unusual, shall we say out of the historic norm...

Also it was confined to very specific regions of the country that are more open to quality education and have been as a historic norm.

I again highly recommend both Hofstader and Jacoby.

[blueworld]

34. Sorry - we must agree to disagree. Best wishes. n/t

[misanthrope]

39. Intellectual ability in America has mainly been valued as...

...a pathway to wealth, power and fame. Other than those pragmatic applications, the general culture doesn't care. Refinement of humanity for its own sake is considered aberrant.

[misanthrope]

38. College is viewed more as a trade school now...

...The education is secondary to the degree paving the way to hopefully more earning power. Many students don't care what, or if, they learn. They just want a better job.

To me, that's a violation of the primary function of a university.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Worst than trade school

it is seen as the equivalent of High School.

Hell one of my nieces, by the time she graduates, she will be a very good doctor... but her undergraduate education is not including silly shit like oh philosophy or history... since her program is ahem very demanding... and it is... but I'd make her take a course in Ethics... but that's just me.

[Cleita]

17. Funny how other countries manage to educate their children in public

schools and turn out superiorly educated citizens who often speak two or more languages. I knew some girls who were from various parts of Scandanavia. They all spoke excellent English, which they learned in school, and were well able to hold their own in discussions about what was going on in any part of the world that was in the news. They all attended public school in their respective countries and many of them were going on to the university when they returned home also paid for by their governments. When I went to work at my first full time job in 1960, there were several secretaries in the company I worked at from Germany. This was still somewhat post war so these women were here looking for a better life. They had English and office skills that were superior to many of the Americans. We hated them at the time because they worked their asses off making the rest of us look bad. :rofl: They had managed somehow to get a good education in a country that was in ruins from the Nazis and war. I believe education in postwar Germany was also public.

We can do it but we have to start looking at school as a place of learning, not a free baby sitter, not a social club for kids, but a place where education comes first and everything else is secondary.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. We were ahem having the "discussion" on the

varsity programs in colleges and universities in this country.

Mind you I know the fraud they are for the kids, I mean like I saw one from the inside and shit. But here you have brother and sister in law, and niece talking about the opportunities these programs are fer them kids... let the hilarity ensue.

If they were like I don't know the varsity programs in I don't know our southern neighbor, or for that matter the one to the North of us... or for that matter most track and field, then they'd have a case... alas they are not. They are the triple A programs for the NFL, and I am sick and tired of that. Alas that is part of the problem... and the money alumni give to "winning" programs.

Oh and don't get me wrong, a very small percentage of those kids do take advantage and get a good education while playing. An even smaller percentage get the education AND the NFL career.... but I can count them with the fingers of ONE hand in each generation. Hell, I KNEW one of those kids... and he was rare as hell. In my view, not that this is going to happen... those programs should be the first to be axed in these times.

[Fumesucker]

19. Don't smart off to us..

You wiseacre..

:evilgrin:

[Echo In Light]

28. "Never underestimate the cowardice & servitude of intellectuals" Noam Chomsky

:evilgrin:

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Oh and that is on both sides of the ahem political divide

by the way.

[Echo In Light]

30. lol yes...I just love how 'Chomsky' it is; harsh condemnation of his own ilk, so to speak

[anonymous171]

25. Intellectuals are tools of the elite. I refuse to worship them like a lot of other leftists do.

Fuck technocracy and other forms of elitism. Just because you can afford a nice education does not make you better than anyone else.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. And thanks for the abject example of the historic

anti intellectual norm in the US.

By the way... have you forgotten the RIGHT WING intellectual class, or is your vitriol only directed at them "liberal" furiegners?

[anonymous171]

31. I mean all intellectuals. I view intellectuals the same way I view businessmen

Worthless, self-interested, buckets of slime unless they prove otherwise. So far only two intellectuals (that I know of) have proven themselves to be more than tools of the establishment: Howard Zinn (RIP) and Noam Chomsky. Basically, if intellectuals aren't speaking out against power on a regular basis, they are fucking worthless (and no, whining about the racism of the white working class does not constitute "speaking out against power.")

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. I see do you include in this school teachers

doctors, engineers, et al?

Or just the slime that talk big ideas and help the culture advance? I mean like oh I don't know Gramsci? (Speaking of people who took on the state), or for that matter Plato, another idiot who took poison for taking on the state. Perhaps I should offer Lenin, or for that matter a few others who have led small revolutions. Oh wait, that would include the ahem founding fathers.

Not all intellectuals, who you despise, sit on their hunches and just do nothing. In fact, a good number of them actually take on the state... whoever the state might be. Just that in the US their accomplishments or lack off are not really published. Hell, one of my history professors, a WHITE MAN in the SOUTH helped organize marches during the civil rights era.

As I said, thanks for offering an abject example of the historic norm in the US. What you have is a complete distrust of egg heads. After all they are educated and such and common folks have a better idea of how the world works. I really thank you for the example. I knew that sooner or later we would have that in the World Wide Web.

By the way, you fit the common historic norm, and you are one of the reasons why the US has such a problem educating it's youth. After all you do despise teachers too... why should we pay them a good salary and give them the social support, not just economic, they need to do their job?

[anonymous171]

33. Lenin and the founding fathers, although technically "revolutionaries", were still elitist slime.

Both believed that anti-democratic "vanguards" (Madison called them the "men of best quality") should lead the workers/citizens rather than simply letting them lead themselves. The idea that the elite have a better grasp of the realities facing the common man and so deserve to rule over him is a very common elitist notion present on both sides of the political spectrum. It is also a notion that has absolutely no place in a democratic society.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. I guess revolutionary cadres

and the men who wrote the US Constitution, with all their failures are slime.

Thanks again for the example.

By the way... no, they are not. But the differences don't matter to people like you, after all they have no common folksy common sense...

Oh wait, I am one of those you despise. I AM an egg head, with a Masters in History, who went into fires and rescued people as a Medic... as well as crawled into collapsed buildings. But hey, I have never fought the state... (in ways that you'd never understand), or stood up on my principles (The audit was fun, NOT)

But I am one of those egg heads.

Thanks once again for the abject example. It was YOU I was speaking off in the OP.

So tell me, you hero of the people, what exactly HAVE YOU DONE?

Or rather don't. I think we will wait a while.

[ipaint]

40. Thank you.

I'm a pretty common person and this type of thread topic is insulting and oppressive. Poor people and minorities, "the uneducated" are fighting for their lives, their children's lives, their communities, their schools, their teachers, their jobs all across this country. They fight our wars. They clean the toilets, they pick up your garbage and do a thousand other menial tasks that enable the upper classes to live well.

We have a serious elite problem in this country which causes poverty and oppression. Work on getting rid of the wealth hoarding problem and the common people will be fine taking care of themselves, their families and each other.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Exactly how are educated people (as in universtiy education)

are oppressing the people?

I really want a thesis on this...

By the way, thanks for the second example of what I was talking on the OP.

By the way, protecting the schools? Exactly how? By despising those same teachers you speak off?

I forgot, teachers are the elite and part of the problem... :sarcasm:

[ipaint]

44. All that education, all that knowledge and we still live in a society that

concentrates all it's wealth at the very top. And it keeps getting worse.

In response the people who claim to be intellectuals blame those who aren't. Poverty isn't the problem, poor uneducated stupid people who don't respect the highly educated are.

Where were all the intellectuals when the public school system was torn to shreds in the last 30 years. Where were they when workers wages steadily declined and their manufacturing jobs outsourced. Where were intellectuals when the unions where busted. Where were all the highly educated during the housing bubble that brought this country to it's knees. The list is endless.

Common people aren't against university educations. Common people are against those who use their educations to protect the monied elite and berate those who, because of that protection, can't afford to get near a university, or a good job, or health care.

I'm sure you'll twist my words into a screed on me hating teachers...again. Be my guest. But here's a clue- The current massive assault on schools isn't about the common man hating teachers because they went to a university. It's about certain groups of intellectuals grabbimg and opportunity to make a buck on mass privatized education. And it's about other intellectuals allowing it happen.

And your welcome, blaming the uneducated for problems created by the monied intellectuals and the elite they gatekeep for is something I just won't do. Glad to serve as an example of what you consider to be the prime problem in this country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Actually it is you who is twisting my words

but that's ok.

It is not those with university who blame those without university for being lazy know nothings.

That is the problem, you are blaming a class of people for the attitudes of the elite... that is the ELITE who blames not just the poor people, but those same professors you despise... and yes you despise them. And why do they despise those professors? It is those professors who speak of the need for social programs to benefit the whole society. It is those profesors who speak of the issues with labor and how to improve conditions in the country. Why do you think the ELITE speaks so badly of ahem LIBERAL universities? I mean them lib'rul professors are indoctrinating our youth into ahem commie thought.

In case you have missed it, modern revolutions are actually led by middle class people, with higher expectations, who happen to have a college degree.

That is a historic reality.

Now go ahead and twist my words...

But yes, thanks for providing a second example of the ahem mistrust, fed by the elites by the way, of educated people in this country. I could use the fancy, furiegner term of what is going on here, but why bother? It is a furiegn idea anyway, therefore to be distrusted.

[ipaint]

50. Now I despise professors.

Your wrong but somehow I don't think that matters to you.

Misspelling words in order to insult is juvenile. I must of hit a nerve.

I do agree it is about class and very few of those in the upper classes regardless of education are able to resist degrading those below them in class. The condescension permeates social policy, education and discussion boards such as this.

I've lived my life in the lower working class. I have never met a person who despised teachers, professors, education, universities etc. Most have high expectations for their children regarding their education and futures. Unfortunately the system, supported by elite intellectuals, is rigged. If liberal institutions and educators are being attacked it's by the folks hiring them, giving them a paycheck, funding their retirement investments, the ceo's who fuck over lower class workers so those investments are worthwhile, the foundations and their endowments, etc.

Zinn was a professor who celebrated the lower classes, their sacrifices which many times included their lives and their achievements. Chomsky speaks to how the intellectual elite despite their good intentions have failed us. Exceptions to the rule.

Good professors can speak of the needs of the lower classes in classrooms, in books, in papers etc. until their blue in the face. It hasn't changed a thing.
Someone once told me regarding the well educated, comfortable upper classes-

What they know I can learn, what I know they can never learn.


As far as those educated middle class revolutionaries, they better hurry up. Their numbers are seriously dwindling and the upper middle class has no intention of lifting a finger.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. You hit the head of the nail

and don't even realize it.

Zinn and others can speak until they are blue in the face.

Guess what buddy, nothing WILL CHANGE until the society decides to act.

Guess what? We are on auto pilot and you are blaming a group for the ills of society. A group that has spoken in favor of positive social change, and been attacked for it.

What is sad is that YOU are repeating the talking points of the elite, which uses you like a marionet, and don't even realize it.

[misanthrope]

36. You don't need money to be intellectual...

...and a great deal of intellectuals have sacrificed potential earnings in order to work toward things more valuable to humankind as a whole.

[Mike 03]

37. Kick and Rec to the Skies. THANK YOU for this post.

I could not possibly agree more, especially that it is NOT the teachers. I owe everything that I am to my teachers.

This country does not respect or care about intelligence, knowledge, intellect. All it cares about is producing individuals who consume, will spend and make money.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. It is deeper than consumption

though that is the current incarnation of the problem.

It is a cultural imperative, and long standing with a very long trend.

This goes back to the Colonial Period, and trends like this do change, either over a VERY LONG TIME, or when something truly traumatic happens to the society. Most likely, given the length of this, your children's children will still have this discussion when they are of age.

Of course if the country should fall apart into five successor states, a few of those successor states, which historically have respected education more, will go down another route faster than other successor states where education is all but respected.

See spending rates per pupil for an idea of what regions might do if they were independent of each other. And for obvious reasons, since this is not a subject many folks round these parts like to ahem discuss, I will leave it at that.

[Trillo]

46. Not rooted as a cultural problem, though it possibly grows into one.

You wrote: "This is a cultural problem related to our distrust of "intellectuals" and egg heads and experts."

Intellectuals are associated in people's minds with schools, and remember, for about 75% of folks, that means K-12 school. Schools are more than associated in people's minds, they are actually authoritarian institutions, i.e., "compulsory" education. It is written in laws that way, and the schools have increasingly invited police to manage certain situations, further sullying their reputation.

Thus, intellectuals are associated with authoritarians.

Authoritarianism is not a behavior of all intellectuals, but clearly it is one for some.

Edited to add: My guess is that distrust of intellectuals is primarily a political and legal problem. Fix that, and culture will evolve, but it will take some time....

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Actually it is a historical and cultural problem

that goes well before the rise of mandatory schooling laws, that come from the late 19th century.

These attitudes are rooted in the Colonial period, and people like oh Emerson, writing in the 1820s, commented on them.

There were no compulsory school laws in the 1820s anywhere.

[Trillo]

48. Emerson was reportedly an educator. He ran a school, and is

reported as an "elitist". So, his viewpoint is understandable. (Edited to add:) Thoreau, on the other hand, was fired from his teaching job for refusing to use corporal punishment, something reportedly still used today in some private and public schools.

Another little factoid. It doesn't seem there was "teenage rebellion", as a psychological phenomenon, prior to compulsory education, which was generally adopted by all states somewhere around 1920 so far as I've been able to discern. I guess all the kids went off to work.

Now, we all go to school during "those" years, and nobody even thinks students are "working".

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. And as I said, the attitudes go much farther back

than oh mandatory education

That is the point.

Why in the OP I used the term LONGE DUREE. It is a French Term, used to describe very long cultural trends that last beyond a century or two. We are in one of those periods. Now I do not think the society is incapable of changing. All cycles in the end do break, but these take almost as long to change, or do so after a very dramatic change in the society. A civil war can be a precipitator, or a great economic dislocation. And no, the great recession of 2009 does not get even close to the kind of social dislocation required to do that.

[treestar]

49. Agreed. We've let ourselves get to the point where we don't

admire the person who has made intellectual efforts, just sports and such.